Pontiac History

[HarleyEarl]

Pontiac Facts

Alcoa made an "all-aluminum" Pontiac. It was a 1942 two-door streamliner and had its engine and other parts made of aluminum.

In 1943, Pontiac designed a one-quarter-ton 4X4 truck proposed for build by Chevrolet.

Some non-military work started again at Pontiac Engineering in 1943.

Work was started on a five-inch Rocket Bomb in 1944. Pontiac also started making a 155mm shell.

GM Coaches were worked on at Pontiac in 1944.

There was almost no road testing due to restrictions on manpower and fuel in 1944.

An experimental Pontiac 6 with a supercharger was built in 1945.

An experimental Pontiac 6 with an aluminum intake manifold dual carburetor set-up was built in 1945.

A first postwar V-8 design was a flathead.

Postwar Pontiac V-8 projects included:

269 cid Flathead (8:1 compression ratio) - two designs – 268 cid OHV – 272 cid OHV using an Oldsmobile block

287 cid that became the 1955 production V-8. It was apparently related to the 268 cid above.

In 1947, Pontiac demonstrated a car with the 269 cid flathead V-8 to GM management.

272 cid OHV V-8 - first Pontiac engines made in 1948. A 265 cid OHV Pontiac 6 was designed in 1948.

269 cid flathead V-8 work was dropped in May 1949 by Pontiac as not suitable for high compression.

Pontiac built one 1200 OHV V-6, 251 cid for GM use in late 1949. Pontiac 268 cid OHV V-Ss were made in 1950.

A 248 cid OHV 6 was proposed to replace the 239 cid flathead six. It used the GMC Truck 248 cid block and crankshaft.

A two-barrel, high output 239 cid flathead six was developed. Work stopped in 1950.

A 239 cid F-head (not flathead) six was designed in 1950. There were plans for a longer wheelbase 1950 Pontiac.

The 1951 Pontiac was originally planned to have a new "A" body to be shared with Chevrolet and Oldsmobile, with considerable interchangeability.

In 1950 there was a "City Police" generator. It was used in conjunction with a 19 plate battery and a special voltage regulator . It was specifically not heavy-duty. It was for cars operated at low speeds with heavy electrical loads. It was not intended for use over 60 mph except for short periods.

Special rear springs were offered in 1951 for Taxicabs, Police Cars, and Special Order Export. They were different from the Station Wagon and Sedan Delivery springs.

What became the 1953 Pontiac was originally intended to be the 1952 model.

Pontiac built an experimental car in 1954 with an L-head six-cylinder in the rear mounted transversely.

The 1953 and 1954 Pontiacs had provisions to accommodate the V- 8 finally introduced in 1955. Some people have reported seeing possible 1953-’54 prototype V-8 cars in Pontiac Detroit area junkyards.

Drawings of never made Pontiacs originally planned include:

The elusive 1954 Sedan Delivery, marked "Canceled 9/14/53". – A 1954 Business Coupe and Sedan Coupe, marked "Canceled 8/17/53". – A 1954 short wheelbase convertible.

A 1956 proposal with the transmission mounted under the seat. It had a flat floor and two driveshafts.

In 1954 a heavy-duty Hydra-Matic conversion package was available. It has an external transmission oil cooler, larger annular pistons, a modified engine water pump, and some other parts. It was intended for police cars, taxis, and road mail carriers. it could not be used on air conditioned cars. The cooler mounted on the transmission.

1954 air conditioned cars used a six bladed fan, 13 pound radiator cap, special equipment generator and battery, and heavy-duty fuel pump. Non-A/C cars used a seven pound cap. Eventually, special water temperature gauges were used in A/C cars because of this difference.

The first stamped steel rocker arm (to be used in the 1955 Pontiac and Chevy engines, ultimately) was made at home by a Pontiac Engineer.

The 1955 GMC L’Universelle Show Van had a front-wheel drive Pontiac V-8 powertrain.

The 1956 Pontiac Club de Mer show car had a brushed metal skin. Guess who the head of Pontiac Advance Design was at that point?

The 1957 and 1958 Pontiac fuel injection systems used different intake manifolds; 1957 was tubular and 1958 was cast.

Notes from Pete Estes indicate the 1959 "Wide-Track was primarily viewed as a styling feature, with the handling advantage seen as secondary."

There was a 1959 proposal for a Pontiac version of the El Camino. One prototype still exists in a private owner’s hands.

Various 1959 studies with different side trim or models versus what was released for production. These included a Star Chief Safari station wagon and a ’Ventura," which was the beginning of the Grand Prix concept. – A 1961 Star Chief two-door sedan. – A 1962 Ventura series (not just a Catalina with the Ventura option).

1963 Tempests with different front end styling versus what was finally used in production.

A 1966 Ventura Safari station wagon with woodgrain.

Pontiac used Cadillac bodies during development of the transaxle, which led to the 1961 Tempest.

The first 1961 Tempest four-cylinder engines were made by putting bob weights in place of piston and rod assemblies in 1958 V-8 engines in Chieftains.

1958 big Pontiacs were used to develop the XB-60 "rope-drive" transaxle for the 1961 Tempest.

Around 1959 Pontiac made 389 cid aluminum cylinder blocks in conjunction with Reynolds Aluminum. They had no liners. In the same period, aluminum heads without seat inserts were made; valve seat wear was a serious problem.

The name "Ventura" was often used on concept sketches for proposed Pontiacs and Tempests.

Pontiac built experimental 1961 Tempests with 316, 347, and 389 cid engines.

A 1961 Tempest was built with a side-mounted radiator and an engine compartment with seals.

A 1961 Catalina was built with a 336 cid V-8 for performance and economy testing.

Automatic overdrive transmissions were tried in large Pontiacs in 1961 and 1969, at least.

While "Ventura" was used as a generic code name for many Pontiac styling proposals, a document has been found that indicates it was the intended name for what became the 1962 Grand Prix. It also says the car was to use special springs for a one inch lower ride height.

Vinyl tops for large Pontiac coupe models were announced as being available as of 1-30-62. "Cobra" grain vinyl was used.

A 35,000 mile chassis lube was intended for the 1962 Tempest.

There are reports of a factory prototype 1964 Tempest with a turbine engine.

There are reports of a factory prototype 1964 Tempest with front- wheel drive.

The 1963 Tempest 326 cid V-8 was really a 336. In 1964 it became a 326.

A 421 cid SOHC V-8 "Sports Engine" was seriously developed by Pontiac. A 395 cid was also proposed. 1963 test data on the 421 SOHC showed the four-barrel version produced more power than the Tri-power one.

An Engineering report dated 5-29-63 is titled "Preliminary

Performance and Fuel Economy Comparison - G.T.O. (with periods!) versus 326 HO engine and 326 low compression ratio engine".

Data was found that indicates an informational description of what became the 1964 GTO was published inside Pontiac on 7-3-63, revised 8-13-63, 8-19-63, and 10-18-63. The 8-13-63 list indicates the GTO crest was to be red, white, and blue. It also shows that the GTO was intended to have a 116 inch wheelbase (with a modified suspension) versus the Tempest 115 inches.

Pontiac designed and built a front-wheel drive 1964 Tempest with a 326 cid V-8. It used unequal length driveshafts. The engine was mounted longitudinally.

There was a plan for a six bolt rocker cover for the 1964 Pontiac V-8.

There was a Hilborn-like fuel injection system designed by Pontiac Engineering for the GTO.

Pontiac partially developed a Rochester six-barrel carburetor. It had a 3-2 barrels on a common base.

The 1966 Tri-Power and 1967 four-barrel intake manifold/carburetor/ air cleaner systems had equivalent power. The restrictive Tri-Power intake manifold was replaced by a 1967 four-barrel design that was related to the early 1960’s NASCAR manifold. In addition, the small Tri- Power air cleaners were quite restrictive also versus the large element used with the four-barrel.

One Pontiac OHC V-8 is currently running in a private owner’s car. Several different Pontiac OHC V-Ss were built.

Pontiac tested a water heated 2-4 barrel ram intake manifold for the 1965 GTO engine.

A RPD speed-density fuel injection system was tested on a 1965 GTO engine with a modified 3-2 manifold, a ram manifold, and a cross-ram manifold.

A 265 cid OHC6 was built for possible use in the Catalina and Tempest. It apparently had a longer stroke. One-barrel and four-barrel versions were built.

There was a plan for cast iron eight-lug wheels for the 1966 Tempest. Brake drum distortion and high unsprung weight killed the program.

1966 Engineering Bulletin P66-22, dated 10-14-65, indicates the release of a "LeMans Ride Option for GTO". It was to include LeMans V- 8 springs, shocks, and stabilizer bar. The purpose was "for the owner who desires a GTO with its looks and performance but with LeMans type ride."

An engineering drawing dated 8-23-65 shows the cast iron styled wheel/brake for the 1966 Tempest. It shows eight lug

nuts. It had 24 cooling fins versus 16 on the aluminum version. This wheel never went into production due to high weight and distortion.

What became the 1966 230 cid OHC6 was originally to have been 215 cid.

Pontiac Engineering Bulletin 66-20 indicates that the OHC6 was to have black painted ribs on the cam cover and timing belt cover. Red paint was to be on the "Overhead Cam" letters, the "PMD" letters, and the ribs that framed the PMD letters.

Pontiac developed a rear mounted transmission, the EX-724, which was used in five experimental independent rear suspension transaxle cars.

Pontiac designed an independent rear suspension with inboard disc brakes. A number of experimental cars were built.

Pontiac designed a variable venturi carburetor. The design had no throttle blades. Rochester Products took the work over.

Pontiac Engineering Bulletin 66-16 indicates that an electrically heated front seat and seat back was to have been a special order option on the 1966 Bonneville Brougham only.

Pontiac developed (starting around 1967) a X-4 engine. It was an aluminum, two cycle, four-cylinder, air cooled, fuel injected engine.

As late as 7-15-66, the 1967 Firebird was called the "PF" car. What appears to be the "Banshee" name is hazy on the drawings. What becarre the Firebird 400 was originally to be the "TT" with a different hood and emblems than finally used.

TT stood for "Tourist Trophy". Some data indicates the TT was also to have the four-barrel OHC 6 available.

The original 1967 Firebird option list shows "D35 - Bullet outside rearview mirror".

Pontiac built a 1967 Firebird with a ground effects machine in the trunk to increase traction.

Many Canadian Pontiacs, including the Canadian specific muscle cars, used Chevrolet engines.

A 1968 GTO Hatchback prototype was built. It was white with blue stripes (ala the 1969 Trans Am).

The prototype 1969 Trans Am was silver. It has a fiberglass hood with push down and rotate style hood locks.

Some 1969 development projects on the Pontiac 303 cid Trans-Am engine included center feed crankshaft oiling and gravity feed camshaft oiling.

In 1969, Pontiac proposed an aluminum 297 cid V-8. Experimental 250 cid versions were built.

In 1969, Pontiac built a 230 OHC 6 "Hemi". It had 325 gross hp.

What became the 1969 Tempest Custom S was originally to be called the "Pontiac TC".

Around 1969, Pontiac Engineering installed a 318 cid Plymouth V-8 in a Catalina for a performance and economy study.

Some 1970 GTOs were equipped with an optional vacuum controlled exhaust system called "The Tiger Button". A knob, similar to that used for RAM AIR, changed the exhaust sound. Few were sold before the option was canceled.

The 1970-1/2 Firebird came close to having a production Bendix Fuel Injection System (TBI type).

It’s believed that approximately 100 1971-1/2 GT-37s were built. Evidence of cars built at Fremont, as well as Pontiac, was uncovered. After a lot of searching in various records, no announcement was found that the 1971-1/2 existed although the stripes did find their way into the parts catalog.

A drawing has been found that indicates the original plan for the 1971 GT-37 was to have it use the 1970 GT-37 stripe, which is the same as the 1969 Judge.

For those that wonder: Yes, the candy apple green color on the 1971 evaporative emissions line clip near the canister is correct!

The major change in 1971 vs. 1970 horsepower ratings didn’t come from the change in compression ratio. Instead, it comes from the use of more realistic net hp ratings in 1971 (which included a fan, an air cleaner, exhaust system, etc.) versus the gross hp used in 1970.

The 1972 "A" duck tail spoiler was never installed in production. Factory pictures exist showing it installed on a LeMans GT and a GTO. Some parts appear to have been sold through GM Parts Division and installed.

The 1972 GTO was originally going to have a 350 cid four-barrel engine as standard.

What became the 1973 Grand Am was originally intended to be the GTO.

One 1973 "A" SD 455 was built. It was in a Grand Am and was an engineering prototype. There were no production 1973 "A" SD 455s.

No 1973 production "A" cars were produced with functional NASA scoops. However, one prototype, now in private hands, does exist. In addition, some other units may have been sold through GM Parts Division and installed.

What became the 1973 "A" was intended to be released as a 1972, but was delayed by the long GM strike.

SD455 Formula Firebirds came from the factory with Trans Am hoods and shakers.

Prior to the development of the 1977 151 cid four-cylinder (which started in 1974), four-cylinder proposals using V-8 tooling (like the old 195 cid version) were looked at. Possibly the most unusual was a S-4. This engine used the most forward cylinder on one side, then the two inner cylinders on the other side, and an end cylinder on the same side as the first. A prototype was built using a V-8 block and bob weights. It had unacceptable vibrations, later analyzed mathematically.

This proposal resurfaced in 1978. A prototype vehicle, using the Grand Am appearance, was built. This vehicle, now updated to 1980 appearance, is in the Pontiac Historical Vehicle Collection. A similar proposal, using LeMans sheet metal, was proposed to be sold by GM Truck and Coach.

The 1979 Firebird Type K came close to going into production. The build process required that a Firebird be partially built in the plant, transferred to an outside body facility, and then returned to the plant for completion. As a result, the total number of Firebirds able to be built was reduced due to the assembly line interruptions. A financial analysis of the situation showed Pontiac would lose profit from this situation and the project was canceled.

One of the 1980 Phoenix optional trims combined a basically black interior with saddle colored seat inserts. The trim brochure shows saddle inserts on the door trim panels also, but due to a factory error, some cars were built with all black door panels.

Many factory photos and Product Description Manuals (an assembly guide) are incorrect versus how the cars were actually made.

In 1981, Pontiac proposed a "Safari" pickup based on the Sunbird. Production would have been in 1985 or 1986. The Norwood plant recently built one on its own.

The 1982 Firebird was designed to contain the Pontiac manufactured V-8. The Turbo 301 required engine repackaging to make it fit.

There was a serious production design to use the 1.8 liter, four- cylinder, non-turbo engine in the 1984 Fiero. The intent was to provide even higher levels of fuel economy.

1,229 1986-1/2 Grand Prix 2 + 2s were made. Despite original plans, no 1987s were made. There were also four 1986-1/2 prototypes (including a black one and a maroon one). Beware, some people have already made additional ones by buying parts from Pontiac. All production ones were silver fastbacks.

(source: PontiacPower)

[daves87rs]

Wow.

[balthazar]

Cool list, I think you posted this once a long while back.

Pontiac also developed a light-duty, low-profile tank during WWII, but I would have to dig thru a 4-foot stack of publications to post any details here.

>>"The 1956 Pontiac Club de Mer show car had a brushed metal skin. Guess who the head of Pontiac Advance Design was at that point? "<<

It wasn't DeLorean- he was hired by PMD in '57.

There is currently a full-size repro undergoing construction- as the original has eluded fans for 45+ years.

>>"A 421 cid SOHC V-8 "Sports Engine" was seriously developed by Pontiac. A 395 cid was also proposed. 1963 test data on the 421 SOHC showed the four-barrel version produced more power than the Tri-power one. "<<

The SOHC 421 developed 630 HP @ 6800 RPM ('Big blocks are only low-RPM torque motors' ) and only weighed 75 lbs more than a production 421. There was also a 3-valve version of this motor.

There was also a Tri-Power DOHC 389 with 4-valve heads, aluminum cross-ram intakes & PMD-developed speed-density fuel injection.

>>"One Pontiac OHC V-8 is currently running in a private owner’s car. "<<

This is (one of the) 421 SOHCs, in the '63 GP of retired Pontiac Chief Engineer 'Mac' McKeller (for whom many hi-po Pontiac camshaft grinds are named).

>>"The 1966 Tri-Power and 1967 four-barrel intake manifold/carburetor/ air cleaner systems had equivalent power..... the small Tri- Power air cleaners were quite restrictive also versus the large element used with the four-barrel."<<

It was only the GTO that used the 3 individual air filters; all the big cars used a large single air cleaner/filter.

>>"There was a plan for cast iron eight-lug wheels for the 1966 Tempest. Brake drum distortion and high unsprung weight killed the program. "<<

These were proposed as early as for use on the '63 Tempest (same design). Beautiful wheels, but I'm not aware even a single set have survived.

>>"Pontiac developed a rear mounted transmission, the EX-724, which was used in five experimental independent rear suspension transaxle cars."<<

I believe this was in '59-60. How I would love to find a '60 Cat 2-dr with a transaxle in a junkyard!!

>>"Pontiac developed (starting around 1967) a X-4 engine. It was an aluminum, two cycle, four-cylinder, air cooled, fuel injected engine."<<

Hey Sixty8- maybe this is the X-4 concept you mentioned recently??

>>"Many Canadian Pontiacs, including the Canadian specific muscle cars, used Chevrolet engines."<<

Canadian Pontiacs used Chevy engines at a 100% installation rate, at least from the late '50s ('58??) into the early-mid '70s). They're all Chevy engines & chassis's.

>>"The major change in 1971 vs. 1970 horsepower ratings... comes from the use of more realistic net hp ratings in 1971 (which included a fan, an air cleaner, exhaust system, etc.) versus the gross hp used in 1970."<<

I have always associated this change-over with '72: all spec sources I have list gross HP for '71 models.

Please bring back Divisional Engineering departments (and budgets)!!!! Look at all the fantastic engine / powertrain programs listed above!

Edited August 19, 2006 by balthazar

[HarleyEarl]

I agree, it made for such a dynamic atmosphere at GM and I dare say, more innovation. I love finding out about the behind-the-scenes stuff the various divisions were up to.

[razoredge]

Wow, thats alot of coulda, shoulda, woodas but didnt's. Look at all the money wasted..............musta been nice to have all that industrial and financial might and just toss it to the wind. Now look today, way behind the manufacturers they were fighting down back when we stopped the world from becoming a very dark place. Gotta give the Europeans credit for doing the very best they could with what they had left to work with, while here, the Big three just balked and teased with what they could do but wouldnt.

Wonder if thats why they survived better for longer ? Could it just be ? ...........

Great post Harley, thanks !

[balthazar]

Who, razor, 'survived better for longer'?

A great deal of Pontiac's projects trickled into RPO stuff. The cars at the time ('60s) were top-shelf, #3 in the U.S. and the money was pouring in. Would you rather Pontiac just sat back and coasted and researched nothing? I don't get this....

[razoredge]

Who, razor, 'survived better for longer'?

A great deal of Pontiac's projects trickled into RPO stuff. The cars at the time ('60s) were top-shelf, #3 in the U.S. and the money was pouring in. Would you rather Pontiac just sat back and coasted and researched nothing? I don't get this....

182301[/snapback]

you dont understand my point...............actually my point was similiar to yours

though I do feel GM spent way to much time showing what they coulda shoulda woulda but wont..............just because ? penny pinchers ? profits ? whatever, todays its bitting them in the ass............OHC V8 finally made it to market in ? 92? 93? and its a mechanics nightmare. Independant rear suspension finally made it to mass market in typical cars, when ? Not Corvette or the invisible Tempest but when ? Aluminum castings, when ? better suspension technology, when ? Now today this very same company is playing catch up and some hardened fans of this company wont cut slack to companies struggling to just catch a foot hold in post war torn Europe............ that was where I was comming from.

We could be the next DeSoto, Jaguar, Hudson, Triumph.............as the "world" turns. Then Ill be defending General Motors cars on some Kia forum..............

understand now ? :AH-HA_wink:

Edited August 20, 2006 by razoredge

[Sixty8panther]

The 1953 and 1954 Pontiacs had provisions to accommodate the V- 8 finally introduced in 1955. Some people have reported seeing possible 1953-’54 prototype V-8 cars in Pontiac Detroit area junkyards.

I'd give my ::::::: to have a 1953 Pontiac prototype with a '55 V8 motor.

There was a 1959 proposal for a Pontiac version of the El Camino. One prototype still exists in a private owner’s hands.

Name? Camino... it's your ultimate whip. A Pontiac elCamino.

I wonder if this one ever had a working name? Wasn't the later 1980s

A-body Camino with a Bonneville nose called something?

An engineering drawing dated 8-23-65 shows the cast iron styled wheel/brake for the 1966 Tempest. It shows eight lug

nuts. It had 24 cooling fins versus 16 on the aluminum version. This wheel never went into production due to high weight and distortion.

This was a great concept that I think might have held a lot of promisse.

The weight savings if enginered properly would be great while cooling

and brake efficiency would be absolutely spectacular.

I know a certain someone on this Forum who has a complete set of

these in his garage... I've seen them with my own eyes.

Pontiac built a 1967 Firebird with a ground effects machine in the trunk to increase traction.

WTF is a 'ground effects machine?'

In 1969, Pontiac built a 230 OHC 6 "Hemi". It had 325 gross hp.

Holy Coolness Batman.

Around 1969, Pontiac Engineering installed a 318 cid Plymouth V-8 in a Catalina for a performance and economy study.

Mean time Toyota was busy disassembling & reverse enginering Corvairs,

Camaros, Falcons, Opels, VWs, Morris Minors & Minis.

Some 1970 GTOs were equipped with an optional vacuum controlled exhaust system called "The Tiger Button". A knob, similar to that used for RAM AIR, changed the exhaust sound. Few were sold before the option was canceled.

Now I really really want a 1970 Pontiac GTO.

The 1970-1/2 Firebird came close to having a production Bendix Fuel Injection System (TBI type).

How very cool that would have been? Too bad it never happened.

For those that wonder: Yes, the candy apple green color on the 1971 evaporative emissions line clip near the canister is correct!

So in 1971 Pontiac was trying to already looks like a "green" freindly company?

No 1973 production "A" cars were produced with functional NASA scoops. However, one prototype, now in private hands, does exist. In addition, some other units may have been sold through GM Parts Division and installed.

You mean NASCA scoops right? The ones that look like this:

XXXX

XXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXX

XXXX

L.S.D. is bad. And no I don't mean Posi-Trac or Sure-Grip.

Many factory photos and Product Description Manuals (an assembly guide) are incorrect versus how the cars were actually made.

True for most manufacturers.

I'm still hopping to find a Chevrolet Panther emblem on eBay someday.

The 1979 Firebird Type K came close to going into production. The build process required that a Firebird be partially built in the plant, transferred to an outside body facility, and then returned to the plant for completion. As a result, the total number of Firebirds able to be built was reduced due to the assembly line interruptions. A financial analysis of the situation showed Pontiac would lose profit from this situation and the project was canceled.

They should have done it SLP style... no interuptions in the production line.

Just like a custom built Cadillac Opera Coupe, a Hearse or Limo where the

sheetmetal is getting rearranged but the chassis/motor is untouched.

-------

>>"Pontiac developed (starting around 1967) a X-4 engine. It was an aluminum, two cycle, four-cylinder, air cooled, fuel injected engine."<<

Hey Sixty8- maybe this is the X-4 concept you mentioned recently??

182201[/snapback]

Must be... although you'd think something with a werid engine like that

would not get convoluded in my memory banks with the I4/V6 Fiero.

I'd love to see this X-4 motor. Technically isn't an X-4 motor a "radial"?

Please bring back Divisional Engineering departments (and budgets)!!!! Look at all the fantastic engine / powertrain programs listed above!

182201[/snapback]

Agreed... although we may have to wait till GM is healthier and has a

better financial lookout to set up individual dept. for each division.

How about just four diffeent ones?

Chevrolet/Pontiac

Chevrolet Truck/GMC/Isuzu

Buick/Cadillac

Saturn/Opel/Vauxhall/SAAB

Or how about each division has their own separate heads, intake,

exhaust, pistons & cams for the same block (i.e. LS-series V8)

Edited August 20, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[HarleyEarl]

Here's a LeMans El Camino:

[HarleyEarl]

Just for fun, the Pontiac Fiero Concept car:

Edited August 21, 2006 by HarleyEarl

[Camino LS6]

Wow! lots of interesting stuff here!

I can shed a little more light on the El Camino thing. While I never heard of the '59 version, I know of the '66? full-size prototype and the late '70's/early '80's prototypes. I'll try to post the pics. A Pontiac dealer also built a '68 Lemans version from a brand new Lemans and a brand new El Camino in a bid to get PMD to offer a production version. Although that effort failed, I have seen printed articles that indicate this car led directly to the production of GMC's Sprint.

[ocnblu]

I think it's NACA scoops.

Hey, when did that Fiero concept come out? It's groovy.

[razoredge]

This Pontiac frontal treatment, I never liked, even when young, its just too much

The 66 version is acceptable but Im still glad they did not make it, the Lemans & GTO were better off without a "truck" in my opinion. Somehow even the sixties Pontiac frontend doesnt go well.

[Camino LS6]

This Pontiac frontal treatment, I never liked, even when young, its just too much

The 66 version is acceptable but Im still glad they did not make it, the Lemans & GTO were better off without a "truck" in my opinion. Somehow even the sixties Pontiac frontend doesnt go well.

182610[/snapback]

Surprisingly, I agree with you Razor. The '68 would have come off better with a GTO styled nose but I still don't think it worked terribly well. The later car(black and white pic) works very well for its time and I would have liked to see it in production. The full-size versions just don't have the same sporting nature that made the Chevelle-based El Camino so desirable, no matter the division building them.

[balthazar]

razor= >>"you dont understand my point.... understand now?"<<

Yes, but that's a rather large leap to say that engineering R&D from the '60s NOT making it to showrooms THEN is responsible for the shape fo things going on TODAY; too large a leap for me. LOT of other factors involved here.....

sixty8= >>"I know a certain someone on this Forum who has a complete set of these in his garage... I've seen them with my own eyes."<<

I think I know who.... sending PM......

>>"...no interuptions in the production line. Just like a custom built Cadillac Opera Coupe, a Hearse or Limo where the sheetmetal is getting rearranged but the chassis/motor is untouched."<<

None of those listed above were built by Cadillac or on Cadillac assembly lines.

>>"I wonder if this one ('59 Pontiac 'ElCamino') ever had a working name? "<<

Doesn't appear so. The survivor has "Catalina" on the rear quarters and uses a Safari tailgate, so it also has "Safari" on it, but this was a proposal by Pontiac Engineering, so a final name or even a working name was not reached at that point. PMD GM nixed the project in view of dwindling Ranchero/ElCamino sales. Hopefully it'll be on the hobbyist show circuit at some point; it's been a 30-yr resto process.

The '80 Pontiac 'Camino' proposal was a front-clip update of a '78 proposal, where it got the '80 GA nose.

>>"You mean NASCA scoops right? The ones that look like this"<<

No- Pontiac called them NACA, after the predecessor to NASA. But you got the scoop shape spot on:

The factoid states no functional NACA hoods were sold, but plenty of non-functional ones were. I believe opened scoops failed to meet fed drive-by noise limits, and this is right around the time the Pontiac shakers were sealed off ('74??).

Also note: there was a proposal for a '75 GTO, based again on the Ventura that recieved the new chassis for '75. Plans called for a similar set-up to the '74: 350 power, shaker scoop, etc. Pics are not known to exist, perhaps an actual prototype wasn't built.

[balthazar]

The '66 version of the Pontiac 'Camino' is based on the full-sized line (that's the '66 GP nose). I like it a lot, I think it works stylistically, tho not business case-wise.

Would prefer owning the '59 by far, tho.

[razoredge]

The later car(black and white pic) works very well for its time and I would have liked to see it in production.

182632[/snapback]

agreed, it works out better, less awkward.

The yellow Skylark GS conversion privately done is still my favorite, you know the one.

[Camino LS6]

agreed, it works out better, less awkward.

The yellow Skylark GS conversion privately done is still my favorite, you know the one.

182674[/snapback]

Yup. It's a sweetie

[HarleyEarl]

What yellow Skylark GS conversion?!.....do you have pics?

Edit: oops...just saw the thumbnail.

Edited August 21, 2006 by HarleyEarl

[razoredge]

razor= >>"you dont understand my point.... understand now?"<<

Yes, but that's a rather large leap to say that engineering R&D from the '60s NOT making it to showrooms THEN is responsible for the shape fo things going on TODAY; too large a leap for me. LOT of other factors involved here.....

182649[/snapback]

Geeze, we just dont communicate well. Lots of other factors today, yes, 20 years ago yes, still what a mess they made when clearly the ideas, potential, engineering were there and yet they trudged onward with the same ol, same ol..............see BMW's "great ideas" Benedict Arnold commercials............ in so many ways that seems to me like a direct poke at the American automotives state of being. How many times have they dropped the ball when it was a clean catch ? I know ! I know ! the energy crisis and environmental concerns occupied all resources during the 70's and 80's but still, I look back to all that was put on the back burner or ignored and the styling of the exotic dream cars just barely showing their face on production cars just burns me. Well maybe thats how GM survived, by not sticking their neck too far out there and keeping tight budgets......yet they spent all that money on teases.............hey, Im no accountant, no marketing manager, so I guess there were legitimate reasons.

[Camino LS6]

What yellow Skylark GS conversion?!.....do you have pics?

Edit:  oops...just saw the thumbnail.

182684[/snapback]

Cool, huh?

[HarleyEarl]

Crap that's nice! I had never heard of, or seen it before.

[Camino LS6]

The conversion is very nice, it's a GSX with a bed. Interior is Buick as are the quarters, tailgate and taillights. It's much more than a Buick nose grafted onto an El Camino - great workmanship. I'd love to see it in person.

That said, we should stop hijacking the Pontiac flavor of this thread,I guess.

[trinacriabob]

THANK YOU for all this good info, Harley.

I love the Pontiac line. Sometimes a bit overstyled, but always distinctive. So much so that the twin-grille treatment has successfully remained a signature for PMD.

There's so much to love that, as I look at the history of the brand, it's amazing how anyone would choose a totally vapid foreign car.

[Camino LS6]

THANK YOU for all this good info, Harley.

I love the Pontiac line.  Sometimes a bit overstyled, but always distinctive.  So much so that the twin-grille treatment has successfully remained a signature for PMD.

There's so much to love that, as I look at the history of the brand, it's amazing how anyone would choose a totally vapid foreign car.

182716[/snapback]

Well said!

[76ChevyTrucker]

I really enjoyed reading all of that. Thanks a ton for all the posts and info. I really liked seeing the various El Camino conversions, they look pretty good although I do have to agree that it wouldn't be right for Poncho to have such a monster.

[Camino LS6]

I really enjoyed reading all of that.  Thanks a ton for all the posts and info.  I really liked seeing the various El Camino conversions, they look pretty good although I do have to agree that it wouldn't be right for Poncho to have such a monster.

182722[/snapback]

WHOA!

I never said Pontiac shouldn't have something along these lines, but it would have to be styled appropriately.

I actually believe this kind of vehicle may be more appropriate now than ever before for Pontiac. (along with a sportwagon)

Glad you enjoyed the thread sidetrack. :AH-HA_wink:

[HarleyEarl]

I agree. Most American makes have a long and storied history. They have heritage. I identity with it...it's part of my culture. I want that in my garage.

[HarleyEarl]

Yes, yes, yes. Pontiac is a logical brand for a sport wagon.

Here's the 2000 Pontiac Firebird Hurst Hauler:

[Camino LS6]

Yes, yes, yes.  Pontiac is a logical brand for a sport wagon.

Here's the 2000 Pontiac Firebird Hurst Hauler:

182738[/snapback]

I think I'm one of the few in the F-body crowd that actually likes that car. It was on Ebay a while back (I don't think it sold). That car started as a body-in -white, it has a cool story.

[deftonesfan867]

Thanks for the awesome read Harley. This is what Pontiac should be today, but sadly isn't, hopefully someday the exciment division of GM will return to X-ciment.