Drove an '06 Malibu LT for a week.

[CARBIZ]

I sometimes get tired beating a dead horse, but the same people on this site beat the same subjects to death that the biased media do. I wonder if they are one and the same people?

It has never been argued here that the Malibu is class leading. Why should it be? It is a $18,000 (Canadian) car in LS (4 cyl) dress. The current Malibu is a much better execution than the last generation. It does a decent job all around of performance, ride, features and PRICE for its TARGET market. Tough $h! if it isn't a BMW 3!

Am I a big fan of the Malibu? Not really. I"ve had two and they were both decent. I prefer the Impala. Is the Accord better? Yes, but then it is $5,000 more in my market.

Tell me, big fans of EVERYTHING JAPANESE, how many $5,000 increments does it take to get to a Bentley? Because where does this end?

And I don't buy this $h! about the Japanese having 20+ years of equity to live off - more like 20+ years of spoiled liberal arts grads pissed off at their parent's '84 Pontiac 6000 with an axe to grind. Are there any first generation Civics out there? No. But there are a lot of Chevettes on the road. Are there any mid-80s Tercels left? No. But there is a first generation Cavalier in my underground parking.

The critics who do the carping about crappy American cars are overlooking one very big factor: GM and Ford pissed off MILLIONS of customers in the '80s with their crappy cars - I won't argue that. However, Toyota and HOnda pissed off proportionately just as many, but they sold a tenth as much through the '80s, so Japan Inc's equity is that they didn't sell as many cars back in the Bad Old Days and it went unnoticed that they rusted out and fell apart in 4 or 5 years.

If one writer on this board cannot express an opinion about a car that he drove, and express his thoughts that it was a far better car than he'd hoped for, then these usual suspects are just sad.

What kind of an agenda does one have to have to $h! all over someone else just because they say, "hey, I kinda liked this car?"

[evok]

As usual your arguments are all over the place and frankly are not very rational.

** Continue to beat the dead horse.**

Let me summarize your absurd post:

1) Blame the media.

2) Blame the public.

3) Blame the spoiled liberals.

4) Blame the buff magazine.

Frankly that is irrational.

The facts of the situation are:

The GMX360 Malibu has not been accepted by the public and that can and has been shown by the lack of sales success, particularly on the retail level. On the retail level both the Camry and Accord outsell the Malibu in the US almost 4:1 and at premium pricing.

An intelligent person would ask "why?"

[NeonLX]

BTW, Stown'n Go ain't Chrysler's.  They had a 2 year contract to use it and now other manufacturers will have it, too.  Hopefully, GM will put it in the next generation BUT keep in mind the gas tank has to shrink by 4 gallons, the spare tire has to move - all is not warm and fuzzy with stowable seats.

169330[/snapback]

Don't think that's true about the fuel capacity--both stow & go and non-stow & go models have a 20 gallon tank; same size as it's always been (or at least that's what my current '06, former '02 and '99 models had). Just confirmed it on the Dodge website too.

http://www.dodge.com/caravan/index.html

I personally am not nuts about the stow & go feature because it adds weight to the vehicle (and puts the spare in an awkward location). That's one of the reasons why we are driving a loaded up "standard length" Caravan (plus added maneuverability & excellent price).

[DetroitNut90]

I can live with an akward placement of a spare tire and extra weight if it means that I'll never struggle with removing/replacing a U-body minivan's rear seats.

[NeonLX]

I can live with an akward placement of a spare tire and extra weight if it means that I'll never struggle with removing/replacing a U-body minivan's rear seats.

169516[/snapback]

We've got the quad seating in the middle & the split rear bench in the rear of our Caravan. They are a snap to take out and put back in. Not too heavy either; something like 40-lbs. Yeah, the stow & go is nice though--especially if you don't have anywhere to stash the seats when they aren't in your minivan (ours fit up in the front of the garage with no problem).

[enzl]

I sometimes get tired beating a dead horse, but the same people on this site beat the same subjects to death that the biased media do.  I wonder if they are one and the same people?

  It has never been argued here that the Malibu is class leading.  Why should it be?  It is a $18,000 (Canadian) car in LS (4 cyl) dress.  The current Malibu is a much better execution than the last generation.  It does a decent job all around of performance, ride, features and PRICE for its TARGET  market.  Tough $h! if it isn't a BMW 3!

  Am I a big fan of the Malibu?  Not really.  I"ve had two and they were both decent.  I prefer the Impala.  Is the Accord better?  Yes, but then it is $5,000 more in my market.

  Tell me, big fans of EVERYTHING JAPANESE, how many $5,000 increments does it take to get to a Bentley?  Because where does this end?

 

  And I don't buy this $h! about the Japanese having 20+ years of equity to live off - more like 20+ years of spoiled liberal arts grads pissed off at their parent's '84 Pontiac 6000 with an axe to grind.  Are there any first generation Civics out there?  No.  But there are a lot of Chevettes on the road.  Are there any mid-80s Tercels left?  No.  But there is a first generation Cavalier in my underground parking.

  The critics who do the carping about crappy American cars are overlooking one very big factor:  GM and Ford pissed off MILLIONS of customers in the '80s with their crappy cars - I won't argue that.  However, Toyota and HOnda pissed off proportionately just as many, but they sold a tenth as much through the '80s, so Japan Inc's equity is that they didn't sell as many cars back in the Bad Old Days and it went unnoticed that they rusted out and fell apart in 4 or 5 years.

  If one writer on this board cannot express an opinion about a car that he drove, and express his thoughts that it was a far better car than he'd hoped for, then these usual suspects are just sad.

  What kind of an agenda does one have to have to $h! all over someone else just because they say, "hey, I kinda liked this car?"

169440[/snapback]

what's sad is that you've missed the point....the Malibu should stand on its own merits--against competitors--to damn it with faint praise is like saying its 'good enough'

Good Enough won't get the converts back. It costs the same to design an interesting product as it does a boring one. Why did GM choose boring? It defies logic and brings up an endless amount of questions as to what was going on at RenCen during development...

The Malibu, I will readily concede, is an average car. We need better. My Chevy store doesn't even bother to stock a full range of models for our retail customers...that says volumes when we're selling 5,000 cars a year between fleet and retail...

Nooone criticized anyone for thinking the car was a decent drive...we were critical of GM for producing something that even GM fans conclude is no better than average...

[The O.C.]

Okay, back from the JD Power Consumer Center website.  The car does well vs. the competition in several categories.  I sampled a Malibu LT 2.2L against an Altima 2.5S, a Camry CE, an Accord LX and a Fusion SE.  The Malibu is a solid, quality car let down only by its front end design, and even that is subjective.  The car has a history of good scores for quality, extending from the last generation car.

168887[/snapback]

The Malibu has a trash interior that, in the words of C&D, "feels like if you turned the car upside down and shook it, the whole interior would fall out in pieces."

That's a great way of describing how I feel about the interior quality and fit-and-finish. Every Malibu I've been in has nice plastic on the dash top and door panels. Everything else feels like it was pieced together by the lowest bidding supplier.

The cloth seats were unsupportive and back-achingly-uncomfortable on a 250-mile trip from Fresno to the Bay Area.

Not to mention manual upshift buttons placed on the shifter right where MOST people would put their thumbs to shift out of park....what's wrong with most everyone else's idea of a manual shift gate off to the left or right of the normal shift gate?

To me, it's always been a prime example of General Motors engineering a vehicle to the lowest common denominator.

I'd MUCH rather own the Sonata LX V6 I'm driving as a rental car right now than I would a comparable Malibu....and that's SAD.

[The O.C.]

No one is denying that the Malibu is a good car.

168920[/snapback]

I am.

I'm sure the one thing Malibu has going for it is that it's mechanicals WILL be reliable over the long haul.

Problem is....most other manufacturers today build vehicles that will have reliable mechanicals over the long haul.

Other than that, the vehicle falls behind just about every other competing car in the segment in most-to-all other areas....including the Koreans.

So....i don't feel Malibu is a "good car."

[The O.C.]

Thanks for the laugh.  This was/is a discussion on the Malibu, not an interpersonal dispute.  As such, I am free to comment however I choose to, Bill.

Well, I would certainly hope the people who own the Malibu like it...otherwise that would be pretty stupid to spend that significant of an amount of money on something they did not like (no matter how Blue Light Special of a deal it was) wouldn't it?

Even Aztek owners liked their vehicles (an assertion that is supported by JD Powers statistical data)...all 45 of them, at least.

168934[/snapback]

And as Evok's previous thread pointed out, in '05, only about $50K RETAIL customers purchased Malibu. That's not a very significant amount......

[The O.C.]

Chevy only sells and has sold app. 100-125k/yr Malibu's to retail customers over the life of the 380 program. Subsidized mind you.

And how does that compare to the Camry?

Dare I mention the carryover Classic P90 when the 380 was launched?  The 380 sales are a lost worse and now are heavily inflated because of fleet now that the Classic is out of production.  The vehicle has been a bust since initial release.  And I said that on this board at that time years ago. I was being kind to the 380 Mailbu in comparing the sales by ignoring the Classic.  Factoring the Classic into this discussion only makes the argument work in my favor. 

And expect the 380 to live on when the 385 is released next year.  GM is going to try the dual Classic/Malibu again.  Maybe this time it will work.

So Carbiz go back and look at this big picture.  It is a little more complex than your little persective in your little dealer.

The 380 program has been a bust since launch.

And I will not address your inclusion of the G6.  I have already show that the G6 compared to the Grand Am has not been a sales success using data since 2000.

It is you my friend who are full of it.  If I need a deal on undercoating or Lo Jack, or a faux convertible roof, I will be sure to seek your imput but not on this topic.

169130[/snapback]

To back up Evok.....

I remember standing NEXT to him at the auto show when they introducted the Malibu....and I remember how utterly stunned we were at how middle-of-the-road and how generic, bland, and boring it was (and not in a Camry-sort-of-way.)

Do you remember Evok? In fact I even remember the car that they had up on the display was a dark-grey/dark-green color.....

THAT same day....he and I BOTH predicted that this car would be a failure for GM.

[The O.C.]

One other consideration here:  the Malibu (and other domestic offerings) have a real uphill battle on their hands when it comes to the automotive press. 

169145[/snapback]

I'm getting sick of people using this as an excuse.

The Koreans used to get slammed by the press universally too. Why? Because they built $h! cars.

Guess what? Many Korean cars now get fairly positive, if not rave, reviews. I remember a few midsize-sedan comparison tests where a new Sonata finished towards the top of the pack.

Why?

Because they started building cars that were better engineered....better styled....and built better to fit the needs and desires of the consumers in the marketplace.

Arguably they had an even BIGGER hill to climb than GM did.....

....but GM just continues to be the press' whippin' boy....why? Because they REFUSE to engineer, design, and execute mainstream products that have any lasting appeal or solidarity in the marketplace.

[The O.C.]

Just once, I'd like to see an automotive expert drive a car and judge it by what it is supposed to do, how much it will cost to buy and who is going to buy it AND KEEP THEIR OWN DAMNED PREJUDICES OUT OF IT. 

169187[/snapback]

They don't have to.

The public is already indicating to GM their judgement of what they want a car to do, how much it will cost to buy, and who is buying them.

$50K retail Malibus.

$350K (roughly based upon about 25% fleet) retail Camrys.

And GM is not listening to that buying public.

[The O.C.]

I've not driven the current gen Malibu, a probably never will. I simply don't like the exterior.

I drove a previous gen one and hated it, the plastic "stitching" on the steering wheel dug into my hands, the materials, though many of them soft, squeaked when pressed on, the gas peddle was overly  sensative, teh steering was to light and the brakes were mushy. This sorta irrlelavant, since this thread pertains to the current gen car, just felt like saying something

Just out of curiousity, does the current gen car still have these issues?

169201[/snapback]

ABSOLUTELY it does.

That's the problem.

Those things were issues with the old Malibu.....and GM up-and-develops a brand-new Malibu on a brand-new architecture.....and that car exhibits the very same negative attributes.

[CARBIZ]

Nothing gets through to you two does it? It is too bad the Malibu doesn't live up to YOUR vaunted standards. Enough people like them that it keeps the factory running. You conveniently ignore points brought up by other people that you don't want to hear. You grudgingly admit the car has been reliable. That must have hurt.

WHAT PART OF $5,000 DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND??? NOT EVERYBODY HAS $5,000 TO BUY AN ACCORD. The Malibu is filling that niche nicely, thank you. You can't simply say the Accord/Camry is better unless you acknowledge that for FIVE THOUSAND F'ING DOLLARS THEY HAD BETTER BE! Or are you too snobby to admit there are poor people out there that need a reliable car that is under $20k (Canadian figures) that HAPPENS to be a GM product. Does that stick in your craw? Keep you up at nights?

The seats are fine in the Vectra, but not good enough for you apparently.

What a simple world it must be where you guys live. When someone comes into a Chevy show room the Malibu is the only car they have. There is nothing else. There is no Epica, no Impala. The customer can't go down the street and buy a G6. NOPE. They have to buy a Malibu. Geez.

And this is the 3rd year of the body style, against some newer competition. And if you want a nicer interior, buy the damned SS, which is still only the price of an Accord V-6 and will blow the doors off it.

It's like a broken record around here. You guys remind me of the Argument Clinic of Monty Python fame. Every time someone says they like a GM vehicle (like NeonLX), you gotta automatically pee all over it.

[CARBIZ]

......oh, and I guess the other 50-60k Malibus sold to fleet must have been junked after the first year because NOBODY bought those either.

[Well, if other's can post 8 times to try and get out what they want to say, so can I....]

[The O.C.]

Nothing gets through to you two does it?  It is too bad the Malibu doesn't live up to YOUR vaunted standards.  Enough people like them that it keeps the factory running.  You conveniently ignore points brought up by other people that you don't want to hear.  You grudgingly admit the car has been reliable.  That must have hurt.

  WHAT PART OF $5,000 DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???  NOT EVERYBODY HAS $5,000 TO BUY AN ACCORD.  The Malibu is filling that niche nicely, thank you.  You can't simply say the Accord/Camry is better unless you acknowledge that for FIVE THOUSAND F'ING DOLLARS THEY HAD BETTER BE!  Or are you too snobby to admit there are poor people out there that need a reliable car that is under $20k (Canadian figures) that HAPPENS to be a GM product.  Does that stick in your craw?  Keep you up at nights?

  The seats are fine in the Vectra, but not good enough for you apparently.

  What a simple world it must be where you guys live.  When someone comes into a Chevy show room the Malibu is the only car they have.  There is nothing else. There is no Epica, no Impala.  The customer can't go down the street and buy a G6.  NOPE. They have to buy a Malibu.  Geez.

  And this is the 3rd year of the body style, against some newer competition.  And if you want a nicer interior, buy the damned SS, which is still only the price of an Accord V-6 and will blow the doors off it.

  It's like a broken record around here.  You guys remind me of the Argument Clinic of Monty Python fame.  Every time someone says they like a GM vehicle (like NeonLX), you gotta automatically pee all over it.

169593[/snapback]

Ok....since you went there...I'll rip THIS post of yours to threads also.

First of all....as Evok pointed out repeatedly....Camry and Accord (not to mention the others in the segment) are VASTLY outselling the Malibu...AT PREMIUM PRICES. That means people are willing to pay for what they perceive as a better purchase decision. I don't think someone that can only spend $5K less....is a "poor person."

How do you "defend" the Hyundai Sonata? That car has a similar pricing strategy (as Malibu) relative to the Japanese sedans. Ironically, that car has been a big success for Hyundai relative to the sales of the previous-generation Sonata and is arguably a more stylish car (than Malibu) and is engineered to a much higher level (than Malibu.)

Alas....that is just MHO.

What about your comments about the seats in a Vectra? Sorry my friend.....the seats in a Malibu have NOTHING to do with the seats in a Vectra. At least they certainly didn't seem to be the same chairs when I sat in numerous Vectras in Frankfurt.

Finally just to show how very little you even know about your OWN products you sell.....you tell me if I want a nicer interior to "buy an SS."

ANYONE that knows Chevys knows that the Malibu "SS" models aren't the most "luxurious" interiors in a Malibu. That would be the leather/suede interiors on the uplevel LTZ model.

SS models are cloth/vinyl combos.....and other than color (ebony), and a three-spoke wheel....not that different than mainstream Malibus.

FINALLY......an SS blowing away an Accord V6? Hmmm.....from C&D road tests....

Malibu Maxx SS - 0-60 in 6.9secs.....

Honda Accord EX V6 - 0-60 in 7.0secs.....(original '03 road test.)

I would'nt consider a 0.1sec difference "blowing away" the Accord. In fact, you BETTER hope that Accord is not a coupe or sedan with a 6-speed manual....because it's 5.9sec 0-60 will embarrass an SS Malibu....and stay on the heels of a V8 Impala SS.

[DetroitNut90]

We've got the quad seating in the middle & the split rear bench in the rear of our Caravan. They are a snap to take out and put back in.  Not too heavy either; something like 40-lbs.  Yeah, the stow & go is nice though--especially if you don't have anywhere to stash the seats when they aren't in your minivan (ours fit up in the front of the garage with no problem).

169539[/snapback]

That's how our Venture is set up, but my experiences with the seats are the exact opposite of yours, as you can tell from my above posts-there are no rollers, no easy in-out things, just clumsy, akward, bulky seats that you need to position 6 times before they even begin to line up with the hooks. Fiddling with these seats is probably the worst punishment GM could have dealt me. And I', the only one in my household that has a clus as to how they go in/out.

[ocnblu]

Well, waddya think, Mr. NeonLX, are you sufficiently brainwashed? Are you going to now buy an Accord? Are you sorry you ever posted this innocent thread? :AH-HA_wink:

[evok]

To back up Evok.....

I remember standing NEXT to him at the auto show when they introducted the Malibu....and I remember how utterly stunned we were at how middle-of-the-road and how generic, bland, and boring it was (and not in a Camry-sort-of-way.)

Do you remember Evok?  In fact I even remember the car that they had up on the display was a dark-grey/dark-green color.....

THAT same day....he and I BOTH predicted that this car would be a failure for GM.

169581[/snapback]

Yes I remember.

The worst surprise for me was when I got my first glipse of the 380 underwraps.

I was walking on the build floor and saw the first 380s incamo.

I though it was a mule epsilon with a P90 body on it.

I was wrong.

[ocnblu]

I still say the car is handsome except for the front end. The MAXX bodystyle is very versatile (yes, I know it has not sold well, nor has the european version sold well, last I read.) And I will concede that styling still sells cars. If you were disappointed at first glance, what other evidence did you have the car would flop, except for the styling?

[evok]

Nothing gets through to you two does it?  It is too bad the Malibu doesn't live up to YOUR vaunted standards.  Enough people like them that it keeps the factory running.  You conveniently ignore points brought up by other people that you don't want to hear.  You grudgingly admit the car has been reliable.  That must have hurt.

Frankly compared to the competition it is not living up to many others expectations also. Including GMs. Sales have never hit projections and the plant was not running at capacity. Ever. The car is dependible. So is a Kia and a Hyundai.

WHAT PART OF $5,000 DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???  NOT EVERYBODY HAS $5,000 TO BUY AN ACCORD.  The Malibu is filling that niche nicely, thank you.  You can't simply say the Accord/Camry is better unless you acknowledge that for FIVE THOUSAND F'ING DOLLARS THEY HAD BETTER BE!  Or are you too snobby to admit there are poor people out there that need a reliable car that is under $20k (Canadian figures) that HAPPENS to be a GM product.  Does that stick in your craw?  Keep you up at nights?

And that my friend is why GM is loosing money in NA.

The seats are fine in the Vectra, but not good enough for you apparently.

  What a simple world it must be where you guys live.  When someone comes into a Chevy show room the Malibu is the only car they have.  There is nothing else. There is no Epica, no Impala.  The customer can't go down the street and buy a G6.  NOPE. They have to buy a Malibu.  Geez.

No they go to Hyundai, Kia, Ford, etc.

And this is the 3rd year of the body style, against some newer competition.  And if you want a nicer interior, buy the damned SS, which is still only the price of an Accord V-6 and will blow the doors off it.

This is not worth answering.

It's like a broken record around here. 

Please go back and read your posts.

Second you might have a point if GM were growing in the US.

PS - NeonLX is a big boy and can make his own decisions.

[evok]

If you were disappointed at first glance, what other evidence did you have the car would flop, except for the styling?[/b]

169680[/snapback]

Styling and Powertrain: Both derived from the P90 Malibu which was not doing well in the market and heavily fleeted.

Sound familiar?

[HarleyEarl]

The writer forgot to mention one thing. The Malibu has to be one of the nerdiest looking cars on the market. The only thing that saves it, is in SS form.

[ocnblu]

GM's 60-degree OHV V6 is not their best V6 (3800 and 3.6L best it, for sure), but it certainly has powered millions of cars and trucks over the past... 28 years or so... in an unobtrusive, efficient manner (Although I prefer the older versions for their exhaust note if nothing else). And the 4 speed automatic has won praise for its function from many sources. Am I wrong to believe Ford approached GM to help them jointly engineer a new 6 speed automatic partly because of GM's success with FWD transaxles?

[I hope GMRULES again]

How do you "defend" the Hyundai Sonata?  That car has a similar pricing strategy (as Malibu) relative to the Japanese sedans.  Ironically, that car has been a big success for Hyundai relative to the sales of the previous-generation Sonata and is arguably a more stylish car (than Malibu) and is engineered to a much higher level (than Malibu.

169601[/snapback]

What about the new Sonata being in the top 10 for fleet sales this year. That tells me it isn't selling that well to RETAIL customers that everyone likes to rip GM about. And Chevy really has 2 mid size cars in the Malibu and Impala,similair in size,engines, fuel economy etc... added together they pretty much equal Accord or Camry.

I will agree the Malibu or any GM car needs to be a lot better if its to attract new customers.

[razoredge]

Because they started building cars that were better engineered....better styled....and built better to fit the needs and desires of the consumers in the marketplace.

GM has done this as well.

....but GM just continues to be the press' whippin' boy....why?  Because they REFUSE to engineer, design, and execute mainstream products that have any lasting appeal or solidarity in the marketplace.

169584[/snapback]

Many recent GMs have had and still do have more lasting appeal. There is good solidarity amounst owners too. GM's have lasting ability too, but the brain washed public does not know or understand this. Properly picked GMs are one of the best used buys on the market.

The Koreans are doing well largly due to that awsome warrenty and serious local firesale tatics which is easier for them due to a labor force that only needs a bowl of rice at the end of the day. I tried to pay my land tax's with a whole box of rice and got laughed at.

Not all of GM's or Ford and Chryslers whippins are justified.............

Edited July 22, 2006 by razoredge

[siegen]

Are there any first generation Civics out there?  No.  But there are a lot of Chevettes on the road.  Are there any mid-80s Tercels left?  No.  But there is a first generation Cavalier in my underground parking.

Is this your personal observations?

[Satty]

One thing you cannot deny the 04+ Malibu, its a hell of a used car value. For a few grand less than my Fusion I could have had a very well equipped MAXX or a fully loaded sedan. The thing is, after about 3 weeks, those two thousand dollars seem very well spent.

[CARBIZ]

O.C., look it up, the seats in the Malibu come from France, the same manufacturer that supplies the Vectra.

Siegen, of course it is my personal observations. I said there is a 1983 Cavalier in my under ground garage that someone is still driving. I remember 6 years ago considering to buy a 1985 era Tercel hatch back and was warned by 3 differernt garages to steer clear because all of those Tercels had serious rust problems with the lift gate and I wouldn't be able to find one at the wreckers. In Ontario and the nothern seaboard of the U.S. where we use a lot of salt in the winters, rust is a big problem. It is rare to see any vehicles older than 15 years up here, but the Japanese of the '80s were the worst.

GM is losing money in North America because the union gets $17 million worth of Viagra, because there are, like, 100,000 people on pension and because Fiat got a $2billion dollar kiss off last year. It has nothing to do with the Malibu. The Impala is selling fantastically well. Considering the neglect GM gave their cars from '95 to a couple years ago, we should be glad the hemmoraghing isn't worse. Lutz can only be in so many places at one time!

We could debate this until the cows come home. That is the fun part of C&G. I just wish you Japanese apologists would come up with something original once in a while. Or at least try to be objective.

[enzl]

  GM is losing money in North America because the union gets $17 million worth of Viagra, because there are, like, 100,000 people on pension and because Fiat got a $2billion dollar kiss off last year.  It has nothing to do with the Malibu.  The Impala is selling fantastically well.  Considering the neglect GM gave their cars from '95 to a couple years ago, we should be glad the hemmoraghing isn't worse.  Lutz can only be in so many places at one time!

  We could debate this until the cows come home.  That is the fun part of C&G.  I just wish you Japanese apologists would come up with something original once in a while.  Or at least try to be objective.

169859[/snapback]

GM loses money because a large portion of the populace will NOT buy their products at the prices GM wishes to charge....

The reasons have been given here thousands of times by us 'apologists'. They are sound, objective, business-like reasons, generally backed up by research & numbers, not antecdotal evidence like how many old Cavaliers you've seen in your local parking lot...c'mon dude...is anyone clamoring for a '91 Cavi or an 84 Tercel? People drive those vehicles b/c they are cheap and happen to still run.

At the end of the day, the 'bu is an average piece, no more, no less. Economical & reliable?- absolutely---able to turn the tide and convert Accord or Camry buyers?-hardly.

Just in case you haven't read it before, I depend upon Big 2.5 product to be good. It dissapoints me when it isn't good, especially in the frustrating ways these deficiencies are repeated generationally. It ain't just the sheep buying Japanese cars/trucks my friends, its your neighbors or your grandma....many of them won't step into my big 2.5 showrooms anymore.

To change perception, one must change reality....the 'bu ain't going to change hearts or minds in it's current incarnation. It is one nice rental unit, however.

Edited July 22, 2006 by enzl

[I hope GMRULES again]

GM loses money because a large portion of the populace will NOT buy their products at the prices GM wishes to charge....

The reasons have been given here thousands of times by us 'apologists'. They are sound, objective, business-like reasons, generally backed up by research & numbers, not antecdotal evidence like how many old Cavaliers you've seen in your local parking lot...c'mon dude...is anyone clamoring for a '91 Cavi or an 84 Tercel? People drive those vehicles b/c they are cheap and happen to still run.

At the end of the day, the 'bu is an average piece, no more, no less. Economical & reliable?- absolutely---able to turn the tide and convert Accord or Camry buyers?-hardly.

Just in case you haven't read it before, I depend upon Big 2.5 product to be good. It dissapoints me when it isn't good, especially in the frustrating ways these deficiencies are repeated generationally. It ain't just the sheep buying Japanese cars/trucks my friends, its your neighbors or your grandma....many of them won't step into my big 2.5 showrooms anymore.

To change perception, one must change reality....the 'bu ain't going to change hearts or minds in it's current incarnation. It is one nice rental unit, however.

169864[/snapback]

Thanks for typing all of that for me, I agree 100%

[The O.C.]

The Koreans are doing well largly due to that awsome warrenty and serious local firesale tatics which is easier for them due to a labor force that only needs a bowl of rice at the end of the day.

Not all of GM's or Ford and Chryslers whippins are justified.............

169718[/snapback]

Uh....have you ever DRIVEN a new Hyundai Sonata? Or sat inside a Kia Spectra that has nice, SOFT touch plastics on the dash and door panels (hint, hint...Cobalt product planners)?

It's no longer JUST the warranty.

BTW....you are correct....not all of GM's cars deserved the whippings they get.....but 85% of them DO deserve it.....

[The O.C.]

Is this your personal observations?

169725[/snapback]

I can't remember the last time I saw a Chevette on the road.......

[The O.C.]

Considering the neglect GM gave their cars from '95 to a couple years ago, we should be glad the hemmoraghing isn't worse.  Lutz can only be in so many places at one time!

169859[/snapback]

CARBIZ....no offense....but your statement above is the same sort of pessimistic view that GM has been taking for too long.....

They've got TONS of talent at that company. The problem is is that no one in the upper ranks will allow the talent to shine.

Believe it or not....it doesn't take a Lutz-type figure in an organization to turn out ground-breaking, attractively-styled, and well-executed products.

GM's got the talent to do it themselves. I truly believe it's a matter of General Motors not being able to see the big picture....not truly understanding what the market is really like....and letting the bean-counters dumb-down just about any innovative product decision or design that comes down the pike.

Why else would Europe and Australia get the kind of GM products they do.....and we get the $h! in America that they give us?

Don't tell me it's because the markets and consumers are different.

I think we've all seen that the mass market in THIS country IS gravitating towards the types of products that GM sells overseas. The sales numbers, market share numbers, and media "influence" illustrate that quite effectively. It's just that GM is letting the Asians and Europeans (in this country) have those consumers instead of keeping them themselves.

Edited July 22, 2006 by The O.C.

[evok]

One thing you cannot deny the 04+ Malibu, its a hell of a used car value.  For a few grand less than my Fusion I could have had a very well equipped MAXX or a fully loaded sedan.  The thing is, after about 3 weeks, those two thousand dollars seem very well spent.

169829[/snapback]

You know we have talked about it offline and I agree.

[chevelle454]

Fiat got a $2billion dollar kiss off last year.   

169859[/snapback]

It was more Like 4 billion last year and 2 billion a few years back. Thats a huge waste of money

[evok]

O.C., look it up, the seats in the Malibu come from France, the same manufacturer that supplies the Vectra.

169859[/snapback]

What does the seat supplier Faurecia have to do with anything? Faurecia has operations in MI. Because Faurecia supplier both the Vectra and Malibu seats it does not mean the seat share the important things. Cushions and trim.

GM is losing money in North America because the union gets $17 million worth of Viagra, because there are, like, 100,000 people on pension and because Fiat got a $2billion dollar kiss off last year.  It has nothing to do with the Malibu.  The Impala is selling fantastically well.  Considering the neglect GM gave their cars from '95 to a couple years ago, we should be glad the hemmoraghing isn't worse.  Lutz can only be in so many places at one time!

You really do not understand automotive. Products like the Malibu, G6, Lacrosse, V-Vans are the poster children of all that is wrong with GM in the eyes of the larger public. And this death spiral only circles back to more plant closing, higher legacy cost/vehicle, etc.

And as far as what is on the road right now. What has the public seen from Lutz? The Solstice? Sky? Where do you get off making blanket statements like that?

We could debate this until the cows come home.

You do not know who to debate. You throw buck shot to the board and very little of it sticks. Your arguments are all over the place and are more opinion than fact.

That is the fun part of C&G. 

We can agree on that.

I just wish you Japanese apologists would come up with something original once in a while.  Or at least try to be objective

Objective - I will let the board decide the merits of that!

For us apologist - I really wonder how many of us here are actually driving foreign brand cars at the moment.

I know I am driving GM's biggest market flop given all the awards it has received.

[Flybrian]

I know I am driving GM's biggest market flop given all the awards it has received.

169908[/snapback]

Aww. Reg has an Aztek buddy!

[ocnblu]

You have an Aztek??? Edited July 22, 2006 by ocnblu

[evok]

You have an Aztek???

169912[/snapback]

OT: I do not remember the Aztek receiving awards but pretty close as far as sales go and market acceptance.

[CARBIZ]

O.C., actually we are in complete agreement. I talked to a GM supplier who came to our dealer a couple years back to do measurements on a live Colorado (they were to supply mud flaps, or some such) and he lamented about GM's design changes and how the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. I think right on C&G we are hearing from a lot of the GM talent and what they wish would change.

And you're right: Europe and South America build some pretty nice GM vehicles that I wish were sold here.

But I think (hope?) GM has finally gotten religion. One example of this is that 4 or 5 years ago all the comparisons GM was doing in our training exercises was Chevy against Ford or Chevy against Jeep. I was screaming at the trainers 5 years ago to F#@k Ford and Chrysler, that I wanted to see comparisons with Honda and Toyota. Finally, that is what they have been doing now for the past year or so. We now do comparos of the Cobalt and Civic, not Focus.

Perhaps we are not so far apart. Perception versus reality is the real challenge, for sure. GM's cars have come a long way in the past 2 or 3 years. Do they have further to go? Well, wouldn't we all want the Malibu and Impala to be better? Yes! This Malibu to the last is a quantum leap. Against the Accord or Camry? Not an entirely fair comparison (price!) but one that some consumers are making, to be sure.

Here's hoping that the next Malibu leapfrogs the Camry and Accord but doesn't forget the minions who don't want to spend $30k on a V-6!

[ocnblu]

hmmm... is it an SSR?

[BigPontiac]

OT: I do not remember the Aztek receiving awards but pretty close as far as sales go and market acceptance.

169929[/snapback]

Cadillac SRX? Mostly good reviews, award by Car and Driver, hasn't been that well received in the market...

[ocnblu]

Uh... that vehicle does not exist... please tell me you aren't talking about the SRX.

[ocnblu]

Has anything broken? Worn inordinately fast?

[razoredge]

Uh....have you ever DRIVEN a new Hyundai Sonata?  Or sat inside a Kia Spectra that has nice, SOFT touch plastics on the dash and door panels (hint, hint...Cobalt product planners)?

It's no longer JUST the warranty.

BTW....you are correct....not all of GM's cars deserved the whippings they get.....but 85% of them DO deserve it.....

169886[/snapback]

I dont give a hoot about touchy feely plastics. If thats what the average car buyer does, molest the interior and if it doesnt get them aroused they go look at the next car, I can see why the roads are clogged with numb brains. Plastics dont sell cars. "Oh, ew, ah, I just had to have that car, the ?plastics? were just so soft"...........alrighty then.

Warrenty sells cars especially 10/100,000 I myself can admit to be tempted

Firesale sells cars. I am currently a good example though we were looking before 0%

We have a local Hyundia dealer that spends a small fortune on radio advertising every August and floods the road with Hyundias, its visably noticable. Then Im sure after that other local dealers including Rice find sales slow. We looked at Hyundia last year and walked away, guess I should have rubbed all over the interior................maybe that would have changed my mind.

Crushed Velour Rules.......................GM U S E D to use it.

Hinty hinty

[HarleyEarl]

Razoredge, you crack me up!! You really need to write some automotive books. You definitely have a knack.

[The O.C.]

What does the seat supplier Faurecia have to do with anything? Faurecia has operations in MI.  Because Faurecia supplier both the Vectra and Malibu seats it does not mean the seat share the important things.  Cushions and trim.

You really do not understand automotive.  Products like the Malibu, G6, Lacrosse, V-Vans are the poster children of all that is wrong with GM in the eyes of the larger public.  And this death spiral only circles back to more plant closing, higher legacy cost/vehicle, etc.

And as far as what is on the road right now.  What has the public seen from Lutz?  The Solstice? Sky? Where do you get off making blanket statements like that?

You do not know who to debate.  You throw buck shot to the board and very little of it sticks.  Your arguments are all over the place and are more opinion than fact.

We can agree on that.

Objective - I will let the board decide the merits of that!

For us apologist - I really wonder how many of us here are actually driving foreign brand cars at the moment.

I know I am driving GM's biggest market flop given all the awards it has received.

169908[/snapback]

.....and I'm driving probably the best car GM makes.....(C6)......and just ordered what is most likely the second-best car GM makes.....(CTS)......

That's TWO healthy votes-of-confidence for the General from me......regardless of my often-scathing criticism of GM.

[The O.C.]

O.C., actually we are in complete agreement.  I talked to a GM supplier who came to our dealer a couple years back to do measurements on a live Colorado (they were to supply mud flaps, or some such) and he lamented about GM's design changes and how the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.  I think right on C&G we are hearing from a lot of the GM talent and what they wish would change.

  And you're right: Europe and South America build some pretty nice GM vehicles that I wish were sold here.

  But I think (hope?) GM has finally gotten religion.  One example of this is that 4 or 5 years ago all the comparisons GM was doing in our training exercises was Chevy against Ford or Chevy against Jeep.  I was screaming at the trainers 5 years ago to F#@k Ford and Chrysler, that I wanted to see comparisons with Honda and Toyota.  Finally, that is what they have been doing now for the past year or so.  We now do comparos of the Cobalt and Civic, not Focus.

  Perhaps we are not so far apart.  Perception versus reality is the real challenge, for sure.  GM's cars have come a long way in the past 2 or 3 years.  Do they have further to go?  Well, wouldn't we all want the Malibu and Impala to be better?  Yes!  This Malibu to the last is a quantum leap.  Against the Accord or Camry?  Not an entirely fair comparison (price!) but one that some consumers are making, to be sure. 

  Here's hoping that the next Malibu leapfrogs the Camry and Accord but doesn't forget the minions who don't want to spend $30k on a V-6!

169942[/snapback]

You wanna shake up the (compact-car) marketplace?

Why not slap the 2.8L, VVT 210hp V6 into the Cobalt SS and/or LTZ?

Why do I suggest this? BECAUSE NO ONE is doing it...!

GM was one of the pioneers (I think) of bringing V6 power to the compact segment (J-cars.) Why can't they do it again?

Yes I know it would add weight, reduce fuel economy, and add cost....but GM would be bringing to market a domestic alternative to the previous Jetta VR6 (re....small car, big and more importantly REFINED engine) and would give them something unique in the segment no one else is offering.

[The O.C.]

I dont give a hoot about touchy feely plastics. If thats what the average car buyer does, molest the interior and if it doesnt get them aroused they go look at the next car, I can see why the roads are clogged with numb brains. Plastics dont sell cars. "Oh, ew, ah, I just had to have that car, the ?plastics? were just so soft"...........alrighty then.

Warrenty sells cars especially 10/100,000 I myself can admit to be tempted

Firesale sells cars. I am currently a good example though we were looking before 0%

We have a local Hyundia dealer that spends a small fortune on radio advertising every August and floods the road with Hyundias, its visably noticable. Then Im sure after that other local dealers including Rice find sales slow. We looked at Hyundia last year and walked away, guess I should have rubbed all over the interior................maybe that would have changed my mind.

Crushed Velour Rules.......................GM U S E D to use it.

Hinty hinty

170046[/snapback]

And once again.....you've totally side-stepped my POINT.

My POINT was that Hyundai and Kia have greatly improved the quality, fit-and-finish, and execution of their products over what they used to offer....and that maybe...JUST maybe...people actually buy their products now because they <gasp> LIKE them....not JUST because they have a long warranty.