Buick's $3 B investment

[wildcat]

There are many threads on C&G addressing bits and pieces of Buick's future line-up. Based on available facts plus some speculation, I believe that Buick has and will receive the bulk of the $3 billion promised for their revitalization. Due to higher priorities over the last few years, the plans and cadence of Buick's new vehicles had to be delayed or changed. Again,based on available facts plus some speculation, here is what I foresee as their present intentions, to make Buick "elegant, graceful and incredibly sophisticated":

GMT*** = Lambda crossover sport-utility = 2008 Buick Enclave

[ production begins late 2006 ]

GMX*** = W body with upgraded powerplant / revised front end = 2008 Buick LaCrosse Super [ production begins during this period ]

GMX*** = Global RWD (based on Holden LWB VE) = 2009 Buick Statesman convertible [ production begins early 2008 ]

NOTE: The above Buick Statesman will NOT replace the Lucerne. It will be intended as Buick's "halo car," achieving a low sales volume. It MAY carry the name "Riviera," a word mark first used by GM in 1963, registered by them in 1989, and still "live." (The name "Invicta" will NOT be used, as its trademark filing was abandoned March 21, 2006. Similarly, GM's "Roadmaster" word mark, first used in 1936 and registered March 5, 1991, was canceled on March 17, 2002, so it will NOT be used either.)

GMX*** = LWB Epsilon II = 2010 Buick LaCrosse [ production begins winter 2009 ]

GMT*** = Theta crossover = 2010 Buick crossover [ not yet approved and not yet named - will depend on market conditions ]

GMX*** = Global RWD (based on Holden) = 2011 Buick Lucerne [ production begins Oct. 2010 ]

Comments?

E D I T - In respect of the confidentiality of certain GM information, I have removed GMX and GMT code numbers, even though these occasionally come up in these and other forums, and are available on at least one personal website.

Edited August 5, 2006 by wildcat

[ehaase]

I don't think either the Theta or the convertible will happen, even though the convertible would be very appealing.

[wildcat]

Thank you for responding.

The GM "future product plans" report is forthcoming from Automotive News this month, right? If there were plans to use the Holden Statesman as a Buick, will it be reflected in the Automotive News year-by-year chart, or is it too late of a development? If there aren't plans as I've described above for a Buick "halo," why did Lutz mention a Buick Statesman? Why was there a report that GM board members were recently given the opportunity to drive some of the Holden cars, eyeing potential use in NA?

For further discussion, please view CamaroZ28.com under their "Automotive News / Future Vehicle Discussion" thread titled "Best quote I've seen re: Holden's role in US RWD car development." It was posted by guionM.

[ehaase]

Automotive News will outline GM's product plans over the next few weeks just as it did for Ford. I will believe that Buick will import the Statesman if Evok, thegriffon, CD/BP, or Automotive News say so. I don't expect a RWD Buick until the 2011 or 2012 Lucerne.

As far as guionM goes, see Evok's post at http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...55entry175955

[wildcat]

I know that you keep a high standard for information, and I wouldn't doubt what any of the sources you mentioned would state. I appreciate the trouble you went to, to identify the post from Evok. But I thought guionM, or, as I think he's been called, "Guy," was knowledgeable, too.

Besides the Statesman, weren't there enough new Commodores recently introduced (VE SS V, VE Calais V, VE Commodore, WM Caprice) that GM might fairly quickly bring one over for a Buick "halo" car?

[ehaase]

I don't think that any of the Holdens are stylish enough to succeed over here as a Buick.

[wildcat]

No, I'd hope not as-is, but with a couple dashes of Buick styling. (I wonder what the canceled Invicta would have looked like? I guess the Enclave is Buick's template for the foreseeable future.)

[balthazar]

I don't think that any of the Holdens are stylish enough to succeed over here as a Buick.

x 1,000.

[buickguy]

2009 Buick Statesman convertible: is this approved for production?

[evok]

GMX-283 Was Buick's version of the just released Holden Statesman. The vehicle was to be Buick's flagship that was to fill the void left when the Park Ave was cancelled. The Holden build 283 was not to be a high volume vehicle and sell in limited numbers. The 283 was cancelled almost 2 years ago.

There is a NA zeta Buick planned that coincides with the replacement of the Lucerne. The code is out there.

Edited August 7, 2006 by evok

[GMman]

There is a NA zeta Buick planned that coincides with the replacement of the Lucerne.  The code is out there.

How reliable is the information off of Wikipedia? It lists the 2010 Lucerne, 2009 Velite, and the 2009 Electra as vehicles that are DEFINATELY going to use the zeta platform.. What's up?

[thegriffon]

How reliable is the information off of Wikipedia?  It lists the 2010 Lucerne, 2009 Velite, and the 2009 Electra as vehicles that are DEFINATELY going to use the zeta platform..  What's up?

177175[/snapback]

It depends on who wrote it, which could be anyone, even you, and how much do you know about GM's future plans? Wikipedia is trying to put more rigour into the accuracy of entries, but this is not a subject which can be easily checked.

[evok]

It depends on who wrote it, which could be anyone, even you, and how much do you know about GM's future plans? Wikipedia is trying to put more rigour into the accuracy of entries, but this is not a subject which can be easily checked.

177233[/snapback]

Yea - but you know they are wrong.

[GMman]

It depends on who wrote it, which could be anyone, even you, and how much do you know about GM's future plans? Wikipedia is trying to put more rigour into the accuracy of entries, but this is not a subject which can be easily checked.

177233[/snapback]

Huh? Okay, I think what you're saying is it's probably not a dependable source of information. If I knew about GM future plans I wouldn't be reading things on the internet in an attempt to find out about GM's future plans. I thought it was curious that Wikipedia stated that those were the vehicles that were DEFINATELY going to use the zeta platform.....as if....there wasn't a doubt at all.... Now the people posting here, such as evok, seem to be in the "know" from what his last post stated. So.... what's up?

[Chicagoland]

Wikipedia? LOL As reliable as a bathroom wall.

See "The Onion" parody site, about the Wikipedia's "25th of July Celebration of US History".

[Flybrian]

In light of the financial woes we're living through as we speak, anyone think that maybe Buick didn't get its $3 billion?

[VenSeattle]

In light of the financial woes we're living through as we speak, anyone think that maybe Buick didn't get its $3 billion?

178475[/snapback]

I think Zeta exists for multiple divisions at the expense of Buick.

Sure, Buick may get a vehicle (as in one vehicle) out of Zeta, but the $3 Billion spent on only Buick would have revived Buick's entire portfolio. No amount of investment was announced for Pontiac and it's possibly getting two! A $3 Billion price tag for three vehicle (EPSII LaCrosse, Zeta Lucerne, and Lambda Enclave) that share global platforms is ridiculous to believe. If Buick had received the full amount, Buick wouldn't be left with a small 3-vehicle line-up... Oh Well... maybe a Buick coupe/convertible will become possible later on...

But anyways, that's what I think happened to Buick's $3 Billion investment.

[97regalGS]

Cadillac 'received' $4B and got a lot to show for it (sigma - CTS, STS, SRX, a new plant to build them in, XLR, V-Series, new Escalade and Led Zeppelin)

Buick 'received' $3B and got (an old car with a new interior, new sheetmetal and new name and it will be the the third variant to offer up a V8 in it, another old car with a new interior, new sheetmetal and a new name also with a V8 offering -this time DOHC, an old truck with new sheetmetal(barely) new interior and a new name, with a V8 option, an old minivan with no new sheetmetal a bit of fake wood on the interior and a new name, no new factory and countless ad campaigns).

oh, and they spent the other $2.5B on keeping Tiger Woods.

[97regalGS]

Huh?  Okay, I think what you're saying is it's probably not a dependable source of information.  If I knew about GM future plans I wouldn't be reading things on the internet in an attempt to find out about GM's future plans.  I thought it was curious that Wikipedia stated that those were the vehicles that were DEFINATELY going to use the zeta platform.....as if....there wasn't a doubt at all....    Now the people posting here, such as evok, seem to be in the "know" from what his last post stated.  So.... what's up?

177254[/snapback]

here's some friendly advice.

you want to know what's going on in the industry and who knows facts and who knows $h!, then just stick around here for a while and read the threads in their entirety (stay out of the Lounge) . you'll eventually figure out that there a couple of people who know what's going on, there are several more that know bits and pieces and the rest just make stuff up, repeat old rumours or convince themselves that the misinformation they post is truth. the problem is everyone types like what they are saying is FACT. after a while you'll figure out who is credible and who isn't.

speaking of which I'm wondering if GM made a mistake in the Camaro press release because one of our 'fabled insiders' said SOP (start of production) was '07. Or maybe they just decided to shelf the program for a few months.

Edited August 11, 2006 by 97regalGS

[VenSeattle]

Cadillac 'received' $4B and got a lot to show for it (sigma - CTS, STS, SRX, a new plant to build them in, XLR, V-Series, new Escalade and Led Zeppelin)

Buick 'received' $3B and got (an old car with a new interior, new sheetmetal and new name and it will be the the third variant to offer up a V8 in it, another old car with a new interior, new sheetmetal and a new name also with a V8 offering -this time DOHC, an old truck with new sheetmetal(barely) new interior and a new name, with a V8 option, an old minivan with no new sheetmetal a bit of fake wood on the interior and a new name, no new factory and countless ad campaigns).

oh, and they spent the other $2.5B on keeping Tiger Woods.

178689[/snapback]

Rainier, Terraza, LaCrosse (Regal remodel), & Lucerne (LeSabre remodel) were not part of the $3 Billion investment.

[97regalGS]

Rainier, Terraza, LaCrosse (Regal remodel), & Lucerne (LeSabre remodel) were not part of the $3 Billion investment.

178751[/snapback]

ah. so they shelved the $3B investment for a few years. (that $3B investment quote was a while back, as in years ago.)

face it. there is no $3B investment in Buick. they might be spending $3B on product development, but it is clearly spread across the GM empire, unlike the $$$ Cadillac got.

or maybe that $$$ was spent on China!

[VenSeattle]

ah. so they shelved the $3B investment for a few years.  (that $3B investment quote was a while back, as in years ago.)

face it.  there is no $3B investment in Buick.  they might be spending $3B on product development, but it is clearly spread across the GM empire, unlike the $$$ Cadillac got.

or maybe that $$$ was spent on China!

178904[/snapback]

Supposedly, the $3 billion was to go towards developing the next generation of vehicles... Just like Cadillac's went towards all-new vehicles instead of fixing up the current line-up.

The EpsII LaCrosse better be amazing considering the suggested investment.

[evok]

Someone please go search the net a find the original $3B investment in Buick press release. It would help if we were all on the same page.

That way I may be able to shed some light on what the PR actually meant.

Edited August 12, 2006 by evok

[Flybrian]

Someone please go search the net a find the original $3B investment in Buick press release.  It would help if we were all on the same page.

That way I may be able to shed some light on what the PR actually meant.

179396[/snapback]

Buick Bucks - Brief Article

Ward's Auto World,  March 1, 2004

General Motors Corp. will spend slightly more than $3 billion during the next five years to overhaul the Buick lineup, company executives say.

The investment includes the Buick Terraza minivan, which debuted in January at the Detroit auto show, and the '05 LaCrosse midsize sedan unveiled in Chicago. However, the cash infusion does not include the Rainier midsize SUV, which went on sale in late 2003.

The replacement for the LeSabre fullsize sedan, to bow in early 2005 at either the Detroit or Chicago auto shows, also is part of the lineup overhaul, says Bob Lutz, chairman-GM North America.

After making a splash in Chicago with the LaCrosse, Buick's revival will make waves at the New York auto show in April, when the GM division will unveil a convertible concept called Velite, Ward's learns. Several GM insiders confirm the plans.

While Buick is profitable, GM is scrambling to reverse years of decreasing sales and market share by recasting its image, broadening its product lineup and expanding its appeal to younger consumers. "Today's Buick is something we want people to desire," Lutz says.

He says the Terraza was a very modest portion of the $3 billion investment, because it's basically a cosmetic makeover. "It's not a unique product for Buick," he says, adding the vehicles developed with the new investment are in the future. "We're talking all kinds of stuff. Some stuff that maybe Buick has never had before."

Interestingly...

GM plans to spend $3 billion in 3 years to expand in China

Automaker will double manufacturing capacity to rival Volkswagen

By ELAINE KURTENBACH Associated Press

Tuesday, June 8, 2004

Shanghai, China -- Signaling its confidence in the booming Chinese economy, General Motors Corp. said Monday it plans to spend $3 billion in China over the next three years in a challenge to rival Volkswagen for dominance of the world's fastest-growing auto market.

GM, the world's biggest automaker, said it will build plants to more than double its manufacturing capacity, introduce new models and set up an auto financing venture with its Chinese partner, Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp.

"Success in China is crucial to GM's global success," Phil Murtaugh, chairman and chief executive of General Motors China Group, said in a statement.

GM has invested more than $2 billion since 1998 in joint ventures that now make domestic brands and Buick sedans, Chevrolet Blazers, minivans and other models. It claims about an 8% share of China's vehicle market.

It joins other automakers pouring billions of dollars into new ventures as they try to keep up with demand from newly affluent Chinese consumers: Total vehicle sales soared 75% last year.

"The problem for foreign automakers is a lack of capacity. They're struggling to keep up with demand," said Yale Zheng, an auto industry analyst at CSM Asia Corp. "For GM, it's a good plan."

GM still trails Volkswagen, which entered the China market in 1984 and is the country's leading foreign brand, with a 38% market share. Shanghai's taxi fleet is almost entirely Volkswagen Santana sedans, though Buicks are making up a growing share of vehicles on the city's jam-packed streets.

Last year, VW announced plans to invest $7.4 billion more in the Chinese market.

Japan's Nissan has a $2 billion Chinese joint venture, and DaimlerChrysler signed a $1.2 billion deal last year with a Chinese partner.

Honda of Japan and France's Peugeot also have announced high- profile investments.

[VenSeattle]

The investment includes the Buick Terraza minivan, which debuted in January at the Detroit auto show, and the '05 LaCrosse midsize sedan unveiled in Chicago. However, the cash infusion does not include the Rainier midsize SUV, which went on sale in late 2003.

The replacement for the LeSabre fullsize sedan, to bow in early 2005 at either the Detroit or Chicago auto shows, also is part of the lineup overhaul, says Bob Lutz, chairman-GM North America.

Huh... I could have sworn earlier that I read what I stated. If this is true, Buick is in trouble.

[evok]

179400[/snapback]

Thanks - that says it all!

[wildcat]

Here's more GM press:

FOR RELEASE: 2004-09-10

Prices For New Buick Lacrosse And Terraza Bring Refinement Into The Premium End Of The Car And Mid-Van Markets

"DETROIT - Buick's renaissance is in full swing as two new premium products hit the market this fall that offer a high level of refinement and style at an affordable price. The all-new 2005 LaCrosse premium midsize sedan, featuring an all new vehicle, powerful new engine and notably improved ride and handling, is the first in a new lineup of Buick cars that will build on Buick's strengths as it moves into its second century . . . With GM's product development machinery running at speed, GM now has the opportunity to take Buick to higher ground. Both the LaCrosse and Terraza reflect the beginning of a 3.2-billion dollar investment over the next five years to not just make Buick relevant, but desired, and the envy of competitive premium brands that don't enjoy our reputation for quality . . ."

Who's responsible for squandering so much money and getting so little competitive product in return? People have pointed out all the Cadillac was able to do with, was it, $4 billion. How could it have cost so much to give Buick so little?

[wildcat]

Now wait just a cotton-pickin' minute!

The article that Flybrian resurrected from Automotive News makes it sound like Terraza, LaCrosse, Lucerne, and the Velite concept were part of the $3 billion. But then one of the quotes of Mr. Lutz in that very same article seems to refute it (emphasis added):

" . . . He says the Terraza was a very modest portion of the $3 billion investment, because it's basically a cosmetic makeover. 'It's not a unique product for Buick,' he says, adding the vehicles developed with the new investment are in the future. 'We're talking all kinds of stuff. Some stuff that maybe Buick has never had before.'"

If they are vehicles in the future, then they don't include Terraza, LaCrosse, or even Lucerne.

Would any of our insiders please help us sort this out?

[VenSeattle]

Thanks - that says it all!

179441[/snapback]

No it doesn't... please elaborate.

[Flybrian]

In addition to the LaCrosse and Terraza, "the future" in fall of 2004 could include...

Velite concept

Lucerne

LaCrosse Super

Enclave concept

Enclave production

And who knows how much of Lambda's development cost was taken from Buick's $3.2 billion? Who knows how much of it went to China, where they actually buy these cars, keeping in mind an entirely different LaCrosse was debuted there along with the "Buick" Royaum and other models, in this identical timeframe.

[evok]

In addition to the LaCrosse and Terraza, "the future" in fall of 2004 could include...

Velite concept

Lucerne

LaCrosse Super

Enclave concept

Enclave production

And who knows how much of Lambda's development cost was taken from Buick's $3.2 billion? Who knows how much of it went to China, where they actually buy these cars, keeping in mind an entirely different LaCrosse was debuted there along with the "Buick" Royaum and other models, in this identical timeframe.

179698[/snapback]

Well said. Adding to that, for NA, only the Buick version of the Statesman and Velite never received final approval since that announcement. Though at modest volume targets at app 35k/yr, it can be argued that the vehicles would not have had a significant impact on re-establishing Buick's relevance which may be better served with a zeta based Lucerne replacement and the Eps Lacrosse.

There have been no significant programs for Buick cancelled and if you figure app. $500 million/ program, the investment works out. But you must include the programs that were mentioned in the article and the next generation vehicles.

Edited August 13, 2006 by evok

[Chicagoland]

Didn't Bob Lutz admit that unforseen financial losses at GM cut into the original plan?

Edited August 15, 2006 by Chicagoland

[Guest buickman]

It's really quite simple, G Richard Wagoner is a liar. Remember his famous forecast of $10 per share earnings by mid decade, a few years later when the time arrived and he was questioned as to his prediction, he replied "It depends on how you define mid decade". The man is a fool.

Edited August 24, 2006 by buickman

[Chicagoland]

Look at GM's near 100 year history, many predictions and plans didn't come true due to reality.

Buick is not ever going to be the same size as Chevy, as some divisional loyalists want. [hence we got all the clone cars]. And it never should be.

And, anyone who thinks that business plans are set in stone better face reality. Plans can change overnight, and the "$3B plan" is most lilkely gone.