GM 8-Speed Automatic?

[HarleyEarl]

On August 08, 2006, GM trademarked the name '8 Speed'.

[pow]

Good.

[Sixty8panther]

2009 Chevrolet Camaro:

vee8

8 speeds

zero-70-zero in 8 sec.

8 ball shift knob

variants/ engine packages: 8

8 link IRS...

[NOS2006]

Hmm.. Does anybody else out there have an 8 speed auto in production?

[AH-HA]

Hmm.. Does anybody else out there have an 8 speed auto in production?

191152[/snapback]

Yes, Toyota with the new LS. Now the question. Is it real, is it not? For GM an 8-speed, that would be hot. :AH-HA_wink:

[NOS2006]

Ah, that's right. Why am I thinking Mercedes has one too?

But, I did spot an "ah-ha_wink" (you know.. one of these: :AH-HA_wink:) in your post.

[Sixty8panther]

How you been AH_HA?

[balthazar]

It really seems like complete technical overkill, but then again; that's obviously what dives the market.

[NOS2006]

What do you mean by that, balthazar? How is it overkill? If they can throw the 6SA into most of their main cars and have an 8SA for the Cadillacs and higher-level vehicles, why not? It'll put them a step ahead against most of the others in the industry..

[Paolino]

What do you mean by that, balthazar? How is it overkill? If they can throw the 6SA into most of their main cars and have an 8SA for the Cadillacs and higher-level vehicles, why not? It'll put them a step ahead against most of the others in the industry..

191189[/snapback]

Well, the Caddy's will have the 8speeds, while the DTS remains with a 4.

[NOS2006]

Well, the Caddy's will have the 8speeds, while the DTS remains with a 4.

191193[/snapback]

Sarcasm?

[pow]

It really seems like complete technical overkill, but then again; that's obviously what dives the market.

191185[/snapback]

According to Lexus, their 8-speed uses fewer parts than the 6-speed, so IONO.

[regfootball]

they probably made the 8 speed for Cadillacs and to sell to BMW.

[razoredge]

What ! Only an EIGHT speed? Geeze, why bother, no way in hell can we get around with only an 8 speed. I want at least 9 or Im going to buy a Toyota, why should I buy an 8 speed GM when I can get that from Toyota ?

GM................what a bunch of loosers

Edited September 9, 2006 by razoredge

[Drew Dowdell]

Don't get your hopes up... it's really just two GM 4-speeds connected at the input/output shafts....

[NOS2006]

Don't get your hopes up... it's really just two GM 4-speeds connected at the input/output shafts....

191496[/snapback]

haha

But, really, speaking of.. would an 8 speed auto have two overdrive gears? Inform me on that type of stuff.

[The O.C.]

Don't get your hopes up... it's really just two GM 4-speeds connected at the input/output shafts....

191496[/snapback]

(all this talking about input and output shafts is getting me ALL hot and bothered......)

[pow]

Oh, the H3 has this then... 4-speed auto with hi/low range.

[NOS2006]

While they're at it, hell, give us another reverse gear!

[Variance]

While they're at it, hell, give us another reverse gear!

191609[/snapback]

Why not? Mercedes does it.

[pow]

Why not? Mercedes does it.

191619[/snapback]

Hmm... I wonder if active cruise control works in reverse...

[balthazar]

What do you mean by that, balthazar? How is it overkill? If they can throw the 6SA into most of their main cars and have an 8SA for the Cadillacs and higher-level vehicles, why not? It'll put them a step ahead against most of the others in the industry.

On average, cars today have wider & flatter powerbands than ever. They also have --again, on average-- more power. Anything more than 5 speeds... maybe 6.... in a gas engined car is simply not an engineering necessity (I can see 5-6 even 7 gears in diesels, tho). A 1-2% decrease in acceleration times is not discernable without testing equipment, neither is the same gain in fuel economy. Sure, 'every little bit counts', but at what price? And if you have to be told about it (as opposed to experiencing it), is it worth it?

"A step ahead"?? This is pure perception, not reality. It's all a game of one-upmanship and there seemingly is no end. Once 2 or 3 makes have 8-speeds, someone will have to go to 9, then 10. Doubt it? We've already gone from 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 8. And it's not progress, it's just 'more'. Why should it stop now? It can't, tho I wish it would.

[FAPTurbo]

[NOS2006]

Nah, I don't see it as a neverending thing.. Look at engine sizes. We've got ways now to make 4 and 6 cylinder engines put out as much as 8 cylinders... and 8 cylinder engines putting out as much as 10+ cylinder engines with just as good, if not better, fuel efficiency. There will come a time where they'll stop, think back to x number of gears, and look at improving that to be as good or better than x + 2 number of gears.

[Variance]

Infinite gears > *

CVTs are becoming more and more advanced and durable these days. I wouldn't be suprised to see them eventually replace coventional geared automatic transmissions.

[balthazar]

Engines are world's more complex and maleable than transmissions. Short of an infinitly-variable trans, there's no way to achieve more gear ratios without more gears.

You think everyone is suddenly just going to stop at 8?? You think mercedes is going to be fine & dandy when hyundais' also have 8-speeds? I strongly doubt it.

[PurdueGuy]

This is pure perception, not reality.

191627[/snapback]

Welcome to marketing, 101. If the customer's perception is that more gears is better, and to a degree that it makes a difference in their purchasing decision, then that's what matters - not whether or not those gears actually make any discernable difference in their vehicle.

I 99% agree that from a mechanical/design standpoint, it's pointless, but many people out there would get a tingly feeling telling their friends that they have an 8-speed tranny, and so it might be worth it to offer it if it means sales (especially high-margin sales, as an 8-speed would definately, IMO, be a "luxury" item...)

[regfootball]

(all this talking about input and output shafts is getting me ALL hot and bothered......)

191504[/snapback]

almost a reglike comment there

[regfootball]

Infinite gears > *

CVTs are becoming more and more advanced and durable these days. I wouldn't be suprised to see them eventually replace coventional geared automatic transmissions.

191634[/snapback]

bingo

maxima, altima, CVT for 07. its just the beginning

[balthazar]

Buick: CVT 1948-1964.

[Sixty8panther]

If I may... (answer NOS's ? to Balthazar)

Six speeds is about as much as anyone in the real world

will require on a street legal car in real world conditions.

Anything more and you're adding unnecessary weight &

complexity not to mention exasperating maintenance

problems & frequency.

The only vehicles that really NEED 12 speeds are trucks

that need to do some heavy duty towing and bicycles.

[Camino LS6]

While they're at it, hell, give us another reverse gear!

191609[/snapback]

Actually, the Allison in my Silverado could use another reverse gear. It is insanely low.

[razoredge]

Like Purdue has implied, its simply marketing to the one more is better crowd. The manufacturers are playing keep up with or beat the Jones and so are the car buyers. I always thought the old five speed standards were great for powerband ultilization. You have a 4 speed with an overdrive. Then the automatics became a 3 speed with an overdrive, marketed as a 4sp auto. They all always used the powerband quite well. Modern engine claims indicate improved torque and horsepower curves, yet for some reason we need transmissions that only allow the RPM's to drop 300 between shifts. I seriously doubt any gains from a 5 speed to a 7 speed. Mercedes even indicated so in their initial promotional for the 7 speed. Claiming only smoother shifts. I wish I had saved a file of the artical so I could use it on these days.

Ive never heard anyone complain about unsmooth shifts in any of GM's 4's, or their old 3's for that matter. In fact they are more often critized for slow, sloppy transition and lack of firm dedication to the next gear. Thus the reason so many performance people have created such a great aftermarket for "shift kits".

The only gains I see from the 6 speed in our G6 is more excercize.

Heavy diesel single unit trucks typically have 8, 9 or 10 speeds. They weight around 32,000 lbs empty and 74,000 loaded with engines that redline at 2000 rpm's and have a powerband of only 800 RPMs..........it makes since for this application...........not for automotive transportation.

But we can see who jumps up and down for extre car gears...............

I want my

I want my

I want my 24 speed

[2005 EquinoxLS]

The shifts in the '81 Bonneville can sometimes be a bit rough but I was told its normal. The rebuild helped but it still does it. I have to agree though that there isnt really a need for more than 6 speeds. Any more and you might as well go to a CVT.

[ddp127]

Dangit...when I had the truck I wished I had a 7th gear in my ZF. Oh crap we're talking automatics here...oops

Would've been a lot nicer on the highway. 75 mph at right around 2400-2500 rpm was just too much.

Edited October 2, 2006 by ddp127

[The O.C.]

If I may... (answer NOS's ? to Balthazar)

Six speeds is about as much as anyone in the real world

will require on a street legal car in real world conditions.

Anything more and you're adding unnecessary weight &

complexity not to mention exasperating maintenance

problems & frequency.

The only vehicles that really NEED 12 speeds are trucks

that need to do some heavy duty towing and bicycles.

191735[/snapback]

<groan>

Have any of you dissenters spent any amount of time in a car with a modern 6- or 7-speed automatic?

I don't know how many speeds in a tranny are optimal....but as many of us have TRIED to point out before.....a 6- or 7-speed tranny gives more ratios to better fit the driving conditions facing the powertrain.

An easy example is the potential chasm that occurs in many 4-speed trannys when shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear......1st and 2nd are relatively short for off-the-line acceleration....leaving 3rd and 4th gear higher for better economy....leaving a drop-off in power and response in between.

There's more ratios.....and therefore more of an opportunity for the transmission to be in an optimal gear for performance AND fuel economy.

I've lived with 6-speeds in BMWs (X5) and a 7-speed in the S500 we used to have. They are quite intelligent, efficient, and pleasurable to drive. Most of the 6- and 7-speeds don't have to go through each gear upon acceleration and deceleration....they are designed to skip gears to arrive upon the appropriate ratio for the driving conditions.....helping reduce the amount of hunting between gears that might otherwise occur.

Simply put, to GM has been behind the curve for quite awhile on this front. They are making headway.....but let's not try to SLAM a noticeable improvement in design and technology in transmissions just because GM can't seem to get their act together quickly enough....

[ToniCipriani]

Like Purdue has implied, its simply marketing to the one more is better crowd. The manufacturers are playing keep up with or beat the Jones and so are the car buyers. I always thought the old five speed standards were great for powerband ultilization. You have a 4 speed with an overdrive. Then the automatics became a 3 speed with an overdrive, marketed as a 4sp auto. They all always used the powerband quite well. Modern engine claims indicate improved torque and horsepower curves, yet for some reason we need transmissions that only allow the RPM's to drop 300 between shifts. I seriously doubt any gains from a 5 speed to a 7 speed. Mercedes even indicated so in their initial promotional for the 7 speed. Claiming only smoother shifts. I wish I had saved a file of the artical so I could use it on these days.

Ive never heard anyone complain about unsmooth shifts in any of GM's 4's, or their old 3's for that matter. In fact they are more often critized for slow, sloppy transition and lack of firm dedication to the next gear. Thus the reason so many performance people have created such a great aftermarket for "shift kits".

The only gains I see from the 6 speed in our G6 is more excercize.

Heavy diesel single unit trucks typically have 8, 9 or 10 speeds. They weight around 32,000 lbs empty and 74,000 loaded with engines that redline at 2000 rpm's and have a powerband of only 800 RPMs..........it makes since for this application...........not for automotive transportation.

But we can see who jumps up and down for extre car gears...............

I want my

I want my

I want my 24 speed

191843[/snapback]

If you need that many gears... Shimano can set you up with one.

Edited October 3, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[Flybrian]

Tell me, though, that an 8-speed released a year or so after Mercedes' 7-speed isn't just a dick-measuring contest...

[Intrepidation]

GM's press conference when they release it will feature the song "Cigaro"

[razoredge]

<groan>

Have any of you dissenters spent any amount of time in a car with a modern 6- or 7-speed automatic?

I don't know how many speeds in a tranny are optimal....but as many of us have TRIED to point out before.....a 6- or 7-speed tranny gives more ratios to better fit the driving conditions facing the powertrain.

An easy example is the potential chasm that occurs in many 4-speed trannys when shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear......1st and 2nd are relatively short for off-the-line acceleration....leaving 3rd and 4th gear higher for better economy....leaving a drop-off in power and response in between.

There's more ratios.....and therefore more of an opportunity for the transmission to be in an optimal gear for performance AND fuel economy.

I've lived with 6-speeds in BMWs (X5) and a 7-speed in the S500 we used to have.  They are quite intelligent, efficient, and pleasurable to drive.  Most of the 6- and 7-speeds don't have to go through each gear upon acceleration and deceleration....they are designed to skip gears to arrive upon the appropriate ratio for the driving conditions.....helping reduce the amount of hunting between gears that might otherwise occur.

Simply put, to        GM has been behind the curve for quite awhile on this front.  They are making headway.....but let's not try to SLAM a noticeable improvement in design and technology in transmissions just because GM can't seem to get their act together quickly enough....

200675[/snapback]

<chuckle>

well with the THM and torque converters with lockup and engines that actually had torque in normal driving RPM range, 4sp always worked really great. Now take your narrow band weezy lathagric DOHC's, I guess you would really need a few extra gears to keep it up around 4000 for climbing hills and whatnot.

GM has had the best automatics on the market forever, they just didnt have enough glitter, because they didnt need it. Cant complain about them spending the money on a must have tranny though, its not like they have any better places to spend it.........................

It will actually be a good thing for little four cylinder fuel economy cars with the ever increasing load your average car has become. Wonder how much longer before we hit the 5000 lb mark again? Then well need 13 speeds and 6 valves per cylinder

Tell me, though, that an 8-speed released a year or so after Mercedes' 7-speed isn't just a dick-measuring contest...

No ! Its a measuring contest for Dicks............... <chuckle>

[pow]

<chuckle>

well with the THM and torque converters with lockup and engines that actually had torque in normal driving RPM range, 4sp always worked really great. Now take your narrow band weezy lathagric DOHC's, I guess you would really need a few extra gears to keep it up around 4000 for climbing hills and whatnot.

GM has had the best automatics on the market forever, they just didnt have enough glitter, because they didnt need it. Cant complain about them spending the money on a must have tranny though, its not like they have any better places to spend it.........................

It will actually be a good thing for little four cylinder fuel economy cars with the ever increasing load your average car has become. Wonder how much longer before we hit the 5000 lb mark again? Then well need 13 speeds and 6 valves per cylinder

No ! Its a measuring contest for Dicks............... <chuckle>

201006[/snapback]

Yeah... X5s (324 lb-ft @ 3600 rpm) and S500s (339 lb-ft @ 2700 rpm) have narrow band weezy lethargic DOHCs...

[loki]

Yeah... X5s (324 lb-ft @ 3600 rpm) and S500s (339 lb-ft @ 2700 rpm) have narrow band weezy lethargic DOHCs...

201059[/snapback]

just guessing he meant more of the smaller v6's and I4's.... weezy and lethargic haven't described well tuned 6's or v8's in prolly 15 years, no matter if they're ohv or ohc

[razoredge]

Yeah... X5s (324 lb-ft @ 3600 rpm) and S500s (339 lb-ft @ 2700 rpm) have narrow band weezy lethargic DOHCs...

201059[/snapback]

Whats an X5 & S500, I assume an S500 is Mercedes or is it a sound alike Lexus ? ? If so its a big engine..........no ?

even so I bet they have nothing at 1200. In normal driving our 3800's never excede 2000-2200 rpm. Our 3900 with the 6stick I usually shift at 3000 and yes, that engine is not impressive, even above 3000 but hey, at least they got rid of the 3800 and added a 6 speed..............right ?

And by the way the lb ft means little if HP doesnt come on until 4000+-. Power curves are more than numbers, they are ranges and big numbers at one end mean little, unless your running laps at the track, or an auto magazine writer trying to impress your cronin. Fortunantly people on the roadway system do not drive like this.

[balthazar]

...but as many of us have TRIED to point out before.....a 6- or 7-speed tranny gives more ratios to better fit the driving conditions facing the powertrain.

NOT ALWAYS! GM's Allison 6-spd is a double overdrive unit that never sees 6th gear except on level interstates. 1st thru 5th are the same ratios as the older 5-spd Allison. Some other mega-gears autos are also double overdrives, yet we still read comments like 'why does it still have a 5-spd instead of a 6-spd?!?!?'

Big gear counts may get some all sweaty & squirmy with lust, but the cold reality outside of press-releases is that often it's an intangible for those living outside of Nevada.

Edited October 5, 2006 by balthazar

[The O.C.]

Whats an X5 & S500, I assume an S500 is Mercedes or is it a sound alike Lexus ? ? If so its a big engine..........no ?

even so I bet they have nothing at 1200. In normal driving our 3800's never excede 2000-2200 rpm. Our 3900 with the 6stick I usually shift at 3000 and yes, that engine is not impressive, even above 3000 but hey, at least they got rid of the 3800 and added a 6 speed..............right ?

And by the way the lb ft means little if HP doesnt come on until 4000+-. Power curves are more than numbers, they are ranges and big numbers at one end mean little, unless your running laps at the track, or an auto magazine writer trying to impress your cronin. Fortunantly people on the roadway system do not drive like this.

201430[/snapback]

Uh......we have an '06 X5 right now.....and it's a small V8, 4.4 litres.....and it's an absolute powerhouse right off the line.

But you know what else? It rips to redline very quickly as well.

Wow a great idea! Strong off-the-line torque and great power all the way to redline.....!

I once raced a new Silverado SS up an entrance ramp onto the freeway from a dead stop at the light. Even right off the line (where the "big" Silverado's V8 "should" have had an advantage) we were neck-and-neck until I backed off at 90mph.

Edited October 6, 2006 by The O.C.

[balthazar]

Which must mean the "big" Silverado V-8 is likewise has 'strong off-the-line torque and great power all the way to redline.....!', especially considering the SS's undoubted weight penalty. I would think that was impossible, what with pushrods and an IBC and all.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Uh......we have an '06 X5 right now.....and it's a small V8, 4.4 litres.....and it's an absolute powerhouse right off the line.

But you know what else?  It rips to redline very quickly as well.

Wow a great idea!  Strong off-the-line torque and great power all the way to redline.....!

I once raced a new Silverado SS up an entrance ramp onto the freeway from a dead stop at the light.  Even right off the line (where the "big" Silverado's V8 "should" have had an advantage) we were neck-and-neck until I backed off at 90mph.

202127[/snapback]

i almost once ran an 05 x5 into a parked car. he snuck up on the right side of me at a light and thought hed just blow by me when it changed. well let me tell you my 92 bonneville with the series 1 3800 told him otherwise. he kinda gave me the props when i looked over.

i dont know what that proves, if anything but anything more than 5, maybe 6

isnt all that necessary.

what i want to see is actual data and facts that demonstrate the improvements in performance, or the better mpg or something. im sure the info is out there.

personally, i think its a waste of resources and development.

besides they could have just taken the name so somene else wil have to name it

something that sounds a little more stupid. or less meaningful.

[razoredge]

So whats an X5 ?

L67 "rips to redline" quick too, am I supposed to be impressed, hell the 3900 rips to redline quick in 1st and 2nd.

Didnt know a "Silverado" was supposed to even keep up with what Im assuming is a performance car.............imagine that !

Ive been crying for small displacement DOHC V8 engines for GMs for quite some time now. Then I'll never have to hear about V6 this and thats again. Funny how an expert like yourself never chimed in ? Well, I suppose my lack of popularity forbids............

Is the "absolute powerhouse off the line" one of those low final drive ratio, close ratio multi speed tranny cars ? If Im not mistaken that would actually prove my point, they kinda need this extra edge, Anyone that pays attention will alway notice a low final ratio on the OHC engines compared to the OHV engines.........you'll never hear them refer to it however. I am glad to see DOHC is finally getting more comparable mileage these days...HP/gallon ratio, if positive, negates lower final drive ratio needed to get performance out of DOHC engines. Efficiency is all that matters in this department.

Mercedes very own press release on their 7 speed clearly stated that no mileage increases were noticed and a very minimal increase in acceleration. They pressed smoothness of shifts due to closer ratios are the real benefit. I so wish I had put that in a file because Ill be damned if I can find it now.

Balthazar is absolutely correct about many 6 speeds only being two overdrives leaving 6th as something you'll only use on interstates at higher speed. That is still a positive as so many suburbanites & rurals working in downtowns do travel as certain amount of interstate each and every work day. I know our G6 rarely sees 6th but thats hilly rural driving.

Im not against the 6 speed, I am against all the negitives about the 4 like its a problem when we clearly know it is not. An 8 speed is what I drive day in and day out and sometimes I so wish I had an Allison automatic like the Concrete trucks use. 8 speed on a car is just overkill, these extra gears have got to add weight and manufacturering expence. Its just so unfortunant that this "more gear ratios" race had to begin. Seems like theres better fish to fry and GM engineering and plant tooling does not need more distractions.

Edited October 7, 2006 by razoredge

[razoredge]

Wow a great idea! Strong off-the-line torque and great power all the way to redline.....!

yea, what a novel idea......something GM's OHV engines have always had

it is good to see DOHC finally comming around, about time. To bad they need low finals and extre gears to prove it............

[Drew Dowdell]

Give me 400ft/lbs of torque at 1700rpm with a 2-speed powerglide in a 3,300lbs car and I'll show you ripping to redline.