Top Republican leaders sending message to big 3:

[andy82471]

Top GOP leaders sending message to Big 3: Drop dead

Advertisement

GET FREE HEADLINES BY E-MAIL

Printer friendly version

Comment on this story

Send this story to a friend

Get Home Delivery

B ig-name Republicans are tramping around Michigan -- Karl Rove is expected at a fundraiser today in Grosse Pointe, Republican National Committee chairman Ken Mehlman is campaigning for Senate hopeful Mike Bouchard and President Bush is rumored to be planning a campaign swing next month.

But meet with Detroit's automakers? Nah, why should the president care whether U.S.-owned automakers, burdened by fierce foreign competition and cumulative decisions that threaten to swamp them, are fighting for their collective lives? Instead, key Republicans and the White House are reprising President Ford's message to New York back in the mid-'70s: "Drop dead."

Such cynicism toward a bedrock industry -- let the Blue-Staters wither -- would be comical if it wasn't so misguided, even dumb.

Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., told the Washington Post that "there's a new definition of the American auto industry. Twenty-five years ago, it was the Big Three companies in Detroit. Now (it's) any company that makes a substantial number of cars and trucks in the U.S. and has a big payroll here, pays big taxes here and buys supplies here."

Nissan equals GM?

Meaning, evidently, that the Nissan operations in Tennessee and the new Hyundai plant in Alabama are indistinguishable from GM and Ford. Politically, perhaps, but not economically.

Added Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Alabama: "The way (Detroit automakers) do business has to change or they won't be around. The competition has been brought to our shores. There is a lot that our automobile manufacturers can learn in the world."

There's also a lot that Red State Republicans could learn about the Detroit automakers and their legacy commitments to retirees and active employees, namely that they're not easily shed this side of bankruptcy.

But it's easier to ignore context, demonize unions, embrace the new guys from overseas who don't carry the same baggage and then give Detroit a condescending geography lesson -- as if the No. 1 player in China, GM, doesn't know the business is global.

Different set of rules

In any other major auto-producing nation, politicians don't ignore the concerns of their auto industry. Not in France and Germany, where nationalism infuses economic policy. And not in Japan or South Korea, where manipulating currencies and erecting trade barriers is acceptable to help the home team -- and Detroit isn't asking for either one.

Here? The president won't meet with the bosses of General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and the Chrysler Group. But he'll sit astride a Harley, visit a Nissan truck plant, herald the Toyota engine that won the Indy 500, campaign for Republicans and then have his press secretary swear there's no snub of Detroit.

Rep. John Dingell ain't buying it. "Manufacturing is going to hell in this country, and the president just sits there fiddling while Rome burns," the Dearborn Democrat told me.

That's debatable (as Sens. Alexander and Shelby would attest). What isn't is that however the recapitalization of Detroit ends, no credit will be due to the Washington GOP power crowd.

Daniel Howes' column runs Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. He can be reached at [email protected].

More Insiders Headlines

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...382/1148/AUTO01

[tmp]

The profits go back to Japan, no matter how many American flags they wave.

[Variance]

The profits go back to Japan, no matter how many American flags they wave.

184001[/snapback]

It isn't quite that cut-and-dry...

[Flybrian]

Yet the douchebag sure loves riding in that armoured Cadillac, doesn't he? Maybe the Connecticut-born faux Texan would rather have a Tundra and a Maybach limo to match his new foreign-designed helicopter.

Sorry, but it does piss me off.

[haypops]

Maybe if he had to rebuild his own engine just once, then he would understand.

[Derek77]

Ahh, so now it's the presidents fault. It's so clear to me know. The bastard.

This is the dumbest article I've read here lately. "Nah, why should the president care whether U.S.-owned automakers, burdened by fierce foreign competition..." Are you kidding me?!?! The poor, poor U.S.-owned automakers are being burdened by the evil, big mean foreign competition. How retarded it that statement? The president should have waved his magic wand and make everthing better. "Here, let fix all your screw ups in the pasted poor, little U.S.-owned automakers. I'll also raise the minimum wage to $7 so your union can all recieve a pay raise. Their, now all your troubles are gone."

Give me a f cking break.

[Robert Hall]

Yet the douchebag sure loves riding in that armoured Cadillac, doesn't he? Maybe the Connecticut-born faux Texan would rather have a Tundra and a Maybach limo to match his new foreign-designed helicopter.

Sorry, but it does piss me off.

184006[/snapback]

Nah, Dubya has an Ford Super Duty Crew Cab and an Expedition at his ranch in Texas (the SD seems to be the poster truck of right-wing red staters).

Edited August 23, 2006 by moltar

[haypops]

The president should have waved his magic wand and make everthing better. "Here, let fix all your screw ups in the pasted poor, little U.S.-owned automakers.

While I agree that any President has limited abilities to solve all problems, this president's statement that American cars suck was not helpful. I suppose he could have relieved the local manufacturers disadvantage with universal health care, but the other party would never have let him.

I'll also raise the minimum wage to $7 so your union can all recieve a pay raise

Minimum wage workers seldom have union representation.

[Derek77]

Minimum wage workers seldom have union representation.

184035[/snapback]

Union worker's pay is based off of the national minimum wage. If it goes up to $7, then they get a pay raise to "offset" the difference.

Not to get stuck on minimum wages or anything, but if politicians are so concerned about a living wage, why not just make it $15 an hour instead of $7? You can't live off of $7.25 or whatever they want it to be. You know why? Inflation, that's why.

Sorry, I answered my own question.

[regfootball]

Yet the douchebag sure loves riding in that armoured Cadillac, doesn't he? Maybe the Connecticut-born faux Texan would rather have a Tundra and a Maybach limo to match his new foreign-designed helicopter.

Sorry, but it does piss me off.

184006[/snapback]

his motorcade was 200 feet from my eyeballs yesterday and all his posse was American brand vehicles. sort of hypocritical, eh?

[tmp]

The President, Senate and Congress (Republican and Democatically controlled versions alike) could put the pressure on the Japanese to quit keeping the yen artificially low.

[haypops]

I assume the value of the yen has limited effects on Toyota cars like the Camry and Corolla, and trucks that are made in the United States with american parts like Harrison, Delco, Delphi (Toyota is there 2nd or 3rd largest coustomer). Perhaps cars like Infinity, Lexus, etc. are more effected by this issue.

[balthazar]

Ahh, so now it's the presidents fault. It's so clear to me know. The bastard......

So the alternative is to not only do absolutely nothing whatsoever, on any front, but instead announce that everything from the American Industry is substandard & uncompetitive??? Effectively slam/flame the largest nationwide employeer in the last 100 (98) years?

This must be your president; because he sure as sh!t isn't mine.

[CARBIZ]

The enormity of this issue, and the total apathy on the part of those who are in a position to do something about leveling the playing field, is astounding.

When Japan Inc stamps out GM and Ford, I wonder which industry will be next? When the next President has to go begging to the Prime Minister of Japan to build the Army a few tanks I wonder if anyone in Washington will finally realize that maybe there WAS something to this conspiracy idea with MITI.

Just ask RCA. Or Electrohome. Or Admiral.

[mustang84]

Apparently Toyota's 20,000 or so employees plus whatever Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai have matter more than 100+ years of Detroit auto history, hundreds of thousands of workers, and millions of retirees. Might as well start stocking up on plywood to board up the Glass House and the RenCen, just in case. Good bye Michigan and Ohio. The rust belt gets even rustier, while the sows in Washington sit there scratching their ass.

Our government is officially inept.

[Derek77]

So the alternative is to not only do absolutely nothing whatsoever, on any front, but instead announce that everything from the American Industry is substandard & uncompetitive??? Effectively slam/flame the largest nationwide employeer in the last 100 (98) years?

This must be your president; because he sure as sh!t isn't mine.

184235[/snapback]

Where the hell did I say that?!?! In the article, the columnist, says that the U.S.-owned automakers are being burdened by fierce foreign competition. How about this, MAKE A BETTER PRODUCT!!!!

I understand that everything isn't great and changes need to be made on the policy front, but to blame all your problems on this administration and republicans, and not look in the mirror to see why you have problems is completely irresponsible and down right retarded.

This is another dumb statement, "But he'll sit astride a Harley, visit a Nissan truck plant, herald the Toyota engine that won the Indy 500, campaign for Republicans and then have his press secretary swear there's no snub of Detroit." Ummm, maybe he's "heralding" the HONDA engine (no Toyota engines) because it runs on ethanol, just like the American built ethanol vehicles the president keeps talking about. But of course everything that you read online must be true. Also, he can't do anything else that deals with vehicle manufacturing, without first meeting with the Big 3? Get real.

Edited August 24, 2006 by Derek77

[ZL-1]

While I agree that any President has limited abilities to solve all problems, this president's statement that American cars suck was not helpful.

184035[/snapback]

President Bush's comment was and is irrelevant to public perception of American cars improving or not. It simply mirrors what public perception is today, as shown by the declines in market share of US automakers. Edited August 24, 2006 by ZL-1

[Matt276]

At the same time, we can not say that GM cars are attractive. Why GM, in 2006, can't build a car like the Accord?

There is still some cheap interiors or pushrod engines....always something wrong.

The president was a bit right, if you build the best products, you won't have problems selling them.

Too many businessmen run GM, not enough car passionates.

[Robert Hall]

Apparently Toyota's 20,000 or so employees plus whatever Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai have matter more than 100+ years of Detroit auto history, hundreds of thousands of workers, and millions of retirees.  Might as well start stocking up on plywood to board up the Glass House and the RenCen, just in case.  Good bye Michigan and Ohio.  The rust belt gets even rustier, while the sows in Washington sit there scratching their ass.

Our government is officially inept.

184270[/snapback]

Ohio's got Honda, though, an advantage over Michigan, I think..

[haypops]

President Bush's comment was and is irrelevant to public perception of American cars improving or not.

184530[/snapback]

Although I am obviously a partisan (see signature file), the following is meant to be non-partisan. If President Bush said it was a nice day in the rose garden, 30% of the people in this country would open an umbrella. Likewise if Bush were to eat a baby live in the Rose garden, another 30% of the country would say he did the right thing. The other 40% of the country would sleep through both incidents.

[cmattson]

Ask yourself this:

Why is this administration so bent on helping the big energy firms, but won't lift a finger to help Detroit out? We gave the oil industry big tax breaks + let them craft out energy policies. I guess Detroit should've gave more..

American auto manufacturers aren't looking for a handout. They are looking for real solutions to American problems: healthcare, prescription drug costs, and pension reform. Because they are the largest of American employers, they are affected more severly by these issues than virtually any other business in this country.

It's easy to shout out "it's the products", but doesn't Ford sell almost 1m pickups every year -- and GM the same? I think the top-selling Toyota/Honda vehicles come in at around 400k in sales every year -- and GM/Ford's pickup sales generate far more profit that Toyota/Honda does with their cars.. so it shows you that either (1) Ford/GM are seriously bloated by size/inefficiency and/or (2) Toyota/Honda operations in Japan give them an competitive advantage.

Before deciding to what degree option #1 or #2 is responsible, take a look at virtually any "legacy" service-heavy industry. How have your airlines been doing lately? Education costs? Police? Virtually all of those areas have soaring costs. GM spends more on heathcare (on a per-vehicle basis) than it does steel. You don't have to be pro-GM to realize that there's something seriously wrong with that.

Pay no attention to Detroit folks. We've got serious issues to deal with: gay marriage, flag burning, and repealling the estate tax for the 0.25% that qualify for it. Yup -- that's real leadership for ya.. really tackling the tough issues facing our nation.

PERSONALLY, I'M EMBARASSED.

[Polish_Kris]

At the same time, we can not say that GM cars are attractive. Why GM, in 2006, can't build a car like the Accord?

There is still some cheap interiors or pushrod engines....always something wrong.

The president was a bit right, if you build the best products, you won't have problems selling them.

Too many businessmen run GM, not enough car passionates.

184548[/snapback]

YES!!! you got it exactly on the money...!

[Polish_Kris]

Why GM, in 2006, can't build a car like the Accord?

184548[/snapback]

Saving money

[ZL-1]

Although I am obviously a partisan (see signature file), the following is meant to be non-partisan.  If President Bush said it was a nice day in the rose garden, 30% of the people in this country would open an umbrella.  Likewise if Bush were to eat a baby live in the Rose garden, another  30% of the country would say he did the right thing.  The other 40% of the country would sleep through both incidents.

184564[/snapback]

I think your comment is valid when talking Taxes, Social Security, Foreign Policy, and similar issues. I don't think it's valid in consumer decisions, whether they relate to cars, refrigerators, or whatever.

[zhawk]

Without diving to deply into politics, I have this to say.

Our government hasn't been receptive to the automobile industry for years. It doesn't matter which party or political figure. They've at best paid lip service to supporting our national industries as a whole.

We, as the people, need to support these industries better by ensuring that our leaders know how important we find them. If they start hearing that we care, they will, if only to get our votes.

Haypops has a valid point. Heck, if Bush (or Hillary on the other hand) said GM and Ford deserved our support, you can bet some people would refuse to buy their products. Partisan politics are insane that way.

BTW, all of this is my own opinion and in no way represents anyone but me. Take it for what its worth.

[ellives]

You're kidding, right? On what basis are you saying consumer decisions would draw different responses? Hell even with all the bad media, GM and Ford still sell a $h!load of vehicles. If your statement was true, why would anybody buy anything but Toyota or Honda?

I think your comment is valid when talking Taxes, Social Security, Foreign Policy, and similar issues. I don't think it's valid in consumer decisions, whether they relate to cars, refrigerators, or whatever.

184772[/snapback]

[ellives]

Bull$h!. Whatever the US president says out loud lends credence to the point of the comment. In this case his comments reinforce to the car-buying public what they're hearing in the media, whether there's truth to it or not.

He's just a cowboy who goes off half-cocked shooting off his mouth about things he's not smart enough to understand. I can't wait until he's out of office.

President Bush's comment was and is irrelevant to public perception of American cars improving or not. It simply mirrors what public perception is today, as shown by the declines in market share of US automakers.

184530[/snapback]

[-Camaro-]

Where the hell did I say that?!?! In the article, the columnist, says that the U.S.-owned automakers are being burdened by fierce foreign competition. How about this, MAKE A BETTER PRODUCT!!!!

I understand that everything isn't great and changes need to be made on the policy front, but to blame all your problems on this administration and republicans, and not look in the mirror to see why you have problems is completely irresponsible and down right retarded.

This is another dumb statement, "But he'll sit astride a Harley, visit a Nissan truck plant, herald the Toyota engine that won the Indy 500, campaign for Republicans and then have his press secretary swear there's no snub of Detroit." Ummm, maybe he's "heralding" the HONDA engine (no Toyota engines) because it runs on ethanol, just like the American built ethanol vehicles the president keeps talking about. But of course everything that you read online must be true. Also, he can't do anything else that deals with vehicle manufacturing, without first meeting with the Big 3? Get real.

184360[/snapback]

They do make great products, it's just they're always cheap Japanese knock offs. The new malibu spyshots prove that point.... :|

[razoredge]

It is the Bushmans fault that he is making assinine depatriotising comments and refuses to level the playing field.................didnt anyone hear that he is close friends with the Japanese leading asshole, whoever the hell he is. Great ! "Screw these generations of Americans, this guy is my "friend" and I need favorable trade agreements to keep my life easy..............after all I got this big mess in the mid east..............I dont need anymore, and the moneys just right............"

Korea is building Nuc's and plants in the US in the same breath ?...................roll over FDR and Eisenhower............all you fought for has gone stark raving mad.

All the boys that died on Normandy and the Islands, in the air and on the ground did it so their ancestors could get screwed out of their pensions and job futures because smirkin doeboy needs support abroad to prove some point about the mid east that ..................he ain'ta gonna prove !

HELLO !

OK forget all that, cause thats not whats going on....................

dont blame him or just the republicans

See that it is, all the puppet masters from the past 3 decades that have made their fortunes selling off the soul of this country, exporting jobs and importing immigrants, both legal and illegal to keep the labor rates down..............

After all there is a real lack of money in this country.................no way in hell is their enough to go around.......................

The author addressed the problem.. These other countries and their industries are not burdoned with the economical growth and its resulting socially economic better way of life (American dream) that came about during the 50's 60's and 70's. Now, so many are cashing in on their promised due, which was part of their pay package, be it elderly health care or retirement. This is the bill of good these people were sold, this was the American way, these were great years. Now because there has been no continuence, due to the loss of jobs in these industries, the contributions from current workers is not there to support continuence. Instead neccesary R&D dollars and quality dollars are going to support our ever increasingly fat health care, insurance system...............which employees ?.................lots of middle easterners.......................

What the heck is going on in this town ?

Yea I can see the full picture, its not current smirky boy and his croonies, they didnt start it, but their just sitting and watching it. yea the product is suffereing, but why ? I just told you. Balance the scales and the money will be there to improve product, keep loosing sales as well as profits due to our corrupt healthcare and investment system and your not going to have the economical power to beat the odds.

I try to be positive but I really do believe I see the writting on the wall. I know everyones tired of hearing it but ................tic toc..... tic toc...... tic toc..... tic toc

Theres more than one way to skin a cat, bullets are for kittens and gang wars, economic war is how you win the rights to make America yours. Come'on come'on listen to the money talk.

Shall we bow defeated ?

Edited August 27, 2006 by razoredge

[CARBIZ]

Allrighty then, step away from the bottle...................................

I'll be the first to admit that we (North) Americans have gotten fat and lazy over the past 50 years. We've had it very easy. Europe was bombed into the Dark Ages twices in the past century - and, yes, we helped to rebuild them.

Washington (and Ottawa) certainly seem to have their priorities a little confused. While we Western nations bicker over Kyoto, NAFTA and other issues that only seem important to a select few people, the real business of getting on with business is happening over in Tokyo and Bejing.

There is no question in my mind that the potential for us being over run is there. However, there is a big HOWEVER.

North America is rich. Very rich. Alberta has more oil than Saudi Arabia. The mid-west could feed the world with its grain. The steel mills (what's left of them, anyway) and coal fields of Pennsylvania, etc. can last us for 500 years.

The ingenuity of us North Americans is legendary.

All we have to do is tap into that and band together.

And stop buying imported goods.

That's it for now. I am into my second vodka...

[razoredge]

Allrighty then, step away from the bottle...................................

185297[/snapback]

I realize my, to the point approach and random unarranged points may seem strange to most. Make no mistake, Im one of the soberest people around. I had my industry crushed by this BS and my area has had other industries crushed. I have a clear picture. I know whos making money and how they are doing it. No one can ever offer a legitamate arguement to anything I have said. Unless you consider "its OK, read a book on economics and you will see" an argument. My check book is the only book on economics I need to read.

I didnt get lazy, I got put to pasture in the middle of my prime productive years. Along with thousands of others.

[Derek77]

I realize my, to the point approach and random unarranged points may seem strange to most. Make no mistake, Im one of the soberest people around. I had my industry crushed by this BS and my area has had other industries crushed. I have a clear picture. I know whos making money and how they are doing it. No one can ever offer a legitamate arguement to anything I have said. Unless you consider "its OK, read a book on economics and you will see" an argument. My check book is the only book on economics I need to read.

I didnt get lazy, I got put to pasture in the middle of my prime productive years. Along with thousands of others.

185315[/snapback]

And what was your occupation?

Edited August 27, 2006 by Derek77

[regfootball]

Allrighty then, step away from the bottle...................................

  I'll be the first to admit that we (North) Americans have gotten fat and lazy over the past 50 years.  We've had it very easy.  Europe was bombed into the Dark Ages twices in the past century - and, yes, we helped to rebuild them.

  Washington (and Ottawa) certainly seem to have their priorities a little confused.  While we Western nations bicker over Kyoto, NAFTA and other issues that only seem important to a select few people, the real business of getting on with business is happening over in Tokyo and Bejing.

  There is no question in my mind that the potential for us being over run is there.  However, there is a big HOWEVER.

  North America is rich.  Very rich.  Alberta has more oil than Saudi Arabia.  The mid-west could feed the world with its grain.  The steel mills (what's left of them, anyway) and coal fields of Pennsylvania, etc. can last us for 500 years.

  The ingenuity of us North Americans is legendary.

  All we have to do is tap into that and band together.

  And stop buying imported goods.

  That's it for now.  I am into my second vodka...

185297[/snapback]

how many you on? I figure its time for me to hit the fridge and start.

[Derek77]

how many you on?  I figure its time for me to hit the fridge and start.

185331[/snapback]

He's almost done with the first one now. Number 2, here I come.

[Mr.Krinkle]

its all a a double edged sword. it takes more than one person to make a difference even if it is the president. besides if he said i love ford and/or chevy.

theyre the greatest trucks and cars in the world....how many people would solely stop buying them because he said that. or at least raise awareness.

the product has to speak for itself. would you care if a guy that you knew was a retard said something about anything and that it was good or bad? would you take his word for it? thats why they say any press is good...or any publicity is good publixcitiy. however it goes.

you be the judge.

just to go on a little further, the fact gm was number one for so long and they lost, it could so happen to anyone else. they were the best for a reason and if they keep at it they will be there again while the others faulter. all with a grain of salt. time will tell.

you be the judge. and if it really is about politics then tell your congress people.

let them know because they want your vote and the majority wins. what if every senator was aware of the situations and the inherent complexities... and that their political life was at stake? what then?

i dont want to get too wordy about this but sometime i worry about the future of this country. and i usually dont say things like that.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Sixty8panther]

Added Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Alabama: "The way (Detroit automakers)

do business has to change or they won't be around. The competition has

been brought to our shores. There is a lot that our automobile

manufacturers can learn in the world."

What? Like how to kick sand into Toyota's eyes, punch them their kidneys,

take their wallet and then run away with their car keys& jewlery like they

have done thanks to Consumer Reports & the rest of the Media on thier

payroll, unfair business practices all across the board & quality control

problem/warranty claim coverups?

[Satty]

Its worked for them, hasn't it?

[Sixty8panther]

In order to prevent a suspension becaused of my

foul launguage & violent reaction to post that I've

quoted here, I've decided to answer Matt276's

questions using mostly photos.

At the same time, we can not say that GM cars are attractive. Why GM, in 2006, can't build a car like the Accord?

184548[/snapback]

The Honda Accord is not a great example of a good Automobile...

Hate to be the one to tell you it's an appliance for people who either

can't check their own oil or tire pressure or for morons who like to

use 2 buckets of bondo & a 7-piece faux-carbon-fibre body kit & 19"

rims to customize a 4-cylinder sedan.

Oh... and GM already did build a car like the Accord... they built a

2002 Accord in 1992 but they called it a Buick Skylark.

There is still some cheap interiors or pushrod engines....always something wrong.

184548[/snapback]

I think that's enough discussion of Honda interiors.

Always the pushrod cheap-shot. Hey Honda... how about we duke it

out on the track at LeMans... oh that's right the only real "street-cred"

your V-tech motors have is with the Fast&Furious crowd and you don't

race production based cars because they suck on & off the track.

Honda's DOCH 4/6/10 cylinder motor vs. GM's pushrod V8... anytime anywhere!

Also let's see a true "competitor" to these vehicles from Honda:

I mean price being the same... economics matter in the real world.

CTS-V

GTO

C6 / Z06

Making fun of GM's Pushrod V8s in 2006 makes you look like an

ass-clown. Maybe in 1982 you could poke fun at production GM

V8s but in 2006 it's just evidence of how ignorant you are.

The president was a bit right, if you build the best products, you won't have problems selling them.

184548[/snapback]

Too many businessmen run GM, not enough car passionates.

184548[/snapback]

If by "car passionates" you mean people who think that Honda Accords

are good vehicles $/$ then I say NO THANKS! On the other hand if you

mean true acr enthusiasts who have gasoline running through their

veins then I say:

[Robert Hall]

Have you driven a current Accord, '68? I certainly wouldn't compare on to a '90s GM POS like the Skylark... it's a much better car than the current Malibu, for example. The Accord with the V6 and 6-speed manual drives quite nicely, has a well-done interior, and makes an all-around good general purpose car.. I know you have an anti-fwd fixation (I'm not a big fan myself, but I understand it's what the majority of buyers prefer in a family car), but your blathering is pretty laughable sometimes...

[ellives]

You "understand" what the media has fed you with their eyedroppers. This is also why the "majority of buyers prefer" fwd: they've "heard" fwd is better. Try asking anyone one of these "majority of buyers" WHY they want AWD and I *guarantee* they'll have laughable answers if they can come up with anything at all.

*THIS* is what is laughable.

Have you driven a current Accord, '68?  I certainly wouldn't compare on to a '90s GM POS like the Skylark...  it's a much better car than the current Malibu, for example.  The Accord with the V6 and 6-speed manual drives quite nicely, has a well-done interior, and makes an all-around good general purpose car..  I know you have an anti-fwd fixation (I'm not a big fan myself, but I understand it's what the majority of buyers prefer in a family car), but your blathering is pretty laughable sometimes...

185411[/snapback]

[Robert Hall]

You "understand" what the media has fed you with their eyedroppers. This is also why the "majority of buyers prefer" fwd: they've "heard" fwd is better. Try asking anyone one of these "majority of buyers" WHY they want AWD and I *guarantee* they'll have laughable answers if they can come up with anything at all.

*THIS* is what is laughable.

185422[/snapback]

Winter traction is the answer I've heard most often as to why people want FWD, AWD or 4WD..nothing 'laughable' about that..

Back in the day, I drove RWD in the winter with snow tires all around...people today don't want to mess with snow tires, so that is why they like FWD or AWD with all-season tires..

Besides, haven't people always relied on the media for their facts about cars--whether it is from Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, the local newspaper, or more recently, blogs and forums like these?

Most car buyers aren't mechanics...

Anyway, I don't see the point in the constant slagging on the Accord..it's a perfectly reasonable car--good reputation, reliable, safe, well-built, great resale value, easy on the eyes inside and out, and pleasant to drive..not an enthusiasts car, but fine for the average car buyer. GM needs to build something that is truly competitive with it, and the Aura defintiely seems to be close, with room for improvement...

Edited August 27, 2006 by moltar

[ellives]

Winter traction is the answer I've heard most often as to why people want FWD, AWD or 4WD..nothing 'laughable' about that.. 

Ok. Fast forward to the 21st century. Traction control eliminated the advantage FWD had and eliminated the torque steer problem FWD brought with it. (AWD notwithstanding.)

Back in the day, I drove RWD in the winter with snow tires all around...people today don't want to mess with snow tires, so that is why they like FWD or AWD with all-season tires..

Besides, haven't people always relied on the media for their facts about cars--whether it is from Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, the local newspaper, or more recently, blogs and forums like these?

Most car buyers aren't mechanics...

No. Most aren't. Most are sheep or lemmings.

Anyway, I don't see the point in the constant slagging on the Accord..it's a perfectly reasonable car--good reputation, reliable, safe, well-built, great resale value, easy on the eyes inside and out, and pleasant to drive..not an enthusiasts car, but fine for the average car buyer.  GM needs to build something that is truly competitive with it, and the Aura defintiely seems to be close, with room for improvement...

Everything can be improved on. Otherwise we'd all be driving 1972 Chevy Impalas. GM is building better cars than they ever have. Does anybody but GM enthusiastics actually know about it?

Oh and by the way, check out the October 2006 edition (why do they ship October's issue before September has even arrived?) of Motor Trend. The Solstice GXP won the head-to-head against the BMW Z4 and the Nissan 350Z.

Something is happening... at GM.

[CARBIZ]

I hate beating this subject to death, but a Malibu LS is $18,500 in this market and the Accord is $25,000. For $6,500, I'm sorry, but the Accord is a POS.

Consumers are being led by their noses and being told what to like. AWD is completely stupid unless you live in the Himalayas. I had a 4WD Blazer, once upon a time, and I got stuck in a blizzard because it had silly "all-season" tires.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what GM is building today (except possibly the Uplander, but then for $10,000 less than a Sienna I would say it is a helluva buy!) but the snotty, bug up their asses media carp about 18 speed transmissions and electric steering.

I am currently driving a 4 cylinder, 4 spd automatic Malibu and, quite frankly, I don't see why anybody NEEDS or REQUIRES more car. It gets 40 (real) mpg, rides well, has lots of pep, has all the power toys - really, why would anyone deliberately spend $6,500 MORE for an Accord? ABS? The "H" on the hood?

While on this rant, I watched the clowns on that stupid BBC road show (sorry, I've forgotten the name - I had WAY too much to drink last night) and they loved the Element and only lamented that it currently isn't available in the UK.

Lucky them, I say.

[razoredge]

Just the fact that this topic went from wittle bushy being an ass face to yet another FWD/RWD/AWD debate just proves how the idiot and all the idiots for that matter get elected, and then get away with doing all the wrong things and ignoring the important things..........................................

Sometimes Im just so proud to be an a Me rican

Im with Carbiz on the price issue but I gotta say that Malibu is a very uninspireing styled car...............the Max is somewhat more acceptable but the plain jane Malibu is about as invigorating as its nearly famous ancestor...............the Chevette

The sooner Chevy can rid itself of that body shell the better.

Perhaps we could build a great big pile with them, a Great Pyramid of sorts ................and have wittle smirkin Dwey and ALL his croonies burried far beneath.

[Matt276]

Hey '68, I've always liked GM's pushrod V-8. My problem is with the V6, there is no way GM can have a solid contender in the FWD midsized market with a pushrod 3.5 or 3.9L engine.

Not going to work.

As for the interiors, Honda uses high quality materials. Their designs are sometimes ugly, but never look or feel cheap.

[Sixty8panther]

Moltar:

I think CARBIZ did a god job of explaining my rationale.

As far as FWD-vs-RWD... well I think FWD is a plague unleashed

upon us by the idiotic masses, bean counters & people who are

so damn spooked by snow they piss their pants when more than

3" are on the ground and they have to walk to their mailbox.

I've driven through snow in RWD cars that technically should not

be able to negotiate snow at all and I've driven them with 90%

bald tires... the times I got stuck it was as a result of my stupidity

or cockyness... not the car's drivewheels.

As far as the Skylark comparison... I was just making the rear

tail light observation. Compare the butts.

[Sixty8panther]

Hey '68, I've always liked GM's pushrod V-8. My problem is with the V6, there is no way GM can have a solid contender in the FWD midsized market with a pushrod 3.5 or 3.9L engine.

185568[/snapback]

That I will agree with... GM's V6s seem to always be less than 3/4s

of an LS1 V8 or even 5.3.

[razoredge]

flatlanders

[ellives]

Ask yourself this:

Why is this administration so bent on helping the big energy firms, but won't lift a finger to help Detroit out?  We gave the oil industry big tax breaks + let them craft out energy policies.  I guess Detroit should've gave more..

Actually the answer to this is quite simple: shortsightedness and greed.

The assessment has correctly been made that unstable and/or spiraling energy prices have and *immediate* effect on consumer prices and therefore voters mindsets when election time comes. We've seen this week how "great" it feels now when gas prices are under 3 bucks (as horrible as THAT sounds.)

The problems of a failure of GM or Ford will create are longer term and the politicians can blame the failures on "other" people like management for instance. The problem (and people have such short memories) is the fact the politicians created the problem by creating things like NAFTA to encourage more worldwide commerce however the problem is it's commerce without even playing fields. We import so many products into the US from countries that don't have an OSHA and an EPA so US companies can't compete and they go away.

By the time the people wake up it will be too late I fear.

I won't even address the "greed" part of my response. This part of it seems so obvious with Bush having been and "oil guy" we all know where his loyalties lie.