Flint defends media

[haypops]

click here

Take a look at the sales chart that Flint presents! What is that reverse alphabetical order with mistakes?

[Angry Dad]

It's so easy to prove Jerry wrong.

Press loves Scion XB, case closed. The vast majority of the "Autobeat" "writers" just reguritate the bile the manufacturers feed them these days.

How many shrimp has Toyota thrown at these idiots to buy good ink for the POS?

[Flybrian]

I don't read anything written by Flintstone anymore because its just a rehash of articles and opinion columns we and others have discussed two to three weeks prior...

[mustang84]

I think Grandpa needs a nap!

[regfootball]

toyota must give great hed. wow. unbelievable.

Frankly, like the ordinary American, the car writers probably give the foreign vehicles the benefit of a doubt because they've had such good records. Thus Toyota has had some recalls lately, but they get a pass because they've been so good in the past. They still come out leaders of practically every poll of car owners

Toyota is pulling the stick, big time.

Although he DOES make some valid points here.....

That hasn't been true at General Motors or Ford. At GM it's hard to find an engineer or car expert near the top, at least until Robert Lutz was hired as vice chairman. The leaders seem to be financial men who believe that costs are the number-one priority, not building the best vehicles. Certainly costs are important but the result has left GM years late, years late, in new engine and transmission developments, with the company still putting four-speed automatics in luxury cars (like the Cadillac DTS) when the competition is putting seven- and eight-speed transmissions in its luxury cars.

And the men at the top of Detroit automakers never admit any errors or missteps. No matter how much market share is lost, no matter what the dollar losses, they never take responsibility.

it is a definite product of the mindset of typical American executive and businessman. They love to skimp the product and think customer's are too stupid to notice.

In my book, it would be fun to fire car people with that mindset. Costs are important, but giving the customer what they want or perceive to want is much more important and is the critical way to make your business a success.

In America we tend to depend too much on marketing and less on creating something people actually need or want in detail.

I guess I see the gist of his article, but to dish off the notion that the press has no role in it, is hogwash. Toyota is chewing on so much journalist hot dogs its not even funny. THEY DO bury Toyota's recalls. They DO give them too much of a pass.

Edited August 14, 2006 by regfootball

[Hudson]

The vast majority of the "Autobeat" "writers" just reguritate the bile the manufacturers feed them these days.

Yes...and that's what they do, present other news reports and press releases. They're not doing additional research, they're simply presenting various news and PR reports in one package...and anyone who subscribes to it undestands this fact.

I am the first person to step up and disagree with Mr. Flint's writings...and I have said so for many years, even told him myself. But he's spot on (for once) on this one.

There have been times when magazine reports have shown numbers that didn't match the story being told and some times this has surprised me (the recent C&D comparison of the Z06/911/Ferrari for one), but I've also driven cars that, on paper, would lead you to believe one thing when the better car had the worst numbers. The whole story cannot be told in quarter mile times, skid pad numbers, and fuel economy. C&D's "gotta have it factor" doesn't cover it properly (and, to my thoughts, they get it wrong more than right), but the concept is there...there's something to seeing/feeling/hearing the car in person that cannot be listed in a fact sheet.

It's funny that I've chosen C&D as a problem, because THEY pointed out this problem with their biggest competitor (Motor Trend) about 15 years ago in a great spoof called "Moto Rooter."

Flint's report is spot on.

[regfootball]

Yes...and that's what they do, present other news reports and press releases. They're not doing additional research, they're simply presenting various news and PR reports in one package...and anyone who subscribes to it undestands this fact.

180150[/snapback]

It makes their job easier to not have to research on their own. Its easier to spit out what it says in a press release.

[Hudson]

It makes their job easier to not have to research on their own.  Its easier to spit out what it says in a press release.

It's a brilliant business plan. Read a bunch of press releases, newspapers, magazines, and websites...summarize them...email them out. "Busy" executives pay for someone else to read to them. I wish I had thought of it.

[The O.C.]

Flint's report is spot on.

180150[/snapback]

Damn straight it is.

Coming from someone that experienced 11 years inside the General's hallowed walls....it IS the corporate culture at GM, no matter what your management level, to push blame onto outside sources such as "the media" or the "uneducated consumers."

It is a level of arrogance you truly cannot believe.

[evok]

Damn straight it is.

180176[/snapback]

Could not have said it any better myself.

"The problem, of course, isn't the press. It's been the product , but the executives are too smart than to call the American people, the folks who buy those foreign cars, dumb or treasonous or foreigner-lovers. It's the press."

[traderchpl]

Although he DOES make some valid points here.....

it is a definite product of the mindset of typical American executive and businessman.  They love to skimp the product and think customer's are too stupid to notice.

.......................................

I guess I see the gist of his article, but to dish off the notion that the press has no role in it, is hogwash.  Toyota is chewing on so much journalist hot dogs its not even funny.  THEY DO bury Toyota's recalls.  They DO give them too much of a pass.

180147[/snapback]

Totally agree on both counts, Reg. Like usual, your comments are always a good read.

Here's my take:

GM has gone out of its way to NOT learn from previous mistakes. Anyone remember the mid-80s thru the mid 90s when GM was WAY behind on using 4-speed trannies? I mean, seriously, how could they POSSIBLY let the EXACT SAME THING happpen again? That kind of BULL&^%* is REALLY frustrating to those of us who love GM, AND, I bet, even to auto writers.

Let's not get into the whole "ABS prevents accidents, so our cars don't need airbags" BS. Do you guys remember that crap??? I mean, you just have to laugh.

They just make it so hard to be loyal. But we still are.

If I were an auto writer, I would be ripping those idiots a new hole every day.

And, just like every single other type of "journalist" ("evangelicals" who seek to make changes in the world rather than just report the facts), auto writers are very egotisitical.

So (one theory of mine), if anyone remembers, GM really started universally taking it in the butt in write-ups about 5-6 years ago. Look at the improvements made since then....Stunning, I think. So, these writers just might think they have something to do with GMs impending but shaky turnaround, and aren't letting up. I know I wouldn't.

And people just have to know that whether reading the auto section or the front page (ahem..NY Times), that NOTHING is written in the press without an agenda.

[CARBIZ]

GM was way behind in using 4 spd trannies????? My '91 Caprice had a 4 spd automatic, standard ABS and a driver's air bag. What are you talking about??? I'm not going to bother to look it up, but I know GM had 4 spd automatics in the mid-80s. As GM replaced platforms, they made air bags, ABS and 4 spds available, all through the late '80s and early '90s. Just like every other car company did. Are we going to condemn a company because of how many gears it has? That is plain silly. Every damned article I read bitches about how many gears GM's trannies have. Let's focus on the negative while ignoring all the things that GM is doing right, like OnStar and having the most RELIABLE trannies out there. I don't work at GM but I have always noticed media bias, not just in the car industry either. I view the media with the same opinion I do politicians: mostly liars. GM has made real mistakes, to be sure, but this assclown yammering that Toyota has outsold both Ford and Chrysler last month is just "piling on." In fact, that appears to me to be the POINT of the article, to let this jerk trumpet those sales figures yet again so that anyone even thinking about buying a GM because GM is #1 would think twice because it is inevitable that Toyota will over take it.

[haypops]

Evok, Hudson, OC; I understand what you are saying and do see some point in Flints article, but the following annoys me to no end:

            Toyota              146,266              Ford                  90,483              DaimlerChrysler  55,660              General Motors  176,623

Could you explain the order of results to me. This is presented as a table and as such the order has importance. I have over 40 publications in the literature and this is not allowed. What order of presentation is he using? Reverse alphabetical order, decreasing sales volume, his personal likes? Perhaps I am just getting old and ill-tempered.

[traderchpl]

GM was way behind in using 4 spd trannies????? My '91 Caprice had a 4 spd automatic, standard ABS and a driver's air bag.  What are you talking about???  I'm not going to bother to look it up, but I know GM had 4 spd automatics in the mid-80s.  As GM replaced platforms, they made air bags, ABS and 4 spds available, all through the late '80s and early '90s.  Just like every other car company did.

  Are we going to condemn a company because of how many gears it has?  That is plain silly.

180231[/snapback]

Relax. OK? Point was, they were way, way behind then, whether you remember is irrelevant. They WERE way behind everyone else on 4 speeds and airbags (and are just now getting caught up on airbags...If you're not willing to look it up, that's your choice) They didn't learn from that. As a GM loyalist, that frustrates me. I wasn't condemning GM. Just frustration at the management, OK? That was my point. Again, relax.

Mismanagement, in turn gives the "journalists" a foothold. I'm not denying Flint is an idiot in the style of the most recent Roger Freidman incarnation, but GM does bring stuff on themselves.

[CARBIZ]

And from 1993 on, GM made ABS standard on every single vehicle, something that nobody else bothered to do. You can pick a point that matters to YOU and chip away at GM, or at any manufacturer, for that matter. What car lines didn't have 4 spd automatics, BTW? I do know that GM was myopic with respect about what Japan Inc. was doing until about 5 years ago. For example, because Chrysler did not offer a 4 spd on the Neon, GM never made the 4 spd standard on the Cavalier until 1999, although it was available earlier than that. However, the large and mid-sized vehicles all started getting 4 spds in the late '80s, about the same time line that Ford and Chrysler were following.

[hyperv6]

I will agree Product is Big part of the problem but it goes much deeper than that. The press has beat down GM and other American cars at time when they deserved it but other time when it was not true. I will not blame the press for the down fall of Detroit but I do blame them for not always being fair when Detroit does get something right. Poor writers share in some of the blame for inconsistant reporting. If press wants to be taken seriously it needs to be fair across the board. I would like to see them continue to be critical where it is justified [how else is Detroit to going to improve]. But in turn when Detroit or GM does something right damn well fess up and give them credit. I think the new Saturn Aura and other new Saturn models will be telling not only of imporved GM quality but also of the press and seeing if they are willing to be fair in their judgment. A good writer would be fair no matter the origin of the auto many are not and that is due to a poor writer. As for the public they for the most part are pretty ignorent when it comes to cars. This was not a major factor in day past but as cars have been more complicated it is a major factor today. Most people today just want to know how much the lease payment is, how good is the gas mileage and that they will not have to visit the dealer in the next 3 years. Pretty simple but important things most buyers today all want to know. The import companys have deliverd on these points and that leads to satisfaction. Combine this with a poor writer the public would believe anything because they don't know any better. Jerry in his story points out that companies like Toyota are now getting a break because of their past and he points out GM is headed in the right direction, Jerry in truth is headed to where the press needs to go and is fair in his story. In the past things were not this fair and some writers still can't see past their own likes and dislikes. The bottom line today is the Automotive press is not one sided it is just poor quality like most other press outlets. For every good writer you have 3 piss poor writers out their no matter what the topic in the press. The media is no better than any other industry which lacks good workers and talented employees. I fully agree Detroit still has a lot to improve in quality and deserves the bumps on the head but the press as a whole could still use a great step up in quality themselves. I guess when so many writers are needed and you have such few talented writers the news industy will suffer as a whole.This topic came up at lunch where one of my co workers was a PR guy for one of the large tire companies and still is a free lance automotive writer. We spoke of how the Auto Magazine industry is a tough buisness and is hurting just as much as the news media outlets [tv, newspapers etc] are for good and talented people. The smart writers are few and far inbetween. Many that are excellent writers are making money doing other things as most writers don't make enough to buy many of the cars they write about. Those who can do and those who can't write! At least in some cases.Bottom line is both sides could use an improvment in quality.

Edited August 15, 2006 by hyperv6

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I think Grandpa needs a nap!

180105[/snapback]

Image corrected.

[evok]

Evok, Hudson, OC; I understand what you are saying and do see some point in Flints article, but the following annoys me to no end:

Could you explain the order of results to me.  This is presented as a table and as such the order has importance.  I have over 40 publications in the literature and this is not allowed.  What order of presentation is he using?  Reverse alphabetical order, decreasing sales volume, his personal likes?  Perhaps I am just getting old and ill-tempered.

180232[/snapback]

"In July 1 Toyota (including Lexus and Scion) outsold 2 Ford and outsold 3 Chrysler and closed in further on 4 General Motors. Here are the numbers:"

1 Toyota 146,266

2 Ford 90,483

3 DaimlerChrysler 55,660

4 General Motors 176,623

[traderchpl]

And from 1993 on, GM made ABS standard on every single vehicle, something that nobody else bothered to do.  You can pick a point that matters to YOU and chip away at GM, or at any manufacturer, for that matter.

  What car lines didn't have 4 spd automatics, BTW?  I do know that GM was myopic with respect about what Japan Inc. was doing until about 5 years ago.  For example, because Chrysler did not offer a 4 spd on the Neon, GM never made the 4 spd standard on the Cavalier until 1999, although it was available earlier than that.  However, the large and mid-sized vehicles all started getting 4 spds in the late '80s, about the same time line that Ford and Chrysler were following.

180253[/snapback]

To avoid the risk of a tit-for-tat argument with you 'BIZ (especially because I usually like what write), I would just say that there were several truck lines (specific example: mid 80s full-size vans vs E-150) and mid-size fwd car lines that were slow to get 4 speeds (Chevy Corsica, Pontiac Grand Am). Old news, I know....but should have been lessons learned.

As far as ABS, which you have now commented on twice, I will just say that I was showing my amusement at the "Our cars have ABS, to avoid accidents, so they don't need airbags" argument that WAS used in the 90's.

Now, once again, I am a GM fan, so if you want to induce me into a GM vs Japan, Inc./Ford/Chrysler fight, we'll be standing on the same side, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

My point was with better decisions made in the past, the press today would be much more positive and FAIR.

Plus, you would be making a commission of $500/car (or more) like the Toyohonda salesman who is able to act like an ignorant arse VS. the mini-deals you are scraping and begging for now while providing excellent customer service that I believe, based on your previous posts, you do. You should be agreeing with me on this stuff!!!

To hyperv6: Great post, man!

[haypops]

"In July 1 Toyota (including Lexus and Scion) outsold 2 Ford and outsold 3 Chrysler and closed in further on 4 General Motors. Here are the numbers:"

1 Toyota  146,266

2 Ford      90,483

3 DaimlerChrysler  55,660

4 General Motors  176,623

180297[/snapback]

Thanks evok! I guess old and ill tempered it is.

[Robert Hall]

And from 1993 on, GM made ABS standard on every single vehicle, something that nobody else bothered to do.  You can pick a point that matters to YOU and chip away at GM, or at any manufacturer, for that matter.

180253[/snapback]

Hmmm...aren't their GMs today that don't have ABS standard?

[Robert Hall]

Thanks evok!  I guess old and ill tempered it is. 

180312[/snapback]

Interesting, if you do the maths, not only did Toyota outsell Ford and Chrysler individually, but it outsold them put together..

[Chicagoland]

The 'Analysts' are more to blame. Most of them are 'quote hos' that want to get in a story. Most often they say 'kill a brand', 'make Camry clones', and 'close more plants'

[evok]

Thanks evok!  I guess old and ill tempered it is. 

180312[/snapback]

When I read the article this morning the data presentation struck me as odd also. It was not until after I saw you question it that I went back and looked more closely.

[evok]

The 'Analysts' are more to blame. Most of them are 'quote hos' that want to get in a story. Most often they say 'kill a brand', 'make Camry clones', and 'close more plants'

180328[/snapback]

ah - OK - yea - that is it!

[CARBIZ]

Maltar, in 2003 GM decided that if you can't beat'em, join'em and pulled ABS out of most of the base cars and some of the trucks, althought it put them back in the trucks pretty fast. I remember thinking - OUCH, there's going to be a backlash and, guess what - nobody cared? ABS just stopped being a selling feature and nobody cared.

And I did look it up: the 1981 GM full sized cars became available with an "automatic overdrive" the same year that Mercury introduced their 4 spd automatic.

GM has marched at the forefront of technology, but apparently not enough to please some critics. Ah, well.

[Hudson]

Maltar, in 2003 GM decided that if you can't beat'em, join'em and pulled ABS out of most of the base cars and some of the trucks, althought it put them back in the trucks pretty fast.  I remember thinking - OUCH, there's going to be a backlash and, guess what - nobody cared?  ABS just stopped being a selling feature and nobody cared.

  And I did look it up: the 1981 GM full sized cars became available with an "automatic overdrive" the same year that Mercury introduced their 4 spd automatic.

  GM has marched at the forefront of technology, but apparently not enough to please some critics.  Ah, well.

Yes, Ford and GM launched 4-speed automatics about the same time (I seem to recall Ford and Mercury getting them in the 1979 models, but you've looked it up...I'm deferring to you).

But when did the Cavalier get a 4-speed? How about the Corolla? And how many DTS competitors still have a 4-speed automatic today? That's more to the point.

[Hudson]

The 'Analysts' are more to blame. Most of them are 'quote hos' that want to get in a story. Most often they say 'kill a brand', 'make Camry clones', and 'close more plants'

And if closing redundant plants or brands...or making mass-market cars isn't the answer, what is?

[CARBIZ]

As I stated earlier, part of the problem is that GM was ignoring Honda/Toyota in their rear view mirror until about 3 -5 years ago. They couldn't see beyond the old Ford/Chevy/Plymouth rivalry. To that end, because there was never a 4 spd auto in the Neon, Chevrolet was slow to adopt one, although it was available in the new body style of 1995 but not standard until 1999 or 2000. I remember it was a $200 upgrade on the 1998/99 model, one that a lot of dealers ignored.

Being as this subject won't seem to go away, is there anybody on board here who can explain, from an engineering point of view perhaps, what exactly are the costs/risks involved with adding a 5th or 6th gear to an automatic? My concern is that given the extra levels of complexity, weight, etc., would the law of diminishing return not eventually kick in? I mean, it has to end somewhere, right? Or why shouldn't we just skip right to CVT, which has been tried, but I suspect without a great degree of success.

[Hudson]

...because there was never a 4 spd auto in the Neon...

They actually did add them in the second generation.

Being as this subject won't seem to go away, is there anybody on board here who can explain, from an engineering point of view perhaps, what exactly are the costs/risks involved with adding a 5th or 6th gear to an automatic?  My concern is that given the extra levels of complexity, weight, etc., would the law of diminishing return not eventually kick in?  I mean, it has to end somewhere, right?  Or why shouldn't we just skip right to CVT, which has been tried, but I suspect without a great degree of success.

I don't have all of the specifics, but...

Most 4-speed automatics are basically 3-speed automatics with a fourth gear added. Getting to a fifth gear, to my understanding, takes a whole redesign of the transmission. There's either not enough space in the package or the complexity is such that it is not easy to convert a 4-speed to a 5-speed.

As for CVTs, once they have been perfected for wear (especially when it comes to high torque engines), they will be a better answer than a traditional stepped transmission. The CVTs that I've driven have been great, especially the 220hp Audi A4 and the 240hp Nissan Murano. They're getting there, but a CVT is still an expensive proposition.

[The O.C.]

Totally agree on both counts, Reg. Like usual, your comments are always a good read.

Here's my take:

GM has gone out of its way to NOT learn from previous mistakes.  Anyone remember the mid-80s thru the mid 90s when GM was WAY behind on using 4-speed trannies? I mean, seriously, how could they POSSIBLY let the EXACT SAME THING happpen again? That kind of BULL&^%* is REALLY frustrating to those of us who love GM, AND, I bet, even to auto writers.

Let's not get into the whole "ABS prevents accidents, so our cars don't need airbags" BS. Do you guys remember that crap??? I mean, you just have to laugh.

They just make it so hard to be loyal. But we still are.

If I were an auto writer, I would be ripping those idiots a new hole every day.

And, just like every single other type of "journalist" ("evangelicals" who seek to make changes in the world rather than just report the facts), auto writers are very egotisitical. 

So (one theory of mine), if anyone remembers, GM really started universally taking it in the butt in write-ups about 5-6 years ago. Look at the improvements made since then....Stunning, I think. So, these writers just might think they have something to do with GMs impending but shaky turnaround, and aren't letting up. I know I wouldn't.

And people just have to know that whether reading the auto section or the front page (ahem..NY Times), that NOTHING is written in the press without an agenda.

180211[/snapback]

I remember the redesigned N-body cars being introduced with NO airbags and 3-speed automatic transmissions.....

[97regalGS]

I remember the redesigned N-body cars being introduced with NO airbags and 3-speed automatic transmissions.....

180695[/snapback]

can't remember my alphabet soup. what cars were 'N'?

[Hudson]

can't remember my alphabet soup.  what cars were 'N'?

Originally, Pontiac Grand Am, Oldsmobile Calais, and Buick Somerset Regal/Somerset/Skylark. The redesigned ones (1992) were the Grand Am, Oldsmobile Achieva, and Buick Skylark.

[balthazar]

GM had 4-speed automatics in the '50s & '60s. Guess they don't count since the competition -for the most part- didn't have any (beyond the 8 brands or so that bought their autos from GM, of course). Just setting the record straight.

[Hudson]

GM had 4-speed automatics in the '50s & '60s. Guess they don't count since the competition -for the most part- didn't have any (beyond the 8 brands or so that bought their autos from GM, of course). Just setting the record straight.

True. I don't know what makes that transmission so different than modern 4-speeds other than the overdrive gear in a modern 4-speed, which I would have figured they could have done as well.

[capriceman]

what is so bad about 4 speeds? some one please tell me the reasons? Since basicly all my Auto cars have had them. Every 5-6 speed auto i drove seem to jumpy to shift gears you tap the gas since the speed limit goes up 5 mph and the thing dramaticly shifts like i floored it. Whats with that?

No one can denie that the GM 4speed's are the best in the world. Trust me I have never seen a transmission seen that much abuse i give stand up to what i do.

As for Relieabilty and track record well since my 90 Caprice is still on the road with just basic stuff like spark plugs air fiters oil and brakes. It still is running good. unlike my friends 98 Camry thats had 4 computers so far.

As for ABS isnt need as a standard option since it drops the base price of the car down. Personaly Air bags or ABS has never saved me from anything yet. the only thing it did do is do that ABS $h! in a corner and did a breif lock and spin me out of control (on a dry warm day)

But Where GM has done bad is not offering sticks in base cars like Impala. It even would drop the price. and INTERIORS!!!!!! but other than that I can tell you i see more old Cavilers luminas Caprices and other varius cars from the 80-90's GM cars still on the road. while i dont see many old toyotas and hondas and nissians. there out there but there rare. For example If some one says Yeah i got a 87 Century. you blow through your head oh just a beater. But if someone says i got a 87 civic or whatever. you think those are even on the road still, Its probably a garge queen??

But Whatever The hardest thing to achieve in bussiness is Consumers and consumer satisfactory. And GM is doing ok there. since Smart consumers like us on this fourm and even Toyoguy know why we buy what we do. We dont rely on Auto writers or magizines to tell us what to buy.

[Hudson]

But Where GM has done bad is not offering sticks in base cars like Impala. It even would drop the price. and INTERIORS!!!!!! but other than that I can tell you i see more old Cavilers luminas Caprices and other varius cars from the 80-90's GM cars still on the road. while i dont see many old toyotas and hondas and nissians. there out there but there rare. For example If some one says Yeah i got a 87 Century. you blow through your head oh just a beater. But if someone says i got a 87 civic or whatever. you think those are even on the road still, Its probably a garge queen??

I'm not going to argue about your opinions of 4-speed autos, 5-speed autos, the need for ABS, or your driving habits. But how would a manual Impala lower the price? They'd have to certify the powertrain with a stick shift and they would sell a handful...I'm guessing less than 1,000. They would have to spread the cost of certifying the stick over 1,000 units (unless you want them to raise the price of the automatic Impala as well), which would bring the price in line with or above that of the automatic, further reducing the demand for the car. And I can't imagine that Chevrolet is losing all that many sales of Impalas because potential buyers demand a stick. So sales wouldn't increase...cost would increase...other than you getting a stick-shift Impala, what's the benefit here?

[LTB51]

Whoa guys!

Flint wasn't arguing that GM took a long time one million years ago to implement the 4SPD.

He is arguing that it is pathetic that GM still offers it on their luxury cars (not to mention lower models as well) even though so many companies offer it on much less expensive vehicles. Take, for example, the Honda Fit, which is positioned below even the civic.

Edited August 16, 2006 by LTB51

[RCD]

Not to disagree with everything Flint said but I do believe that there is indeed a perception problem.

Here is some evidence that it at least exists:

http://www.friendsofbuick.com/about.html

Scroll to the question "What is the Perception Gap?"

Long but worth the read.

[GEESIXER]

not to change the subject but they did find a '73 oldsmobile that had an air bag.

and they had shoulder belts back in the 60's but it cost an extra $15 to do it, so no one did.

[regfootball]

Not to disagree with everything Flint said but I do believe that there is indeed a perception problem.

Here is some evidence that it at least exists:

http://www.friendsofbuick.com/about.html

Scroll to the question "What is the Perception Gap?"

Long but worth the read.

181432[/snapback]

does buickman make the rounds on that site?

[The O.C.]

does buickman make the rounds on that site?

181504[/snapback]

The "perception gap" article in "Friends of Buick" was interesting.

I do agree that there IS a perception gap with most domestic automobiles.....but on the other hand, vehicles like the LaCrosse, when you really get down to it, are inferior to the competition in many ways.

The article makes a good point comparing the W-body architecture to the Camry's comparatively-ancient platform.

However, with the newest Camry, Toyota doesn't give us an exterior design with exaggerated front and rear overhangs.

Also, Camry doesn't penalize rear seat riders with a cramped area the way the W-body does. In fact, what luggage space is lost as a result ends up providing a much more comfortable back seat for rear seat riders.

Finally, Toyota gives us a Camry with two modern, DOHC powertrains with 5- and 6-speed automatics.....and a V6 with rip-snorting power.

SO....yes there is a perception gap. But many times it can be well-deserved.

[CARBIZ]

Well, I'd still stack the Impala against the Camry any day. A lot of a person's bias toward one or the other will largely depend on what he/she grew up with. I have never liked Japanese design and don't like the turn that Toyota has taken - I still give the nod to Nissan and Honda for the look of their cars.

I am 6'2" and have no problems in the back of the Impala. My only gripe there is that my huge size 12 feet do tend to get caught under the skirt of the front seats when I try to get out!

I don't think the Camry is a bad design or execution; I just don't like it. Also, for the $2k+ price difference in this market, I'd rather drive the Impala. Heritage matters to me and I prefer the somewhat more "floaty" ride of the LS/LT over the base Camry. The quality/reliablity issue is also tied, IMO. From the lack of complaints the Impala has garnered over the years< I'd say GM has that one licked.

I'd say GM has turned the corner. Since Lutz has taken over, I think we can all agree that GM has turned the tide with quality (already in progress when he took over) and getting better products out.

I'd say the last real challenge is to get the critics on board, and that will take time because they are a jaded lot, for sure.

[RCD]

does buickman make the rounds on that site?

181504[/snapback]

From what I have seen of what he writes, I doubt it. That site is quite supportive of current management.

[Mr.Krinkle]

people who dont care dont know. its sad when you ask some basic questions like how many miles do you get? or when was the last time you changed your spark plugs.

reality is perception sometimes.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[The O.C.]

Well, I'd still stack the Impala against the Camry any day.  A lot of a person's bias toward one or the other will largely depend on what he/she grew up with.  I have never liked Japanese design and don't like the turn that Toyota has taken - I still give the nod to Nissan and Honda for the look of their cars.

  I am 6'2" and have no problems in the back of the Impala.  My only gripe there is that my huge size 12 feet do tend to get caught under the skirt of the front seats when I try to get out!

  I don't think the Camry is a bad design or execution; I just don't like it.  Also, for the $2k+ price difference in this market, I'd rather drive the Impala.  Heritage matters to me and I prefer the somewhat more "floaty" ride of the LS/LT over the base Camry.  The quality/reliablity issue is also tied, IMO.  From the lack of complaints the Impala has garnered over the years< I'd say GM has that one licked.

  I'd say GM has turned the corner.  Since Lutz has taken over, I think we can all agree that GM has turned the tide with quality (already in progress when he took over) and getting better products out.

  I'd say the last real challenge is to get the critics on board, and that will take time because they are a jaded lot, for sure.

181666[/snapback]

I ACTUALLY understand your point in this and can respect that.

I'm never saying you or someone else should buy a Camry over an Impala.....I'm just offering my critical points about the car....

NOW.....what IF.....what IF GM gave you that Impala that didn't have the negatives most commonly associated with the older W-body platform?

What IF the back seat room was efficient enought that you don't snag your feet getting out? (I snag my 9 1/2 inch foot just as easily)

What IF the Impala wasn't saddled by excessive front and rear overhangs and a front-weight bias that makes the car feel unresponsive in curves? You can still have your "slightly-floaty" Impala ride with a bit more precision in the steering and handling....

What IF the Impala had a modern, DOHC V6 powerplant that put out 260-270+ hp with decent low-end torque....and a reputation for reliability like the older pushrod V6s have?

What IF the Impala had a modern 5- or 6-speed automatic that shifts as smoothly as the 5-speed in the CTS for example? And hence shifted as smooth as GM's old 4-speeds?

Would THAT be an Impala that 1) YOU would buy......but ALSO 2) an import consumer looking at a Camry might actually buy AS WELL...?

THAT, my friend.....IS the ticket.

[enzl]

I'll preface this by saying that I normally don't like Flint, but I don't think he's that far off....the Tigers are an excellent analogy and metaphor, both for what ails Detroit and how 'fixing' things isn't too difficult, given that fans will come back...perhaps they're looking to.

Blaming the messenger is a cop-out. GM can produce world class product. They've proven it...its a matter of getting their 'batting average' up....(perhaps 'slugging %' is more apt...as a few more home runs are certainly needed.)

[97regalGS]

I ACTUALLY understand your point in this and can respect that.

I'm never saying you or someone else should buy a Camry over an Impala.....I'm just offering my critical points about the car....

NOW.....what IF.....what IF GM gave you that Impala that didn't have the negatives most commonly associated with the older W-body platform?

What IF the back seat room was efficient enought that you don't snag your feet getting out?  (I snag my 9 1/2 inch foot just as easily)

What IF the Impala wasn't saddled by excessive front and rear overhangs and a front-weight bias that makes the car feel unresponsive in curves?  You can still have your "slightly-floaty" Impala ride with a bit more precision in the steering and handling....

What IF the Impala had a modern, DOHC V6 powerplant that put out 260-270+ hp with decent low-end torque....and a reputation for reliability like the older pushrod V6s have?

What IF the Impala had a modern 5- or 6-speed automatic that shifts as smoothly as the 5-speed in the CTS for example?  And hence shifted as smooth as GM's old 4-speeds?

Would THAT be an Impala that 1) YOU would buy......but ALSO 2) an import consumer looking at a Camry might actually buy AS WELL...?

THAT, my friend.....IS the ticket.

181831[/snapback]

Bingo!

Financials aside, a lot, not all, of GM problems can be solved with product.

[CARBIZ]

But where would all this eventually end? Let's suppose for a moment that the Impala is a fine vehicle the way it is. Let's suppose for a moment that many people even LIKE the overhangs and find the car pleasing to look at. Let's suppose the Impala gets pretty decent gas mileage in its present form (over 740km on one tank of gas in a recent run from Quebec!). Let's suppose it has the most reliable 4 spd transmission on the market. Let's suppose that 80% of the market doesn't know how many gears their vehicle has other than to put it in "D." Let's suppose it is AS reliable as the Camry. Let's suppose that it is $2,500 cheaper than the cheapest Camry and about $4,500 cheaper than a comparably equipped (read: V-6) Camry.

Just because YOU would pay $4,500 to run with the BETTER (?) DOHC power plant and an extra gear doesn't mean that MOST people would or could.

However, under that category of Tyranny of the Enthusiasts, the usual suspects will continue to hammer GM for these "deficiencies" until GM heels and provides all of these things, thus bringing the car up another $3-5,000 and pricing more people into the Kia/Hyundai market.

According to the rabbling media, we should all be driving Porsches or BMWs - anything else is a compromise. Well, most people can't AFFORD a BMW, so they lease an Impala. But just enough people believe this crap about the superiority of Japanese vehicles and the "deficiencies" as noted above to keep Japan Inc's factories rolling and North American jobs flying out the window.

[cardood]

And how many DTS competitors still have a 4-speed automatic today? That's more to the point.

180555[/snapback]

4-Speed auto in your flagship vehicle? Truly pathetic. Lexus will serve their flagship LS460 with an 8-speed auto. Wake up, slumbering giant.

c|d