Intrigue... 3.5 vs 3.8?

[Whistler]

I'm on a quest for a W-body daily driver with nice power, good looks, reliability, and a bit of luxury. I found a bunch of nice Impala LSs but they are all a little on the pricey side...

But I also found a pair of Intrigues that I really like... They are both almost identical, silver, similar features, almost exact same price... the big difference is one is the 3.5L Shortstar and the other is the good old 3.8.

I know the 3.5 is well known for its smoothness, and the 3.8 for durability. How do they compare power/torque wise? Which one would be more reliable? Does the 3.5 have the same expensive problems as its bigger Cadillac cousin?

[Drew Dowdell]

the 3.5 is a good engine, but sometimes oil filters are hard to find...

[trinacriabob]

Here we go again, heading down the "Great Divide." First, the Intrigue, when outfitted in a nice color and with nice but not too garish accessories, is a truly beautiful vehicle.

I suggest the 3800 V6....emphatically. This would only limit you to the 1998 model and the first portion of the 1999 model year.

I have rented a handful of each of these. In ordinary driving, you don't notice the difference. The 3.5 seems to be better in the mid-range pass...stomp on the pedal and you will feel some pushback into the seat. Again, I beg to differ...the 3.5 is smoother, but not by leaps and bounds. The 3800 is hushed enough in this vehicle.

Neither, in this range of model years, is totally trouble free. The 3800, in Series II form, may have intake manifold problems.

However, problems encountered with a 3.5 will be more expensive as the engine itself is newer and more complicated. The reason why I assert this belief stems from only one experience....but it was an eye-opener.

I had a neighbor (an elderly woman) in a Sacramento suburb that had a silver 1999 Intrigue I would salivate over. I spoke to her every once in a while about her car. I finally told her if she wanted to get rid of it or trade it in, to come to me first. She beamed and even added "and it's got a new engine...the dealership replaced the first one under warranty." At this point, I demurely asked if I could lift the hood. Staring back at me was a 3.5 litre V6. An engine blowing up in a NEW car is INEXCUSABLE. I don't know of ANY 3800s that have gone kaput under the warranty period....nor within the first 150,000 miles of operation for that matter.

Good luckand let us know what you decide to do!

[CARBIZ]

I would go with the 3.5 and try to get a 2001 or 2002 with the Stabilitrak. GM tried to forge the high road by offering that amazing feature on a sub $30k car and it flopped, but it is a good feature to have.

As a used car, they are an incredible deal and there should be lots of them coming off 4 year leases now.

[Robert Hall]

I would go with the 3.5 and try to get a 2001 or 2002 with the Stabilitrak.  GM tried to forge the high road by offering that amazing feature on a sub $30k car and it flopped, but it is a good feature to have.

  As a used car, they are an incredible deal and there should be lots of them coming off 4 year leases now.

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A friend of mine is looking for one of those now..he has a '98 with 150k miles, and wants another one with low(er) miles for a daily driver..

[Paolino]

I don't know of ANY 3800s that have gone kaput under the warranty period....nor within the first 150,000 miles of operation for that matter.

Good luckand let us know what you decide to do!

185103[/snapback]

Hmmm... parents 3800 in their 92 LeSabre Limited has run like crap the past 20,000 miles... and according to the mechanic, it's on its way out. They treat their cars fairly well, and I think they only have about 130,000 on the odometer.

[trinacriabob]

Hmmm... parents 3800 in their 92 LeSabre Limited has run like crap the past 20,000 miles... and according to the mechanic, it's on its way out.  They treat their cars fairly well, and I think they only have about 130,000 on the odometer.

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Why don't your parents switch mechanic? Didn't they have a big ABS bill with him too? (I ran a thread asking if I should get them and you indicated that about a year ago). What happened with that?

P, there's a big benefit to cheap insurance via maintenance. I am sure they change the oil. But I also get a spark plug change every 30,000 miles, whether it needs it or not. And, in between that, I change the fuel filter (they can get clogged) and the PCV valve (a few dollars). I am in the "process" of changing spark plug wires...they can cause a "bogging" under load, I learned the hard way.

The best thing to do is just do a spreadsheet...I am a little rigid and do spreadsheets, budgets, but it makes organizing life so much easier. I seriously don't think it's on the way out...it's probably just a fix that has been overlooked.

Viva all cast-iron Buick OHV 90 degree V6 engines! They're pretty tough little units.

[torobud]

The 3.8 in my Toro ran fine all the way to 185-190K (somewhere in there it lost most of the compression in the #1 cylinder) - and I sold it and it is still running now! (2 years later)

[razoredge]

Hmmm... parents 3800 in their 92 LeSabre Limited has run like crap the past 20,000 miles... and according to the mechanic, it's on its way out.  They treat their cars fairly well, and I think they only have about 130,000 on the odometer.

185486[/snapback]

Trinacriabob - "Why don't your parents switch mechanic? Didn't they have a big ABS bill with him too? (I ran a thread asking if I should get them and you indicated that about a year ago). What happened with that?"

Imagine that

Must be one hell of an engine to run like crap for 20,000 miles and still be tickin

Must be one hell of an engine if its been "on its way out" for 20,000 miles and only has 130,000, thats like 1/6th of its life.............

Wonder how many more years and how many more miles of "on its way out" it will go prolly got, melted piston, warped rod, flat cam lobes and .................sludge.........you all have seen the boat anchor commercial right ? Thats it, its prolly sludge, so much in the oil pan that the crank can harlly turn, thick as molassas..............

[trinacriabob]

Imagine that 

Must be one hell of an engine to run like crap for 20,000 miles and still be tickin

Must be one hell of an engine if its been "on its way out" for 20,000 miles and only has 130,000, thats like 1/6th of its life.............

Wonder how many more years and how many more miles of "on its way out" it will go  prolly got, melted piston, warped rod, flat cam lobes and .................sludge.........you all have seen the boat anchor commercial right ? Thats it, its prolly sludge, so much in the oil pan that the crank can harlly turn, thick as molassas..............

186522[/snapback]

I'm at 227,500 +/- right now. I'm shooting for 250,000 on the entire powertrain. I will treat it with kid gloves to get there as I want it to take me through a substantial relocation. Then I'll get the new car.

[ponchoman49]

The 3800's for the most part do run well past 200K easily and indeed are a great motor. But I have seen tons of them fail and have to be replaced. A good friend has been selling GM southern cars almost exclusively since the 70's so has seen first hand what seems to last and what fails. We have had numerous series II motors with as little as 60K with knocking bottom ends due to failed intake manifolds. Point being that anything can last forever or fail an early death. Even the 3100/3400 aren't immune. Some have over 200K and some are splitting camshafts with blown intakes. Anything is possible.

[trinacriabob]

We have had numerous series II motors with as little as 60K with knocking bottom ends due to failed intake manifolds.

Even the 3100/3400 aren't immune. Some have over 200K and some are splitting camshafts with blown intakes. Anything is possible.

213795[/snapback]

Everything I've ever read points the finger at the Series II. Mine is obviously Series I. Are those pretty much hassle free? (Closing in on 230K right now). Any news on Series III with electronic throttle control?

What's the weak link in the 3100/3400? I generally don't like those as much.

[caddycruiser]

If you have an Intrigue with the 3.8L, you have the Series II, and yes, that one has had problems in terms of the intake manifold failure--which can cause other issues. Once it's replaced (hopefully before more problems), you're usually set to go for a long time without issue, but it is one bug a bit too overly common to that 3.8L. Some are lucky and get away with no problems at all, but most run into it eventually. I have a customer with a pampered '99 LeSabre, for instance, with 65k miles on it that coolant just kept disappearing, only to eventually find out it was the infamous 3.8L plastic intake manifold issue. Once replaced, no more issues.

The Series I was well before that, I think from about '95 or so and earlier, and the Series III didn't start until the '04 Grand Prix.

[Brougham-Holiday]

The 3800 is a great engine, my uncle has one in his 1988 Delta 88 Royale with 331,781miles on it. I have had 2 cars with a 3800 and have been very happy with the engine. I would reccomend it to anyone.

[ponchoman49]

The original 3800 design debuted for 1988 as the top end motor for the Olds 98/Toronado, Buick Park Ave/Riviera and Pontiac Bonneville SE and SSE. This motor differed from the previous 3.8 liter V6 which was never reffered to as a 3800 by it's centrally located piston bores compared to the old engines offset split pin design and oil pan mounted balance shaft. It also featured 165 hp vs 150 and 210 torque vs 200 for the older engine. This version of the 3800 series I ran from 1988-1991 as was generally a bullitt proof design. Then in 1991 an upgraded 170 hp sequential port injected version of the series I debuted in the Park Ave/Riv and 98/Toro and later in the restyled 88 and LeSabre. This motor was good too except that it didn't have an EGR valve which caused problems of it's own. In 1993 the engine was given a newly designed plastic intake and a slight upgrade in torque to 225, was named tuned port, and was generally a good motor. These engines were better than the newer series II engines but did suffer leakes with high mileage and eventual intake replacements. The series II motor debuted for 1995 with less reciprocating mass, 5800 rpm redline instead of 5500 a new style upper and lower intake design, raized compression ratio and a host of other changes that raized output to 205 hp and 230 torque. This is the one to look out for if your considering a car with one. Oddly the 1995 LeSabre and Regal did not come with this engine but the Park Ave, Riv, Olds 98/88 and Pontiac Bonneville did. The dustbuster vans also did not get the series II motors and kept the old Series I tuned port version until the new 3400 replaced it in 1996. The series II lasted until 2005 in a variety of products and from my understanding all factory engines could have the intake issue at just about anytime in there life. In 2004 a series III 3800 was developed with a return to composite steel upper intake and redesigned lower intake, drive by wire throttle and a different computer and special digital bus wire harness first seen in the 2000 Impala/Monte that defies after market radios and even speakers. Curiously this new series III engine was rated at 5 less hp than the original series II engine(8 less in the Lucerne) but has the same torque. Also note that the supercharged 3800 debuted in the 1991 Park Ave with but 205 hp and quickly went up to 225 in 1994 and took on the series II upgrades in 1996. A series III Sc 3800 with 260 hp came alongside the NA motor but in the 2004 and up Grand Prix only with an upgraded supercharger. No other car got this engine which makes one wonder why they even bothered with the limitations of the 4T65 tranny and all. In all the Buick built 3.8 liter V6 has a long history behind it and in 1975 when GM bought back the blueprints of this engine from Jeep it under went a continual number of changes, upgrades and improvements to where it is today. It's a shame GM let it languish so long with no real design changes. Personally I would have liked to see how this engine would have responded to the same changes that Chevy does to the LS series of small blocks. This was supposed to happen in the coming years but someone somewhere pulled the plug for newer designed DOHC powerplants.

[Brougham-Holiday]

3800 was standard on 1988-1991 LeSabres, optional on 1988 Delta 88 and standard on 1989-1991 Delta 88 Models.

[razoredge]

3800 was standard on 1988-1991 LeSabres, optional on 1988 Delta 88 and standard on 1989-1991 Delta 88 Models.

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ponchoman49

Then in 1991 an upgraded 170 hp sequential port injected version of the series I debuted in the Park Ave/Riv and 98/Toro and later in the restyled 88 and LeSabre. This motor was good too except that it didn't have an EGR valve which caused problems of it's own. In 1993 the engine was given a newly designed plastic intake and a slight upgrade in torque to 225

Hang on now ! just a few things

There was left over 3.8's (LG3-3) in 88 that were used up in LeSabre Customs and base Delta 88's. 3800 (LN3-C)Standard in PA/Riviera and Regency/Toronado, not sure how it went for Bonneville, Id say most had LN3C. I never did see a '88 LeSabre or "88" with the old 3.8 but I know they were out there. That was the deal with that.

In 91 the "tuned port" "snakes intake" 3800 (L27) all had 170 hp / 225 lb ft torque. It was available on Regal (my 91 Limited had L27), standard in PA/Riviera and 98/Toronado and Reatta........in fact I'd have to look for awhile but I actually believe it debuted on some '90 Rivs and Toros.

[Satty]

I had a similar quandry this past week. We need another vehicle (the Rodeo died) and I found a 2000 Intrigue for a pretty good price. Only problem was that it has the 3.5 while I would prefer the bulletproof 3.8.

[trinacriabob]

I had a similar quandry this past week.  We need another vehicle (the Rodeo died) and I found a 2000 Intrigue for a pretty good price.  Only problem was that it has the 3.5 while I would prefer the bulletproof 3.8.

217202[/snapback]

Totally understandable. How's your kid doing, BTW?

[bcs296]

So it seems apparent that both engines have their fair share of good cases and bad.

There have been horror stories about the Series II 3800, as well as horror stories with the 3.5.

My best friend has been driving a '99 Intrigue with the 3800 for 2 years now, and with around 150k it's still running fine and has yet to have a serious problem.

My dad also has a '97 STS with 130k trouble free miles on its Northstar.

Looks like a flip of a coin to me, but I would probably go for the 3.5 because I think it sounds better and runs smoother, not to mention I'd like the better mid-range and top end.

Edited December 3, 2006 by bcs296

[ponchoman49]

Hang on now !  just a few things

There was left over 3.8's (LG3-3) in 88 that were used up in LeSabre Customs and base Delta 88's. 3800 (LN3-C)Standard in PA/Riviera and Regency/Toronado, not sure how it went for Bonneville, Id say most had LN3C. I never did see a '88 LeSabre or "88" with the old 3.8 but I know they were out there. That was the deal with that.

In 91 the "tuned port" "snakes intake" 3800 (L27) all had 170 hp / 225 lb ft torque. It was available on Regal (my 91 Limited had L27), standard in PA/Riviera and 98/Toronado and Reatta........in fact I'd have to look for awhile but I actually believe it debuted on some '90 Rivs and Toros.

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Yes, it looks like in my quick typing I didn't quite word things the way I should have. Indeed the 1991 version of the (L27) 3800 had tuned port injection with the snake runners but were rated at 170 hp and 220 torque. This engine debuted on the new 1991 redesigned Park Ave, 98, Toronado, Riviera/Reatta and of course the Regal Sedan. The 1991 88/LeSabre still used the old 165 hp version of the 3800 and in 1992 got the Tuned port motor without EGR valve which caused some big time headaches. In 1993 this engine was revised with a different intake and gained 5 lbs ft of torque to 225. I have some original Buick showroom catalogs that confirm this. I have yet to see a tuned port motor in any 1990 Riv or Toronado but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I also could swear to have seen some late in the model run 1990 Regal sedans with 3800 tuned ports in garages for repair so this engine may have found it's way into the Toros and Rivs in that year. One thing is for certain, Buick really spent a lot of time developing this motor in the late 80's and throughtout the 90's but seemed to have given up for the new Millenium. One has to wonder why?

[zoomtm]

Have you considered a last generation Regal?

[I hope GMRULES again]

I spied a 2002 Intrigue yesterday at a local GM dealer for $8995. It only has 39K on it. Excellent condition overall but I don't know anything about the shortstar so I'm not sure if I should chase it.

Help?

[Guest can someone help me?]

Was the 3.5 litre motor the motor offered in the 2001 Intrigue?

 

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, Guest can someone help me? said:

Was the 3.5 litre motor the motor offered in the 2001 Intrigue?

 

yes.