Lucerne Sales for June 2006

[Tailfin61]

Finally got to the July 10th edition of automotive news, which has the sales stats for June, and realized that Lucerne looks to have outsold the segment, depending how you define it. Too bad GM didn't hype that more.

Lucerne - 10,690

Charger - 9710

300 - 9140

Five Hundred - 9089

Avalon - 6680

Azera - 2778

Montego - 1880

[wildcat]

Wow! Way over the Avalon!

[boblutzfan]

Finally got to the July 10th edition of automotive news, which has the sales stats for June, and realized that Lucerne looks to have outsold the segment, depending how you define it.  Too bad GM didn't hype that more.

Lucerne - 10,690

Charger - 9710

300 - 9140

Five Hundred - 9089

Avalon - 6680

Azera - 2778

Montego - 1880

169431[/snapback]

Tell me again why Mercury exists any more? How can they justify the marketing of the Montego if they are only selling 1,880/month. Pathetic.

Way to go Buick. Just wait until the Enclave and Lacrosse Super come out. Buick might be back to selling nearly 30K a month.

[Drew Dowdell]

What are YTD sales on Lucerne? They do that every month and they'll be hitting 120k per year sales..... not bad considering that is PT Cruiser, HHR sales numbers.

poor montego, I thing the writing is on the wall for Mercury.

[trinacriabob]

Considering it's a LeSabre and a Park Avenue rolled into one, they should be selling about 15,000 a month. And they need a bigger margin over the Charger, which is butt ugly while the Lucerne is pleasing to the eye.

[Dsuupr]

I love the talk of the azura and avalon being so great, yet the Lucerne out sold both of them combined.

Even more amazing was that it outsold the Ford 500. A car which is cheaper and sold at a lower end dealer.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Dsuupr

[daves87rs]

Considering it's a LeSabre and a Park Avenue rolled into one, they should be selling about 15,000 a month.  And they need a bigger margin over the Charger, which is butt ugly while the Lucerne is pleasing to the eye.

169467[/snapback]

My thinking exactly...still, not too bad...

Looks like my dad's plant is going to have a little more down time...

[daves87rs]

I love the talk of the azura and avalon being so great, yet the Lucerne out sold both of them combined.

Even more amazing was that it outsold the Ford 500.  A car which is cheaper and sold at a lower end dealer.

169476[/snapback]

Love that pic, by the way...

[jbartley]

go LUCERNE!

[samuel]

Considering it's a LeSabre and a Park Avenue rolled into one, they should be selling about 15,000 a month.  And they need a bigger margin over the Charger, which is butt ugly while the Lucerne is pleasing to the eye.

169467[/snapback]

The Charger is a WAY better looking car then the "melted bar of soap" Lucerne!

[G. David Felt]

Considering it's a LeSabre and a Park Avenue rolled into one, they should be selling about 15,000 a month.  And they need a bigger margin over the Charger, which is butt ugly while the Lucerne is pleasing to the eye.

169467[/snapback]

I so disagree with you. The Lucerne while a nice car is just another boring conservative dullmobile. The Charge is hot, this is a love or hat car. Some thing GM has yet to realize. Perfect case in Point is the Escalade, no longer a distinct hot ride, but a clear rebadge of Tahoe and Yukon. Yukon, what the hell is up with that ugly Auto. Only SUV they got right was the Tahoe. Even the Avalanche they just did a dumb copy of Tahoe. No longer distinct vehicles that will sell but a blander tho much higher quality product line.

By all merits, I took my coworker who was a nissan only owner due to his father who worked and just retired from Nissan and we test drove all 3 SUV's. He needs a larger vehicle for family, camping and towing. We'll clearly the New Yukon Denali is the one to get. Not much differant than the Escalade. Only a few items missing but much cheaper for the Denali XL over the ESV here in Seattle.

Yet the design of the exteror is butt ugly.

The only Vehicles they have right in my book are the Caddilac CTS, STS, DTS and XLR along with the Corvette, Tahoe and New Camero. The Cobalt also is a must mention for a hot ride. Other wise currenlty the new vehicles are just not that inspiring. My dad just bought a Colorado and while nice it is far short of what it should be. Interior trim is a disapointment, Exterior fit and finish still needs work.

Born and raised american in Seattle will continue to support my american companies to keep the profits here but also a strong critic as I know GM can still get better.

Last Grip, when will they wake up and put that ugly onstar / satellite antenna in the middle of the roof rather than over the driver. This truly looks like an after thought, cheap ass job done by Best buy or circuit city. This should either be center in the front or center in the rear to clean up the exterior over all apperiance.

[nzr]

how many were fleet sales?

[Paolino]

This is great news! I have to admit, I definitely see a ton of Lucernes on the road now. In a variety of colors too. What seems most popular is Sagemist Metallic with a chrome grille (I feel on lighter colors, the grille should be blackened out), and black with and without chrome grilles (I prefer the chrome on this).

[rueben44]

The Lucerne with 18's and the V8 looks very sexy and sleek. It is a very nice car so I hope it gets a 6 speed in the near future. Great numbers I hope that most are not fleet.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Way to go Lucerne! Still a blandly-styled, un-Buick-looking car however, yet stately in a sense. How does Impala compare? I see no reason for Mercury to exist in its form-it needs Messenger styling or it needs to die.

[MPLIN]

  I so disagree with you.  The Lucerne while a nice car is just another boring conservative dullmobile.  The Charge is hot, this is a love or hat car.  Some thing GM has yet to realize.  Perfect case in Point is the Escalade, no longer a distinct hot ride, but a clear rebadge of Tahoe and Yukon.  Yukon, what the hell is up with that ugly Auto.  Only SUV they got right was the Tahoe.  Even the Avalanche they just did a dumb copy of Tahoe.  No longer distinct vehicles that will sell but a blander tho much higher quality product line.

By all merits, I took my coworker who was a nissan only owner due to his father who worked and just retired from Nissan and we test drove all 3 SUV's.  He needs a larger vehicle for family, camping and towing.  We'll clearly the New Yukon Denali is the one to get.  Not much differant than the Escalade.  Only a few items missing but much cheaper for the Denali XL over the ESV here in Seattle.

Yet the design of the exteror is butt ugly.

The only Vehicles they have right in my book are the Caddilac CTS, STS, DTS and XLR along with the Corvette, Tahoe and New Camero.  The Cobalt also is a must mention for a hot ride.  Other wise currenlty the new vehicles are just not that inspiring.  My dad just bought a Colorado and while nice it is far short of what it should be.  Interior trim is a disapointment, Exterior fit and finish still needs work.

Born and raised american in Seattle will continue to support my american companies to keep the profits here but also a strong critic as I know GM can still get better.

Last Grip, when will they wake up and put that ugly onstar / satellite antenna in the middle of the roof rather than over the driver.  This truly looks like an after thought, cheap ass job done by Best buy or circuit city.  This should either be center in the front or center in the rear to clean up the exterior over all apperiance. 

169495[/snapback]

I believe the antenna can't be centered because of the overhead console. The G6 has the antenna centered in the front because it doesn't have a large over head console. On the SUV's you don't want the antenna mounted on the back because it can get in the way of loading items onto the roofrack.

[buickguy]

It's time for Buick to add a Lucerne coupe/convertible

[gmcbob]

Good point on the question of many were sold to fleets.

I'd also like to know if anyone has sales by market information? I see a lot more newer Avalons here in Houston than I do Lucernes. I would say 5 to 1, and that's not an exageration at all. I see more VW Passats (which I always mistake for a Lucerne somehow) than I do Lucernes. So, either they're mostly going to fleets and/or they're mostly being sold in the only place where GM sells a lot of Buicks - the midwest.

Now that I think about it, in the parking lot where I work, I've actually seen a few 2007 ES330s and no Lucernes.

I just wonder, where are they?

[thegriffon]

The Charger is a WAY better looking car then the "melted bar of soap" Lucerne!

169492[/snapback]

Melted bar of soap? are you sure you're not thinking of the LaCrosse?

How you define the segment id important. most of these cars are actually in the same segment as the LaCrosse, not the Lucerne, by price as well as size. The rest are in the same segment as the LaCrosse by price (but bigger) or size (more expensive) alone. At a stretch there may be a little overlap with the Lucerne in price, but none are in the same segment by size. Those cars that are as big as the Lucerne are much, much more expensive.

[VenSeattle]

Good point on the question of many were sold to fleets. 

I'd also like to know if anyone has sales by market information?  I see a lot more newer Avalons here in Houston than I do Lucernes.  I would say 5 to 1, and that's not an exageration at all.  I see more VW Passats (which I always mistake for a Lucerne somehow) than I do Lucernes.  So, either they're mostly going to fleets and/or they're mostly being sold in the only place where GM sells a lot of Buicks - the midwest.

Now that I think about it, in the parking lot where I work, I've actually seen a few 2007 ES330s and no Lucernes. 

I just wonder, where are they?

169597[/snapback]

Well, the "new" Avalon has had a year more of sales than the Lucerne. I've seen several Lucernes on the road up here.

As for Fleets, I've yet to hear that the LaCrosse or Lucerne are being whored to fleets like the Century and LeSabre were. Everything out of GM indicates Buick's fleet sales have been heavily reduced while "retail sales" have increased.

[Cananopie]

Good point on the question of many were sold to fleets. 

I'd also like to know if anyone has sales by market information?  I see a lot more newer Avalons here in Houston than I do Lucernes.  I would say 5 to 1, and that's not an exageration at all.  I see more VW Passats (which I always mistake for a Lucerne somehow) than I do Lucernes.  So, either they're mostly going to fleets and/or they're mostly being sold in the only place where GM sells a lot of Buicks - the midwest.

Now that I think about it, in the parking lot where I work, I've actually seen a few 2007 ES330s and no Lucernes. 

I just wonder, where are they?

169597[/snapback]

You can't base the sales numbers necessarily on where you live alone. If you lived in Southern California you'd wonder how American car companies stay in business at all, while if you live where I do in Western New York, more people than not are still loyal to American car companies and they are seen quite often. Yesterday alone I saw 6 Lucerne's on the way home from work- 0 Avalons.

Just this spring my family went down to Myrtle Beach and the Lucerne's there outnumbered all other vehicles around, it was really amazing to see. So the midwest isn't necessarily the only place where the Lucerne's are being sold, they're popular in the East still all up and down the coast.

Oh- and the reason why you mistake it for the Passat is because Buick blatantly stole their rear-end.

[thegriffon]

Tell me again why Mercury exists any more?  How can they justify the marketing of the Montego if they are only selling 1,880/month.  Pathetic.

Way to go Buick.  Just wait until the Enclave and Lacrosse Super come out.  Buick might be back to selling nearly 30K a month.

169463[/snapback]

Slightly higher prices, extremely small investment in differentiation, which is pretty much how it's always been. Currently outsold by both Saturn and Pontiac, the intended competition. With a number of lines going away that will only get worse. Without importing every car line from either Europe or Australia hard to see how this can possibly change.

[Angry Dad]

Can I post it to stir the pot?

Avalon is a flop.

Ugly Camry soon to follow.

[buickguy]

Might be a regional thing. On Long Island you would think Saab was the best selling car in America there are so many of them!

[The O.C.]

You can't base the sales numbers necessarily on where you live alone. If you lived in Southern California you'd wonder how American car companies stay in business at all, while if you live where I do in Western New York, more people than not are still loyal to American car companies and they are seen quite often. Yesterday alone I saw 6 Lucerne's on the way home from work- 0 Avalons.

Just this spring my family went down to Myrtle Beach and the Lucerne's there outnumbered all other vehicles around, it was really amazing to see. So the midwest isn't necessarily the only place where the Lucerne's are being sold, they're popular in the East still all up and down the coast.

Oh- and the reason why you mistake it for the Passat is because Buick blatantly stole their rear-end.

169609[/snapback]

Just a thought.....did you look for rental-car bar-codes?

Myrtle Beach is a HUGE tourist area....with lots of rental cars....

I see a fair number of Lucernes here in SoCal....ALL with rental-car bar-codes.

[The O.C.]

Finally got to the July 10th edition of automotive news, which has the sales stats for June, and realized that Lucerne looks to have outsold the segment, depending how you define it.  Too bad GM didn't hype that more.

Lucerne - 10,690

Charger - 9710

300 - 9140

Five Hundred - 9089

Avalon - 6680

Azera - 2778

Montego - 1880

169431[/snapback]

Let me do some math.....JUST to counter the hypocrites......

Since there are some on C&G that LOVE to point out how COMBINED Silverado and Sierra numbers outsell F-150s.....

300/Charger - 18,850

500/Montego - 10,969

Lucerne - 10,690

For what it's worth....I'd take a Lucerne any day over a 500/Montego.....but not over a Charger/300. I would probably still go with the Avalon Touring....but I don't know about the Azera because I've never driven one.

[VenSeattle]

Let me do some math.....JUST to counter the hypocrites......

Since there are some on C&G that LOVE to point out how COMBINED Silverado and Sierra numbers outsell F-150s.....

300/Charger   -   18,850

500/Montego   -   10,969

Lucerne   -   10,690

For what it's worth....I'd take a Lucerne any day over a 500/Montego.....but not over a Charger/300.  I would probably still go with the Avalon Touring....but I don't know about the Azera because I've never driven one.

169638[/snapback]

You left the Lucerne's sister car DTS off. I know it's in a different demographic, but it still helps make the business case for Lucerne due to volume. They are the only products made at Hamtramck.

[Flybrian]

500/Montego  -  10,969

Lucerne  -  10,690

What about the Camryesque theory that you can cover the same sales figure with a single car and make more money from it? That surely can come into play here.

but I don't know about the Azera because I've never driven one.

169638[/snapback]

Azera is a letdown from something I know you're big on, materials and fit n' finish. Things may look pretty in pictures, but get into a midlevel one...ugh.

Also, purely observational, but I've seen about equal numbers of fleeted Lucernes as I have Avalons around here. 500s, fuggedaboutit, Fleet City. As far as the LX twins, dub them Fleetmasters. A handful of Azera rentals, too.

[gmcbob]

I have family in Buffalo and when I'm there (I haven't been there in a while) it completely BLOWS my mind at how many American cars I see when I pull up to a traffic light there. In Houston - it's nearly the opposite (although GMT800s and Chevy and Ford trucks and SUVs and new GMT900s are everywhere, probably the only American products I see tons of here in Houston). In Houston, Toyota and Honda rule the roost as far as your typical 4 door sedan or coupe, it's actually kind of annoying.

Lately, I have been seeing more of the new Impalas and Buick and Pontiac products, but many of those have the bar codes on them, probably better than half actually. Lots of Impalas, most of them with bar codes on the window or someone who obviously looks like a salesperson (fleet company car). I would say the most popular GM *car* (not SUV) that I see in this market that doesn't have a bar code on the window might be a toss up between the G6 and perhaps the Malibu or HHR. Now that I think about it, I see a lot of HHRs on the road here. No bar codes either. But overall, I'd say the market is definitely skewed in favor of the imports here in the Houston area, and out on the West Coast.

GM - you have a lot of work to do in areas that aren't close to your home or in areas where there aren't very many ties to the auto industry.

Edited July 21, 2006 by gmcbob

[regfootball]

Lucerne is doing very well here. Still a lot of those are to 70+ geysers who finally got tired of owning 4 of the last body style of LeSabres. Still a legit sale though.

Over time the Lucerne should continue to outsell those other cars, except for maybe the 500/mtgo. Once ford pulls its head out of its arse and gets the 3.5 in there and some styling tweaks, (and I'd like a new dash too), sales will explode. I predict a 50% gain in sales.

The charger is heinous looking. 300 sales are already going down. In about a year when the 'smoky burnout and beer bunch' has all got their Chargers to go with their jacked up Ram in the garage (yes, with the Calvin peeing sticker) we'll see those sales take a dive too.

azera-yuck. you must like cool whip and miracle whip then too. live a little, try real whipped cream and mayo.

Edited July 21, 2006 by regfootball

[gmcbob]

I actually like the Lucerne, but if I was going to spend $35k on a nice car, I"d probably buy a 300C - something about the rear drive and 340 hp. that just makes me want it more.

I'll consider Buick when they bring over the Holden VE with Buick styling.

[VenSeattle]

Considering it's a LeSabre and a Park Avenue rolled into one, they should be selling about 15,000 a month. 

169467[/snapback]

Not when you eliminate LeSabre's heavy fleet sales. The Lucerne is searching for retail sales, and is not interested in matching the LeSabre's gross sales total. Same goes for the LaCrosse.

[jbartley]

i see lucernes EVERYWERE!

And i know they aren't rentals, b/c they are mostly V8 and/or people i know, and plain and simply aren't rentals.

I don't think the Charger and Lucerne are necc. competing for the same demograpic. There maybe overlap.

Even the lucerne and 300 aren't going directly head to head. The 300 interior is at about the same level as the Impala. But with more hard plastic and RWD.

[Drew Dowdell]

OC, if you're going to do it that way, can we stack Impala + GP + Lacross up in sales numbers?

How about Cobalt + G5 + HHR v. Corolla/Matrix

Then of course there is Equinox, Vue, Torrent v. Rav4

Why aren't you including the DTS in your Lucerne count?

[4gm]

I think Lucerne sales would get a noticable bump if the front end was redone the right way. It's too flat and one dimensional. The rest of the car is kind of generic but is still has a nice look to it. That bland looking front end is a turnoff for me every time I see it.

[Angry Dad]

I like that lame excuse, ALL Buicks are rentals.

Why not try "the often recalled and with a shoddy reputation Avalon" is getting ignored in the market that Toyota blathered it would take over from Buick.

Yeah, stir the pot. numbers aren't lying.

[gmcbob]

It's funny to read posts about seeing Lucernes everywhere, because when I do see a Lucerne, I feel like I'm getting some kind of rare treat here in Houston. I'll probably start noticing them more because of this post now. hehehe.

It's good to see Buick doing well in other markets though. I like Buick, my Dad worked as a District Manager for Buick Motor Division for a long time back in the 70s and early 80s, so I remember him bringing home a different Electra or Park Avenue (or an occasional Riv) every other day - a 1980 mint green Electra comes to mind as one of my favorites. Apparently GM has done away with field reps, so my Dad has claimed that positions similar to his don't really exist in the same way they did then, forming a big disconnect between GM and the dealer network. Maybe you guys can confirm or deny this claim.???

Personally, I think Buick desperately needs a rear drive sedan on the STS or new Zeta chassis to really round out the lineup properly. I think a vehicle called "Electra" or something similar needs to come out soon, and at least be on par with the 300C in terms of power, refinement and overall handling prowess - and most importantly, price. If Buick had a car that was something of a cross between a 300C, and say, an Infiniti M45, at a mid to high $30s sticker with the current Lucerne, Acadia waterfall grille type styling and smooth sleek lines that the current Buicks are starting to have, it would be a hit. Coupe and convertible versions too of course.

[Regalguy01]

Here near Jackson, Ms, I see plenty of Lucernes and I can honestly say 80% appear to be private owners. Many times I can see that annoying dealer decal tacked on the decklid or in the front license plate holder.

As for the Charger/300 I think chrysler will continue to do well. Although I am not a fan of either in regular stock trim, they both command an attractive presence when equipped with say, the upscale chrysler grill and chrome wheels. But most folks that buy the lucerne will appreciate it for far different reasons than those that buy the Charger/300. They will be people from a more mature background no doubt and more prone to cross shop with the Avalon or ES350.

*Switching gears Now*

I have something else that I think is funny. There have been a good many of journalists in media print and people on this site that have said the 'portholes' are either 'cheesy' or another reminder of buick's 'grey-haired' customer base. But I can't tell you how many non-buicks I have seen that people have adorned with portholes now that Lucerne has come to market. From old-school cutlass supremes and honda civics, driven by those young kids that like those loud azz mufflers, to current year luxury vehicles like the DTS and Chrysler's 300.(didn't look bad on some either) In my opinion, this serves as a slap in the face of naysayers. Obviously many admire the 'ventiports' or portholes that Buick was clever enough to conjure up from its past.

Last thing, Hyundai(another pimple on the ASS of GM that journalists chalked up to GM's doom) can you say..........................

Azera = AZERO. No presence, no prestige, no friggin premium sedan!

[trinacriabob]

The Charger is a WAY better looking car then the "melted bar of soap" Lucerne!

169492[/snapback]

You evidently like bombastic styling. All the crap that is coming out of Chrysler (the 300, the Charger, their trucks) are all pumped up on steroids and will look stupid in just a matter of years...just like the PT Cruiser, and even GM's HHR, look stupid and will look more stupid. The Lucerne is a leap forward for Buick (especially from the last LeSabre) and is beautifully detailed in its exterior (I don't like a few things about the interior). It will look contemporary and tasteful for quite a while.

In fact, isn't it kind of a riot how you can see the big Dodge trucks (some of them with a construction box in the back) and look at the driver and say "Yep." Seems like a certain type of person gravitates to those.

Go Lucerne!

[Tailfin61]

I read through the article quickly again and it doesn't mention retail vs. fleet sales, so I would assume it does include fleet sales. But that also means the Charger/300 etc also includes fleet sales.

I chose those nameplates as they had been in articles that the Lucerne was compared against.

I see the Impala as a competitor to Accord/Camry, not Lucerne.

Impala sold 30,716 in June

Accord sold 32,587

Camry sold 41,427

Other Lucerne competitors could be:

Crown Vic - 7204

Grand Marquis - 5132

DTS - 5879

S80 - 879 (not a typo)

Any other thoughts on true competitors to Lucerne that I missed?

Lucerne YTD 2006 = 47,123

Avalon YTD 2006 = 45,036

Montego YTD 2006 = 12,706

Crown Vic YTD 2006 = 36,110

Grand Marguis YTD 2006 = 33, 896

300 YTD 3006 = 73,135

Charger YTD 2006 = 59,005

Charger/Magnum YTD 2006 = 81,018

S80 YTD 2006 = 4311

LeSabre YTD 2005 = 46,361

Park Ave YTD 2005 = 1916

Lucerne 2006 YTD very close (but less than) combined LeSabre and Park Ave for 2005.

[ehaase]

I see the Lucerne's competitors being the Chrysler 300, Mercury Grand Marquis, and the Toyota Avalon.

I see the Malibu as GM's competitor for the Camry and Accord.

I see the Impala as competing against the Dodge Charger and the Ford Five Hundred.

[Turbojett]

Wow!  Way over the Avalon!

169460[/snapback]

aside from Merc, all the Americans listed outsold the Accor---I mean Avalon. Avalon.

[Bimmer325]

I'm just north of NYC and rarely see a Lucerne.

I've probably seen two or three since they've been on sale.

[DetroitNut90]

Hmm...I've noticed a lot of Lucernes around here-particularly the CXS V8 with the 18s. And Baltimore/DC isn't very taken with Buicks usually. Out of all of them that I've seen, only three had rental car badges on them, and 2 were CX models and one was a CXL V6. The Lucernes already out-number the last-gen Avalon and are beginning to do the same to the new model.

Congratulations Lucernce for a great month of sales-keep it up!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Just more proof that GM's "damaged brands" still have LOTS of equity when given half decent product...

Funny, that the G6 and Lucerne have become such shining stars in the face of all the doom-n-gllom Buick & Pontiac attitudes.

As for the Charger... Give me an SRT-8 anyday! As for Mercury... Just as much potential as Buick or anyone else if they had DIRECTION and product.

[jry]

The Charger is a WAY better looking car then the "melted bar of soap" Lucerne!

169492[/snapback]

the charger really does appeal to a different type of buyer. I'd would pick the charger over the lucerne.

[The O.C.]

OC, if you're going to do it that way, can we stack Impala + GP + Lacross up in sales numbers?

How about Cobalt + G5 + HHR v. Corolla/Matrix

Then of course there is Equinox, Vue, Torrent v. Rav4

Why aren't you including the DTS in your Lucerne count?

169745[/snapback]

Very simple.

I was using the sales numbers providing in the original post.

Nothing more....nothing less.....

[The O.C.]

I see the Lucerne's competitors being the Chrysler 300, Mercury Grand Marquis, and the Toyota Avalon.

I see the Malibu as GM's competitor for the Camry and Accord.

I see the Impala as competing against the Dodge Charger and the Ford Five Hundred.

170228[/snapback]

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

[samuel]

You evidently like bombastic styling.  All the crap that is coming out of Chrysler (the 300, the Charger, their trucks) are all pumped up on steroids and will look stupid in just a matter of years...just like the PT Cruiser, and even GM's HHR, look stupid and will look more stupid.  The Lucerne is a leap forward for Buick (especially from the last LeSabre) and is beautifully detailed in its exterior (I don't like a few things about the interior).  It will look contemporary and tasteful for quite a while.

In fact, isn't it kind of a riot how you can see the big Dodge trucks (some of them with a construction box in the back) and look at the driver and say "Yep."  Seems like a certain type of person gravitates to those.

Go Lucerne!

169901[/snapback]

I said the Charger, not the 300, was WAY better looking than the Lucerne, which it is. The Lucerne is timid and uninspired. They even stole the rear end from a Passat! Talk about a lack of confidence. The Charger is distinctive and confident in a good way. The 300 is not my cup of tea, it looks kind of odd in profile.

Yes, a certain kind of person gravitates towards a Ram, someone who wants the utility of a truck, something big, safe, and yes, good looking. I am not sure what else you are implying. I considered one in '03 but ended up with a Silverado because I decided I wanted Quadrasteer (and what am amazing feature it is).

[evok]

Can I post it to stir the pot?

Avalon is a flop.

Ugly Camry soon to follow.

169618[/snapback]

Wow - very insightfull, too bad the Avalon's sales are up and now are only a couple thousand behind the Lucerne/Lasabre.

In 2004 - Toyota sold 36k Avalons all year and in 2006 they sold that many in the first 5 months.

I sure bet GM wishes they had a flop like that Avalon to deal with.