Asking again...how long will the 3800 V6

[trinacriabob]

Ok, guys, no debating how good or how bad or how old...we've been down that road before.

Through (inclusively speaking) which model year is this engine to be produced? I know that there was a guy who would show up once in a blue moon on the old website with all kinds of good technical info, including this engine, but he doesn't appear to be around.

So, please post if you know some concrete info on the end of production for this engine.

Gracias.

[loki]

i'd just have to guess 2 more years...till the w-body "dies" and the zeta and ep 1 or 2 (depends who you ask) show en masse. still debate between the 3900 and the 3.6 will go in the zeta... so pertaining to your question, nothing concrete as far as I know

just guessing that 08 may be the replacement in the lucerne?

[Paolino]

i'd just have to guess 2 more years...till the w-body "dies" and the zeta and ep 1 or 2 (depends who you ask) show en masse.  still debate between the 3900 and the 3.6 will go in the zeta... so pertaining to your question, nothing concrete as far as I know   

just guessing that 08 may be the replacement in the lucerne?

166997[/snapback]

I would guess the LaCrosse too, as it's due for a refresh--should also get a bump in power for the base engine, IMO.

[loki]

I would guess the LaCrosse too, as it's due for a refresh--should also get a bump in power for the base engine, IMO.

167041[/snapback]

maybe, but they could stick w/ the 3800 cause as far as we know, lacrosse's refresh is only for '08, and for the w-body, the GP is the only other one still with it, so, it'd be kept to save money , unless they just drop it from the lacross in the 08 "mce" and only offer the 3.6 and 5.3. not sure what the GP would do unless it got the impala's engine lineup.

i wonder how the GP GT (3.8 s/c) has sold this year so far, better or worse than years past?

edit, lacrosse's refresh as in it's said to move to the EP platform then would have dif engines anyway.

Edited July 15, 2006 by loki

[ehaase]

Evok is probably the only person here who can answer that question.

[Imaj]

How much 3800s do they have? I hope they are just freeing inventories and building more of them!

The 3800 should of been replaced by the 3.5 and 3.9 HVV6 back in 2004.

[Paolino]

edit, lacrosse's refresh as in it's said to move to the EP platform then would have dif engines anyway.

167047[/snapback]

Wait... they'd switch platforms just for a small refresh?

[ehaase]

Wait... they'd switch platforms just for a small refresh?

167137[/snapback]

Don't understand your question. Everyone knows that the LaCrosse moves to Epsilon II around 2010.

[Northstar]

I think Paolino is talking about the refresh it's supposed to get with the Super model. However, it's staying on W for that.

[Paolino]

I think Paolino is talking about the refresh it's supposed to get with the Super model. However, it's staying on W for that.

167147[/snapback]

Yes, that's what I was talking about... thanks

[loki]

Don't understand your question.  Everyone knows that the LaCrosse moves to Epsilon II around 2010.

167145[/snapback]

so gm is going to make the w-body till the MY'10 comes out?...they only converting one line of the oshawa plant to zeta, till '10? you think the GP will stick around that long too?

[Northstar]

so gm is going to make the w-body till the MY'10 comes out?...they only converting one line of the oshawa plant to zeta, till '10? you think the GP will stick around that long too?

167155[/snapback]

The next LaCrosse isn't going to be built in Oshawa, as Oshawa 1 and 2 are being combined into one big plant that will produce 500,000+ Zeta vehicles per year.

If there is another GP, it will be produced at Oshawa most likely on Zeta, but I'm not positive there is one in the cards.

[trinacriabob]

How much 3800s do they have? I hope they are just freeing inventories and building more of them!

The 3800 should of been replaced by the 3.5 and 3.9 HVV6 back in 2004.

167095[/snapback]

Read my post at the beginning of the thread. I'm asking about the production schedule, not for you to dog the engine. The pro and con anti-3800 tread gets awfully long. Let it rest.

[trinacriabob]

OK...let's see if I understand.

LaCrosse came out in 2005. It remains "the same" for 2005, 2006, 2007. It features the same 3800 base engine.

It will get face-lifted in 2008. They won't do that for just one year, so it should remain on W-platform through 2009. Most likely, it will feature the 3800 in its base form, so the engine will be here through 2008, probably 2009.

In 2010, LaCrosse becomes a new platform vehicle.

Grand Prix, also built at Oshawa, ought to follow a similar schedule. Whether the name plate remains is to be seen. Most likely, it will offer the 3800 on the same schedule as the LaCrosse.

Lucerne will stay as we know for a while, given its newness.

Thus, it looks like 3800 will stick around through 2008 or possibly through 2009.

Does this seem like a correct interpretation? (If so, a mildly enhanced LaCrosse with a 3800 engine looks like it could he had?)

[ehaase]

See Evok's comment here - http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...97entry154097

[loki]

It will get face-lifted in 2008.  They won't do that for just one year, so it should remain on W-platform through 2009.  Most likely, it will feature the 3800 in its base form, so the engine will be here through 2008, probably 2009.

Grand Prix, also built at Oshawa, ought to follow a similar schedule.  Whether the name plate remains is to be seen.  Most likely, it will offer the 3800 on the same schedule as the LaCrosse.

Thus, it looks like 3800 will stick around through 2008 or possibly through 2009.

Does this seem like a correct interpretation?  (If so, a mildly enhanced LaCrosse with a 3800 engine looks like it could he had?)

167472[/snapback]

ok, just assuming lacross and GP stick around till 09, where would they be built? seriosly, i don't know... anyone else know where they'd move production, or do they allready do that somewhere else?

a H.O. 3800 for '08 and '09 would be nice unless they do replace it... but if not , one w/ what...~220hp and 235ft lbs would be nice..or just whatever SLP could bump it up to?

[Robert Hall]

OK...let's see if I understand.

LaCrosse came out in 2005.  It remains "the same" for 2005, 2006, 2007. It features the same 3800 base engine.

It will get face-lifted in 2008.  They won't do that for just one year, so it should remain on W-platform through 2009.  Most likely, it will feature the 3800 in its base form, so the engine will be here through 2008, probably 2009.

In 2010, LaCrosse becomes a new platform vehicle.

Grand Prix, also built at Oshawa, ought to follow a similar schedule.  Whether the name plate remains is to be seen.  Most likely, it will offer the 3800 on the same schedule as the LaCrosse.

Lucerne will stay as we know for a while, given its newness. 

Thus, it looks like 3800 will stick around through 2008 or possibly through 2009.

Does this seem like a correct interpretation?  (If so, a mildly enhanced LaCrosse with a 3800 engine looks like it could he had?)

167472[/snapback]

Sounds plausible...I assume the other W's will also be around through '09 as well (Impala and Monte Carlo)..

[evok]

See Evok's comment here - http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...97entry154097

167523[/snapback]

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet...=74&docid=20772

The Flint, Mich., North 3800 engine facility ("Factory 36") will cease production in 2008.

[Paolino]

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet...=74&docid=20772

The Flint, Mich., North 3800 engine facility ("Factory 36") will cease production in 2008.

167545[/snapback]

Okay, it'll cease production in 2008--which means we'll have the 3800 through until at leastMY 2008. Depending on when it stops in 2008, that would make sense, as if it stops in late 2008, we'll have 2009 LaCrosse and GP's with the 3800, and MY2010 is the new LaCrosse.

[VenSeattle]

Okay, it'll cease production in 2008--which means we'll have the 3800 through until at leastMY 2008.  Depending on when it stops in 2008, that would make sense, as if it stops in late 2008, we'll have 2009 LaCrosse and GP's with the 3800, and MY2010 is the new LaCrosse.

167555[/snapback]

Yeah... IIRC the MY 2009 W-platform vehicles will be built in 2008. Oshawa closes to be revamped for Zeta at the end of 2008... correct?

[trinacriabob]

Okay, it'll cease production in 2008--which means we'll have the 3800 through until at leastMY 2008.  Depending on when it stops in 2008, that would make sense, as if it stops in late 2008, we'll have 2009 LaCrosse and GP's with the 3800, and MY2010 is the new LaCrosse.

167555[/snapback]

Good call. The timing is unclear. 2008 cars run from Fall 2007 through Summer 2008. If Oshawa shuts down for summer 2008 retooling, the 3800 won't make it into the 2009 LaCrosse, which is odd. Would they swap into 3500, 3.6 or 3900 for just one remaining model year on the platform? That would seem odd.

I read the article/post. It doesn't specify when in 2008.

Also, to moltar's post, after the current enhancement, Impala and MC should just plow along with the usual 3.5 and 3.9 engines.

[thegriffon]

You're not getting it - Oshawa shuts down just after production of the 3800 ceases, so no problem deciding on replacement V6 for the GP or LaCrosse - there will just be a brief interlude before the NG LaCrosse arrives without the 3800. As for the GP, well we'll see if GM goes ahead with an indirect replacment - one which is bigger and actually sells for more than a V6 G6.

[Drew Dowdell]

The quickest and easiest solution would be for GM to put the HF 2.8 in the Lacross as the base engine. It is a drop in replacement for the 3.6HF already in there. No other modifications would be needed.

[ToniCipriani]

The quickest and easiest solution would be for GM to put the HF 2.8 in the Lacross as the base engine.  It is a drop in replacement for the 3.6HF already in there. No other modifications would be needed.

167622[/snapback]

But I don't think the 2.8L is currently used in FWD vehicles, minus the Saab.

[OshKoshBerJosh]

The quickest and easiest solution would be for GM to put the HF 2.8 in the Lacross as the base engine.  It is a drop in replacement for the 3.6HF already in there. No other modifications would be needed.

167622[/snapback]

Actually, the easiest thing would be to just make the 3.6 standard on the LaCrosse. The real question is what Buick will use for a base engine in the Lucerne.

Unfortunately, if what Griffonm said is true about a break in LaCrosse production between the generations, than Buick sales will take a big hit that year.

[Drew Dowdell]

But I don't think the 2.8L is currently used in FWD vehicles, minus the Saab.

167654[/snapback]

The 2.8 is in the 9-3 and the CTS. 1 FWD and 1 RWD.

[aaaantoine]

Out with the 3800. In with the 3900 w/ AFM.

Really, I don't see why that would be a problem...

[ehaase]

The real question is what Buick will use for a base engine in the Lucerne.

167844[/snapback]

Either stockpile enough 3800's or make the Northstar standard for a year or two until the Zeta Lucerne debuts.

[ehaase]

Out with the 3800.  In with the 3900 w/ AFM.

167849[/snapback]

I haven't heard of many examples of GM's 60 degree V6 family lasting over 200,000 miles as I have of the 3800, but I could be wrong.

[The O.C.]

Read my post at the beginning of the thread.  I'm asking about the production schedule, not for you to dog the engine.  The pro and con anti-3800 tread gets awfully long.  Let it rest.

167181[/snapback]

Something tells me that '07 was to be the last year for the 3800 because it can't meet the new emissions requirements that come about in 2008.

That's why GM developed the "new" 3900 V6 in the first place....or so I'm told....as a replacement for the "old" 3800.

I would venture a guess that the 3900 becomes the LaCrosse and Grand Prix base engine. It's already certified for use in the W-body thanks to the Impala/MC.

I don't know about Lucerne.....or what would replace it there.....maybe the 3.6L?

[Drew Dowdell]

The 3800 is ULEV. If the 3800 can't meet the emission regs, then there are a *lot* of other engines out there that won't either.

[Paolino]

Out with the 3800.  In with the 3900 w/ AFM.

Really, I don't see why that would be a problem...

167849[/snapback]

Because then what's the reason to opt for the 3.6L? The power would be SO close.

The 3800 is ULEV.  If the 3800 can't meet the emission regs, then there are a *lot* of other engines out there that won't either.

167902[/snapback]

The 3800 Series III is SULEV.

In 2005, General Motors' 3800 Series III V6 engines became the industry's first gasoline V6s to carry the SULEV rating and can be found the Pontiac Grand Prix and Buick LaCrosse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SULEV

[Drew Dowdell]

The 3800 Series III is SULEV.

In 2005, General Motors' 3800 Series III V6 engines became the industry's first gasoline V6s to carry the SULEV rating and can be found the Pontiac Grand Prix and Buick LaCrosse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SULEV

167913[/snapback]

my point stands.

[thegriffon]

Actually, the easiest thing would be to just make the 3.6 standard on the LaCrosse.  The real question is what Buick will use for a base engine in the Lucerne.

Unfortunately, if what Griffonm said is true about a break in LaCrosse production between the generations, than Buick sales will take a big hit that year.

167844[/snapback]

Unfortunately that's normal for GM anyway, but it shouldn't be a big gap. You'll hear more when they're ready to announce investment for future LaCrosse production.

[regfootball]

i diverted the boat carrying the 3800's to the middle east. they should likely be all gone by the end of the week.

[Robert Hall]

The easiest answer is to assume they will be around for the near future and leave it at that.. what's it matter, anyway? GM has other OHV V6s..(3.1 and 3.9).

[Imaj]

Read my post at the beginning of the thread.  I'm asking about the production schedule, not for you to dog the engine.  The pro and con anti-3800 tread gets awfully long.  Let it rest.

167181[/snapback]

When did I dog the engine?

I'm just wondering why are they keeping it, it makes sense that it should of been replaced by the 3.9 HVV6 since all of them are OHV and relatively cheap and most of all reliable or at least should be. So my guess is either they are stuck with some UAW contract to keep the 3800 plant running or they have huge inventories of them so they'll stick around for some while.

I'm not for or against the 3800, I'd love to get a Grand Prix with the SC 3800.

[MyerShift]

If GM didn't drop 3800, then here is my amusement:

Forever! GM will probably add two more valves per cylinder, with variable valve timing and Active Fuel Management to further improve "drivability" to result in the first 3.8L 24V VVT OHV AFM V6 .

Hehe. But, for Buick, I feel they should use the 2.8 for the base engine in the LaCrosse/Allure and the 3.6 for the base in the Lucerne. Just add 6-speed auomatic, and voila, updated!

[ToniCipriani]

The easiest answer is to assume they will be around for the near future and leave it at that..  what's it matter, anyway?  GM has other OHV V6s..(3.1 and 3.9).

167994[/snapback]

3.1?? I thought the last car to use the 3.1L was the Century...

You mean 3.5 right?

[91z4me]

You're not getting it - Oshawa shuts down just after production of the 3800 ceases, so no problem deciding on replacement V6 for the GP or LaCrosse - there will just be a brief interlude before the NG LaCrosse arrives without the 3800. As for the GP, well we'll see if GM goes ahead with an indirect replacment - one which is bigger and actually sells for more than a V6 G6.

167620[/snapback]

Others have indicated that a reskin is planned for the W-body GP about the same time as Lacrosse production break. Could they be moving over to the Impala, MC(which may not be around longer) plant while the other is re-tooled for Zeta? Impala could move over to the new Zeta plant while 3 or so years of continued W-body Lacrosse and GP production continues at the old Impala plant. When the W-body does finally die the other plant could be idled or retooled for Zeta to increase its volume, Buick and Pontiac RWDs could come online at that time (2012 ish).

We know the NG Malibu is larger and is supposed to take over a lot of Impala's volume and it is planned for what 08 MY. Seems like the stars may have aligned just right for this senario, though I am sure that others are possible.

[Newbiewar]

well that motor is good for 200k miles... so... 200k miles or 12k/yr whichever comes first... another 16 years?

[Robert Hall]

3.1?? I thought the last car to use the 3.1L was the Century...

You mean 3.5 right?

168166[/snapback]

Whatever.. those rental car engines all seem the same to me..

[ponchoman49]

I would expect the 3800 to remain the base engine in MY 2008 Lucerne, LaCrosse and Grand Prix. After that any remaining vehicles that used this engine will get stock piled 3800's for a brief hiatus until the new Zetas come online as early 2010 models. I would put money on this! The plant that makes the 3800's will cease sometime during 2008 which means that it would easy for GM to stockpile a certain number of these engines for 2009 models until 2010's arrive in early 2009. It's anybodys guess what will happen after this point.

[razoredge]

I now own a car with the 3900 and have had cars with all versions of the 90* Buick engines. This is my advice to GM.

Let these current V6 engines run their run and forget them. Concentrate on improveing performance/economy & production of Holdens V6 while they are designing the ultimate DOHC VVT/DOD/VIR/DI V8 engine family. Superior to N* and available from 3.5 - 4.5 or even 5 litres........then forget the V6 and never look back.

THis 60* 3900's idle is no smoother than the 90* 38's I have run. In fact I think its ruffer. Also while it seems faster than a NA 38, I feel for conventional driving the low grunt of the 38's is more usuable. The 3900 certainly holds no candle to the SC3800 but it does not require the 92+ octane fuel to be happy. The G6 GT coupe we tested with the 3.5 left me totally unimpressed with the engine.......by 3800 standards.

Why keep fighting this unnatural balance of the V6 ? With DOD you would have a V6 in unstrained driving conditions anyhow combined with the benefits of the smoothness of the V8.

Im serious !

[trinacriabob]

I haven't heard of many examples of GM's 60 degree V6 family lasting over 200,000 miles as I have of the 3800, but I could be wrong.

167876[/snapback]

Thank you. And that's why I bring up the thread/question.

Some 60 degree V6s do last over 200,000 miles.

For 3800s, it would be a head scratcher if they were to last any less.

[trinacriabob]

I would expect the 3800 to remain the base engine in MY 2008 Lucerne, LaCrosse and Grand Prix. After that any remaining vehicles that used this engine will get stock piled 3800's for a brief hiatus until the new Zetas come online as early 2010 models. I would put money on this! The plant that makes the 3800's will cease sometime during 2008

168489[/snapback]

Good...and that's what I was concerned about. I would love to be able to defer purchasing until MY 2008 when LaX gets the new grille people have posted photo/links of...it would help the car tremendously. So, a "face-lifted" LaX and the 3800 together unless I would pick another W-body (depending on what they look like in the same MY).

[The O.C.]

The 3800 is ULEV.  If the 3800 can't meet the emission regs, then there are a *lot* of other engines out there that won't either.

167902[/snapback]

Not the same thing....

[evok]

I am not aware of any new EPA regulations on gas powered engines becoming effective over the next few year including those from CARB.

I did a quick net search and came up empty.

The only new regs I believe are those for diesel fuel with low sulfur content in 08. That would require a double check also.

[trinacriabob]

I am not aware of any new EPA regulations on gas powered engines becoming effective over the next few year including those from CARB.

I did a quick net search and came up empty.

The only new regs I believe are those for diesel fuel with low sulfur content in 08. That would require a double check also.

168719[/snapback]

So does my post 2 above yours hold water? I'm essentially looking to snag a Series III 3800 with a nice wrapper around it...that's why I'd like to see a LaCrosse with a grille similar to the one shown for the Super which is supposedly going to make its way in a more muted fashion onto the base model(s). That way I could get both the engine and a car with a silhouette I like.

[NeonLX]

Why keep fighting this unnatural balance of the V6 ? With DOD you would have a V6 in unstrained driving conditions anyhow  combined with the benefits of the smoothness of the V8.

168516[/snapback]

I may be off my rocker here, but isn't a 60-degree V6 "balanced"?

One thing I gotta give Mopar credit for--the latest versions of their 3.3L/3.8L minivan engines (60-degree) are darned smooth. And Honda's 3.5L V6 (as used in the Vue) is silky as well.*

Last 3800 I drove was circa 2003 (LeSabre). It was so smooth and quiet that it was almost undetectable (is that a word?).

----------------

*I don't usually like to use the "H" word in a positive way; I'll go suck on a bar of soap now.