Quiet Tuning vs. Lexus ES 350

[Cananopie]

Buick's gotta cover the whole enchalada with salsa if they expect to survive the Lexus Invasion. Again, that's my opinion after experiencing both the Lucerne and the Lexus ES.

186465[/snapback]

You want Buick to BE Lexus, you don't want Buick to be marketed any differently than Lexus, where it deviates it fails, it's a way to make sure Buick never wins.

[Flybrian]

Buick's gotta cover the whole enchalada with salsa if they expect to survive the Lexus Invasion. Again, that's my opinion after experiencing both the Lucerne and the Lexus ES.

186465[/snapback]

Certainly you're opinion, but I hope you can see why many feel Buick doesn't need to carbon copy Lexus to match or beat Lexus. Again, some prefer complete isolation while others prefer more expressiveness while still being 'refined.'

[DenCo]

Why? Because its not a "package" unless they mute the engine. And I think its more than just a little growl.

Buick's gotta cover the whole enchalada with salsa if they expect to survive the Lexus Invasion. Again, that's my opinion after experiencing both the Lucerne and the Lexus ES.

I ask other C&G members to test a Lucerne V8 and Lexus ES and come to their own conclusions. I don't corner the market on test driving cars, ya know.

186465[/snapback]

I believe you're mising the point here...

You're basically saying that to be considered a worthy opponent to Lexus, they must become Lexus and then push what Lexus is to a whole new level. But there's is one small proble with that: they are not Lexus, they are not "the American Lexus" (Lutz said that in order to kinda draw a parallel that people would understand, I think), they are *pause for suspense* BUICK.

As a matter of fact, I believe that a better way of putting that whole Buick vs. Lexus thing would have been to say that Lexus is the Japanese Buick and still hasn't managed to get it quite right; but that would require all of the people that quick explanation was targeting to forget their misconceptions about the brand and their oh-so-80s "Japanese is better, always!" mentality.

The two are different because the two are completely different brands: Buick is a niche brand, one that wants to build a real American car; Lexus, I can only describe as a Toyota you actually might aspire to someday own.

So again, they're not the same because they are not meant to be. Nothing wrong with a little bit of contrast out in the world, especally between competition.

[Paolino]

You want Buick to BE Lexus, you don't want Buick to be marketed any differently than Lexus, where it deviates it fails, it's a way to make sure Buick never wins.

186472[/snapback]

I don't believe that... I truly believe (and I believe this too), that Buick has to have near-faltless product, that exceeds the competition in almost every way in order to shine.

Listen, I know the 3800 is an awesome engine, but it's WAY overdue to be put to rest. It does not belong in a luxury car. I know it's satisfying the old Buick crowd by being there and keeping the base price low.. I'm assuming it's in there just for the transition period. I'm confident Buick will remove it soon and put the much-needed 3.6L in there.

I'd like to see a higher-performing, more-refined V6 in the Lucerne and a slightly more-potent Northstar, the 291hp version at least. But until the DTS gets a more potent version, we won't see that in the Lucerne.

I still see Buick in its transition form. I am confident Buick will shine again in just a few years with awesome product.

[razoredge]

GM has been putting "engine covers" over their engines since the 80's to deaden the clicking of the injectors as well as valve sound, nothing new there.

GM has been putting underhood sound deading blankets for decades too, I cant say when this began.

GM has been building restrictive sound deadening intake "boxs" since the 80's nothing new there.

The Lacrosse I test drove was a quite as I could hope for, strangely so infact, it gave me that weird feeling I got the first time I entered a sound room for recording, so it must be they accomplished something.

Now that covers the quite tuning

on to the engine growling subject.................

The 3.9 in our G6 is too quite, its a bit odd trying to take a car up through the gears when you can barely hear the engine. Whats the G6 got to do with a N* Lucerne ? Well its a G6, with no quite tuning and a "pushrod" V6.....................yet the N* growls...............constantly ?

What a dweeb

I cant believe you guys are argueing this, the motiveation and lack of rationality are obvious.

mommy, mommy, my car growled at me...................

[Sajeev Mehta]

So again, they're not the same because they are not meant to be. Nothing wrong with a little bit of contrast out in the world, especally between competition.

186498[/snapback]

Very well said. But you mentioned competition: my concern is that Buick isn't even a blip on Lexus' radar.

I'm all about Buick's being American luxury cars...but that ain't gonna happen until the RWD chassis shows up 5+ years from now. Northstar or not, the Lucerne still has FWD dynamics like a Lexus ES, and I still find fault with its lack of dedication to quiet tuning.

[Paolino]

The 3.9 in our G6 is too quite, its a bit odd trying to take a car up through the gears when you can barely hear the engine.

186513[/snapback]

That's odd.. I haven't heard from a single person that the 3.9 is as quiet as you claim. I've heard it's quiet, but not so that you can barely hear the engine. And I've heard it's quite audible under accelleration.

[razoredge]

That's odd.. I haven't heard from a single person that the 3.9 is as quiet as you claim.  I've heard it's quiet, but not so that you can barely hear the engine.  And I've heard it's quite audible under accelleration.

186567[/snapback]

Yes you can hear it under hard accelleration, but in typical driving range 1500-2200rpm you really have no feel for the engine, more bark would be better with the stick which I will be taking care of. From idle, for starting was the hardest to get used to. I must have stalled it half a dozen times the first few times I drove it. At speed in slow RPMS like say your in 5th or 6th but coast down through town you have no idea what gear you need to be in to re accellerate because you just cant hear the exhaust note. There is a learning curve with the 6speed though, I will admit. In these cases you just need to think drop down two gears not the old habit of just dropping one.

Back on topic though, this car, the G6 is quite while cruising or typical slow accelleration. There is far more road, wind, suspension bump noise than engine noise. I just cant see how its a problem with a N* Lucerne "constant growling".

I do need to test drive both Lucernes, Id love to compare them to the LSS. These people would probably let me go out too, without pretending to be a potential purchaser, because they know I am not. I just dont want to get all worked up over something I really dont need, and Im afraid Id really like that N*.

[Drew Dowdell]

Very well said.  But you mentioned competition: my concern is that Buick isn't even a blip on Lexus' radar.

I'm all about Buick's being American luxury cars...but that ain't gonna happen until the RWD chassis shows up 5+ years from now. Northstar or not, the Lucerne still has FWD dynamics like a Lexus ES, and I still find fault with its lack of dedication to quiet tuning.

186556[/snapback]

So now you're changing the criteria.

First it was the "growl"

now it's the fact thta it doesn't have a RWD chassis....EVEN THOUGH the ES doesn't have one either.....

Buick and Oldsmobile pretty much built the FWD luxury car market in this country. What could be more American then that?

[GMman]

my concern is that Buick isn't even a blip on Lexus' radar.

186556[/snapback]

I think the guys from lexus would disagree with that.

Especially when you compare specific vehicles, such as the Lucerne against ...say the camry...I mean the es350. They are similar in size and price...and frankly the Lucerne has more to offer.

The Lucerne wouldn't be a blip on the screen of the LS, because they're very different vehicles that are separated by $25,000 or more.

[buyacargetacheck]

Very well said.  But you mentioned competition: my concern is that Buick isn't even a blip on Lexus' radar.

I'm all about Buick's being American luxury cars...but that ain't gonna happen until the RWD chassis shows up 5+ years from now. Northstar or not, the Lucerne still has FWD dynamics like a Lexus ES, and I still find fault with its lack of dedication to quiet tuning.

186556[/snapback]

An American luxury car is not an "American luxury car" unless it's on a "RWD chassis?" I guess we have to throw out 20 years of FWD DeVille, Riviera, Electra, Park Avenue, Ninety-Eight history. Along with 25 years of FWD Seville history. And nearly 40 years of FWD Toronado/Aurora and Eldorado history.

Despite being despised by Car and Driver, etc., all of these cars were priced like luxury cars and routinely outsold the "superior," more austere German competition. Again, more nonsense from the golden child.

[enzl]

An American luxury car is not an "American luxury car" unless it's on a "RWD chassis?"  I guess we have to throw out 20 years of FWD DeVille, Riviera, Electra, Park Avenue, Ninety-Eight history.  Along with 25 years of FWD Seville history.  And nearly 40 years of FWD Toronado/Aurora and Eldorado history.

Despite being despised by Car and Driver, etc., all of these cars were priced like luxury cars and routinely outsold the "superior," more austere German competition.  Again, more nonsense from the golden child.

186621[/snapback]

Since the American Luxo FWD market has been shrinking for the past 20 years, isn't it wise that GM and DCX have made the move back to RWD?

I don't understand the logic of resisting the market's pull....Please explain how NOT making product that matches the world's best is a good idea?

ABS, TCS & ESP have eradicated any of FWD's former advantages....and an AWD option is needed, regardless (& should please the ice/snow crowd).

Oh...and your arguments might appear a little stronger if you dispense with the subtle, amateur racial barbs (golden child? c'mon man.)

[Flybrian]

Oh...and your arguments might appear a little stronger if you dispense with the subtle, amateur racial barbs (golden child? c'mon man.)

186706[/snapback]

You lost me with this...

[buyacargetacheck]

Since the American Luxo FWD market has been shrinking for the past 20 years, isn't it wise that GM and DCX have made the move back to RWD?

I don't understand the logic of resisting the market's pull....Please explain how NOT making product that matches the world's best is a good idea?

ABS, TCS & ESP have eradicated any of FWD's former advantages....and an AWD option is needed, regardless (& should please the ice/snow crowd).

Oh...and your arguments might appear a little stronger if you dispense with the subtle, amateur racial barbs (golden child? c'mon man.)

186706[/snapback]

Having owned both FWD and RWD (including BMW), I can say that in 99% of driving situations it doesn't matter. What matters, in reality, is how an overall package works between stoplights, on the highway and in the parking lot. GM's new cars are bashed undeservedly by the major press (and the minor too as seen at TTAC).

Golden child is not a racial reference.

[Cananopie]

I don't believe that... I truly believe (and I believe this too), that Buick has to have near-faltless product, that exceeds the competition in almost every way in order to shine.

Listen, I know the 3800 is an awesome engine, but it's WAY overdue to be put to rest.  It does not belong in a luxury car.  I know it's satisfying the old Buick crowd by being there and keeping the base price low.. I'm assuming it's in there just for the transition period.  I'm confident Buick will remove it soon and put the much-needed 3.6L in there.

I'd like to see a higher-performing, more-refined V6 in the Lucerne and a slightly more-potent Northstar, the 291hp version at least.  But until the DTS gets a more potent version, we won't see that in the Lucerne.

I still see Buick in its transition form.  I am confident Buick will shine again in just a few years with awesome product.

186499[/snapback]

You are under the preconception that copying the exact way Lexus attained success means success for Buick. However it's foolish to "understand" yet ignore what has made Buicks and American vehicles popular themselves. For instance the deep growl only (almost only at least) an American V8 can give is something to treasure. Sajeev tries to extrapolate this issue in to being something to worry about. This isn't the sound of a chincy engine, the Northstar engine is well known for being a well-refined engine- there is no issue on the QUALITY of the engine. Nor is it a LOUD engine.

It seems in the automotive industry so many people are looking for absolutes. Whether or not the vague noise of the engine actually irritates anyone is not the issue it seems for you or Sajeev, the issue seems to be that it's not like Lexus enough so therefore it fails. There is appeal to the growl of an American engine- far more appeal than there is for the buzzing or whining sound of foreign competitors. Buick isn't setting out to forget you're driving a vehicle- which may be Lexuses goal- Buick, I'd say has more of a mission to make an experience come from your vehicle.

Buick needs to distinguish itself from Lexus as more appealing and frankly more interesting. Lexus is known for luxury and quiet- however it's also probably the most boring of all luxury divisions. Buick doesn't need to be boring too- you're telling me you wouldn't enjoy a little growl from your engine when you floored it? Once again- not enough to mess with a conversation on your cell phone or that makes you put your music up louder because you still hear it (because the engine is not THAT loud) but enough to make the vehicle exciting. Lexuses are boring vehicles and Buick, keeping the tradition of powerful growling V8s is important because that is one of the top things most recall today about what they enjoy most about their American vehicle. The V8 growl- because Lexus can't replicate that does not mean Buick should get rid of it!

There will always be those people who will reach deep in the annals of the GM press releases and bust out the single statement where Lexus and Buick were compared to in the same sentence and then shout about saying how unlike Lexus Buick is and how Buick needs to be more like Lexus. I don't need to be driving in a vaccuum, Buick has effectively outsilenced Lexus and still kept an attractive American quality (the V8 growl- if they felt it was a problem they would've used more sound deadening against it- have you drive the Lucerne V8? it isn't an issue that would annoy you in the slighest- it's an issue made for nitpickers who just want to complain- it actually doesnt negatively effect a single thing about what you plan to do in the car and it's not loud enough to reach levels of obnoxiousness- it's made to enhance your driving experience)

As for the 3800 which is a totally different issue on levels of luxury- I understand that you wish Buick would drop it for the "more refined' 3.6 liter but if you actually want to increase sales it'd be more essential to focus on possibly a more luxurious transmission, an engine that gets better MPG than either the 3.6 or the 3.8, Displacement on Demand, and alternative fuel options- these are whats going to make Buick (and other GM products) sell and be a lot more enticing than the boring 3.6 and Lexus. The 3.6 has not impressed me in the LaCrosse as being any better of an engine than the 3.8 supercharged. The 3.8 supercharged was more fun and was quicker. The fact that the 3.8 is old doesn't make it unrefined- it is a very refined engine in both the Lucerne and LaCrosse since I've driven both numerously. Buick needs to focus on something that will make a difference to the consumer - not alienate the loyal buyers for an engine that is almost identical in performance and MPG than the 3.8.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Cananopie

[enzl]

Having owned both FWD and RWD (including BMW), I can say that in 99% of driving situations it doesn't matter.  What matters, in reality, is how an overall package works between stoplights, on the highway and in the parking lot.  GM's new cars are bashed undeservedly by the major press (and the minor too as seen at TTAC).

Golden child is not a racial reference.

186740[/snapback]

As someone who drives dozens of cars/year, including most of those referenced on this thread, I can state unequivocately that GM's G-bodies (and W's) are well past their freshness date.

The market in the $30-50k class has been overrun by RWD/AWD choices. Almost every major manufacturer has a RWD in this class, & most are AWD capable...so what does this say about GM's efforts? They've fallen behind...just like the compact car segment, the small pick-up segment, the minivans, mid-size FWD's etc...

GM is being picked on...but not unfairly. DCX has proven that this market can be exploited successfully. Zeta is only expected after the second-gen LX's are out. That's not good. Nissan's FM platform underpins many great products, sold at reasonable prices that are fully competitive with GM's old FWD. If that (formerly)cash strapped, dead-in-the-water entity can do it, the question is: Why hasn't GM?

(And I'd love to hear what 'golden child' meant, as I had assumed you were refering to Mr. Metha's cultural background. Are you going to tell me it was a compliment? It's incredible how sensitive you guys are to the barbs hurled at GM, yet don't have the common sense to apply any sensitivity to how people here are being insulted...)

[Drew Dowdell]

As someone who drives dozens of cars/year, including most of those referenced on this thread, I can state unequivocately that GM's G-bodies (and W's) are well past their freshness date.

The market in the $30-50k class has been overrun by RWD/AWD choices. Almost every major manufacturer has a RWD in this class, & most are AWD capable...so what does this say about GM's efforts? They've fallen behind...just like the compact car segment, the small pick-up segment, the minivans, mid-size FWD's etc...

GM is being picked on...but not unfairly. DCX has proven that this market can be exploited successfully. Zeta is only expected after the second-gen LX's are out. That's not good.  Nissan's FM platform underpins many great products, sold at reasonable prices that are fully competitive with GM's old FWD. If that (formerly)cash strapped, dead-in-the-water entity can do it, the question is: Why hasn't GM?

(And I'd love to hear what 'golden child' meant, as I had assumed you were refering to Mr. Metha's cultural background. Are you going to tell me it was a compliment? It's incredible how sensitive you guys are to the barbs hurled at GM, yet don't have the common sense to apply any sensitivity to how people here are being insulted...)

186893[/snapback]

What you are explaining is that GM's platforms are old, NOT that a FWD Lucerne can't sell. Two completely different issues. Would you similarly charge Acura for "falling behind" when it still offers predominantly FWD <and one, poor selling, AWD> cars? What about Lexus for continuing to offer it's ES?

A properly engineered, modern platform, full sized, luxury car can sell... and C&D will harp on it all year for not out handling the 3-series.... but that's ok, because it's not supposed to.

[Flybrian]

(And I'd love to hear what 'golden child' meant, as I had assumed you were refering to Mr. Metha's cultural background. Are you going to tell me it was a compliment? It's incredible how sensitive you guys are to the barbs hurled at GM, yet don't have the common sense to apply any sensitivity to how people here are being insulted...)

186893[/snapback]

You read way too much into things...

[Sajeev Mehta]

now it's the fact thta it doesn't have a RWD chassis....EVEN THOUGH the ES doesn't have one either.....

186601[/snapback]

Whoops, I shouldn't have gone all big picture with that. My bad.

Buick and Oldsmobile pretty much built the FWD luxury car market in this country. What could be more American then that?

186601[/snapback]

Yeah, and now we've all outgrown FWD (park a Lucerne next to an Electra T-type if you don't believe me) and everyone goes nuts over a Chrysler 300. The Chrysler 300 reminds us of what's more American than a 1980s FWD GM sedan.

I think we've all gotten out points out in the air, are we officially ---> ????

Edited August 30, 2006 by Sajeev Mehta

[enzl]

What you are explaining is that GM's platforms are old, NOT that a FWD Lucerne can't sell. Two completely different issues.  Would you similarly charge Acura for "falling behind" when it still offers predominantly FWD <and one, poor selling, AWD> cars? What about Lexus for continuing to offer it's ES?

A properly engineered, modern platform, full sized, luxury car can sell... and C&D will harp on it all year for not out handling the 3-series.... but that's ok, because it's not supposed to.

186896[/snapback]

I'm merely explaining that GM's platforms are NOT competitive. The Lucerne is a stop-gap measure that's not comprable to industry best platforms. There's no disputing that a market for these products exist, but that doesn't excuse the lack of vision on GM's part. As for Acura...they're tarted up Honda's, no more, no less. The difference between Honda & GM is that these products have modern platforms, engines and tech that isn't currently making it into the Lucerne. I'm looking at the IS, G, Z, 3,5,C,E as targets that seem more likely to produce stunning product. Part of GM's problem is that they look to improve on current product, rather than benchmarking great, outside product and looking to exceed those targets.

BTW-They harp on the deficiencies in the product presented...noone is comparing the 3 to the Lucerne, however, I know where my hard-earned $40K would go.

The large, luxo sedan market has been replaced by RWD/AWD sedans and SUV/people movers in terms of volume in the near luxury market. Where is GM's response to these conditions?...

[Sajeev Mehta]

Part of GM's problem is that they look to improve on current product, rather than benchmarking great, outside product and looking to exceed those targets.

186904[/snapback]

Don't think like that. Remember how great GM's front wheel drive sedans were, remember their soaring profits and their market share gains. That must be how it looks through the rose-colored glasses of C&G members here.

And for those who enjoy taking personal shots at me, racial or otherwise: go pound sand.

(my apologies to the admin/moderators, though I expect actual moderating from you all)

Edited August 30, 2006 by Sajeev Mehta

[Drew Dowdell]

Whoops, I shouldn't have gone all big picture with that. My bad.

Yeah, and now we've all outgrown FWD (park a Lucerne next to an Electra T-type if you don't believe me) and everyone goes nuts over a Chrysler 300.  The Chrysler 300 reminds us of what's more American than a 1980s FWD GM sedan.

I think we've all gotten out points out in the air, are we officially --->  ????

186903[/snapback]

Everyone goes nuts over the 300c because of it's styling and the not-really-a-Hemi. It'd sell even if it was FWD.

People have gone nuts over the Mini-Cooper, New Beatle, Mazda 6, Nissan Altima and I'm sure a few others.

If RWD were such a big deal to people, why don't the Lincoln LS, Pontiac GTO, and Mercury Maurader fly off the shelves?

Face it, it's the styling that sells. There are great selling, great looking FWD cars. There are poor selling, dull looking, RWD cars. For every 300 that is sold, there is a Panther and a GTO sitting on a lot somewhere.

[enzl]

Don't think like that.  Remember how great GM's front wheel drive sedans were, remember their soaring profits and their market share gains. That must be how it looks through the rose-colored glasses of C&G members here.

And for those who enjoy taking personal shots at me, racial or otherwise: go pound sand.

(my apologies to the admin/moderators, though I expect more actual moderating from you all)

186906[/snapback]

Since F-brian felt the need to accuse me of oversensitivity, can I at least verify that the 'golden child' reference may be construed as a slur or detrimental statement of some kind?

He gave me the --probably since defending ALL of the boorish behavior on this site requires a few intellectual shortcuts.

[Sajeev Mehta]

He gave me the  --probably since defending ALL of the boorish behavior on this site requires a few intellectual shortcuts.

186910[/snapback]

Maybe FlyBrian needs to add an exemption for TTAC authors in their membership agreement:

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.

[Sajeev Mehta]

Face it, it's the styling that sells. There are great selling, great looking FWD cars. There are poor selling, dull looking, RWD cars.  For every 300 that is sold, there is a Panther and a GTO sitting on a lot somewhere.

186907[/snapback]

That is very true. Course right now only the Chrysler 300 is the only car mentioned with actual style. But the RWD chassis supports a certain long hood body proportion, and it works.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm merely explaining that GM's platforms are NOT competitive.

Agreed......Well, the G and W bodies.

I'm looking at the IS, G, Z, 3,5,C,E as targets that seem more likely to produce stunning product. Part of GM's problem is that they look to improve on current product, rather than benchmarking great, outside product and looking to exceed those targets.

Buick will never, and should never look at the IS, G35, 3, and C as it's competition in the 30k class.

I know where my hard-earned $40K would go.

and that's fine.... the CTS and STS are there to lure your 40k away from you....if that is the class you are shopping in Buick wouldn't be on your list anyway.

The large, luxo sedan market has been replaced by RWD/AWD sedans and SUV/people movers in terms of volume in the near luxury market. Where is GM's response to these conditions?...

186904[/snapback]

What happens when gas prices continue to climb <and they will continue to climb>? Those SUV owners who don't tow anything more than a double mocha latte will get their step ladders out and climb down out of their 'Burbons, and their Armadas and get themselves into a sedan or crossover. More than likely, if they get a sedan, it will *not* be a 3-series or CTS. The size change would be too great.

[Drew Dowdell]

That is very true.  Course right now only the Chrysler 300 is the only car mentioned with actual style.  But the RWD chassis requires a certain long hood body proportion, and it works.

186913[/snapback]

fixed.

buick came up with a very interesting idea with the Bengal... something I think they should consider doing for all their future FWD platforms.

They turned the engine and transmission 180 degrees so that the transmission was now in front of the engine. This allowed the wheels to be pushed further forward.

[Sajeev Mehta]

Better word choice. Much appreciated.

[cmattson]

Facts > Sajeev

Remember this quote?

1) At 75mph, the Lexus ES has SIGNIFICANTLY more wind noise than a "Quiet Tuned" Lucerne.

2) The ES has a lot of road noise on coarse pavement, more than a Lucerne on any pavement I drove on.

3) Stomp the throttle for passing and the ES gives a muted howl, its much quieter than the Lucerne at WOT

*** THA'TS COMPLETE AND UTTER B.S. ***

Here's some FACTUAL data to back that up:

Buick:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/...62/pageNumber=5

Db @ Idle: 42.7

Db @ Full Throttle: 72.7

Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 65.6

Lexus:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/...87/pageNumber=4

Db @ Idle: 41

Db @ Full Throttle: 74.6

Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 67.5

As you can see by real, hard measurements by a real auto-review website (and not some half-cocked wannabe), the Lexus is quieter at idle, and louder at both wide open throttle and cruising at 70mph... pretty much the complete opposite of Sajeev's claims. Which one would you believe? Edmunds with real data or Sajeev's "observations"?

[Sajeev Mehta]

Facts > Sajeev

Remember this quote?

*** THA'TS COMPLETE AND UTTER B.S. ***

Here's some FACTUAL data to back that up:

Buick:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/...62/pageNumber=5

Db @ Idle: 42.7

Db @ Full Throttle: 72.7

Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 65.6

Lexus:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/...87/pageNumber=4

Db @ Idle: 41

Db @ Full Throttle: 74.6

Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 67.5

As you can see by real, hard measurements by a real auto-review website (and not some half-cocked wannabe), the Lexus is quieter at idle, and louder at both wide open throttle and cruising at 70mph... pretty much the complete opposite of Sajeev's claims.  Which one would you believe?  Edmunds with real data or Sajeev's "observations"?

186920[/snapback]

So Edmund's numbers prove me wrong on #3 (even if resonance may not factor into the equation) but backed up the other points. Ya know, the last time I checked, 2 out of 3 was far from "the complete opposite". But I wasn't very good at math.

I never even mentioned the sound volumes at idle, so why on earth did you bother adding that?

Then again, thanks for the added inflammatory dialogue, it always helps to rally the troops.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Sajeev Mehta

[pow]

Then again, thanks for the added inflammatory dialogue, it always helps to rally the troops. 

186927[/snapback]

Go! Go! Go! Ole Ole Ole! Here! We! Go!

[Chris_Doane]

I love lamp. I love desk.

Edited August 30, 2006 by CD/BP

[enzl]

Agreed......Well, the G and W bodies.

Buick will never, and should never look at the IS, G35, 3, and C as it's competition in the 30k class.

and that's fine.... the CTS and STS are there to lure your 40k away from you....if that is the class you are shopping in Buick wouldn't be on your list anyway.

What happens when gas prices continue to climb <and they will continue to climb>? Those SUV owners who don't tow anything more than a double mocha latte will get their step ladders out and climb down out of their 'Burbons, and their Armadas and get themselves into a sedan or crossover. More than likely, if they get a sedan, it  will *not* be a 3-series or CTS. The size change would be too great.

186914[/snapback]

I was referencing the G & W's....but I've gotta disagree that the IS, G, et al. are not competition...they are similarly priced &, I believe, that a 'Buicked' version of the Sigma, for instance, could be highly competitive in this class, at a slightly lower cost than the CTS---FWIW, my 70 yo grandfather recently purchased an STS...and, he hates it, mostly because its been 'europeanized', whereas, what he wanted was something halfway between old Caddy and new Europe---so, why NOT Buick?

AS for SUV drivers, x-overs will supplant some of the volume---GM will finally have a modern 5-7 passenger x-over in '07. How many X5, ML, MDX, RX/GX, Highlanders, Muranos, et al needed to be sold to convince GM there might be a marketplace? It blows my mind that they had NOTHING in between the mediocre 'Nox/Vue & the SRX for the better of 5 years! (The Aztek/Rendezvous don't count, as they were based on the U platform that has sucked since intro)

[DenCo]

Ahh... gotta love how the facts say something different than the claims made that Lexus has whisper quiet engines and Buicks sound like jackhammers (not quoted word for word and slightly modified for effect...).

So... that doesn't really leave any area in which they fall short or "fail", now does it?

Edited August 30, 2006 by DenCo

[enzl]

Ahh... gotta love how the facts say something different than the claims made that Lexus has whisper quiet engines and Buicks sound like jackhammers (not quoted word for word and slightly modified for effect...).

So... that doesn't really leave any area in which they fall short or "fail", now does it?

186946[/snapback]

The new Buick's aren't 'failures'..they're just not nearly the product they SHOULD be. Unless you count any other critierion other than 'quietude', they're just not that good.....

Quiet, coincidentally, is also what you get plenty of inside Buick showrooms right now.

[Flybrian]

Quiet, coincidentally, is also what you get plenty of inside Buick showrooms right now.

186951[/snapback]

See how serious they are at QuietTuning?

[Camino LS6]

Much ado about nothing.

It is a sure sign that GM is doing the right thing when the critics start grasping at straws to continue the "GM is inferior" myth.

[Drew Dowdell]

I was referencing the G & W's....but I've gotta disagree that the IS, G, et al. are not competition...they are similarly priced &, I believe, that a 'Buicked' version of the Sigma, for instance, could be highly competitive in this class, at a slightly lower cost than the CTS---FWIW, my 70 yo grandfather recently purchased an STS...and, he hates it, mostly because its been 'europeanized', whereas, what he wanted was something halfway between old Caddy and new Europe---so, why NOT Buick?

186943[/snapback]

Buick should compete with the IS and G because it's similarly priced? What nonsense! The Mini-Cooper and Crown Victoria share lower and upper price points... they're natural competitors then!

Buicks are big and comfortable. They have a lot of go-power when you need it, but otherwise are for relaxed cruising with minimal audible intrusions.

Your grandfather would be wise to trade his STS in on a Lucerne.

Why should Buick not get a down graded Sigma? Because there isn't much room under the CTS for it to go. The size of it would dictate that it would be the entry level Buick, probably replacing the Lacrosse. People would bitch and moan if you put anything other than the 3.6 under the hood. Then load it up with nav, xm radio, leather. Enthusiasts would want supportive <read: hard> seats, console shift, sport suspension. Talk would swirl of a "Skylark Super" edition with a specially tuned 6.0 litre V8 with a 6-speed manual..... and.... oh &#036;h&#33;... it's the CTS!

Let Buick be Buick. As far as the ride, the Lucerne CXS has it about right...for a Buick. As for looks, I think the Lucerne looks great especially in black.

[cmattson]

I believe the Edmunds stats prove you wrong in 2 places. Cruising speed and WOT. Your claim was that the Buick was SIGNIFICANTLY louder at 75mph crusing. Edmunds proves that at 70mph the Lucerne is actually quieter. The human ear can detect differences in noise somewhere between 2-3db range.. so the Lucerne would magically have to go from being -1.9db quieter to +2db -- all within 5 mph (a delta of almost 4db). I think you've been busted; btw here's your original statement:

So I stand by my words, the Lucerne is a quiet car on the highway, provided you don't get on the gas much.

The Lucerne needs an engine as quiet as the Lexus ES to fit my definition of "quiet tuning

Do you STILL stand by that when independant data shows that the Buick, at WOT is QUIETER than the ES350? As for resonance, wouldn't that be a personal preference? Oh yeah: that would be SUBJECTIVE..

[Sajeev Mehta]

Your claim was that the Buick was SIGNIFICANTLY louder at 75mph crusing.

186995[/snapback]

No, my claim was "at 75mph, the Lexus ES has SIGNIFICANTLY more wind noise than a "Quiet Tuned" Lucerne." Read my first post again.: that's a compliment to the Buick and agrees with Edmunds.

I apologize if this was initially unclear.

Do you STILL stand by that when independant data shows that the Buick, at WOT is QUIETER than the ES350?  As for resonance, wouldn't that be a personal preference?  Oh yeah: that would be SUBJECTIVE..

186995[/snapback]

Ok, so maybe I heard more resonance from a big V8. I don't walk around with testing equipment (that would require a paycheck) so I'm mostly subjective in my testing. Deal with it.

Consumer reports has nice circles and numerical ratings for the cut-and-dry folks.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Sajeev Mehta

[Flybrian]

Yeah, please don't go the CR route. No one is interested in them anymore.

[enzl]

Buick should compete with the IS and G because it's similarly priced? What nonsense! The Mini-Cooper and Crown Victoria share lower and upper price points... they're natural competitors then!

Buicks are big and comfortable. They have a lot of go-power when you need it, but otherwise are for relaxed cruising with minimal audible intrusions.

Your grandfather would be wise to trade his STS in on a Lucerne.

Why should Buick not get a down graded Sigma?  Because there isn't much room under the CTS for it to go. The size of it would dictate that it would be the entry level Buick, probably replacing the Lacrosse. People would bitch and moan if you put anything other than the 3.6 under the hood. Then load it up with nav, xm radio, leather. Enthusiasts would want supportive <read: hard> seats, console shift, sport suspension. Talk would swirl of a "Skylark Super" edition with a specially tuned 6.0 litre V8 with a 6-speed manual..... and.... oh &#036;h&#33;... it's the CTS!

Let Buick be Buick. As far as the ride, the Lucerne CXS has it about right...for a Buick. As for looks, I think the Lucerne looks great especially in black.

186994[/snapback]

We'll have to agree to disagree. The marketplace is heading in a certain direction, you want to stay the course...Status quo is what dug GM the hole they're in....

...Buick has had so many models that are NOT what you're describing as prototypical Buicks for years. Remember, the Sigma I speak of could be a 2 dr (think Riv), a vert (think Velite) or even a people mover (think SRX), but noone thought outside the box, and now Buick is synonomous with grey-hairs and rental car agencies.

If Hyundai can sell quality or Porsche a truck, then why can't Buick sell a Legitimate alternative to a Euro sport sedan/wagon/coupe? (BTW-A Lucerne can't be parked in my G-father's garage...200" limit....that's why it's not an alternative. The old STS was designed with the European 5 meter rule in mind, thus it was shorter than 200".)

[razoredge]

"Sajeev Mehta" you seem to be doing some great "sand pounding", you have been owned by the data. The level headed posters points just make you look patheticly grasping at straws.

"Enzl" How did this wind up being a FWD topic ? And even if it was, with the new RWD platform comming up why are you "pounding sand" ? Whats the point, it aint gonna get here till it gets here.

Then, please let me remind you that.............Cobalt and Acura TSX are stomping the pants of the 3 series on the REAL track, not a bunch of wanna be racer/Shakespear test pilots but in the real world............so like yea.............just keep pounding that sand

Then GTO and Porsche, the car with the engine placed entirely in the "wrong place" are stoppin 5 series..............so get right on your knees and beat that sandy ground, cause only the sheep are going to dance to your beat.

Ive always wonder just how different Toyota and Hondas really are underneath than they were 10-15 years ago. THen I look at the older Toyotas and Hondas on the road and think about their American competition from the same period. I only shake my head and am damn glad I dont have it buried as firmly in the sand as so many others.

random other points:

GM had some bad years between 2001 & 2005 but gee..........what did they do ? Removed the only brand that stepped out of the norm and into Lexus and Acuras field...............go figure

Cadillac has great RWD cars, but everyone seems to like to forget that.

We North Easterners do NOT want expensive tire eating AWD monstrostitys, those that do, drive the Suv's and Sub's. Some of us want fine, turn key, worry free winters morning luxury FWD's.............deal with it.

300's, Magnums and Chargers or CTS's are not real popular around here but there are a few. Im looking forward to seeing how they do this winter on the challenging days. Our roads are clogged with FWD Toyotas, Lexus, Hondas, Acuras, Mazdas and the full quadrant of GM's Fords and even old Chryslers. Somehow Im just not seeing all these drivers shareing your over enthousiasm for what others presume to be the "ultimate" motor vehical.

[GMman]

so I'm mostly subjective in my testing.   

186997[/snapback]

That says it all. Writing reviews for "The Truth About Cars" but being subjective is a contradiction......especially when you admit you're subjective and are proven wrong about what you've reported. You titled this Win Lose Draw, You decide.

Ok, Buick wins. (even with a gear shift knob that didn't pass your wiggle test) :AH-HA_wink:

[Sajeev Mehta]

That says it all.  Writing reviews for "The Truth About Cars" but being subjective is a contradiction......especially when you admit you're subjective and are proven wrong about what you've reported. 

187209[/snapback]

If you read stats without questioning the testing procedures (CR Kool-Aid, JD Power, etc) or massaged PR clippings you most certainly are NOT getting objective information.

Every source of info has bias, some are sneaky about it, others are blunt.

And if I've been proven wrong by a dB meter of unknown quality in one of my three points...fine. You can have your victory. The human ear hears things differently than a machine, and my ear's frequency response is just as unique as my fingerprint.

I asked for others to report on their experiences with the ES: all I get are secondhand tidbits from Edmunds.com and more conjecture. Tell me what YOUR EARS think of the two after driving them both.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Sajeev Mehta

[Flybrian]

I've driven the Lucerne CXS a few months ago at a debut event and was very pleased with the sound level and was pleased how quiet it was even compared to our '98 Regal, which was very, very quiet (triple door seals, etc).

I've (obviously) yet to drive an ES, though I may when I test the Aveo like I plan to next week (storm pushed back my plans). If I do, I'll let you know.

[zete]

I donno if you've drove one, but the northstar growls all the time. I like it, but my daily drivers have headers and 2.5" exhausts.  Most prefer a Lexus-quiet motor.

185413[/snapback]

Maybe it's an age thing. I prefer a nice growl, too. But I'm still young.

As to the reviews, aren't Lexus and Buick owners both fairly old on average? Aren't many of them therefore hearing impaired? So why, then, is quiet tuning such a big deal?

I'm being facetious for those that are humour impaired.

Edited August 31, 2006 by zete

[cmattson]

If you read stats without questioning the testing procedures (CR Kool-Aid, JD Power, etc) or massaged PR clippings you most certainly are NOT getting objective information.

Every source of info has bias, some are sneaky about it, others are blunt.

And if I've been proven wrong by a dB meter of unknown quality in one of my three points...fine. You can have your victory. The human ear hears things differently than a machine, and my ear's frequency response is just as unique as my fingerprint.

I asked for others to report on their experiences with the ES: all I get are secondhand tidbits from Edmunds.com and more conjecture. Tell me what YOUR EARS think of the two after driving them both.

I've got to call you several things:

1. Are you questioning Edmunds ability to read a db-meter? Rating a car's sound level isn't exactly rocket science. Edmunds have historically been harsh in their criticism of GM. And what would they stand to gain? Surely every study is prone to error - as are your human observations. If you are going to discount one, then you'd better open up your own analysis for the same treatment: something you are apparently unwilling to do.

2. You still clinging to the "at 75mph the Buick is noisier than the Lexus" b.s.? I think I've introduced a significant amount of doubt to that argument by showing the actual db levels of Buick & Lexus @ 70mph. I don't think you'll convince any sane, objective person that somewhere between 71 and 75 mph the Buick gains 4db in noise.

3. Since when was the the information from Edmunds.com secondhand and conjectionure? I provided the links didn't I? That information was coming right from Edmunds itself. It was neither secondhand or conjecture.

4. "ear's frequency response is just as unique as my fingerprint" ? What kind of garbage is this? You really do have the wrong person to argue with on this point. Both of my children have a mild degree of hearing loss (something hereditary on my wife's side of the family). I know all too well the inner workings of the human ear. The ear simply doesn't have a "frequency response" as you claim. Here's a great website to educate yourself on: http://www.kidshealth.org/kid/body/ear_noSW.html

5. "You can have your victory"? This isn't some childish game. I'm simply questioning your objectivity and your analysis with some easily available facts and frankly, your review doesn't pass as being objective. After reading your rebuttals, I think just about everybody here will question your integrity as well.

6. "Rally the troops"? This really shows your true colors, doesn't it? I think we can throw objectivity right out the window now.

TTAC = "The Truth (As Seen Through Import-Humping Googles) About Cars"

I'm done with you. I've made my points. I'll let everybody decide for themselves on this matter for hereafter.

Edited August 31, 2006 by cmattson

[Drew Dowdell]

If Hyundai can sell quality or Porsche a truck, then why can't Buick sell a Legitimate alternative to a Euro sport sedan/wagon/coupe?

187040[/snapback]

Because that is Cadillac and Saturn's job.

Chevy and Buick are American tuned

Saturn and Cadillac are Euro tuned

and I don't know WTF is up with Pontiac....Australian tuned maybe?

[GMman]

If you read stats without questioning the testing procedures (CR Kool-Aid, JD Power, etc) or massaged PR clippings you most certainly are NOT getting objective information. 

I don't question the honesty of someone reading a db meter and I don't believe anything CR puts out. I'm beginning not to believe anything MT or C&D write. Your website it called "The Truth about Cars" and that's misleading because one glance at that site and I see a bias against American cars.

Every source of info has bias, some are sneaky about it, others are blunt.

Agreed. But you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you say "the subjective truth about cars"

You can have your victory. 

It's not my victory. It's Buicks.

I asked for others to report on their experiences with the ES: all I get are secondhand tidbits from Edmunds.com and more conjecture.  Tell me what YOUR EARS think of the two after driving them both.

187245[/snapback]

My eyes and ears tell me that Buick kicked lexus in the nuts and has a better car in the Lucerne. I found a new article in C&D interesting. It was on the new lexus LS. They stated that you can hear the V8 when you stomp on it. I guess their $70k flagship isn't as quite as their camry knockoff es350....go figure...