....

[Chris_Doane]

...

Edited October 15, 2006 by CD/BP

[BigPontiac]

Will be interesting to see what he has to say on CNBC at 4pm today...

[toesuf94]

My hope is that Nissan and Renault say "no Thanks ' and leave - forever. This is a bad bad thing for GM - look at the cars Nissan and Renault offer: Does anyone see what GM would get out of this other than proof that the Cobalt is not as bad as everything those two companies offer? Renault has been unable to even offer a car in the USA for what? 23+ years? And Nissan: Altima and the cars spawned off that platform, and the Maxima, which is not that great of a car from what I am told by the people who mistakenly bought them. Renault and Nissan are both in downward spirals in the respective markets and here...so what would GM gain from a buy-in? I can see NOTHING...enlighten me.

[KillFort]

“If the management on both sides aren’t enthused and don’t have clear alignment on expectations, that’s not a prescription for successful performance,” Wagoner said. "It’s important as we sit down to get a clear understanding of Renault-Nissan’s vision and they get a clear understanding of our vision."

Sounds like Wagoner's way of saying I do not think so but I'll play nice for now.

[jbartley]

translation:

Ghosn: "GIMME GIMME NEW TOY!"

Wagoner: "but you just broke your last one! (nissan)

Ghosn: "GIMME GIMME NEW TOY (GM)"

Edited July 13, 2006 by jbartley

[jbartley]

Wagoner is smart, he figures the longer he draws this out, the more pissed of kerkorian going to be (after all how much more time does a 90yr old have?), and the more bad sales figures nissan is going to have to release.

By x-mas, Ghosn will be in deep trouble, kerkorian will fire off some damaging comments, and Wagoner will sail thru this saying "well it's apparent we are in a much better situation than Nissan, and don't require access to their resources to complete out turnaround" (off the record he will add "Can't touch this!)

Edited July 13, 2006 by jbartley

[titan]

Wagoner is smart, he figures the longer he draws this out, the more pissed of kerkorian going to be (after all how much more time does a 90yr old have?), and the more bad sales figures nissan is going to have to release.

By x-mas, Ghosn will be in deep trouble, kerkorian will fire off some damaging comments, and Wagoner will sail thru this saying "well it's apparent we are in a much better situation than Nissan, and don't require access to their resources to complete out turnaround" (off the record he will add "Can't touch this!)

166422[/snapback]

Nissan's lag in sales is largely due to the cyclical nature of the business. They've got alot of product that's showing its age, but there'a about to be yet another slew of new or refreshed products. We all know there's nothing better than new product. Within' the next few months, the new Altima, Sentra, Maxima, and Versa will be introduced. Not to mention they finally fixed the Quest's interior. It's laughable to think that Nissan's sales slump will be long term. Additionally, it's laughable to think that GM needs "help" from any alliance to get "fixed."

[SoCalCTS]

GM should allow Renault to buy a stake in GM only if Renault allows GM to buy a controlling stake in Nissan.

[Dragon]

translation:

Ghosn: "GIMME GIMME NEW TOY!"

Wagoner: "but you just broke your last one! (nissan)

Ghosn: "GIMME GIMME NEW TOY (GM)"

166420[/snapback]

broke?

a little slump is far from broke.

[titan]

GM should allow Renault to buy a stake in GM only if Renault allows GM to buy a controlling stake in Nissan.

166473[/snapback]

That would be ideal, but Ghosn wouldn't allow it. Nissan would shoot it down... Nissan own's a piece of Renault, in addition to Renault owning a piece of Nissan.

[Ghost Dog]

Seemed to me Ghosn is more interested in GM's Business in China,India,and Russia.

I wonder what's really going on? Merger? Nah. Partnership? Nah. Cash for Control of GM's India-China ops? Hmm .

[jbartley]

broke? 

a little slump is far from broke.

166478[/snapback]

a little slump? time will tell.

can't say their truck line was stellar. and while their midsize sedans are due for refresh, we'll see how the general public responds to a "lightly touched up" products.

[Member55]

GM should allow Renault to buy a stake in GM only if Renault allows GM to buy a controlling stake in Nissan.

166473[/snapback]

And GM would pay for that with what?

[Newbiewar]

And GM would pay for that with what?

166511[/snapback]

GM has money... perhaps not the most in the world, but enough...

[Drew Dowdell]

The new Altima is going to turn their slump around?

You can barely tell the difference between the old one and the new one.

The Sentra is nice, but nothing to pin hopes on. Certainly not enough to get people to switch from their Corollas and Civics.

Maxima's sales have dropped through the floor.

[Member55]

GM has money... perhaps not the most in the world, but enough...

166536[/snapback]

GM doesn't have enough money to buy a majority stake in any major car manufacturer. Nissan is worth more than GM and Renault combined.

[SimonDavid]

Crazy idea -

Maybe Nissan wants to buy a brand or two?

[jbartley]

The new Altima is going to turn their slump around?

You can barely tell the difference between the old one and the new one.

The Sentra is nice, but nothing to pin hopes on.  Certainly not enough to get people to switch from their Corollas and Civics.

Maxima's sales have dropped through the floor.

166586[/snapback]

EXACTLY! thank-you, someone i can agree with!

[Drew Dowdell]

EXACTLY! thank-you, someone i can agree with!

166711[/snapback]

It occured to me this morning that the recent explorer upgrade looks more significant than the Altima refresh.... simply in appearance.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Seemed to me Ghosn is more interested in GM's Business in China,India,and Russia.

  I wonder what's really going on? Merger? Nah. Partnership? Nah. Cash for Control of GM's India-China ops? Hmm .

166496[/snapback]

clearly the long term benefits of any merger/aliance will benefit nissan/renault.

ghosn not interested in anything less than a full merger with all the perks. so he says, for now. i dont doubt something good can come from this but like i read somewhere before gm isnt looking for a white knight to save them. especially if theyre going to have to give him the horse.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[MyerShift]

Indeed.

I fail to see any benefit of this potential merger/alliance/takeover, whatever you want to call it.

GM is decreasing the amount of time it takes to get product to market, and the new product seems vastly improved over the old (Cavalier vs. Cobalt, LeSabre vs. Lucerne, etc).

With quality ratings besting some of those from the vaunted Japanese brands of Honda and Toyota, improved and inspired designs, I see GM firmly on the road to recovery.

All that's left to do is eliminate health care costs (or decrease them) and benefits.

I do not see why a company should support retired employees that are no longer useful to the company... and wait for Jerk... sorry, Kerkorian to wither away.

[Cory Wolfe]

Wow...

Well, I only see rises for Nissan in the future. Ghosn did turn the brand around from what is was. You remeber the ooold Altima, Sentra, Maxima, and Quest? Yeah.

Anyways, for those saying the new Altima looks less renovated than the Explorer needs to get their eyes checked. Yes, indeedy. Alrighty then? I'll pay for whatever you need to be cured or your legal blindless... just please do not deny it and try to make proper judgements anymore. It's hurting you more than it is us. We're the ones laughing.

[capriceman]

GM doesn't have enough money to buy a majority stake in any major car manufacturer. Nissan is worth more than GM and Renault combined.

166593[/snapback]

What are you smoking? GM still has alot of money. But to buy a majority stake in nissian would be the must risky move ever for them since it would take alot of money from them. And if i can remeber GM is still worth over 20 billion or somthing. Did you think they were in the Red?

[SimonDavid]

It may be that Ghosn is simply looking for US production capacity.

GM is planning to shutter quite a few plants over the next few years. Selling them (and their already trained workforce) to Nissan instead could save alot of money for both companies.

[ellives]

GM doesn't have enough money to buy a majority stake in any major car manufacturer. Nissan is worth more than GM and Renault combined.

166593[/snapback]

What are you smoking? GM still has alot of money. But to buy a majority stake in nissian would be the must risky move ever for them since it would take alot of money from them. And if i can remeber GM is still worth over 20 billion or somthing. Did you think they were in the Red?

167632[/snapback]

He is mistakenly confusing market value with assets. People like him forget the main reasons why GM's market cap. is so low: Poor product and legacy costs. They certainly have the capability to fix the product problem - it's clearly underway now. In 2007 they'll fix the legacy problem too and they market cap. will quadruple if not more. Kirk is hoping to do something before then. I'm hoping he goes away by then.

[thegriffon]

Crazy idea -

Maybe Nissan wants to buy a brand or two?

166687[/snapback]

It's hard to see how Nissan could make better value from any of GM's brands than GM does at the moment. That said, despite the different market dynamics there is room for multiple brands in most major markets.

In the US

1. Entry level (e.g. Chevrolet, Kia, Hyundai, Ford)

2. Mainstream (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Saturn, VW)

3. Premium (Hummer, GMC, fwd Lexus)

4. Luxury (BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo, rwd Lexus, Maserati etc.)

5. Upper Luxury (Bentley)

6. Super Luxury (Rolls-Royce, Maybach)

7. Premium Sports Car (Porsche, Maserati)

8 Supercar (Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin etc.)

GM's problem is it's brands don't reach their pricing potential - Pontiac should be mainstream, but is priced closer to entry level, Buick should be premium but is priced at the bottom of the mainstream segment, Cadillac shoiuld be Luxury, even upper-luxury, but has fallen into the premium segment.

In Europe the segments are compressed - the Luxury brands are priced very close to the Mainstream, and Mainstream are always trying to break into the lower end of the Luxury segment. Thus VW finds it hard to position all of its brands.

1. Entry level (Suzuki, Chevrolet, Hyundai, Kia, Perodua, Proton, Skoda, Dacia)

2. Mainstream (Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Opel, VW, Seat, Fiat, Toyota, Honda etc.)

3. Luxury (BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo, Saab, Lancia, Alfa etc.)

and so on

In Australia the pricing of Luxury entries is so high that there are a wider range of prremium brands (mainly European and Japanese Mainstream brands - VW, Citroen, Peugeot, Mazda and Subaru), plus a lower tier of Luxury brands beneath the big two Germans - Saab, Volvo, Audi, Lexus.

While Nissan can fill part of its product gap by expanding Infiniti around the globe, Renault is desperate for a credible Luxury entry after the French government deliberatey killed off the French luxury brands (damned socialists). The company has a premium sports car brand in Alpine, but the brand is not appreciated, reduced to building low-volume Renault special projects.

There are brands with great potential still out there, as BMW has proven with Mini. The Chinese will try again with MG (but without new products). Jensen holds potential but is historically tied to Chrysler and would compete with Mercedes (in their own peculiar niche). Bristol has as much potential as a competitor for Bentley and could fill the gap between BMW and Rolls nicely with BMW-Bristols. Hello? Lagonda and Daimler remain under-appreciated by Ford, who have shown, as Fiat has long known, that a well-run super-luxury operation can work well within a big manufacturer, even when money is tight at the parent. Duesenberg, well, no more needs to be said, although not worth what is being asked for it, given the investment required.

[thegriffon]

He is mistakenly confusing market value with assets. People like him forget the main reasons why GM's market cap. is so low: Poor product and legacy costs. They certainly have the capability to fix the product problem - it's clearly underway now. In 2007 they'll fix the legacy problem too and they market cap. will quadruple if not more. Kirk is hoping to do something before then. I'm hoping he goes away by then.

168181[/snapback]

Don't forget debt (more than just the legacy costs although that's an inordinate part of it). Enterprise value is calculated as market cap + debt. Ideally the market cap is much higher than the shareholder equity (=Assets - debt), as investors value potential growth. If it's less than the shareholder equity then you have a potential target for break up, especially if cash and securities make up a large portion of the assets.

[ellives]

Don't forget debt (more than just the legacy costs although that's an inordinate part of it). Enterprise value is calculated as market cap + debt. Ideally the market cap is much higher than the shareholder equity (=Assets - debt), as investors value potential growth. If it's less than the shareholder equity then you have a potential target for break up, especially if cash and securities make up a large portion of the assets.

168210[/snapback]

This is why having some debt is a good thing. Otherwise people like Kirk would be striking every time a company stumbled. I have real disdain for people who make money without actually building anything. Ya think?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM doesn't have enough money to buy a majority stake in any major car manufacturer. Nissan is worth more than GM and Renault combined.

166593[/snapback]

Naturally! Nissan is "Japanese"

P.S. And yes, the new Altima does look LESS redesigned than the new Explorer. Both are pretty lame, but at least Ford changed the overall styling of the vehicle.

[ellives]

The one advantage Ghosn has over Wagoner has nothing to do with being with Ghosn and has everything to do with being an outsider. GM needs to hack and slash and Wagoner will be loathe to do it to people he's known for decades. Ghosn has no such allegiances.

This all being said, anyone who believes this little publicity stunt around the idea of an alliance between Nissan, Renault and GM is just a ploy to get Wagoner out. No relationship of this type is ever publicized before the deal is done.

[Variance]

P.S. And yes, the new Altima does look LESS redesigned than the new Explorer. Both are pretty lame, but at least Ford changed the overall styling of the vehicle.

168276[/snapback]

Can't say I agree with ya there...

The differences are even more apparent in real life.

It's not 100% changed but you wouldn't assume it was a minor refresh.

[Member55]

He is mistakenly confusing market value with assets. People like him forget the main reasons why GM's market cap. is so low: Poor product and legacy costs. They certainly have the capability to fix the product problem - it's clearly underway now. In 2007 they'll fix the legacy problem too and they market cap. will quadruple if not more. Kirk is hoping to do something before then. I'm hoping he goes away by then.

168181[/snapback]

With their current market value and cash reserves they are not in the position to take over any major car manufacturer. At the same time GM could be easily overtaken if somebody would be stupid enough to attempt.

[Member55]

What are you smoking? GM still has alot of money. But to buy a majority stake in nissian would be the must risky move ever for them since it would take alot of money from them. And if i can remeber GM is still worth over 20 billion or somthing. Did you think they were in the Red?

167632[/snapback]

If you believe that GM could even attempt to buy a majority stake in Nissan at this time than the stuff you smoke is even stronger than my stuff.