MIDSIZE SEDANS

[Croc]

Sebring is pretty cheap. But it LOOKS nice. If only Chryslers good interior design were matched by equally good materials...

empowah, you didn't like the AURA? I came away pretty impressed with it, though I still don't like the plood.

[pow]

empowah, you didn't like the AURA?  I came away pretty impressed with it, though I still don't like the plood.

223202[/snapback]

I didn't find it very appealing. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with it, but certain small details annoyed me. It's just so unbelievably ho-hum.

I'd buy a Fusion SEL I4 5M over an AURA XE.

Edited December 3, 2006 by empowah

[Croc]

It's just so unbelievably ho-hum.

I'd buy a Fusion SEL I4 5M over an AURA XE.

223346[/snapback]

I can agree with that. I was impressed by the interior quality (minus the plood). Also, I'm hoping the problem was just with the show car I sat in, but the sliding cupholder cover looks slick when you open it and it automatically retracts, but it wouldn't close again without some pretty awkward adjusting of the latch!

[pow]

BTW, I was pleasantly surprised by the Five-Hundred. With black leather upholstery, it wasn't all that bad, and there was tons of space and a nice airy feeling. It doesn't pretend to be stylish like the AURA; it's just a good, proper family sedan that seems solidly assembled. I found its interior less depressing than the AURA's.

[occupant]

I wonder how much differently this forum's members would rate the Suzuki Verona if it were being sold here in the US as it is in Canada...as a CHEVROLET Epica...

I'd consider one. After it's a decade old and selling for $1500 or less...

Edited December 9, 2006 by occupant

[regfootball]

BTW, I was pleasantly surprised by the Five-Hundred. With black leather upholstery, it wasn't all that bad, and there was tons of space and a nice airy feeling. It doesn't pretend to be stylish like the AURA; it's just a good, proper family sedan that seems solidly assembled. I found its interior less depressing than the AURA's.

223564[/snapback]

at times i wish i had gotten a black interior instead of tan on my 500.

tons of space and airy is what i like about it. the leather is ok but they could have ponied up for better plastics.

i do like the Aura interior, however, it does seem like it is trying hard. If you look at e class interior pics vs. the aura interior pics side by side you kind of see GM's design concept for the Aura interior.

[MyerShift]

Have you tried sitting in one? Its interior is easily worst-in-class. Everything about it screams cheap.

223190[/snapback]

Duh, I've sat in one. The only way a person couldn't "try" to sit in one is if someone were too damn fat to. Not everything screams cheap. The stereo head unit and climate control knobs seemed niced. The design is fantastic, but the materials do need improving. Something along the lines of the soft plastice that's in the 300 would be nice. Worst in class materials, maybe. But at least its design is unique, and there are enough soft points to prevent chafing or bruising. Unless of course, one plans on slamming his or her head on the door or dash panels where there happens to be a lack of soft touch material. Then I would feel no pity.

[bcs296]

Legacy GT

Altima

Mazda 6

Accord

Everything else is a wash to me.

Notice what all 4 of those have in common: can be had with a decently powerful engine mated to a standard tranny.

I love the NG Malibu's interior, and from what I've seen, the exterior is sharp as well. I sure wouldn't mind a Malibu SS with a 6 speed. Too bad that will never happen.

Edited December 12, 2006 by bcs296

[MyerShift]

What is it with domestic manufacturers not offering manual transmissions in most of their products?

If the others can do it, then America can do it better.

[Robert Hall]

What is it with domestic manufacturers not offering manual transmissions in most of their products?

If the others can do it, then America can do it better.

Most Americans don't/can't drive a manual transmission, that's why so few are offered.

[regfootball]

Most Americans don't/can't drive a manual transmission, that's why so few are offered.

I love driving sticks, but its often tough to buy one.

I think it would still behoove GM and Ford etc. to offer at least one of each of the following.....and a competent suspension and handling pkg for a good price

mid sized front drive sedan with high powered six and manual tranny

mid sized front drive basic sedan with decent road manners and four cylinder / stick

compact performance sedan and coupe with a stick

basic compact sedan and coupe with a stick

one or two rear drive performance sedan / coupes (not camaros)

you could argue right now that GM/Ford in combo does have a lot of this covered already. I would say they both are missing on a good midsize sedan with DOHC motor and 6 speed. The G6 GTP has the pushrod motor and a klunky shifter supposedly. Plus the car could stand to be a hare bigger and nicer.

Seeing the pics of the new Malibu, I would enjoy being able to have one with the 3.6 and a stick, if they ever offer one.

I actually would totally dig an AWD v8 version of my 500 in black, lowered an inch or so, with a 6 speed manual. Or a 310hp direct injection duratec front wheel drive version with a 6 speed manual.

I think Chrylser ought to make a stick version of the 300.....a v6, twin turbo six.

Edited December 31, 2006 by regfootball

[Paolino]

Reg... I wouldn't mind a stick, but in areas like Long Island/NYC, you'd probably get exhausted using one. Rush hour traffic would just make it that much more frustrating to have to operate another pedal and go in and out first and second... accompanied by the frequent panic stops on the LIE you'd have to endure.

It'd be nice to save a little money by buying a stick, get a bit better fuel economy, but in my area, it wouldn't pay. I had a friend who bought a 99 Eclipse Turbo, with a manual... LOVED IT. He loved driving that thing--but when it came time to commuting in and out of Staten Island to NJ every day, he was finding it tiring to be stuck in dead-stop traffic (where you can shift into Park). My friend who bought a 2005 Corolla LE (I tried people, I tried), could not even find one in stick... he was forced to take an auto... his first automatic since his Buick Skylark back in the 80's.

[The O.C.]

I just had a brand-new Fusion SE L4 as a rental (7 miles on it when I got it) and what a fabulous little cheap midsize sedan.

I loved it.

Great interior fit-and-finish and material quality, attractive exterior, smooth and responsive powertrain, and impressive content for a "base" model rental (steering-wheel radio controls, foglights, power driver's seat, full intrumentation, 6-disc CD changer, alloy wheels.

[The O.C.]

Reg... I wouldn't mind a stick, but in areas like Long Island/NYC, you'd probably get exhausted using one. Rush hour traffic would just make it that much more frustrating to have to operate another pedal and go in and out first and second... accompanied by the frequent panic stops on the LIE you'd have to endure.

It'd be nice to save a little money by buying a stick, get a bit better fuel economy, but in my area, it wouldn't pay. I had a friend who bought a 99 Eclipse Turbo, with a manual... LOVED IT. He loved driving that thing--but when it came time to commuting in and out of Staten Island to NJ every day, he was finding it tiring to be stuck in dead-stop traffic (where you can shift into Park). My friend who bought a 2005 Corolla LE (I tried people, I tried), could not even find one in stick... he was forced to take an auto... his first automatic since his Buick Skylark back in the 80's.

Well, you can't get worse traffic than you do in southern California.......and I still love my two stick-shift cars.

That being said, I don't do it every day in a commute....

I would expect that more mainstream consumers (I'm a stick-shift enthusiast) would rather have the auto if they do a bumper-to-bumper commute every day.

[Satty]

I just had a brand-new Fusion SE L4 as a rental (7 miles on it when I got it) and what a fabulous little cheap midsize sedan.

I loved it.

Great interior fit-and-finish and material quality, attractive exterior, smooth and responsive powertrain, and impressive content for a "base" model rental (steering-wheel radio controls, foglights, power driver's seat, full intrumentation, 6-disc CD changer, alloy wheels.

Stepping up to an SE would have solved many of my quibbles, the 6 disc doesn't have as many issues as the single disc in the S. I just want to know why mine has required a quart of oil every 5000 miles.

[A Horse With No Name]

Legacy GT

Altima

Mazda 6

Accord

Everything else is a wash to me.

Notice what all 4 of those have in common: can be had with a decently powerful engine mated to a standard tranny.

I love the NG Malibu's interior, and from what I've seen, the exterior is sharp as well. I sure wouldn't mind a Malibu SS with a 6 speed. Too bad that will never happen.

I've been lurking here for quite awhile and I enjoy all of your comments. This is a great board!

Personally the above would be my list, but I'd add the G6. I prefer manual tranny but On-Star would be a big consideration for my wife who would be driving it long distances.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I just had a brand-new Fusion SE L4 as a rental (7 miles on it when I got it) and what a fabulous little cheap midsize sedan.

I loved it.

Great interior fit-and-finish and material quality, attractive exterior, smooth and responsive powertrain, and impressive content for a "base" model rental (steering-wheel radio controls, foglights, power driver's seat, full intrumentation, 6-disc CD changer, alloy wheels.

Ford is doing more right than most people give them credit for. While I wouldn't buy a Fusion I do lust after the departed SVT Focus.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Reg... I wouldn't mind a stick, but in areas like Long Island/NYC, you'd probably get exhausted using one. Rush hour traffic would just make it that much more frustrating to have to operate another pedal and go in and out first and second... accompanied by the frequent panic stops on the LIE you'd have to endure.

It'd be nice to save a little money by buying a stick, get a bit better fuel economy, but in my area, it wouldn't pay. I had a friend who bought a 99 Eclipse Turbo, with a manual... LOVED IT. He loved driving that thing--but when it came time to commuting in and out of Staten Island to NJ every day, he was finding it tiring to be stuck in dead-stop traffic (where you can shift into Park). My friend who bought a 2005 Corolla LE (I tried people, I tried), could not even find one in stick... he was forced to take an auto... his first automatic since his Buick Skylark back in the 80's.

Actually I lived for a year in Atlanta, which is just about as bad for traffic. I don't know why but I prefer a stick for stop and go driving. Must just be odd.

Chris

[The O.C.]

Ford is doing more right than most people give them credit for. While I wouldn't buy a Fusion I do lust after the departed SVT Focus.

Chris

I had one!

I bought a 2002 Ford SVT Focus......bright red with the black (with red inserts) interior.

They had massive rebates and stuff......the MSRP was $19,500 at the time.....and I got it for like $15,800 (!). I sold it a year later for $17,000 (!!!) to a "fanatic" that flew down from Seattle to buy it off of me....

Best car purchase ever.....(from a money standpoint.)

I LOVED the SVT.....it drove like a little BMW....very solid chassis, with a sweet and tight powertrain (engine, clutch, shifter.) Plus, the audiophile system in that car with the gonzo subwoofer in back really rocked too.....it truly felt like I was driving a very high-quality little car. I even liked the oddball "curvy-shaped" dash that those first gen Focus' had....

To this day, I still miss that car.....

[regfootball]

Here's how I would rank everything after last weeks auto show. Of course, this is without driving all of them. I've driven many of them. *=driven it

1. Aura

2. Milan

2. Altima

4. Fusion*

4. Galant*

4. Impala*

4. Passat 2.0*

8. Mazda6*

8. Grand Prix*

10. CAMLEE

10. Avenger

10. Accord

10. LaCrosse

14. Malibu*

15. G6

16. Sebring

17. Legacy

18. Sonata

19. Optima

List can change daily.

Edited March 24, 2007 by regfootball

[Flybrian]

What happened to the Chery?

[Satty]

He popped it?

[VenSeattle]

I'm seeing more and more Auras on the road (both XEs & XRs.) They really stand out and are growing on me.

6-sp, LED taillights, LED illuminated interior, V6, etc... very nice touches for a $20k-$25k car.

[regfootball]

He popped it?

hmm, i DID have some cherry cobbler for dinner.

[Paolino]

This is how I would rank everything as of right now... in 2008, this list changes a bit because the Malibu moves WAY up, and the LaCrosse will likely move above the Camry.

1. Aura

2. Accord

3. Milan

4. Fusion

5. Altima

6. Impala

7. Mazda6

8. Camry

9. LaCrosse

10. G6

11. Malibu

12. Sebring

[JT64]

1. Altima

2. Passat

3. Mazdaspeed6

4. Legacy

5. Mazda6 hatchback

6. Sebring

7. no way.

[Duncan]

Most Americans don't/can't drive a manual transmission, that's why so few are offered.

Then most Americans need better driver-training courses. There's no excuse for that, and it's honestly not that difficult.

Clutch in, shift gears, rev up, clutch out. Took me all of five minutes to explain that to a friend of mine, and she's had no problems since.

Also, why is it that the only place I ever see new cars equipped with stickshifts is at the auto shows? Trying to find one at a dealer "in the wild", so to speak, is much like finding a snowflake in Death Valley.

[regfootball]

there are a handful of reasons why sticks don't sell, and trust me I LOVE STICKS.

-the perception that a manual transmission only applies to a bare bones economy cars and small cars. lots of idiots think that because the chevettes and omnis they used to buy, if you couldn't afford the automatic upgrade, you got the stick with crank windows etc. a side perception of this is still that 'only furrin' manufacturers sell straight sticks'...i.e. my 1990 toyota corolla has 1.7 million miles on it and get 58 mpg and i've never had to change the oil once and its cuz it has a manual transmission'. Lots of Amerchan car fans from years ago felt a car was only a car unless is it was big and had an automatic.

-'resale value stigma'. which these is some truth to. mainly because if you have to sell your car you immediately are limiting your buyer base since 3/4 the public is too dumb to know how to drive a stick and isn't looking for one. It's sort of like trying to sell someone a betamax who is looking for a vhs player.

-probably the biggest limiting factor to stick sales is......metropolitan area traffic. people's left legs cannot endure the abuse of sitting in dead traffic with a stick. a coworker still curses not geting her mini with a stick, but the reason she got the CVT was she didn't want to sit in traffic with one. my own work commute these days is such that i could have a stick again, but change jobs and boom, you could be sitting in 1+ hour gridlock at crawl speeds every day. Tell your idiot politicans to build more roads to free up traffic and then maybe sticks will get popular. Stick drivers love real 3 pedal manual cars.

that said, manumatics with paddle shifters or DSG type dual clutch trannies may be the death knell for real stick cars, sadly. I would bet if my sister drove a GTI with DSG or something, she would abandon her love of sticks. Myself, i like to feel the engine engaging through the clutch pedal.

Edited March 31, 2007 by regfootball

[regfootball]

BTW, the Aura got a nice follow up writeup in this month's Road and Track. 5.9 0-60 (faster than Camlee) and a 14.5 1/4 mile. They praised the powertrain with glee. The match between the 3.6 and 6 speed automatic is impeccable. I may need to go drive one now! They say that the Aura redline should take care of any softness in the brakes and suspension...even if the current suspension is very comfortable. They said they even like the interior over the Accord.

I gotta admit, an Aura with paddle shifters and sub 6 second time is starting to look REAL sweet.

Edited March 31, 2007 by regfootball

[trinacriabob]

Then most Americans need better driver-training courses. There's no excuse for that, and it's honestly not that difficult.

Clutch in, shift gears, rev up, clutch out. Took me all of five minutes to explain that to a friend of mine, and she's had no problems since.

I can drive a stick but I don't want one....at all! In most conditions, it's fine.

However, have you ever come to a stop sign at the top of a hill in San Francisco where you seem to be perched at a 45 degree angle?

Have you ever had to make a quick left onto a side street from a super busy main street somewhere like Italy only to find you stalled the engine? It happened only once and I was able to restart the engine real fast...and this was as I was on my way to the airport to return the car.

No thanks. It takes only a couple of experiences like that to say "that's enough."

Edited March 31, 2007 by trinacriabob

[A Horse With No Name]

I've had a few experiences driving a stick like that, and I still prefer a stick. Actually if I never own another automatic I'll be happy.

The point is that people like me often would like to buy American but end up buying foreign because we want to shift and this is one area both Ford and G.M. fall down on.

Chris

[ponchoman49]

I would probably rank the cars as follows with a comment next to each entry:

1) Aura XR- Best looking of the bunch, awesome 3.6/6 A trans, sharp handling, roomy back seat, good price/warrenty, customer service, needs more available features and a few interior issues fixed

2) Altima 2.5 SL pkg- Fine powertrain 4 or V6, CVT, mileage, exterior appearance, features for money, front seat bottoms need more padding, some minor interior assembly gaffes

3) Accord SE V6 AT- great handling, smooth quiet engines and updated trannys, fine build quality, interior a littel dated, exterior blends in too much in a crowd, brakes need improvement

4) Milan V6 Premier- pleasant styling, capable V6, capable handling, interior room and seat comfort top notch, fit and finish good, available AWD, lacks some features of others here, could use 25 more HP and better trans response

5) Fusion SE V6- same as 4

6) Impala LT3- Front seat room, trunk space, engine power (3900), E85, price good for what you get, handles competent, front seats need more padding, no floor shift indicators or glove box light, interior rather plain, engine noise, needs 6 speed auto option, especially with SS version, no telescoping wheel

7) LaCrosse CXS- very comfortable seats, lots of features for money, exterior appearance(grille excluded), 3.6 is smooth, quiet underway, telescoping wheel available, dated 4 speed auto, some dated exterior cues, especially headlights and grille, manual seat recliners have no place in a 30K car, rear seat legroom less than others here

Mazda 6 VE- sharp handling, exterior styling good, engine power good but not as good as some others here, engine noise not well muffled on V6, interior a bit small, trunk small, lacks some features of others

9) Malibu LTZ- good value for money, decent handling, great highway MPG with 3500, decent power, some nice features like fold flat front seat, telescoping column, power pedals, warrenty, chrome pkg looks sharp, electric steering still needs work, front end appearance needs work, no rear seat armrest or overhead assist handles, no glovebox light, engine noise intrusive at times, only a 4 speed automatic

10) G6 w 3500 Sport pkg- same as 9 but add lack of interior colors in cloth trim

11) Sonota SE- warrenty, engine power(V6), 5 speed automatic shifts well, build quality generally good, looks too much like an old gen Accord, resale value poor, some interior materials questionable, interior smells like recycled waste, must get power driver seat for best comfort, lack of options, trunk smaller than some

12) Optima EX 4 cyl- decent styling that sets no new standards, features for price, mileage reasonable, warrenty, build quality, V6 lowest power of the group, questionable interior fabrics, no temp guage, interior smells like recycled garbage, small trunk, poor resale value and long term quality?

13) Galant SE- V6 spunky, interior pretty roomy, good handling, some interior bits cheap, questionable reliability, gas mileage worse than others, lack of some features, no bodyside mlds, road noise and tire thump, smaller dealer network

14) Grand Prix GT- still looks like a Pontiac, warrenty, front seat comfort, engine power good along with highway mileage, handles well, very dated powertrain, lacks some features, cramped back seat, rear seat back is hard as a park bench, headroom, engine noise, dash plastics, ergonomics, rear visibility

15) Avenger R/T- distinctive, a few neat features, 3.5 V6/6 A trans, handling(R/T), cheap interior with lots of hard plastic, cheap seat material, rock hard seats, noisy to drive, interior feels cramped, expensive when optioned up, best powertrain setup not offered on lower trim levels, rear visibility poor, trunk small

16) Sebring Limited- same as 15 but with horrendous styling added

17) Camry doesn't matter- good V6 power, very bland, generic styling, pig-like grille, no bodyside moldings, terrible shifting tranny, many consumer complaints of poor quality control, many gaps and poor fits in interior, small trunk, less headroom than before, lackluster base engine, NAV option needs work, cheap mouse fur seat fabric, ho hum handling, gas mileage in real world less than sticker, expensive in all but low level CE editions, interior squeaks and rattles

In reality, none of these cars is perfect and every one of them either lacks something I like, has uncomfortable seats, looks generic and blah, costs too much, has indifferent reliability or poor shifting transmission etc

Edited April 3, 2007 by ponchoman49

[regfootball]

based on my Aura test drive last weekend I thought I should update this.

1. Milan

1B. Galant Ralliart

1B. Altima

4. Fusion*

4. Mazda6*

4. Grand Prix*

4. Aura

4. Impala*

4. Passat 2.0*

10. CAMLEE

10. Avenger

10. Accord

10. LaCrosse

14. Malibu*

15. G6

16. Sebring

17. Legacy

18. Sonata

19. Optima

List can change daily.

Edited April 29, 2007 by regfootball

[Flybrian]

No more Chery?

[Intrepidation]

I can drive a stick but I don't want one....at all! In most conditions, it's fine.

However, have you ever come to a stop sign at the top of a hill in San Francisco where you seem to be perched at a 45 degree angle?

Have you ever had to make a quick left onto a side street from a super busy main street somewhere like Italy only to find you stalled the engine? It happened only once and I was able to restart the engine real fast...and this was as I was on my way to the airport to return the car.

No thanks. It takes only a couple of experiences like that to say "that's enough."

Wuss

I think I'd always like to own an automatic and a manual...because there are situations where I prefer automatic...but shifting is more fun...so having both would be a nice compromise.

I think the Fusion is a fantastic car held back but its lack of the new 3.5...if it gets it an a new center stack I would call it best in class...it has easily the best materials in class already.

I still like the Avenger though...I was very impressed with the R/T's performance...and the seats were great...plus it has cool features.

The NG Malibu looks really good too.

Edited April 30, 2007 by Dodgefan

[regfootball]

No more Chery?

only if they put a Torrent grille on it!

[regfootball]

Wuss

I think I'd always like to own an automatic and a manual...because there are situations where I prefer automatic...but shifting is more fun...so having both would be a nice compromise.

I think the Fusion is a fantastic car held back but its lack of the new 3.5...if it gets it an a new center stack I would call it best in class...it has easily the best materials in class already.

I still like tehr Avenger though...I was very impressed with the R/T's performance...and the seats were great...plus it has cool features.

The NG Malibu looks really good too.

[Camino LS6]

Yes to stick shift!

No to this entire segment, I wouldn't open my wallet for any of these cars.

I know, I know, that's what Joe average consumer wants - but I would never buy this sort of car.

Midsize FWD, has no appeal to me whatsoever. And it is a rare sedan that can capture my interest generally.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yes to stick shift!

No to this entire segment, I wouldn't open my wallet for any of these cars.

I know, I know, that's what Joe average consumer wants - but I would never buy this sort of car.

Midsize FWD, has no appeal to me whatsoever. And it is a rare sedan that can capture my interest generally.

My name is not Joe, it's Börger!

[Camino LS6]

Umm, does that mean that you are calling yourself "average"?

[Z-06]

6-speed Stick shift and a V-6 or a high output turbocharged 4 banger, with sport tuned suspensions. Anything that will fit this bill in the mid-size will get my money. Ideally a V-8 with a stick shift will not be a bad idea either. LOL

[Oracle of Delphi]

Umm, does that mean that you are calling yourself "average"?

No, I'm calling myself Börger.

[Bimmer325]

The models in bold are cars I've experienced firsthand, whether through actually driving or simply riding in for extended periods of time. Lists like these aren't exactly the most balanced way to go about comparing a set of cars, but here goes.

1. Mazda6- I've driven an '06 Mazda6s as well as a friend's '06 Mazdaspeed6. I'm sure my time with the Speed6 influenced my overall impression of the car, but I was impressed with the 6s I drove regardless. Exterior styling is crisp and decidedly sporty, and the interior defies that of the typical ho-hum family sedan in my opinion. The current 6 is no longer the freshest of the bunch, so I'm anxious to see where Mazda goes with its replacement.

2. Passat- I've only briefly driven the current Passat, but I've riden in a friend's on multiple occassions. I think VW dropped the ball on exterior styling in the Passat's current run, but it still manages to look and feel a cut above in comparison with other midsizers. Attention to detail is more impressive in the Passat than in many other midsizers I've experienced.

3. Legacy- The Legacy appeals to me for many of the same reasons the Mazda does.

4. Aura/Fusion

6. Accord- I've driven the current Accord V-6 on several occassions and was unimpressed each time. The interior is a strong point, but the driving experience is overrated in my experience.

7. G6- The G6's exterior styling has always appealed to me. Interior quality/design is a low point, as is the lackluster driving experience. The G6 has always struck me as an enormous leap from where it's predecessor left off, but as is often the case with GM, that simply isn't enough. I'm anxious to see what Pontiac has in store for the G6's successor.

8. Malibu- more of an appliance than even the Camry, both inside and out.

9. Impala

10. LaCrosse

11. Grand Prix- I've said enough about the W-bodies in previous posts. Simply put, I drove a Grand Prix rental for roughly a week and was thoroughly unimpressed.

Omitted for lack of experience:

Camry

Galant

Sonata

Optima

[LosAngeles]

If I was in the market for a brand new bread-and-butter intermediate piece, this is what I would gun for:

G6 (I'm a sucker for Pontiac, and I like the center stack myself)

Aura

Sebring (one man's ugly is another man's interesting)

Mazda6 fastback or wagon (the 'Speed takes premium fuel...not the business unless I was rich)

Fusion/Milan*

Legacy turbo

Accord V6 with a stick (and the Japanese Inspire front end)

Sonata

Malibu Maxx*

Optima (with a more powerful V-6)

Passat's dumb expensive, Galant and Camry just aren't my look, Avenger's too ugly (would make a nice fastback, however), too many Altimas out there. The '08 Malibu will be within the top five of my list, need to see what they do with the new Accord.

Maxima, the W-body GMs, and the D3 Ford twins are big cars to me...that's another thread.

*Really needs more than a conventional automatic.

Now about the stick issue.

have you ever come to a stop sign at the top of a hill in San Francisco where you seem to be perched at a 45 degree angle?

I was on Powell St. in an Integra. Thoroughly frightening. Coming to the end of La Cienega at Sunset is similar, but I had a torquier Supra and more experience.

Next new car will be a stick if it makes sense with the overall package.

[derrado]

[2007]

1. Aura

2. Altima

3. Legacy

4. Fusion

5. Mazda6

6. Camry

7. Accord

8. G6

9. Optima

10. Milan

11. Avenger

12. Galant

13. Sebring

14. Sonata

15. Grand Prix

16. LaCrosse

17. Malibu

[gm4life]

My List...

1.) Impala

2.) Grand Prix

3.) Aura

4.) G6

5.) Fusion

6.) Accord

7.) Altima

8.) Avenger

9.) Mazda6

10.) Milan

11.) Malibu

12.) LaX

........................................................

Dead Last- The ugly pig face Camry...

[Hollingsworth]

1. Passat 3.6 - I much prefer the B5 over the B6. I think the MSN Autos "top competitors" selections says it best. 2005 Passat B5 Competitors: Chrysler 300, Mercedes-Benz C Class, Lexus ES330, Audi A4, Saab 9-3, Jaguar X-Type, BMW 3, Infiniti G35. In comparison, the 2006 Passat B6 competitors: Nissan Altima, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Saturn Aura, Mercury Milan, Pontiac G6, Hyuandai Sonata, Kia Optima. The B6 Passat's value for the money could NOT be beat. It handled well, was incredibly built (electrical problems not withstanding), had a well-isolated cabin, and was tastefully designed inside and out (its greenhouse was virtually copied by every carmaker on the road). The current generation feels kind of like a letdown, but I'd still take it over any midsized sedan on the road today.

2. Toyota Camry - I know I'm going to catch hell from this, but I don't think the Camry's styling is that bad. In fact, nose aside, I actually like the design. I've driven my aunt's Camry, and hers didn't suffer from any interior gagges or gaps. Everything was well designed and logically placed. Not the most fun car to drive, but it was smooth and silent. What family could ask for anything more?

3. Chevrolet Impala - It's roomy, is comfortable, and drives well. I actually like the exterior design, particularly the back. The interior is also designed pretty well, though I've seen better plood on other vehicles.

4. Nissan Altima - I like the updated look. Has a good powertrain. The front seats need a little more thought - need to be more supportive. Interior is so-so.

5. Honda Accord - I preferred the styling of the pre-refresh model, but it's still acceptable. Interior still looks good for a model nearing the ends of its cycle. Respectable engine and powertrain. Not as quiet as those higher on the list, though.

6. Saturn Aura - Firm steering, always good. Handles well. Reasonably quiet. The brown interior is interesting, but other elements of the design of it leave much to be desired.

The rest I just don't like. I'd probably put the LaCrosse next on the list and the Dodge Avenger or Pontiac G6 and Grand Prix at the very bottom.

[regfootball]

REVISED FOR 08 MODELS (without seeing malibu or 08 mazda6 yet)

haven't been able to establish an order, just groups

TIER 1

Accord

Milan / Fusion

Galant / Ralliart

Altima

Malibu

Aura

Mazda6

TIER 2

Grand Prix

Impala

Passat 2.0

G6

Camry

TIER 3

Avenger

LaCrosse

Sebring

Legacy

Sonata

Optima

Edited September 14, 2007 by regfootball

[regfootball]

time for updates?

TIER 1

Accord

Milan / Fusion

Altima

Malibu

Aura

Passat 2.0

Mazda6

TIER 2

Grand Prix

Galant / Ralliart

Impala

Camry

LaCrosse

TIER 3

Avenger

Sebring

Legacy

Sonata

Optima

Edited December 8, 2007 by regfootball

[Intrepidation]

Malibu

Accord (but I would opt for the coupe)

Mazda6

Avenger R/T

Legacy

Fusion

Altima