Holden considers Torana comeback

[douglask]

The Holden Commodore's days as Australia's best-selling car could be numbered. Denny Mooney, Holden's managing director, has told Drive that Holden's next-generation family sedan could be smaller and lighter and powered by four- and six-cylinder engines.

It would be similar in size to the Torana TT36 hatch concept displayed at the Sydney motor show last year. And it may be in production by as early as 2010.

Rising fuel prices and a buyer swing towards smaller cars has put the concept of a mid-sized rear-wheel-drive sedan, first floated by Holden in early 2005, back on the agenda of General Motors.

Full article:

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleD...ArticleID=19372

[CSpec]

Could this be Kappa II?

[AH-HA]

MMMUUHHHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!! :AH-HA_wink:

[Flybrian]

MMMUUHHHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!  :AH-HA_wink:

182281[/snapback]

Don't you mean...

MMMUUHHAHHAAHHAAHHAAHHAAHHAAHHAAHHAAHHAAHHAAHHA!!!!!!!

[Croc]

MMMUUHHHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!  :AH-HA_wink:

182281[/snapback]

'bout f@#king time you showed up again...

welcome back

[rueben44]

Not to be a down note but we as car guys could see a mile away that Holden needed such a car. Holden knew it also because that was the point of the concept. So why does it take GM so long to realize the obvious and then contemplate adjustments for 4 year away when the time is now. Just a thought but it is also a pattern I see.

[deftonesfan867]

GM...build it....

[pow]

This is even better news than the Commodore. Who needs a budget 5-series when you can have a budget 3-series?

[Chris_Doane]

'bout f@#king time you showed up again...

LOL...yea that'll get him.

[ocnblu]

Build it there, build it here... Pontiac needs it, and Buick could use it.

[ToniCipriani]

PONTIAC! PONTIAC! PONTIAC!

About damn time they get a replacement for the car with the name that infringes the copyright of Apple and Logitech.

[Dsuupr]

Could this be the same small compact rear wheel drive Pontiac is looking for?

Think about it.

Saturn = Opel

Pontiac = Holden

Lowers building costs, gives each division its own identity.

[CaddyXLR-V]

PONTIAC! PONTIAC! PONTIAC!

About damn time they get a replacement for the car with the name that infringes the copyright of Apple and Logitech.

182347[/snapback]

How about the replacement be called Tempest and be based off the Torana?

[Cadillacfan]

MMMUUHHHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!   :AH-HA_wink:

182281[/snapback]

Woo hoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

welcome back Mr. Ha

Edited August 20, 2006 by Cadillacfan

[Robert Hall]

Interesting..I could see how a compact RWD sports sedan could do well for Pontiac...

Just don't call it a G6 or P6 or whatever...maybe bring back 'Grand Am', which in the '70s was used on sporty midsize sedans and coupes (before it became synonimous with mediocre FWD compacts with tacky styling).

Likewise, a larger RWD sports sedan based on the Commodore SS V would make a nice Grand Prix.

Add in a Zeta based GTO and the Solstice, and Pontiac would have a completely RWD and focused lineup for 2010+.

Leave the FWD mainstream models and SUVs and crossovers to Chevy and Saturn...

Edited August 20, 2006 by moltar

[NOS2006]

AH-HA! Hi, buddy!

This is great news.. I hope they follow through with it as hinted in this thread. The Torana looked great (and the newest Holden cars just released remind me of it). Here's to hoping

[ZL-1]

MMMUUHHHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!  :AH-HA_wink:

182281[/snapback]

Good to see you back!

[Northstar]

Great news, it's just too bad it's at least 4 years away I'm guessing.

[ToniCipriani]

Interesting..I could see how a compact RWD sports sedan could do well for Pontiac...

Just don't call it a G6 or P6 or whatever...maybe bring back 'Grand Am', which in the '70s was used on sporty midsize sedans and coupes (before it became synonimous with mediocre FWD compacts with tacky styling).

Likewise, a larger RWD sports sedan based on the Commodore SS V would make a nice Grand Prix.

Add in a Zeta based GTO and the Solstice, and Pontiac would have a completely RWD and focused lineup for 2010+.

Leave the FWD mainstream models and SUVs and crossovers to Chevy and Saturn...

182427[/snapback]

G6 is not going anywhere, as read in previous articles about Pontiac going RWD only. The G6 is building reputation, and should do well by the time it gets to EPII with AWD.

As beated before, Grand Am has too much baggage. GM wanted to start fresh with a new name. Besides, it should be slotted below the G6.

[thegriffon]

I'm sure Holden will be lookking at a number of options, but this is all just air at the moment. We are far from seeing any firm commitment, and it will require a better business case than has so far been presented. Taking into consideration previous dicussions I will work something up for AutoReport sometime tomorrow if nothing else comes up (aside from Oshawa). I can see possbilities with an architecture this size that could add up to reasonable volume without too much effort.

[titan]

Nice sketch, and great news. That platform/powertrain combo would be the perfect next gen G6 to accompany the G8. I'd also put a midsize RWD entry Buick on it also, replacing the Lacrosse, to sit under the Buick Zeta.

Edited August 22, 2006 by titan

[thegriffon]

Could this be Kappa II?

182252[/snapback]

To put this into context, although smaller than the VE Commodore, the Torana concept has a longer wheelbase than the Camaro, so there is no reason it could not use the revised Zeta architecture. Even the extended Kappa of the Nomad concept was much smaller, and more suitable to a compact than the lower-midsize vehicle Mooney is talking about (think BLS, Mazda6, G35 and TSX, as compared to the upper-midsize Commodore [Aura, Milan, Azera]).

Nice sketch, and great news. That platform/powertrain combo would be the perfect next gen G6 to accompany the G8. I'd also put a midsize RWD entry Buick on it also, replacing the Lacrosse, to sit under the Buick Zeta.

183417[/snapback]

Why dump the LaCrosse to make room for a smaller rwd sedan? Why not do both? For the US market though I'd question whether you need both Pontiac and Buick rwd sedans the same size, at the same dealer. Edited August 22, 2006 by thegriffon

[ZL-1]

183432[/snapback]

How about shortening a Zeta (which I believe to be significantly cheaper to produce than Sigma) to make a mid-size RWD platform? Do you think a Pontiac G6, a Cadillac BLS and a Holden model could generate enough volume to be profitable?

[thegriffon]

I would add one other model, the Holden with a different grille and premium trim, to boost production further. I would look at two plants, one in the US (Oshawa?) to produce the G6, and an overseas plant to produce the BLS and Holden for export, and the fourth model for the domestic market.

[ocnblu]

Pontiac could use the platform as a coupe and sedan... and Buick could build their 4 seater convertible on it... no overlap. G6 convertible is in Buick price territory.

[thegriffon]

Coupes in this market depend on convertible versions for necessary volume. You can't economically do a coupe by itself. That isn't to say Pontiac couldn't do a sporty rwd lower-midsize coupe and cabrio, and Buick a luxury upper-midsize (or large) coupe and cabrio like the Velite.

[ZL-1]

I would add one other model, the Holden with a different grille and premium trim, to boost production further. I would look at two plants, one in the US (Oshawa?) to produce the G6, and an overseas plant to produce the BLS and Holden for export, and the fourth model for the domestic market.

183484[/snapback]

Sort of a 'Torana Calais'? What about developing some form of smaller mid-size crossovers/wagons from a shortened Zeta platform?

[thegriffon]

No, not a Torana Calais, but since this is a market where the Torana is not sold, you don't need to make a completely new body, simply new lights, a brand-appropriate grille, premium trim and equipment and localised powertrain options.

Plant A in North America produces the Pontiac (high volume for this platform).

Plant B in another market produces the Torana for export to Australia and New Zealand (relatively low volume), a Cadillac BLS for the local market and export (broader market so potentially higher volume), and a reworked premium Torana under a certain other brand for the local market, where neither Pontiac nor Holden has a presence. I'm sure someone can fill in the blanks.

[thegriffon]

For midsize crossovers the lwb TE architecture is fine, but wagon variants for at least Holden and Cadillac would be feasible.

[ZL-1]

No, not a Torana Calais, but since this is a market where the Torana is not sold, you don't need to make a completely new body, simply new lights, a brand-appropriate grille, premium trim and equipment and localised powertrain options.

Plant A in North America produces the Pontiac (high volume for this platform).

Plant B in another market produces the Torana for export to Australia and New Zealand (relatively low volume), a Cadillac BLS for the local market and export (broader market so potentially higher volume), and a reworked premium Torana under a certain other brand for the local market, where neither Pontiac nor Holden has a presence. I'm sure someone can fill in the blanks.

184446[/snapback]

Aha, I thought the Torana with a different grille would be a car sold in Australia.

So... would this car be an... Opel/Vauxhall Omega? I don't see Saab with a RWD car and I really can't think of any other GM brands that would use a RWD car in that segment.

Edited August 24, 2006 by ZL-1

[thegriffon]

Aha, I thought the Torana with a different grille would be a car sold in Australia.

So... would this car be an... Opel/Vauxhall Omega? I don't see Saab with a RWD car and I really can't think of any other GM brands that would use a RWD car in that segment.

184495[/snapback]

Really? Think outside the box you live in for a large market and brand that could use a smaller rwd sedan, that need not have a conflicting fwd model that could not switch to another cheaper brand.

[ZL-1]

Really? Think outside the box you live in for a large market and brand that could use a smaller rwd sedan, that need not have a conflicting fwd model that could not switch to another cheaper brand.

184676[/snapback]

I just re-read one of your previous posts: post nr.#22.

A midsize RWD Buick for the Chinese market? That would make the FWD car to be moved to a cheaper brand a Chevrolet: GMDAT's Epica?

Edited August 25, 2006 by ZL-1

[thegriffon]

I just re-read one of your previous posts: post nr.#22.

A midsize RWD Buick for the Chinese market? That would make the FWD car to be moved to a cheaper brand a Chevrolet: GMDAT's Epica?

184782[/snapback]

The Epica is already a Chevrolet in China. I was thinking of the smaller Excelle, but the primary vehicle it would be replacing is the Regal, still sold as a model below the LaCrosse. Like the Sail before it the NG compact would become a Chevrolet—the Optra, while the new rwd Buick would compete against cars such as the Toyota Reis (Mark X in Japan), and premium lower-midsize vehicles from Chinese manufacturers. As a Chinese Buick it would start with the 1.8 L CVVT engine, with the 2.4 L CVVT and 3.0 L CVVT from the LaCrosse, while the Holden version would sacrifice trim and equipment for the more powerful 2.8 and 3.6 L DOHC V6s.

[ToniCipriani]

From what I heard is the Regal is gone soon. The Buick Excelle should have been a Chevrolet all along. With Chevrolet in the picture it really doesn't fit.

But I suppose it's just for people in China to warm to the Chevy brand. After all they have been with Buick much longer.

And another thing: what if the LaCrosse is just a stopgap vehicle?

[ZL-1]

The Epica is already a Chevrolet in China. I was thinking of the smaller Excelle, but the primary vehicle it would be replacing is the Regal, still sold as a model below the LaCrosse. Like the Sail before it the NG compact would become a Chevrolet—the Optra, while the new rwd Buick would compete against cars such as the Toyota Reis (Mark X in Japan), and premium lower-midsize vehicles from Chinese manufacturers. As a Chinese Buick it would start with the 1.8 L CVVT engine, with the 2.4 L CVVT and 3.0 L CVVT from the LaCrosse, while the Holden version would sacrifice trim and equipment for the more powerful 2.8 and 3.6 L DOHC V6s.

185026[/snapback]

Aha, and again referring to post nr.22 above, namely your "why not do it both" comment, would the LaX slot above this RWD car?

EDIT: I searched for the Mark X on the internet. What a cool interior design!

Edited August 28, 2006 by ZL-1