Quiet Tuning vs. Lexus ES 350

[Sajeev Mehta]

1.  Are you questioning Edmunds ability to read a db-meter?

No I'm questioning the dB meter. There is a difference. Everyone uses it but that doesn't mean someone's ear is wrong. Human ears are different than a dB meter, and dB meters come in different qualities anyway.

2. You still clinging to the "at 75mph the Buick is noisier than the Lexus" b.s.? 

Where have you been for the past few days?

How many times do I have to say the Lexus was noisier at 75mph before it'll get through to you?

Do you even read what I write?

3.That information was coming right from Edmunds itself.  It was neither secondhand or conjecture.

As far as conjecture: you are not the only person who posts on this thread.

As far as secondhand: if its obtained, derived, or borrowed from another; its not original. Unless you tested both cars with a dB meter, its secondhand info.

4. The ear simply doesn't have a "frequency response" as you claim. 

Your link doesn't help much: do you not believe that some ears hear some frequencies better than other people? Does everyone hear 1,20, 300, 600hz frequencies as clearly as everyone else?

That's my point. Prove me wrong.

5. your review doesn't pass as being objective.  After reading your rebuttals, I think just about everybody here will question your integrity as well.

Once again, I hereby proclaim my reviews to be subjective. Do you even read what I write?

6. "Rally the troops"?  This really shows your true colors, doesn't it?

No, your inflammatory speech shows your true colors.

You said your secondhand Edmunds facts proved me wrong, when it only proved 1 out of 3 of my statements wrong. Unless you got something new to say that isn't in a venomous tone, I don't see any other reason for your behaviour.

TTAC = "The Truth (As Seen Through Import-Humping Googles) About Cars"

Do you even read what I write? Yup, I'm a jap-lovin Camry hater, that's for sure.

I'm done with you.  I've made my points.

Good luck with them. Do me a favor and don't read any of my work, any of my postings. Since you can't seem to appreciate the occasional consensus building I make with a few members (not all), like to throw in secondhand information that has little to do with my first hand subjective road tests and wrap it all up with phases like:

"THA'TS COMPLETE AND UTTER B.S."

"half-cocked wannabe"

Have a good week.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Sajeev Mehta

[Sajeev Mehta]

I don't question the honesty of someone reading a db meter and I don't believe anything CR puts out.  I'm beginning not to believe anything MT or C&D write.  Your website it called "The Truth about Cars" and that's misleading because one glance at that site and I see a bias against American cars.

I question the wide-spread use of the meter itself.

If ya "glance" harder you'll see we give negative reviews to cars around the world. My Camry review? The "GM death watch" has an inflammatory name, but that's it. If there was an Enron death watch, people wouldn't care, but if we trace the moves of the management team that's let GM slide to the verge of bankruptcy, we become unamerican? That's not fair.

Shouldn't we hold the rich CEOs (with golden parachutes) and Board of Directors accountable? Shouldn't we watch what they are doing to the most important company in America?

Don't tell me we have an anti-American agenda, only someone who gives it "one glance" comes to that conclusion.

Agreed.  But you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you say "the subjective truth about cars"

I see your point, you are right. Well I didn't come up with the name, so I'm gonna have to live with it.

Ya gotta admit its a catchy name, though.

It's not my victory.  It's Buicks.

Again, you are right.

My eyes and ears tell me that Buick kicked lexus in the nuts and has a better car in the Lucerne. 

I can't pick a clear winner between the two. Put them both together (Lexus 6-speed with Northstar V8 for one) in a few areas and you'd have one frickin awesome vehicle.

I found a new article in C&D interesting.  It was on the new lexus LS. They stated that you can hear the V8 when you stomp on it.  I guess their $70k flagship isn't as quite as their camry knockoff es350....go figure...

Haven't read it yet. That's disappointing (well not to me, but to Lexus owners) because previous LS's had a very quiet motors. You could still tell there was a V8 under there, but man, it was real quiet.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Sajeev Mehta

[enzl]

Because that is Cadillac and Saturn's job.

Chevy and Buick are American tuned

Saturn and Cadillac are Euro tuned

and I don't know WTF is up with Pontiac....Australian tuned maybe?

187367[/snapback]

You missed the operative word: ALTERNATIVE

Definition: "employing or following nontraditional or unconventional ideas, methods, etc.; existing outside the establishment" as per dictionary.com

You don't need to ape the european models....you need to identify core competancies and create new ways of exploiting them. As I said above, its same old GM committee think that apears in both the LaCrosse and Lucerne. That ain't going to get it done.

It's not getting it done. LaCrosse is off 20% in the 2nd model year of its existence!

(And GM is running 30% fleet, so its actually even worse than that from a retail perspective.)

[Drew Dowdell]

You missed the operative word: ALTERNATIVE

Definition: "employing or following nontraditional or unconventional ideas, methods, etc.; existing outside the establishment" as per dictionary.com

You don't need to ape the european models....you need to identify core competancies and create new ways of exploiting them. As I said above, its same old GM committee think that apears in both the LaCrosse and Lucerne. That ain't going to get it done.

It's not getting it done. LaCrosse is off 20% in the 2nd model year of its existence!

(And GM is running 30% fleet, so its actually even worse than that from a retail perspective.)

187500[/snapback]

again, that is more a function of the dated and ill-sized W-body.

[pow]

FWIW about sound meters... C&D 10/06 on the new Aura...

"Driving the Aura on the highway is like putting on a set of Bose noise-canceling headphones. Although our sound-level meter measured a very average 68 dBA of noise, it seemed to our ears to be the quietest car since a Rolls-Royce Phantom."

... on the new Navigator...

"... we found the dubs to be exceptionally noisy on interstates, where they sang loudly over road textures... the air-rush sound over the Gator's greenhouse seemed louder than the others, too, even though our sound-level meter didn't back up this perception."

Human ear > dB meter

[enzl]

again, that is more a function of the dated and ill-sized W-body.

187501[/snapback]

Agreed. But the beauty of being GM is that there are literally dozens of potential platforms lying around...

...I find it hard to believe that the epsilon couldn't have had a Buick LaCrosse developed or that the Sigma couldn't have had just enough cost taken out to justify a RWD Buick of some kind...

The proper planning could have meant a Camaro years ago, with a Buick coupe counterpart and a Pontiac Firebird/TA/GTO....It just wasn't done.

What's worse is the Fiat/Saab/Isuzu/Subaru (take your pick) fiasco drained $ and attention that should have been lasered in on product. GM is clearly capable of world class, value product. It just seems like they have Corporate ADD.

Edited August 31, 2006 by enzl

[razoredge]

Sad part is a majority of people will believe crap like this guy puts out and the magazines. Its nothing but highly focused, nonsence with a goal to prove inferiority on behalf of a particular party.

So I guess they used one inferior meter in the Buick and a high quality 100% accurate db meter in the Lexus...................when clearly all they needed to do was contact ol' Sajeev and then they would have had "first hand" info..........

btw - why is someone so concerned about the validity of second hand info, so anxious to get his own second hand info out there for all to read. Cause as soon as its read, its second hand

So it seems apparent that this Sajeev feels Buick should drop the quite tuning campaign and perhaps start a new one, something like "we failed" or "we lied".................or how about "Lexus is more quite, more comfortable, more stylish, more touchy feely soft, more high tec, more powerful and also American"

then, would all you pukes be happy ? proud of yourselves ? a great sense of accomplishment ?

[razoredge]

The 4-2 downshift really wakes up the Northstar and silences all interior conversations. I did that while talking with two passengers and everyone remained silent until I got off the throttle.

That doesn't happen in a Lexus.

yarite ! Well if it doesnt happen thats one lame car. I've never heard any engine, turbine, electric, gas piston, diesel, rotory you name it that does not get loud and authoritive under load, subjectivity alright.

Highly motivated subjectivity.................its alright though, because if someone repeats it it becomes second hand and therefore no one will believe it or base any decisions upon it...................

you da man sajeev you da man !

[pow]

"Lexus says the '07 LS is as quiet as ever -- and we agree -- although the cabin is less isolated. That's a good thing, because more of the ultrasmooth V-8's subdued roar can be heard inside." - C&D, October 2006

Oh noes!~!~!~x11tymillion

[Flybrian]

Oh snaps.

[Camino LS6]

I can't believe such a pointless topic is still active.

[GMman]

It's alive because you just wrote that last reply.

[razoredge]

Its alive !

[Camino LS6]

It's alive because you just wrote that last reply.

187981[/snapback]

Touche

[razoredge]

My TV is making an annoying sound in the background, and my ears are ringing.....................gall dang dat ol turtyate hunred

[pow]

Has anyone tried Trader Joe's organic lemonade? Is it any good?

[razoredge]

Mikes, only Mikes

[GMman]

Touche 

187989[/snapback]

lexus can kiss my touche

[LucerneOwner]

Well, I just came back from a 400mi trip in the Lexus ES 350 and here are my thoughts.

1) At 75mph, the Lexus ES has SIGNIFICANTLY more wind noise than a "Quiet Tuned" Lucerne.

2) The ES has a lot of road noise on coarse pavement, more than a Lucerne on any pavement I drove on.

3) Stomp the throttle for passing and the ES gives a muted howl, its much quieter than the Lucerne at WOT.

So I stand by my words, the Lucerne is a quiet car on the highway, provided you don't get on the gas much. 

The Lucerne needs an engine as quiet as the Lexus ES to fit my definition of "quiet tuning."

185328[/snapback]

I fully agree! Who are these troglodytes who want noise out of a Lucerne of all things?! That's crazy. Surely there are other cars to satisfy neandrathal noise needs. The problem with Lucerne's so called Quiet-Tuning is that the beautiful job they did with reducing wind and road noise is spoiled by the lousy job isolating engine noise at most ANY acceleration, which is a big disappointment to me. I loved the much quieter engine in my 1999 LaSabre Ltd. Somehow I missed that difference in my Lucerne test drive, and wouldn't have purchased the car had I realized the poor engine noise isolation.

[Cananopie]

I fully agree!  Who are these troglodytes who want noise out of a Lucerne of all things?! That's crazy.  Surely there are other cars to satisfy neandrathal noise needs. The problem with Lucerne's so called Quiet-Tuning is that the beautiful job they did with reducing wind and road noise is spoiled by the lousy job isolating engine noise at most ANY acceleration, which is a big disappointment to me.  I loved the much quieter engine in my 1999 LaSabre Ltd.  Somehow I missed that difference in my Lucerne test drive, and wouldn't have purchased the car had I realized the poor engine noise isolation.

227040[/snapback]

I drive my mother's Lucerne quite often as well as my fathers 2000 LeSabre. The engine noise into the cabin is hardly different. When floored it's definitely noticeable, but all-around it is nothing out of the ordinary for the 3.8 inside of them (unless your Lucerne has the 8 cyl). The noise it produces isn't anything unusual for Buick and has not been a point of complaint for almost everybody. I highly doubt there is less engine noise into the cabin in the LeSabre than the Lucerne, I might be wrong but the LeSabre wasn't so focused on noise-deadening and I'd almost put money down that the Lucerne actually addresses the problem of engine-noise into the cabin on some level higher than the LeSabre did.

I just find it hard to believe that this was something bothers you so much that you'd actually not consider purchasing the car. It's not louder than most vehicles thats for sure. Plus check out the CD player or radio sometime as they will not only help you forget about your horrific engine noise but it might take your mind of stewing on something that really isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of cars or life.

My brother can give you a ride in his 1993 Chevy Diesel pickup and then we'll know the proper definition of bothersome engine noise.

[caddycruiser]

Well, in my long drive of one '06 CXL V6 and a ride in another, the 3.8L growl was still louder and more gruff than compared to others I've been in with the same--a '99 LeSabre, '02 LeSabre, and '99 Intrigue. It's always been a bit of a growly engine, but just seemed to really get even more raucous in the Lucerne--whether that's because the rest of the car is so quiet now or what, it's still a little odd. The other cars just sounded smoother and the engine more muffled, both seemingly insulation and exhaust wise.

Still has it's benefits, like the 32-35 MPG average the computer was showing on my drive, but doesn't at all give the quality sound something like the now common 3.6L would--even with a decrease in mileage. The 3.9L is more pleasant sounding and a bit more powerful too, even being an OHV, just newer.

If buying one myself, now, though, the 3.8L Series III would still be the ticket, grumpy old roar and all, mainly because of the stellar mileage and the torque.

Edited December 14, 2006 by caddycruiser

[LucerneOwner]

I drive my mother's Lucerne quite often as well as my fathers 2000 LeSabre. The engine noise into the cabin is hardly different. When floored it's definitely noticeable, but all-around it is nothing out of the ordinary for the 3.8 inside of them (unless your Lucerne has the 8 cyl). The noise it produces isn't anything unusual for Buick and has not been a point of complaint for almost everybody. I highly doubt there is less engine noise into the cabin in the LeSabre than the Lucerne ..... It's not louder than most vehicles thats for sure ....

227388[/snapback]

I don't know about the 2000 LeSabre, but it's not my imagination that my 1999 LeSabre Ltd had significantly better engine noise isolation under acceleration than my new Lucerne CX. I've always been very sensitive to this sort of thing, perhaps an anal perfectionist sort of thing. The CX is great for highway driving at more or less steady speed, but I also do a lot of start/stop city driving, and the engine noise is very disappointing to me. I'm one of those folks who equate quality & luxury to smoothness & quietude, under any driving conditions, and am no doubt more sensitive to this sort of thing than the average person. I just feel I've been 'scammed' to a certain extent by this Quiet-Tuning' promotion. Maybe there's something wrong with my particular car ... a leaky muffler/resonator or faulty engine mount(s) or missing manifold gasket(s) or faulty muffler/tailpipe hanger or whatever. Does anyone out there know of any tricks or customizing to better isolate Lucerne engine noise? I'd gladly pay extra for that.