The Future of Buick

[91z4me]

I bought a Lucerne CSX in December.

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Were there any previous Buick's purchased within the last 7 years? Anyways congrats, I am sure that you can attest to how good of a car it is. Now who else has purchased a new Buick recently?

[Lucerne06]

Do you really think with all the product stated for Saturn that its sales will not rise?  CTS is where volume is growning. Not only that but it is setting up future sales of higher profit/larger vehicles.  GMT900 Escalade, NG CTS, and the upcoming BRX will grow the brand as will the revamped STS as it moves up in size.

I will disagree with that for 2 reasons, GM has publically stated it will not be abandoning its brands anytime soon and 2 Buick is not a stand alone line anymore!  Buick is partnered with GMC and Pontiac.  Pontiac will cover the lower end/sporty cars and GMC will handle the trucks, why we don't need a Raineer or Rendevous.  If GMC gets a Theta or sub-Theta model then Buick doesn't need one.

This is model year 2007, GM plans things years in advanced and that means they are likely planning the 2011-2012 model years now.  It takes time to do engineering and design work.  It takes time to build up the cash to do new models.  It takes time to build a brand into the positive area of customer perception, which despite what many "Buick Fans" might think is not very good right now.

Now a question for the "Buick Faithful":  How many of you bought your last Buick NEW within the last 7 years?

My guess is not many.

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I purchased my 2006 Buick Lucerne in March, it is the CXL and I love it!!!!!

Talk about rear wheel drive cars; you can have them!

[Flybrian]

Ven purchased a 2003/4 Park Avenue Ultra new, Riveraranch a 2006(?) LaCrosse CXS, and I know several on here have relations that have bought LaCrosses and Lucernes.

[Paolino]

It takes time to build up the cash to do new models.

Now a question for the "Buick Faithful":  How many of you bought your last Buick NEW within the last 7 years?

My guess is not many.

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Well, what about the 3 billion dollar investment for Buick? How much cash do you have to build up to start giving us some product? How much time does GM need to realize they have crap? They realized this a while ago. They got the money a while ago. Push the Enclave a little ahead. The freakin' concept was almost a production car--what is taking so long? Oh, that's right, people were giving attention to the other brands so they could have nearly identical vehicles first.

Hey, if I had the money, I'd have a brand-new Buick right now. As it stands, I have to wait until next summer, and I will be purchasing a new Buick. My father is waiting for his LeSabre to kick the bucket (and it's close), and he mentioned he plans on checking out the Lucerne--thinks its gorgeous.

Technically I bought a buick in the last 7 years, but since I was a grad student, it wasn't new.

[enzl]

I believe that of GM's brands, Buick, in some ways, may have one of the brightest, if we factor in the Chinese market....so, I wouldn't worry for Buick, as it will be around in some form for a long time.

As to product, I have a couple of (inexpensive) suggestions:

1. Revive the LaCrosse with a 'Cielo' type 4 door convertible. Chrysler has flirted with the Helios concept and MB is rumored to have one in the pipeline as an S. Why NOT Buick?

2. Decontented, Buicked CTS. I can't tell you how many times my Grandpa has complained how his STS is "too stiff" or "cold" or "austere"...Why not a $30K RWD casual machine to catch all the people who will never appreciate Euro-lux but deserve a car with RWD characteristics.

3. Enclave SE's- Hit 'em hard and fast with tangible changes to Special Edition models....A GNX? version would be easy with the DI 3.6 around the corner. How about a properly engineered 'Skyview' multi-paneled Sunroof while you're at it.

Just a couple of ideas...

[wildcat]

I haven't bought my new Buick yet, 'cause I keep hearing about "the new, improved stuff" coming soon ( Velite and Zeta GMX-283 and Theta GMT-165 et al, that were canceled ). I own a Buick now and I'm waiting to replace it with the right new Buick... I can't blow the only money I have on a $40K Enclave, only to find out they're going to do a smaller Buick like they should.

91z4me: If you think Buick's been treated fairly, let's go count how many times Buick has been the subject of an article on the GM Fastlane Blog, compared to Chevrolet, Saturn, Saab, Pontiac, etc. Or on the GM FYI Blog.

Edited August 25, 2006 by wildcat

[Flybrian]

1. Revive the LaCrosse with a 'Cielo' type 4 door convertible.

So, you and I make two people that love this concept. The fact that it was done to a Regal and not actually produced is sick. A beautiful convertible hardtop without the mess and space reductions of a traditional folding roof while maintaining the same structural rigidity of the regular hardtop.

2. Decontented, Buicked CTS. I can't tell you how many times my Grandpa has complained how his STS is "too stiff" or "cold" or "austere"...Why not a $30K RWD casual machine to catch all the people who will never appreciate Euro-lux but deserve a car with RWD characteristics.

I think the above car would make a great Skylark. Even more doable if Pontiac goes all RWD as the Buick version of this future ____ would simply be available in more limited (and optioned-out) trims with a softer ride. I'm sure many of the used STSs with 5-10k miles are folks like your grandpa that miss the old Seville.

[ehaase]

I can't blow the only money I have on a $40K Enclave, only to find out they're going to do a smaller Buick like they should.

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I think you should resign yourself to Buick having nothing more than 2 sedans and the Enclave. There have been countless posts and articles on the subject, and there is no reason to hope that Buick will have anything more between now and 2012. You really should resign yourself to the fact that Pontiac-Buick-GMC are one entity now and that Chevrolet and Cadillac are GM's highest priority. Saturn will get more emphasis than Buick because GM's research shows that Saturn is the division that can best appeal to import buyers. Buick's not getting a version of the Chevrolet Equinox.

Do you have to have a crossover? Could a nice Lacrosse or Lucerne for under $30,000 meet your needs?

[VenSeattle]

Now a question for the "Buick Faithful":  How many of you bought your last Buick NEW within the last 7 years?

My guess is not many.

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2 of them in fact.

[91z4me]

1. Revive the LaCrosse with a 'Cielo' type 4 door convertible. Chrysler has flirted with the Helios concept and MB is rumored to have one in the pipeline as an S. Why NOT Buick?

That would NOT be inexpensive and would actually be very hard to do given some of the platforms that GM currently has with Buick, there hasn't been a W-body vert since the Cutlass in 96 and it was a 2 door. The G-body has never offered a factory very but there have been DTS verts made by aftermarket companies for big bucks so it is possible.

2. Decontented, Buicked CTS. I can't tell you how many times my Grandpa has complained how his STS is "too stiff" or "cold" or "austere"...Why not a $30K RWD casual machine to catch all the people who will never appreciate Euro-lux but deserve a car with RWD characteristics.

This IS possible now that the CTS is moving onto the larger AWD capable Sigma. The smaller more compact one is now open and could fit a Buick very well and the price point could be north of $30K and buyers would likely not be turned off by the price. But what programs do you slow down to do the work on it?

3. Enclave SE's- Hit 'em hard and fast with tangible changes to Special Edition models....A GNX? version would be easy with the DI 3.6 around the corner. How about a properly engineered 'Skyview' multi-paneled Sunroof while you're at it.

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So you want sticker jobs, because that is what most SEs are in the industry. You will not get DI on 1 trim level because the whole thing would have to be re-crash and emissions tested. A NG N* would be a great addition to the lineup or maybe the new DOHC Diesel but we will see. And you want an Enclage GNX? Yeah I don't think that would go over very well, at all!

91z4me: If you think Buick's been treated fairly, let's go count how many times Buick has been the subject of an article on the GM Fastlane Blog, compared to Chevrolet, Saturn, Saab, Pontiac, etc. Or on the GM FYI Blog.

Quite frankly, NO. A brand with as much history and pride as Buick needs to be a top priority at GM. I think that they should be the main line at Pontiac/Buick/GMC and should have a luxury compact sedan, luxury midsize sedan, luxury fullsize sedan, and an extended luxury sedan (stablemate to the ULS to provide volume for the ULS program though with less fancy stuff). I think things like Magnaride, Onstar, Heated seats, ESP, ABS, and Climate control should be standard. If Buick wants to be taken seriously as a Luxury line it needs to do this and it needs to do it now. It needs to quit worrying about keeping the factory running at 100% and make sure the dealerships are running at 100%. Buick should be all about the best luxury values in the industry. I think that FWD has a home at Buick, heck they brought out like the 2nd model in the US with it!

But with all that being said I understand where GM is coming from. You have your top tier brand, Caddy, making models that aren't world class and you MUST take care of Caddy first. Then you have to get the volume division, Chevy, on the right track. Then you come up with a VERY cost effective plan for Saturn, rebadged Opels, and you want to get that plan started as soon as possible so you don't have to keep paying for development of US only models. Then you get to Buick and Pontiac. Because while the brands themselves are important, their volume really isn't. Getting GM back into the black is what is most important because while all this is going on you have MAJOR cutbacks to work through in management, you need to reduce your underutilized factories, and get rid of excess workers at factories that are being modernized.

GM has a plan for Buick. They will NOT kill this brand. I think by the time I can afford a new GM I will be prime Buick demographic (DC around 30 years old, kids here or on the way, suburban lifestyle). And Buick is where I will likely make my home within the GM family for most of my life, though up until now I have always been Chevy.

I want you guys to remember a phrase that the Camaro guys listened to for years and let it sit for a while "Have Faith."

[Cananopie]

Were there any previous Buick's purchased within the last 7 years?  Anyways congrats, I am sure that you can attest to how good of a car it is.  Now who else has purchased a new Buick recently?

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My grandparents bought a new Buick 3 years ago and 6 years ago, my parents bought a new Buick last year, this year, and about 3 years ago. And both sets aren't as faithful as me. I haven't bought a brand new Buick yet but then again I just turned 23 a couple weeks ago.

[enzl]

This Cielo Concept could be applied using similar tech as the SRX...It looks like the engineering necessary to get it to show status has already been done. How hard could it be to finish?

www.mclellansautomotive.com/photos/B18184.jpg

Edited August 25, 2006 by enzl

[ehaase]

I think that FWD has a home at Buick, heck they brought out like the 2nd model in the US with it!

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Which model is that? I am not aware of any FWD Buicks until the 1979 Riviera. The Cord, the 1966 Toronado, the 1967 Eldorado, and the 1978 Omni/Horizon debuted before that.

[91z4me]

Which model is that?  I am not aware of any FWD Buicks until the 1979 Riviera.  The Cord, the 1966 Toronado, the 1967 Eldorado, and the 1978 Omni/Horizon debuted before that.

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I thought the Riv came out before then, along with the Toranado. But FWD is definately associated with mainstream America and with Buick so at least 1 model needs to remain FWD.

[ehaase]

I thought the Riv came out before then, along with the Toranado.  But FWD is definately associated with mainstream America and with Buick so at least 1 model needs to remain FWD.

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The Riviera was RWD from 1963 to 1979, even though it also used the E body platform (except for 1977 and 1978, when it shared the B body platform with the LeSabre). Edited August 25, 2006 by ehaase

[Drew Dowdell]

I thought the Riv came out before then, along with the Toranado.  But FWD is definately associated with mainstream America and with Buick so at least 1 model needs to remain FWD.

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The riv that came out with the Toronado was RWD.

[Chicagoland]

"I thought the Riv... was FWD always"

Above shows that some Auto history is sadly getting mixed up. The 1st Riv pre-dated the Toro by 3 years, and was definintly NOT FWD.

Best to know history and not 'think' it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Riviera was a body style on the 50's buicks

it designated the car as being a hardtop

Similar to the holiday designation on the Oldsmobiles

[ehaase]

Above shows that some Auto history is sadly getting mixed up. The 1st Riv pre-dated the Toro by 3 years, and was definintly NOT FWD.

Best to know history and not 'think' it.

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You and I are among the few here old enough to remember when the RWD Rivieras were new.

[91z4me]

"I thought the Riv... was FWD always"

Above shows that some Auto history is sadly getting mixed up. The 1st Riv pre-dated the Toro by 3 years, and was definintly NOT FWD.

Best to know history and not 'think' it.

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Alright tough guy I got one thing wrong but my assessment of the current and future status of Buick is pretty spot on. If you can find a flaw in it in a provable and logical manner then do so and stop nitpicking stuff that happened about 18 years before I was born!

Best to say your peice and let others know where they stand with you rather than sitting back and being a punk making backhanded comments.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

just that Buick could easily be a full line-up Premium brand... way before Pontiac or GMC. Buick could absorb the other two. Its definition of what a vehicle should be is applicable to almost any segment.

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I agree with you completely. I'm trying to see how/if that might interfere with Cadillac, but I see Buick's biggest rival companies as Chrysler, Mercury, and Acura. GMC should stick with truck-based vehicles only; Pontiac with sporty, upscale vehicles only, though the latter looks to me like it will have a much harder time without trying to step on Saturn and Chevrolet's toes.

The 1960 Buick lineup comprised of the year-old LeSabre, Invicta, and Electra; the "compact" Special was introduced for the 1961 model year with the similar Oldsmobile F-85 and Pontiac Tempest, I believe loosely based on the Corvair, except of course, being larger, more upscale, and of a conventional front-engine layout.

[ehaase]

GMC should stick with truck-based vehicles only.

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Even with gasoline at $3.00/gallon and higher? I support giving GMC, one of GM's strongest brands, a crossover or two, to give GMC buyers options with which to replace their Yukons and Envoys. GMC doesn't have the old person's car stigma that Buick, maybe unfairly, has.

[VenSeattle]

Even with gasoline at $3.00/gallon and higher?  I support giving GMC, one of GM's strongest brands, a crossover or two, to give GMC buyers options with which to replace their Yukons and Envoys.  GMC doesn't have the old person's car stigma that Buick, maybe unfairly, has.

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So it's okay for GMC & Pontiac to siphon off potential muscle cars, coupes, compact cars, and compact CUVs from Buick because "they're all three just one division so it doesn't matter which brand gets it" but it's not okay for GMC to suffer the same compromise?

Sorry, GMC is a truck brand. If $3 bucks a gallon make truck sales drop, that should impact GMC... not Buick. Buick should have the CUVs while GMC remains "true to its narrow brand image" like so many people are forcing Buick to do (old person's car .)

Remember, they're all at the same dealership. Why should it make a difference for GMC buyers to have a CUV alternative with a BUICK badge on it? After all, Riviera supplicants are supposed to accept the next RWD Pontiac coupe as an equivalent.

I fear the logic behind this 3-in-1 grouping will destroy all three brands.

[ehaase]

So it's okay for GMC & Pontiac to siphon off potential muscle cars, coupes, compact cars, and compact CUVs from Buick because "they're all three just one division so it doesn't matter which brand gets it" but it's not okay for GMC to suffer the same compromise? :

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No, it's not OK because GMC is the strongest brand. Younger buyers (not me, I would prefer the Buick myself, but I'm middle aged) are much more likely to buy a GMC than a Buick.

[wildcat]

VenSeattle: Thank you for one of the best posts I've read in support of Buick in a while. I understand what ehaase is saying, but correct Buick products and GM marketing have to fix that perception. (I've liked Buicks since I was a young boy, and after all these years of loyalty, I'm still not an old man, and I still like Buicks. So I'm part of the proof Buick is not "just" an old man's car.) GMC is a truck line. Give Buick the car-based crossovers.

[Ravenfreak13]

It would be awesome to see an electra coupe come out...maybe even a hardtop vert too.

[Northstar]

So it's okay for GMC & Pontiac to siphon off potential muscle cars, coupes, compact cars, and compact CUVs from Buick because "they're all three just one division so it doesn't matter which brand gets it" but it's not okay for GMC to suffer the same compromise?

Sorry, GMC is a truck brand. If $3 bucks a gallon make truck sales drop, that should impact GMC... not Buick. Buick should have the CUVs while GMC remains "true to its narrow brand image" like so many people are forcing Buick to do (old person's car .)

Remember, they're all at the same dealership. Why should it make a difference for GMC buyers to have a CUV alternative with a BUICK badge on it? After all, Riviera supplicants are supposed to accept the next RWD Pontiac coupe as an equivalent.

I fear the logic behind this 3-in-1 grouping will destroy all three brands. 

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If that's not how GM thinks Buick should be focused, then I guess that's why the other two would get the product. However, it's not like Pontiac is getting any more product that Buick in the coming years.

I think GM wants to keep GMC strong, so if it needs a CUV to stay strong, GMC's probably going to get it.

It would make a difference for GMC buyers to have a CUV with the Buick badge on it if the GMC buyers didn't give a damn about Buick (the younger buyers that the CUV is likely targeting). If GM thinks that GMC will sell more Theta CUVs than Buick, then obviously they're going to give it to GMC, and if there's still a case for a Buick as well, maybe Buick will get one.

[ehaase]

VenSeattle: Thank you for one of the best posts I've read in support of Buick in a while.  I understand what ehaase is saying, but correct Buick products and GM marketing have to fix that perception.  (I've liked Buicks since I was a young boy, and after all these years of loyalty, I'm still not an old man, and I still like Buicks.  So I'm part of the proof Buick is not "just" an old man's car.)  GMC is a truck line.  Give Buick the car-based crossovers.

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We have discussed this back and forth for about 4 years now, but I think GM's current strategy for Buick is the only way it can afford to keep the brand alive. I don't think that you or VenSeattle or I, for that matter, have typical tastes in automobiles for people our age. I believe that people in their 30's and 40's would be more willing to buy a GMC CUV than a Buick CUV, no matter how well marketed or styled. I try to see things, not just as a fan, but from a business standpoint also, and I do pay a lot of attention to what industry analysts, including Evok, say.

[wildcat]

As I say, it's up to GM -- including design, marketing, and sales -- to make people, including younger ages, want a Buick. Just as the Enclave concept got very much positive attention and praise, I also think a smaller Buick CUV could work too, if done well. Aren't car-based crossovers one of the "hottest" market segments now? Didn't GM plan, at least at one point, to add 14 to their portfolio by 2009?

All that I'm hoping for is fairness - if Buick, Pontiac, and GMC are partners in the sales channel, then each should, ideally, get the same number of vehicles. Not 5 for Pontiac and 3 for Buick. Wagoner and LaNeve said "4 or 5" Buicks, I didn't make the number up. GMC is trucks, not cars. Give GMC whatever you'd like (trucks, vans, I don't care). Just save the car-based crossovers for Buick. Similarly, GM has to talk up Buick's future, just as it has done ad nauseum about Camaro, GTO, Escalade, the new Saturns, Saab, E85, etc. So far, everyone has conveniently ignored my observation that GM has yet to do a feature about Buick on its Fastlane or FYI blogs. Not one, in what, more than a year since the forums were started?

I'm sure in many ways that I'm not typical. I think more with my heart and mind and gut, rather than cold numbers. GM needs to listen to people who have bought Buicks in the past and intend to buy more, or will consider buying their first, in the future. But if GM didn't have loyal, patient customers such as me (and there are many on this board), it wouldn't have much. If average fans (not "insiders," including the one who seems to think his knowledge justifies being rude to others) weren't behind GM, industry analysts could talk 'til they're blue in the face, without anyone who cared, except maybe the beancounters. I enjoy reading the thoughts and listening and interacting with polite people who have passion and interest in GM vehicles.

Edited August 27, 2006 by wildcat

[Cananopie]

ehaase- your logic seems backwards to me.

Buick was not made to be an 'old mans' company and nobody ever marketed it as such. Buick became that way due to lack of exciting product that appeals to other buyers... sedans and SUVs only attract so much. The Rendezvous has proved Buick can sell vehicles to a younger crowd and in more numbers than most other brands...

But when you don't give Buick a vehicle for younger people they won't appeal to younger people

Only so many younger people need a full or midsize sedan or an SUV. While all three vehicles are very stylish (when the Enclave comes along) these people-packers are not exactly what they younger crowd is looking for. ONE more vehicle that could be a coupe or convertible for Buick (even though we all know Pontiac totally has that market cornered and nobody who considers GM would ever consider outside of Pontiac for sport and sport styling...right?) placed in the 30k-40k range which would NOT interfere with a single sporty Pontiac, a single sporty Chevy, and not a single Cadillac (since all of these brands need to be considered before Buick ever gains a product).

The closest GM product a 30k-40k coupe or convertible would cross shop is the 4 door sedan CTS or the 4 door sedan Lucerne...

Now imagine if GM actually did it right and gave Buick a powerful engine, one of the most powerful in its class (I know it seems Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac are the only car companies in GM who are allowed to have most powerful in its class engines but hey- maybe Buick- an equally meritable company- could get one too... maybe?) with styling that is progressive from the Enclave and luxury above all the 20-30k coupes/convertibles but UNDER the 40-50k coupe/convertibles... and Oh My God Buick has a vehicle that would be popular with everybody from car magazines (no matter how GM bias [think Solstice]) to, Oh my God, a younger and more wide variety of a customer base...

How do you see Buick NEEDING to be starved to death with 3 of the most typical and oversaturated vehicles in the market with nothing severely popular about them?! The Lucerne and the LaCrosse have a fair chunk of their own market and the Rendezvous is sure to give the Enclave a fair chunk of its own market but Buick isn't the dumpy company it was in 2000 with 4 sedans all with v-6 engines and entirely ho-hum styling.

There has only been improvement in style from the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and now the Enclave. And you think creating a vehicle that wouldn't only raise people's eyebrows to look at Buick yet AGAIN (after the LaCrosse, Lucerene AND Enclave which all are turning new heads they've never turned in the past) and this time actually be a vehicle that people dream about in their sleep and not just use for their spacious interiors and large trunks is a BAD idea?! and that GM wouldn't survive with one?

I whole-heartedly disagree. This follower-attitude is exactly what Buick and GM don't need in order to stay out of debt.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Cananopie

[Northstar]

If Buick is going to try to attract younger customers, I don't think a coupe from $30-40k is really going to work, because not that many younger buyers can afford to spend that much on a car.

Also, the problem is not that younger buyers wouldn't like a vehicle like that, it's that it says Buick on it. Younger buyers would much rather drive a Pontiac than a Buick, so that's why Pontiac is probably the front-runner for a vehicle like that.

One final thought: even if Buick gets such a vehicle, and it sells to younger people (the few that can afford it), it's not even going to sell in very large numbers anyways. I would think 1500 per month would be optimistic, especially considering the GTO didn't do that much on average.

I think the PBG channel needs to work something like this:

Pontiac: sporty, and targets youth.

Buick: More understated but still stylish, targets those moving up from Pontiac.

GMC: Basically what it is now.

[Robert Hall]

If Buick is going to try to attract younger customers, I don't think a coupe from $30-40k is really going to work, because not that many younger buyers can afford to spend that much on a car.

It depends on how young Buick is after..there are plenty of buyers in the 30-40 age range (much younger than the typical 50-75 yr old Buick buyer) that they could attract with a well done coupe.. think 3-series and G35 intenders...

[Cananopie]

Northstar there is a big difference between 60 and 20. 20 year olds typically will look at a Pontiac. A 30 year old... eh... MAYBE will look at a Pontiac, but by the time you're 40 and you hop in a Pontiac you are living a mid-life crisis then because Pontiac's are cheap and sporty- perfect for 20 year olds and for 40 year olds with a midlife crisis.

However when you're 40 and you hop in to an Infinit G35 then you are a man with style that your neighbors will not secretly laugh behind your back unlike when you hop in to your $20k Solstice and speed off like the youthful sprite that you never were back in college.

Buicks have a stigma of being an "old mans car" but a sporty coupe would change all that. Pontiac has a stigma of being a cheap auto-maker that chinces a lot on materials. There is a sport market for 30-60 year olds that don't look like cheap kid-cars that Pontiac makes. Pontiac is going for Mistubishi excitement which is definitely for young kids- 16-30... but once you reach 30 you realize that you really don't want a small uncomfortable vehicle just because you can go 0-60 quickly... you want a larger, more elegant vehicle, that you can still go 0-60 quickly but when you win your little redlight race you can sit back and enjoy the comforts of the vehicle as well.

Pontiac does not have the ability to make luxury sport and Cadillac (if it doesn't have enough vehicles already) isn't doing it in that price segment. Does GM just enjoy allowing foreigners to secure this market completely or does GM want to inject a syringe of life in to its company and give their least "exciting" brand something a little exciting. I'm not saying that it should interfere (God forbid) with a Pontiac or Cadillac sale- I'm just saying that there IS a market out there and there are virtually no American options for this market and that GM and Buick especially could really make this market theirs.

How many people drueled over the Velite? Can Pontiac do that? No. Give it (or a coupe or a combination of both) to Buick for the love of God. Buick's biggest problem is public image- give the public an image of Buick that will slash all preconceptions completely... the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave all built up for THIS vehicle. It can happen. It will sell. And it will be profitable for both Buick and GM. Ignoring this to keep cutting costs (as hasn't worked for the last 20 years and won't continue to work) will ultimately lead to doom for the entire brand.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Cananopie

[Northstar]

Northstar there is a big difference between 60 and 20. 20 year olds typically will look at a Pontiac. A 30 year old... eh... MAYBE will look at a Pontiac, but by the time you're 40 and you hop in a Pontiac you are living a mid-life crisis then because Pontiac's are cheap and sporty- perfect for 20 year olds and for 40 year olds with a midlife crisis.

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A 30 year old will definetly look at a Pontiac before a Buick. I know plenty of people in their 30s who would never be caught in a Buick but would drive a Pontiac.

However when you're 40 and you hop in to an Infinit G35 then you are a man with style that your neighbors will not secretly laugh behind your back unlike when you hop in to your $20k Solstice and speed off like the youthful sprite that you never were back in college.

I don't think neighbors would be laughing at you driving off in your Solstice, rather, I think neighbors who have a Solstice would be laughing at someone taking their Sunday drive in a Century. Owning a Solstice would make your neighbors pretty jealous of you, actually, something no Buick can say.

Buicks have a stigma of being an "old mans car" but a sporty coupe would change all that. Pontiac has a stigma of being a cheap auto-maker that chinces a lot on materials. There is a sport market for 30-60 year olds that don't look like cheap kid-cars that Pontiac makes. Pontiac is going for Mistubishi excitement which is definitely for young kids- 16-30... but once you reach 30 you realize that you really don't want a small uncomfortable vehicle just because you can go 0-60 quickly... you want a larger, more elegant vehicle, that you can still go 0-60 quickly but when you win your little redlight race you can sit back and enjoy the comforts of the vehicle as well.

The Reatta didn't change all that, neither did the Riv. For some reason, no one seems to understand that people looking for sporty coupes don't even have Buick on their radar. Buick was just as cheap as Pontiac on materials (especially for the price) until the Lucerne and now Enclave. The GTO has better materials than any Buick I've been in except the Lucerne. Also, there's nothing uncomfortable about the GTO. It has better seats than any Buick will probably ever have, handles like a dream, and has a smooth ride except over big bumps and potholes. I think you pretty much just described my experience with the GTO, you can win 95% of redlight races and still have a comfortable ride father down the road.

Pontiac does not have the ability to make luxury sport and Cadillac (if it doesn't have enough vehicles already) isn't doing it in that price segment. Does GM just enjoy allowing foreigners to secure this market completely or does GM want to inject a syringe of life in to its company and give their least "exciting" brand something a little exciting. I'm not saying that it should interfere (God forbid) with a Pontiac or Cadillac sale- I'm just saying that there IS a market out there and there are virtually no American options for this market and that GM and Buick especially could really make this market theirs.

The GTO is a pretty good combination of luxury and sport; it's pretty comparable to the G35. So, Pontiac does have that ability. In fact, anyone has the ability to make luxury and sport, that's a rather odd statement... Kia could make luxury and sport, but no one would care. I think the same thing sort of holds true to Buick... they can make something sporty, but I don't think anyone would care.

How many people drueled over the Velite? Can Pontiac do that? No.

What are you talking about? Sure, people drooled over the Velite, but the second part is completely false... far more people drooled over the Solstice.

Give it (or a coupe or a combination of both) to Buick for the love of God. Buick's biggest problem is public image- give the public an image of Buick that will slash all preconceptions completely... the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave all built up for THIS vehicle. It can happen. It will sell. And it will be profitable for both Buick and GM. Ignoring this to keep cutting costs (as hasn't worked for the last 20 years and won't continue to work) will ultimately lead to doom for the entire brand.

Buick would not be doomed if it made it's past products attractive to younger buyers. I fail to see why Buick can't attract younger buyers without such a vehicle. Younger buyers are all over Lexus's vehicles, and note that they don't have a single coupe, and only one convertible, and it's $60k. If Buick can't attract younger buyers with it's other vehicles, the vehicles that will make up the bulk of sales, it seems like a waste to give them such a vehicle if it's going to be the only one that attracks any younger buyers anyways.

[VenSeattle]

The Reatta didn't change all that, neither did the Riv. For some reason, no one seems to understand that people looking for sporty coupes don't even have Buick on their radar.

Buick was very successful and popular in the 1980's (since you brought up Reatta) with muscle cars and "sportiness." Buick didn't begin receiving the "blue-hair" treatment until the 1990s.

Buick was just as cheap as Pontiac on materials (especially for the price) until the Lucerne and now Enclave.

Bull$hit! Compare Pontiacs to Buicks in the 1980s & 1990s. Sorry Pontiac interiors were pleagued with cheap gray buttons and cheap puffy crap all over the place that made absolutely no sense. Buick's & Oldsmobile's interior materials were both better most of the time.

The GTO has better materials than any Buick I've been in except the Lucerne.

The GTO is an exception to Pontiac. Not the rule. You know that. There's nothing American Pontiac about the GTO's interior.

The GTO is a pretty good combination of luxury and sport; it's pretty comparable to the G35. So, Pontiac does have that ability. In fact, anyone has the ability to make luxury and sport, that's a rather odd statement... Kia could make luxury and sport, but no one would care. I think the same thing sort of holds true to Buick... they can make something sporty, but I don't think anyone would care.

Take the proposed RWD Grand Prix & proposed RWD GTO and call the sedan 'Regal' & the coupe 'Grand National' or 'GNX' and we'll see how the market (Baby Boomers) react.

Buick would not be doomed if it made it's past products attractive to younger buyers. I fail to see why Buick can't attract younger buyers without such a vehicle. Younger buyers are all over Lexus's vehicles, and note that they don't have a single coupe, and only one convertible, and it's $60k. If Buick can't attract younger buyers with it's other vehicles, the vehicles that will make up the bulk of sales, it seems like a waste to give them such a vehicle if it's going to be the only one that attracks any younger buyers anyways.

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The problem with that is Lexus doesn't have a "history" of popular coupes. Buick does. Playing on your strengths is vital. Also, many of Lexus's vehicles ABA aren't that much lower than Buick's.

You can't Damn Buick for having a loyal client base that keep buying, but Buick needs to continue attracting new buyers. I've been dismissed on C&G too many times for being "an exception" to Buick's typical clientele. That only perpetuates the misconception that Buick only attracts old people. Ignoring that there are young people out there that like Buick is ignorant. It’s simply not true. There are several young members on C&G alone (teens-40s) that also like Buick. Many claim they can't afford a new Buick but they want one. Isn't that an 'aspirational' quality for Buick?

Buick has proven over the past 6 years that it can enter new markets and attract new types of buyers.

Rendezvous is 5 years old and still holds its own against the brand new (and less expensive) Pontiac Torrent. Now they want to take away the Rendezvous from Buick and give the Torrent to GMC? That's just stupid. Buick has a proven market for compact/midsize Premium CUVs. A Theta-based (not Torrent clone) Rendezvous makes perfect sense. Buick deserves it.

On top of that, Pontiac's Aztek failed where Buick succeeded. Both divisions had free reign over styling and Pontiac dropped the ball. Buick's approach found an audience.

Buick's Terraza also held its own on the same showroom floor with Montana. Terraza continuously outsold Saturn's Relay despite the cloning of the two vehicles. Buick found an audience for a Premium Minivan... so let's also give it to GMC.

Buick's Rainier sold better than many Bravada years. I completely agree with giving this to GMC but it showed Buick could even "wow" some SUV buyers and tempt them to pick a Buick over a GMC on the same showroom floor.

Now rebadge the Lucerne as a GMC and see how well it sells. – There’s the problem! Buick can sell an upscale Pontiac. Buick can sell an upscale GMC. The reverse isn’t true.

If Pontiac and Buick go down, GMC will too. GMC, no matter how successful it is today, will not survive on its own. It must have Pontiac and/or Buick. Pontiac has shown it can not sell CUVs, minivans, or even large sedans very well any more. Buick on the other hand, has taken a sow’s ear and turned it into the best product it could. Rainier, Terraza, & Rendezvous all exceeded GM’s initial sales expectations. To say that GM underestimates Buick’s potential and ignores Buick’s possibilities is a huge understatement.

Many have mentioned GM can’t afford to invest in a full line-up for Buick, well that’s because the investment for compact/midsize RWD sedans & coupes are going to Pontiac and CUV/SUV/Truck investments are going to GMC. There’s an obvious solution to this dilemma. Lose all three or save one.

[Cananopie]

VenSeattle - That is a strong argument, I am really impressed with your knowledge of sales and such to back up your points. I totally agree with what you said.

Northstar - Whether I like it or not Buick has a current stigma that it is strictly for older clientelle. This isn't any one person's fault, but your average American probably at least knows of this stigma that pays attention to vehicles in the slightest.

The same goes for Pontiac- as Ven said the GTO is the exception and not the rule- but even with it's good quality material it honestly sold horribly initially so it helps prove Pontiac can't sell luxury very well. This is because Pontiac has that same type of Buick-oldman stigma as being a cheap-quality vehicle, argue it all you want but that is a typical Pontiac stigma that will come up against it. Nobody has ever prided their Pontiac on their quality.

Buick has accomplished a respectable level of quality, and when you have people know they are buying quality they will buy anything. Hence why Buick could sell CUVs, SUVs, and crappy stupid looking minivans much better than Pontiac and hold its own against GMC.

Allowing the excitement of a coupe to enter the Buick division will help alleviate the old-man stigma... allowing better materials in Pontiacs will help alleviate their quality problems. The GTO and the Solstice were a pretty good start for them, but Buick is still stuck with 2 sedans and 1 crossover still with quality material but nothing entirely exciting...

The amazing part is Buick can be exciting and it won't steal sales from Pontiac because they wouldn't be in the same price range. It seems the idea of making a sporty Buick coupe bothers people mostly because Pontiac can't steal the show. It's an excellent move!

Oh and the only reason why people may've drueled more over the Solstice was because it was going in to production. Buick never said that about the Velite and like all concept cars are taken for what they're worth.

GM can afford Buick the funds and Buick will be able to sell, respectably, whatever they make- but if people are getting bored of Buicks... give them a 2 door coupe with a powerful engine that makes people drop dead from original beautiful design. The Buick team can handle it. Give it to them.

[Northstar]

Buick was very successful and popular in the 1980's (since you brought up Reatta) with muscle cars and "sportiness." Buick didn't begin receiving the "blue-hair" treatment until the 1990s. 

Ok, but how easily is that going to be turned around?

Bull$hit! Compare Pontiacs to Buicks in the 1980s & 1990s. Sorry Pontiac interiors were pleagued with cheap gray buttons and cheap puffy crap all over the place that made absolutely no sense. Buick's & Oldsmobile's interior materials were both better most of the time.

Well, I guess I should have said only based on price. Sure, a $10k Sunfire is going to have piss-poor materials, and a $20k Century is going to be better, but neither had good materials, IMO.

Take the proposed RWD Grand Prix & proposed RWD GTO and call the sedan 'Regal' & the coupe 'Grand National' or 'GNX' and we'll see how the market (Baby Boomers) react.

This may be, but what if GM does studies and finds it can sell 100k of the Pontiacs and only 70k of the Buicks? It wouldn't make much sense to make the Buicks unless the profit margin is going to be a lot higher. Buick definetly needs a RWD sedan, and will get it in the form of the NG Lucerne, so maybe they can just make a cost-effective Lucerne coupe above the GTO (if there is another one). I think that could work nicely, actually, because the GTO would appeal to the younger buyers and the Baby Boomers might be drawn more to the larger Lucerne coupe.

Buick has proven over the past 6 years that it can enter new markets and attract new types of buyers.

In the case of the Rendezvous, yes, but the Terraza and Rainier were not well recieved.

Rendezvous is 5 years old and still holds its own against the brand new (and less expensive) Pontiac Torrent. Now they want to take away the Rendezvous from Buick and give the Torrent to GMC?    That's just stupid. Buick has a proven market for compact/midsize Premium CUVs. A Theta-based (not Torrent clone) Rendezvous makes perfect sense. Buick deserves it.

I think a Buick TE would be great, maybe it will get one once the Cadillac and Saab absorb the costs.

On top of that, Pontiac's Aztek failed where Buick succeeded. Both divisions had free reign over styling and Pontiac dropped the ball. Buick's approach found an audience.

How the Aztek got approved we will never know. Anything would have done better than it.

Buick's Terraza also held its own on the same showroom floor with Montana. Terraza continuously outsold Saturn's Relay despite the cloning of the two vehicles. Buick found an audience for a Premium Minivan... so let's also give it to GMC. 

The Terraza only sold 20k units in all of 2005. The Relay sold slightly less than 16k... after fleet sales I think the Relay might have sold better, but it doesn't really matter since they both sold like crap. The Montana outsold the Terraza by 7k units.

Now rebadge the Lucerne as a GMC and see how well it sells. – There’s the problem! Buick can sell an upscale Pontiac. Buick can sell an upscale GMC. The reverse isn’t true.

GMC has done well selling Denali's, which would be considered in Buick's territory, I think. Pontiac has never really tried to do anything that's too premium except for the Bonneville.

If Pontiac and Buick go down, GMC will too. GMC, no matter how successful it is today, will not survive on its own. It must have Pontiac and/or Buick. Pontiac has shown it can not sell CUVs, minivans, or even large sedans very well any more. Buick on the other hand, has taken a sow’s ear and turned it into the best product it could. Rainier, Terraza, & Rendezvous all exceeded GM’s initial sales expectations. To say that GM underestimates Buick’s potential and ignores Buick’s possibilities is a huge understatement. 

The last half of this is true, but the Torrent is doing pretty well, and not even Toyota could sell a CSV. I don't think GMC would go down if the other two did, because it doesn't rely on the other two attracting people into its showroom for sales. I wonder how many people came to look at an Envoy or one of the last Jimmys and ended up taking home a Rendezvous? Or, how many came to look at an Envoy and drove off in a Rainier? Probably more than those who came to see a Rendezvous or Rainier and drove off in a Envoy.

Many have mentioned GM can’t afford to invest in a full line-up for Buick, well that’s because the investment for compact/midsize RWD sedans & coupes are going to Pontiac and CUV/SUV/Truck investments are going to GMC. There’s an obvious solution to this dilemma. Lose all three or save one.

Currently, there is not a GTO or RWD sedan on the books for Pontiac. Buick does have one (NG Lucerne). Unless Pontiac is getting Holdens, I have not seen a program code for a Pontiac Zeta anywhere.

All three can survive. As I illustrated with the GTO and "Lucerne coupe," both Buick and Pontiac can have coupes if they target distinctly different buyers. Pontiac's Zeta sedan (if it gets one) will not interfere with the NG Lucerne, and the LaCrosse will be trageting a much different buyer than it's Epsilon II cousin G6. Now, is GMC getting an extra product that it shouldn't be? Yes, I think so. But, I don't think the GMC Theta is going to be premium enough for Buick anyways, Buick would need something off TE.

[Northstar]

Northstar - Whether I like it or not Buick has a current stigma that it is strictly for older clientelle. This isn't any one person's fault, but your average American probably at least knows of this stigma that pays attention to vehicles in the slightest.

The same goes for Pontiac- as Ven said the GTO is the exception and not the rule- but even with it's good quality material it honestly sold horribly initially so it helps prove Pontiac can't sell luxury very well. This is because Pontiac has that same type of Buick-oldman stigma as being a cheap-quality vehicle, argue it all you want but that is a typical Pontiac stigma that will come up against it. Nobody has ever prided their Pontiac on their quality.

See, the GTO wasn't marketed as a luxury vehicle though. Actually, I think part of the reason the GTO didn't sell well was that it wasn't marketed hardly at all when it came out. I think I saw a commercial for it maybe 3 times.

I do agree with you on Pontiac's image, and this is why Lutz said both Buick and Pontiac were damaged brands. However, I fail to see how Buick would better off selling a sporty vehicle than Pontiac based simply on this. Look at the Solstice - when Pontiac puts out something like that it sells fine (well done vehicle, marketed well) and people put the Pontiac image aside. Could this be done for Buick? Probably, but I think it's easier to do for Pontiac.

Buick has accomplished a respectable level of quality, and when you have people know they are buying quality they will buy anything. Hence why Buick could sell CUVs, SUVs, and crappy stupid looking minivans much better than Pontiac and hold its own against GMC.

As I addressed in the post above, the Montana actually sold better than the Terraza, and the Torrent and Rendezvous are both selling at about the same rate (Rendezvous is currently 2k vehicles ahead, but I'm guessing with more fleet since it's old - still, it's doing well for being so old). I don't know what vehicles GMC and Buick have shared except the Envoy and Rainier, and the Envoy outsold the Rainier by a huge margin.

Allowing the excitement of a coupe to enter the Buick division will help alleviate the old-man stigma... allowing better materials in Pontiacs will help alleviate their quality problems. The GTO and the Solstice were a pretty good start for them, but Buick is still stuck with 2 sedans and 1 crossover still with quality material but nothing entirely exciting...

Well, in this case GM is stuck between a rock and a hard place I fear. If it's trying to sell the two brands together, it either has to give Pontiac the sporty vehicles or Buick, and it fits Pontiac's image better. As I said above, maybe Buick can get a NG Lucerne coupe and (maybe) convert. Also, I think it's possible for Buick to make exciting sedans... people get excited about the GS, 5er, E-Class, A6, etc. I think part of the problem is GM is still using the G- and W- bodies which are terrible for modern design because of the hard points they have.

The amazing part is Buick can be exciting and it won't steal sales from Pontiac because they wouldn't be in the same price range.  It seems the idea of making a sporty Buick coupe bothers people mostly because Pontiac can't steal the show. It's an excellent move!

I agree and disagree. Buick can have something larger like a Lucerne coupe, but if Pontiac has a GTO and Buick a GNX, both are going to target the same buyer market, and they're just going to be fighting over the same sales for the most part. A few who would not consider a Buick would still buy the GTO if the GNX wasn't made, and vice versa.

Oh and the only reason why people may've drueled more over the Solstice was because it was going in to production. Buick never said that about the Velite and like all concept cars are taken for what they're worth.

The response to the Solstice was still better. It was Camaro-like. Everyone was still drooling over the Solstice more than a year and a half after the concept debuted and before we knew it was going to be produced. The excitement for the Velite died down well before that.

GM can afford Buick the funds and Buick will be able to sell, respectably, whatever they make- but if people are getting bored of Buicks... give them a 2 door coupe with a powerful engine that makes people drop dead from original beautiful design. The Buick team can handle it. Give it to them.

This is the problem GM faces. If it can only afford to do one Zeta coupe for BP, who does it give it to? If it can only afford to do one Zeta sedan, ask the same question. I think it would give one to Buick (Lucene), and one to Pontiac (GTO).

[VenSeattle]

Currently, there is not a GTO or RWD sedan on the books for Pontiac. Buick does have one (NG Lucerne). Unless Pontiac is getting Holdens, I have not seen a program code for a Pontiac Zeta anywhere.

All three can survive. As I illustrated with the GTO and "Lucerne coupe," both Buick and Pontiac can have coupes if they target distinctly different buyers. Pontiac's Zeta sedan (if it gets one) will not interfere with the NG Lucerne, and the LaCrosse will be trageting a much different buyer than it's Epsilon II cousin G6. Now, is GMC getting an extra product that it shouldn't be? Yes, I think so. But, I don't think the GMC Theta is going to be premium enough for Buick anyways, Buick would need something off TE.

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I'll agree to everything you've said in the closing statement. I don't want any GM division to pass. Pontiac is the weakest because it doesn't have any "official" programs on the books.... plus it's only sold in North America unlike Buick.

GM needs to get its head out of its ass if it’s going to keep all three alive. A Riviera and GTO would not compete against each other. So excluding coupes from Buick is down right suicidal to the brand.

I honestly don't want GMC to turn into Buick either. GMC is strong, providing it has a strong supporting brand next to it (kind of like Jeep & Chrysler.) Currently GMC is linked with Pontiac and Buick. If you think the phasing out of Pontiac & Buick wouldn't tarnish GMC's reputation, you are mistaken. GMC would be tarnished. The law suits and dealerships closing (non-truck heavy markets) would take a toll on GMC's gross sales and image. Sales would drop two-fold including the $3+ gas bill.

I "hope" all three can survive. However, GMC-Buick-Pontiac all need to be pushed upscale (dealership experience included) in order to accomplish that. I don't think GM has the ability to pull that off. Outside of the Bonneville, Pontiac doesn't have the premium pull. I would have even chosen a Bonneville SSEi or GXP over a LeSabre Limited... but no other Pontiac could have accomplished that. GM needs to leave the "boy-racer" for "Chevrolet SS" vehicles and turn Pontiac into an Acura competitor.

With GMC as premium trucks, Pontiac=Acura, & Buick=Lexus... all with 4yr/50k warranties... only then will all three survive. Consistency is key. Tiered brands can no longer exist under the same rooftop, but complementary brands can.

[Northstar]

I think Acura is shooting a little too high for Pontiac. I think if GM makes this "small, RWD platform" then Pontiac needs an entry-level sedan and maybe coupe off of it to attract young buyers, the Solstice, G6 or Grand Prix, and then the GTO as the flagship. Basically, they would all be aimed at younger buyers, while Buick would aim to attract those "graduating" from Pontiac and looking to move up market, basically middle-aged people.

[Cananopie]

I think Acura is shooting a little too high for Pontiac. I think if GM makes this "small, RWD platform" then Pontiac needs an entry-level sedan and maybe coupe off of it to attract young buyers, the Solstice, G6 or Grand Prix, and then the GTO as the flagship. Basically, they would all be aimed at younger buyers, while Buick would aim to attract those "graduating" from Pontiac and looking to move up market, basically middle-aged people.

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You're joking yourself if you think GM would let Pontiac to release another GTO. It sold very poorly and it had a lot to do with the marketing as you said but only because they tried to market luxury. Because when you start going in to luxury for Pontiac it gets people questioning the quality of their Buick's and Cadillacs which is a big deal because that represents a good portion of GM sales. However the GTO name probably won't come back due to the embarrassment of GM for the last one.

It's not to say Pontiac can't advertise in such a way to show quality- they can- but Pontiac can't advertise LUXURY without jeopordizing their luxury brands. A luxury vehicle then falls in to the hands of Buick or Cadillac, the former of which is in desperate need for a halo vehicle.

The problem with the GTO was that a GTO isn't supposed to have that much luxury. Similar to the Corvette its #1 purpose should be speed and quality and interior materials should be eye catching but not luxurious or supple or comfortable or relaxing... when you do that then you're not buying a Pontiac anymore- you're buying a Buick/Cadillac with a Pontiac nameplate.

Just because a Buick coupe would have enough horsepower for people to actually long for the vehicle doesn't mean it's still in Pontiac's territory. Pontiac can't sell luxury, (well anything could in theory, but they're at a severe disadvantage compared to Buick and Cadillac) but more than that- they shouldn't sell luxury because Buick and Cadillac have that taken care of.

I'm not arguing that Pontiac should make entirely chincy cars and stick to their image. Quality can improve and good quality materials in a sports car will be noticed. For example the quality of materials in a Corvette is good but they aren't luxurious how it is in the luxury price range- Pontiac can have fast coupes, but when you try to make them a little classy then people lose interest fast because if they wanted luxury they'd go to a luxury nameplate.

I suppose this would make it possible for both Pontiac and Buick to have a coupe in the same showroom, one aimed for sportier drivers who don't have as much cash and the other aimed for luxury-sport and have a little more to spend on it. However if one brand should get a 30k-40k coupe it should be Buick- they have a successful history of selling luxury coupes- Pontiac has actually the opposite.

And another reason why the GTO probably didn't sell that well is because luxury coupes are where sales are going a lot these days as opposed to sporty coupes with little luxury. Many people today want a relaxed interior environment with all the luxury they can but have a powerful punch of the gas. Pontiac can only truly supply half of that without major problems. Buick was made to create these kinds of vehicles.

Edited August 28, 2006 by Cananopie

[Northstar]

You're joking yourself if you think GM would let Pontiac to release another GTO. It sold very poorly and it had a lot to do with the marketing as you said but only because they tried to market luxury. Because when you start going in to luxury for Pontiac it gets people questioning the quality of their Buick's and Cadillacs which is a big deal because that represents a good portion of GM sales. However the GTO name probably won't come back due to the embarrassment of GM for the last one.

I wouldn't be surprsised if they do. Pontiac needs something as a flagship. And I don't ever recall them marketing it as anything but a RWD V8 muscle car. They never tried to market it as a luxury vehicle. And actually, for the price and market segment, it didn't sell bad at all. It sold better than the Trans Am did, and I believe it also outsold similar Mustangs such as the Mach 1 and Cobra combined. Also, it costs $33k. How many vehicles for $33k sell in huge numbers that aren't luxury-branded? I'm guessing the GTO outsold LaCrosse CXS, and it's sold by a more premium brand for the same price, and it's in a much bigger segment.

The problem with the GTO was that a GTO isn't supposed to have that much luxury. Similar to the Corvette its #1 purpose should be speed and quality and interior materials should be eye catching but not luxurious or supple or comfortable or relaxing... when you do that then you're not buying a Pontiac anymore- you're buying a Buick/Cadillac with a Pontiac nameplate.

Umm, the Corvette gets ragged for having an interior not up to par for it's price. I really don't see what you're talking about... why would you not want something to be comfortable and nice? That makes absolutely no sense at all. So you're saying all Pontiac's should have poor materials, and be terrible to ride in? The only thing that would accomplish would be giving sales away. The Camaro and Firebird has POS interiors and it showed on the sales charts -- maybe if they had interiors as nice as the GTO's they wouldn't have gotten axed.

I'm not arguing that Pontiac should make entirely chincy cars and stick to their image. Quality can improve and good quality materials in a sports car will be noticed. For example the quality of materials in a Corvette is good but they aren't luxurious how it is in the luxury price range- Pontiac can have fast coupes, but when you try to make them a little classy then people lose interest fast because if they wanted luxury they'd go to a luxury nameplate.

This still makes no sense... people definetly DO NOT lose interest if something is nicer than expected That would be a bonus.

Pontiac has actually the opposite.

Pontiac has a pretty damn good history of selling coupes if I'm not mistaken, and the market these days demands a good interior in any car.

And another reason why the GTO probably didn't sell that well is because luxury coupes are where sales are going a lot these days as opposed to sporty coupes with little luxury. Many people today want a relaxed interior environment with all the luxury they can but have a powerful punch of the gas. Pontiac can only truly supply half of that without major problems. Buick was made to create these kinds of vehicles.

Again, this doesn't make any sense to me. I have seen NO ONE comment on "Oh, I like how the GTO was fast and handled well, but I really didn't want to buy one because the interior was too nice for me. I would rather go spend the same amount of money on something that has a worse interior."

[Cananopie]

When you build a vehicle like the Mustang and the Camaro there is expected to be a certain level of affordability of it. The reason why the GTO probably outsold the Cobra and Mach 1 is because the Mustang (and the last gen Camaro at least) don't make their sales on their versions that are on crack. Those obviously sell poorly because of their price.

What makes the Mustang profitable and what made the Camaro profitable too and what WOULD'VE made the GTO profitable is offering a base-model of the vehicle that is affordable to a great many-more people. In the case of the GTO, Camaro, and Mustang people are basically buying it for the name. Most of the car-buying in America comes from non-car-buffs unlike ourselves. It comes from people who want to be popular and it comes from people who want people to envy their decision and over and over and over again people hear about how good of a vehicle the old GTO was, or the Camaro was, or the Mustang is and they want one for themselves.

They go up to the counter and say "I want to fastest Mustang you got!" and they bring them over to the nearest Mach-1 or Cobra and then they say "I couldn't afford that in a million years, don't you have one that's like 10k cheaper?" and then the salesmen will stroll them over to a stock Mustange equipped with like 200 HP and nothing special and they will be absolutely thrilled to take it- because it's a Mustang.

The GTO should be set up similarly- the GTO should not be an aspirational vehicle- only the best version of it- and in order to make a GTO priced around 20k you need to get rid of a lot of the luxury (but not the quality- we can still have quality cars at 20k, the Ford Five Hundred is a good example of this) just because it's 20k doesn't mean you have to compromise quality- it means you have to compromise luxury which is a big difference. The GTO's top price should round out about what the last GTO was but it's base price should be at minimum 10k cheaper because this is the type of vehicle people want to gloat about even if they couldn't beat a Jetta in it they'd still eat it up like it's the best car there is because people gloat about owning GTO's, Mustangs, and Camaros constantly.

Now if you look at the G35 Coupe from Infiniti this is the type of vehicle that is not in the GTO's territory- the base GTO will always get compared to it and if you get rid of the base GTO nobody will take it seriously because it's unaffordable and it's a Pontiac. The same image conscious people will say "I can have a Pontiac for 33k or an Infiniti" and no offense but Infiniti has had a far more decadent lineup than Pontiac and who wants to buy their luxury from Pontiac? No one. If they wanted luxury that is why we have luxury brands. Buick could make a coupe from 30k-40k without interfering with the GTO and allowing more creature-comforts than the GTO could. The Buick coupe would be in more competition with the Infiniti while the GTO should be in more competition with the Mustang.

Don't you see the difference? The Mustang isn't luxury but is severely popular.

The G35 isn't severely popular but it is very luxurious.

The G35 has understated elegance and beauty. The Mustang has in your face muscle car styling- I know which one of those I want my Pontiac to be and which one of those descriptions I want my Buick to be. Why are you trying to change it all around? The GTO isn't meant for luxury or understated styling- don't force it to have it. Nobody wants that in the market.

Pontiac aligns with competition of the Mustang and Buick aligns with competition of Infiniti (and any other brands with a luxury coupe between 30k-40k) and both can impress different mentalities of the public!

You say Pontiac is in need of a flagship- oh yea? What about Buick- Pontiac had their chance at a flagship and blew it with the GTO. You think Pontiac deserves another go before Buick who hasn't had a real flagship since the "boring" (to the public) Park Avenue that lasted since 1997 when it had its last redesign? Buick is in need of the image-boost with a real flagship. Pontiac has the Solstice and that is flagship enough- Buick needs a car that gets "wows" too. Pontiac is not the sole company in BPG dealerships that deserves flagships. Especially since Pontiac is slated to already have more vehicles than Buick in its lineup!

Don't let Pontiac encroach in to Buick's small enough territory as it is. Pontiac should stay below 30k and Buick stays above 25k and there is very little cross shopping to be done.

Edited August 29, 2006 by Cananopie

[Northstar]

The GTO should be set up similarly- the GTO should not be an aspirational vehicle- only the best version of it- and in order to make a GTO priced around 20k you need to get rid of a lot of the luxury (but not the quality- we can still have quality cars at 20k, the Ford Five Hundred is a good example of this) just because it's 20k doesn't mean you have to compromise quality- it means you have to compromise luxury which is a big difference. The GTO's top price should round out about what the last GTO was but it's base price should be at minimum 10k cheaper because this is the type of vehicle people want to gloat about even if they couldn't beat a Jetta in it they'd still eat it up like it's the best car there is because people gloat about owning GTO's, Mustangs, and Camaros constantly.

I think the GTO always has been an aspirational vehicle, and I think it always should be. If someone wants a similar coupe from GM for less, they can go buy the V6 Camaro. The GTO has never had a V6, and never should. The Camaro, which is targeting 100k per year, can't even bring in its base price to $20k most likely. The GTO should give the buyer everything you can get on any Camaro or Mustang plus more.

Now if you look at the G35 Coupe from Infiniti this is the type of vehicle that is not in the GTO's territory- the base GTO will always get compared to it and if you get rid of the base GTO nobody will take it seriously because it's unaffordable and it's a Pontiac. The same image conscious people will say "I can have a Pontiac for 33k or an Infiniti" and no offense but Infiniti has had a far more decadent lineup than Pontiac and who wants to buy their luxury from Pontiac? No one. If they wanted luxury that is why we have luxury brands. Buick could make a coupe from 30k-40k without interfering with the GTO and allowing more creature-comforts than the GTO could. The Buick coupe would be in more competition with the Infiniti while the GTO should be in more competition with the Mustang.

Well if we go by what people are going to pick before they actually sit in and drive the vehicles, then Buick is not going to have a chance in hell against Infiniti. When people actually sit in the vehicles and discover the GTO is just as nice and has better acceleration, then maybe they will put the Pontiac vs. Infiniti behind them and realize what a great car the GTO is.

Also, I don't think $33k is anywhere out of Pontiac's range. They're selling G6 converts that are near that like hotcakes, and the Solstice GXP is around $30k before dealer markup, and they'll sell every one they can make.

Don't you see the difference? The Mustang isn't luxury but is severely popular.

The G35 isn't severely popular but it is very luxurious.

And the GTO shouldn't be very popular. Everyone should want one, but there shouldn't be 100k GTOs running around. It should be Pontiac's Corvette.

The G35 has understated elegance and beauty. The Mustang has in your face muscle car styling- I know which one of those I want my Pontiac to be and which one of those descriptions I want my Buick to be. Why are you trying to change it all around? The GTO isn't meant for luxury or understated styling- don't force it to have it. Nobody wants that in the market.

Pontiac aligns with competition of the Mustang and Buick aligns with competition of Infiniti (and any other brands with a luxury coupe between 30k-40k) and both can impress different mentalities of the public!

The problem here is that it's impossible to deliver the GTO under $30k. It has a high-horsepower engine and sophisticated chassis. Maybe if it didn't have leather, 6-disc, etc., it would be just barely under $30k, but many buyers would have checked those options anyways.

You say Pontiac is in need of a flagship- oh yea? What about Buick- Pontiac had their chance at a flagship and blew it with the GTO. You think Pontiac deserves another go before Buick who hasn't had a real flagship since the "boring" (to the public) Park Avenue that lasted since 1997 when it had its last redesign? Buick is in need of the image-boost with a real flagship. Pontiac has the Solstice and that is flagship enough- Buick needs a car that gets "wows" too. Pontiac is not the sole company in BPG dealerships that deserves flagships. Especially since Pontiac is slated to already have more vehicles than Buick in its lineup!

They both need a flagship. Buick has the Lucerne at the moment, which isn't too bad. You say Pontiac blew their chance, but the GTO didn't even miss it's mark by more than a couple thousand units. Then you say Buick had the boring PA, well, didn't it blow it's chance too then? It also had a chance with the Lucerne, was that not good enough?

Pontiac after 2008 is slated to have:

G6

Solstice

G5

Buick is slated to have:

Lucerne

LaCrosse

Enclave

Pontiac has a NG G6 and Solstice on the books, Buick has both a NG LaCrosse and Lucerne, and the Enclave will be brand new. The G5 is a rebadge so it shouldn't even count. At least all of Buick's vehicles are non-rebadges.

Don't let Pontiac encroach in to Buick's small enough territory as it is. Pontiac should stay below 30k and Buick stays above 25k and there is very little cross shopping to be done.

It's impossible to stay under $30k if you're going to have any type of aspirational vehicle other than the Solstice. The G6 costs nearly $30k in GTP form, so how is GM supposed to give Pontiac a RWD V8 sedan for under $30k? It's not going to happen...

Price should not be the issue. You seem to be too caught up in "Pontiac can't come into this price range because that's Buick's price range." It shouldn't work like that. The target markets should be different enough that it shouldn't matter. Some people like sporty styling, while others like more understated styling. Pontiac should be going to the sporty styling, and Buick the understated. It shouldn't matter that there's a $33k G8 with 400HP sitting on the showroom next to a $35k Lucerne because the G8 should offer such a different feel than the Lucerne that one buyer would never have to decide between one or the other.

[Cananopie]

I think you're idealizing the GTO too much so it can only be offered as an expensive Pontiac with no other options. Sports cars gain their appeal by what they have the potential to do... they keep their appeal by making cheaper, more affordable versions of it.

How popular would the Solstice be if it wasn't offered at such a low price? It's the price that matters most with a vehicle designed specifically for sport in a Pontiac- the Pontiac division is a division of affordable sport. They aren't BMW and they're not supposed to be. Allowing a more base GTO to keep the production of the higher end GTO's is a good move for both Pontiac and GM. Saying the GTO should be Pontiac's Corvette is unrealistic. I stopped thinking about the idea of "Buick's Corvette" in the sense of a Buick that almost every American wants because of its power and style in a much higher price range than the average vehicles in the company... but GM is in far too tight of a spot for Buick OR Pontiac to be messing in a price group that it does not have a foothold in.

But if it were between the two companies to making a sporty coupe Buick really does deserve it. The Park Avenue I do not believed sold quite as poorly as the GTO and the GTO could not have sold as much for so long. The reason why I called it "boring" was because it was a 4 door V6 sedan- not V8 and not a coupe and nothing very outstanding about it- but it still sold well. Buick is a natural with understated elegance and it was a bit awkward for Pontiac.

The GTO was not as warmly welcomed as it should have been because it was mute of elegant flare or in your face sport. It doesn't get elegant for Pontiac- it gets boring for people to think of an elegant Pontiac. A sports car is a mid-life crisis for almost any middle aged men- and the Pontiac GTO would be a sports car of sports cars.

The problem is- many men don't want to look so foolish as to be going through their midlife crisis getting in a car that most would say was much too young for them. Younger people who would be interested in something like the GTO will not have the money to purchase a 30k plus GTO while older people will feel very comfortable going in to a 2-door V8 Buick... and they also have the money to fork it over. Nobody will ever tell them they're going through a mid-life crisis in a Buick because it's not a kids brand.

Pontiac has plenty of potential in their own price range (which has a lot to do with what a company is- BMWs aren't sold for 20k and Kias aren't sold for 80k, companies can't go all willy-nilly with where their next vehicle is going to be with their pricerange- the public holds a lot of weight in image identity) and Pontiacs do not sell in the 30k-40k price range and Buick does so it's obvious that Buick should get this vehicle. A Buick coupe will appeal to a lot more to financially liberal spenders who have an image to hold up of themselves. And no matter how classy a Pontiac is inside and out- it's still a Pontiac and it will need time to shed that image.

You put a V8 coupe in a Buick and it is something Buick is so used to and has the design freedom to be a lot more artistic with their vehicle than Pontiac that it will fit like a glove. A cheaper GTO and a more expensive Riviera would sell best-

I just realized today that your buddy icon is a GTO so you're obviously passionate about the vehicle but both Pontiac and Buick needs a flagship, but Buick needs one more because they do not have a jaw-dropping vehicle like the Solstice (and it's jaw dropping because it is a well designed 2 door convertible... things that are jaw dropping are always 2 door as far as I'm concerned). My compromise would be a cheaper GTO that tops out right where the elegant Riviera would start.

And as you say- they'll appeal to two totally different groups and you still get your perfect upper-end GTO it's just the Buick is going for the more elegant-consience crowd. The GTO and the Solstice combined will make the Pontiac brand very appealing (Don't be greedy) and the Riviera would help make the other vehicles Buick sells more appealing because the Riviera, if styled right, would resemble each of them a bit so people can see the Riviera in their own car. This makes Sedans and CUVs (naturally unappealing vehicles no matter what brand or make) more appealing!

[Northstar]

I think you're idealizing the GTO too much so it can only be offered as an expensive Pontiac with no other options. Sports cars gain their appeal by what they have the potential to do... they keep their appeal by making cheaper, more affordable versions of it.

How popular would the Solstice be if it wasn't offered at such a low price? It's the price that matters most with a vehicle designed specifically for sport in a Pontiac- the Pontiac division is a division of affordable sport. They aren't BMW and they're not supposed to be. Allowing a more base GTO to keep the production of the higher end GTO's is a good move for both Pontiac and GM. Saying the GTO should be Pontiac's Corvette is unrealistic. I stopped thinking about the idea of "Buick's Corvette" in the sense of a Buick that almost every American wants because of its power and style in a much higher price range than the average vehicles in the company... but GM is in far too tight of a spot for Buick OR Pontiac to be messing in a price group that it does not have a foothold in.

I didn't mean it should cost the same as the Corvette, I just meant that it should be more expensive than other Pontiac's.

Also, decontenting the GTO wouldn't have lowered the price that much... it had leather and 6-disc CD, along with dual power seats. That's probably about $2k right there, but there isn't much else that could be taken off except for the speakers being reduced to maybe 6. There's not a whole lot more you could take off except power mirrors, power locks, power windows, but everyone wants those anyways. So basically you're looking at a $30k MSRP instead of $33k, and I think most people would go for the few things you could take off anyways.

But if it were between the two companies to making a sporty coupe Buick really does deserve it. The Park Avenue I do not believed sold quite as poorly as the GTO and the GTO could not have sold as much for so long. The reason why I called it "boring" was because it was a 4 door V6 sedan- not V8 and not a coupe and nothing very outstanding about it- but it still sold well. Buick is a natural with understated elegance and it was a bit awkward for Pontiac.

Buick should not have a sporty coupe. It should have a larger, "touring" coupe. Also, the PA was heavily fleeted (percentage of sales) and it was basically the only car in its market, while the GTO had next to 0 fleet sales and had a lot more competition.

The problem is- many men don't want to look so foolish as to be going through their midlife crisis getting in a car that most would say was much too young for them. Younger people who would be interested in something like the GTO will not have the money to purchase a 30k plus GTO while older people will feel very comfortable going in to a 2-door V8 Buick... and they also have the money to fork it over. Nobody will ever tell them they're going through a mid-life crisis in a Buick because it's not a kids brand.

I think there are plenty of people in their 30s who can afford $33k GTOs or $40k Buicks... but I think most of them would perfer a Pontiac. Once you get over 45 or so then they'd start to perfer the Buick.

Pontiac has plenty of potential in their own price range (which has a lot to do with what a company is- BMWs aren't sold for 20k and Kias aren't sold for 80k, companies can't go all willy-nilly with where their next vehicle is going to be with their pricerange- the public holds a lot of weight in image identity) and Pontiacs do not sell in the 30k-40k price range and Buick does so it's obvious that Buick should get this vehicle. A Buick coupe will appeal to a lot more to financially liberal spenders who have an image to hold up of themselves. And no matter how classy a Pontiac is inside and out- it's still a Pontiac and it will need time to shed that image.

We're not talking about $20k vs. $80k. Neither Pontiac nor Buick could sell a car for $80k. Pontiac's sell relatively well right around $30k, from what I've read. The GP GXP accounts for 30% of GP sales (and none of those are fleeted - many of the other ones are, so it's really probably 50% of retail sales) and those are right around $30k. The Bonneville also outsold the Park Avenue in 2002 and 2003 (only years I checked because both were still selling ok then), and many of those were over $30k too. So, I think Pontiac CAN sell in the lower $30k range.

I agree with your last couple paragraphs, but a "cheap GTO" would be $33-35k. Buick is supposed to be moving up right below Cadillac anyways, so the V8 Riveria should start at about $39k and move up to about $43k. Then the V6 Riveria could be priced below that ($33-38k) and it wouldn't interfere with the GTO because they would be a lot different.

Finally, I've said it before, but the feel of a Pontiac vs. Buick should be so different that one would not cross shop them. Pontiac = sport; Buick = touring.

[Cananopie]

We've spent quite a lot of time on this topic and I think that we can agree that both Buick and Pontiac could use a coupe (ignoring who we think deserves it more). I can see your passion for Pontiac is similar to my passion for Buick and will essentially leave us with an argument on what company deserves the edge.

And I can go on again about how Buick has been pushed to the side over and over and over and over again for brands like Pontiac, Cadillac, Saturn, GMC, and Chevy and how Buick just needs one vehicle that isn't a sedan/SUV/minivan but it'll probably just leave us in another circle.

I enjoyed the discussion though- fact of the matter is neither will probably get their coupe unfortunately the way GM runs things.

[nferr]

The GTO failed mainly on looks. It just didn't look like an in your face muscle car, and in fact resembled a bloated Cavalier from many angles. Many GTO fans wanted a GTO that looked like a Pontiac and brought back memories of the legendary GTO's. I think GM rushed this version out and figured it would sell like hotcakes from the performance and name alone. It's a great car really, but fell short on image. Also GM didn't offer a moonroof. They're an absolute steal on the used car market.

[Chicagoland]

Buick in the 80's was still a sedate brand, even with the GN and GNX. Back then, the dealers stocked up on vinyl topped Regals, Centurys, Park Aves, and LeSabres. The GN's were 'cult cars'. 97% of Regals sold were not turbos, and of that at least 75% had 110HP V6s.

One has to look way way back to the 60's and 70's when the 2 door Skylarks, Centurys, and Regals sold well to younger [at that time] buyers along with bigger cars. That was when 2 doors ruled, but not today.

And no, a RWD 1978-87 plain jane Regal is not a "muscle car". Too many who were not around before 1984 use the term incorrectly.

[Mike[buick]]

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Buick: A brand rechanneled</span>

Automotive News / August 21, 2006 - 6:00 am

LaCrosse: Buick plans to offer a 5.3-liter V-8 for the 2007 model year. A redesign is expected for the 2010 model year, possibly on General Motors' front-wheel-drive Epsilon 2 architecture.

To reduce costs, all vehicles developed on Epsilon 2 (Chevrolet and Opel, for example) will be engineered by GM Europe in Ruesselsheim, Germany. U.S. operations are to provide specifications for such things as ride and handling. Styling will be determined by the region that will market the car. The LaCrosse will be styled by GM North America. Powertrains will differ by region.

Lucerne: A rear-wheel-drive Lucerne is expected, likely bowing for the 2010 model year. GM's global rwd vehicle architecture is being developed for several brands by Holden, the automaker's Australian operation. The Lucerne name may be replaced at that point.

Coupe, convertible: Buick is no longer considering a halo vehicle based on the rwd Velite convertible concept it showed at the New York auto show in 2004. As GM pushes Buick to align with Pontiac and GMC under one channel, Pontiac will take over as the sporty coupe/convertible brand. Pontiac has the hot-selling Solstice convertible roadster and recently introduced the G6 convertible hardtop, for example.

Terraza: The Terraza minivan will be offered until July 2008, at which time Buick will exit the minivan segment.

Rendezvous: The 2007 model is the last for the Rendezvous.

Enclave: The mid-sized 2008 Enclave crossover essentially will replace two Buick nameplates, the Rendezvous and the Rainier. The Enclave will be developed on GM's new fwd mid-sized Lambda architecture, which also will be shared by crossovers for Saturn and GMC. A V-6 engine initially will be offered; a V-8 is expected to follow in several months.

Rainier: The 2007 model year is the last for the Rainier.

It's pretty sad that the Rainier and Rendezvous are both being taken out of production to be replaced by only one crossover vehicle. I have a 2004 Rendezvous and was just about to get a 2007 Rendezvous but then I heard they were being taken out of production. I may consider a Lucerne now.