What is keeping GM behind?

[Cremazie]

I wonder what people feel what GM lacks most, is it powertrain, fit/finish, comfort features or looks(inside and out). I feel personally that currently they are lacking in plain looks, they are well engineered but the looks of the new stuff is lame.. most still look cheap or give me the feeling that I am in something old!

[Cory Wolfe]

Um... All of the above.

[LosAngeles]

It's packaging a car right IMO. I could easily give two craps about front-drive, small engine, or the looks, if a decent tranny was thrown in a lot of these cars. Can a V-6 get a stick, or at least a shiftable auto? Does it have to be a pedestrian conventional auto ALL the time? decent looking and decent sized wheels (and wheel covers for the steelies) would be grand too. Those two things go a long way....

[bobo]

Overall refinement is still lacking.

[MyerShift]

Powertrain, fit/finish/quality of materials, and appearance. Too old-fashioned, too cheap looking, too boring or grotesquely ugly.

[Flybrian]

Original style seems to be sorely lacking in certain new models.

[Newbiewar]

people judge first on appearance, then by quality (atleast most) if something is "God Aweful" like my father puts is, then it probably wont get a majority rule, if something is OMG gotta have this car it might... some people buy cars that dont even run due to styling (classics or old cars)

[balthazar]

Primarily: perception. I see no great gaps in the suggested reasons up top.

[frogger]

Just a little less refined, whether its the steering feel, the engine smoothness, or chasis and suspension.

[Cremazie]

Just a little less refined, whether its the steering feel, the engine smoothness, or chasis and suspension.

[post="12155"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I guess that is really why most models feel like older cars.. whatever it is they are still not up to par with rivals!

[z28luvr01]

Primarily: perception.
I see no great gaps in the suggested reasons up top.

[post="12149"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm with you, balthy. In my albeit limited time riding in and driving supposedly superior imported competition, I'm usually left asking myself "What's the big deal? Is this really that much better than a GM?"

However, GM has to actively work at changing that perception. Superior product obviously is the key, and innovative product-based marketing plays a close second. They need to be the ones setting the bar on all fronts.

[regfootball]

how much time do we have?

[Dsuupr]

I don't know if GM is really lacking that far behind on their newer products. Back in the day GM was the innovator, now they are the ones to rip. Is the new civics interior really that great? If that was the Cobalt's interior, GM would have been nailed to the wall for it. What's lacking is the press and the public to start recognizing GM for it's positive as well as it's negative traits, not just their negative traits. GM does need to do more stand out products, and jump on the band wagon of being first again (which they sort of have with the Solstice & Sky). By not doing a 300, or . . . they don't give people the opportunity to go WOW! Without the WOW product (Solstice) you don't sell the other products (like the G6).

[bowtie_dude]

interior design and materials are still lacking. A 2006 Cadillac DTS interior is still worlds behind an Acura TSX interior. and the TSX has been out for years, now.

[Drew Dowdell]

Bias expectations against GM. Stupid coments about interior materials and how soft they are. It's not a pillow people, it's a door panel. Anyone remember when cars had machined stainless steel <the real stuff> on their dashboard? Soft touch my ass. ;-) Stupid comments about how a 4-speed auto is not as smooth as a 7 speed, 6 speed or 5 speed. Accord 5 speed autos have NEVER been smoother then the GM 4speed. 98% of the people who aren't members of this website probably don't know how many gears are in their automatic. Stupid comments about OHC being better then OHV because it's newer technology. Sure, it's newer technology, by about 10 years. OHC has been around since the mid 1920s at least. GM makes some of the finest OHV engines out there. People complained when GM shoehorned the pushrod corvette engine into the CTS-v. Yelled that it should have been a northstar. Fine, put a northstar in... and LOSE AT LEAST 80 HP!! Would people have complained if they put a Hemi in there? It's just kneejerk venom towards any OHV GM engine. The fucking footbrake. How many times has the CTS been dinged for having a foot activated parking break? How many people here know what kind of parking break the G35 Coupe w/auto has? I know... I sat in one today. I've never heard of C&D bashing Infinity for it. The fact that every automotive journalist does a test of a car only in the mindset of an automotive performance enthusiast. People here are guilty of it also. The only good car is the BMW 5-series. Period, that's it. That is the summery of every automotive review you'll EVER READ! I have for years wanted to start an automotive magazine that reviews cars based on the manufacturers intended purpose. Who in their right mind puts a non-GNX Buick through a slalom expecting it to handle like a corvette? Where is the DTS Drag Racing Federation of America that C&D keeps reviewing FWD dragsters for? They'll ding the DTS for having soft cushy seats....but it's SUPPOSED to be a soft cushy car! It's the homoganizing of the car industry. A few editors at large magazines have decided that BMW is the only manufacturer to make a car worth anything. The market is reponding to the percived quality and status. Then the competiors try and emulate the leader. So in the end we'll all be driving nearly identical cars with different badges on the fender. Congradulations. Now, my mother, who would have loved a Riviera or god willing an Eldorado because they were good looking <to her> and front wheel drive can't buy one.

[LosAngeles]

It's not BMW's fault GM isn't building a Riviera or Eldorado. GM seems really convinced that an SUV or four-door sedan is supposed to be in every garage. Buick and Caddy's foreign competitors all pack a four-place two-door. They could easily make one, just choose not to.

[HarleyEarl]

Oldsmoboi, I have to agree with you. I hate what is happening to cars, they are becoming homogenized. There are so few unique characteristics anymore. I don't want to drive a car that is perfect. Everyone seems to want purely refined cars, or white bread if you will.

[HarleyEarl]

The American car has lost so much of it's uniqueness already. I don't want American clones of German and Japanese cars. I don't want to drive a Chevy Impala Accord.

[turbo200]

REPUTATION. Caused by GMs own ineptitude over the years. They have the strongest dealer network in the country. They have the most loyal consumers in the marketplace. They have had 50% controlling share of the marketplace. At some point in time GM must accept responsibility for turning customers away with consistently underperforming and shoddy cars. In current times overall refinement is still lacking. Reputation, however, will continue to hinder GM because they have all these customers that explored the limitless posibilities the world has to offer and decided they were "never gonna go back". GM has to produce showstopping vehicles that offer nothing but the best combination of the most desirable design, powertrains, sophistication, and class in order to get people looking who otherwise wouldn't. The current Impala ain't gonna do that. It will help stop some of the erosion because it's an otherwise good car. But Mr. and Mrs. Smith going to get the Accord no matter what because they've already owned three that have been perfect won't look twice. Solve that GM.

[Drew Dowdell]

It's not BMW's fault GM isn't building a Riviera or Eldorado.  GM seems really convinced that an SUV or four-door sedan is supposed to be in every garage.  Buick and Caddy's foreign competitors all pack a four-place two-door.  They could easily make one, just choose not to.

[post="12290"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Remember the first rule of Automotive Journalism. If it isn't a BMW, automatically deduct 10 points. Extra 5 points deducted if it's a GM and an additional two if it's a Buick, Olds or Pontiac.

Rule 2. If it is front wheel drive, no matter how well it handles or doesn't have torque steer, automatically deduct 20 points.

Rule 3. Eight point deduction for a non-alfanumaric name.

[HarleyEarl]

I have owned several GM cars, too many to count and Japanese....and the GM cars haven't been any where near shoddy...they all performed excellent...perfectly reliable, very good interiors. The heavy handed criticism of GM has gotten old. Much overstatement by the press and critics in general.

[pow]

Refinement and attention to detail

[balthazar]

Problem is, if you've experienced vintage American autos, the "attention to detail" in modern foreign makes cannot compare, so for us, it all comes off as overblown hot air. Unfortunately, there's not enough of 'us' to turn around current erroneous perceptions.

[pow]

Problem is, if you've experienced vintage American autos, the "attention to detail" in modern foreign makes cannot compare, so for us, it all comes off as overblown hot air. Unfortunately, there's not enough of 'us' to turn around current erroneous perceptions.

[post="12384"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I think we're talking about the GM of now.

[balthazar]

I know, but the point is: the perception difference & the actual difference today is very small to nil in most areas. Also- 'refinement' & 'ATD' are widely interpretable and it still pales (talking ATD here) to vintage vehicles.

[pow]

I know, but the point is: the perception difference & the actual difference today is very small to nil in most areas. Also- 'refinement' & 'ATD' are widely interpretable and it still pales (talking ATD here) to vintage vehicles.

[post="12392"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I guess that's where we disagree. The attention to detail and refinement gap is still very large in my eyes. It's a gap big enough to turn me away from most GM products. Edited September 11, 2005 by empowah

[I hope GMRULES again]

#1 thing keeping them behind is reputation. #2 is that when they make a mistake they don't own up.#3 is their boring interiors.

[balthazar]

I guess that's where we disagree. The attention to detail and refinement gap is still very large in my eyes. It's a gap big enough to turn me away from most GM products.

Right: we disagree. And the overhype on foriegn makes is enough to turn me away from all imports.

[razoredge]

Good posts, Balthazar, Harley and especially Oldsmoboi. I will ignore all the "reasons" the finiky, so refined, anti GM posters that come here to degrade products becasue that is how I see them, they will always cry, complain and degrade, it is their life. Another - Whats wrong with GM and or all American auto manufacturers is "gas crisis" of 1973. Followed by the worst styling years since "Bedrock". Combined with still manufacturing large heavy cars, poor mileage, lots of electrical/computor problems and I guess some poor reliabliity of various items. Now Im still back in the 70's - earliey 80's, mind you. This is when the now new car buyers were the lower income, economy minded used car buyers that found reliablity and fuel economy in Japanese cars. Things have just followed the tone that those times set way back then. Thats where the perception got molded. This is my conclusion from what Ive observed over the decades. As well as some of the stuff that Oldsmoboi stated. All this does not help. The rest of you are just blowing hot air, though I believe styling has been a problem in some models since 90's but then I could say that of many Asian cars too. Same with all you interior freaks, if it doesnt look like a honda or toyota interior it sucks and if it does look like a toyota or honda interior it sucks - OK, we got that one down so lets just stop looking at interiors because the whole interior topic has frankly sucked. Then on a final note I would like to bring attention to the fact that GM is still the worlds largest manufacturer of automobiles and still has sales far exceding what it had when it was at "50%" market share. There is more cars to choose from so this "market share" percentage thing has dropped yet sales are higher. So frankly I believe that this "marker share" is also more hot air and hype and propaganda for the media and yup yup yup yup yup yup yuppies to dramatize. Plus it gives the corporate leaders at GM a tool of distraction, to make share holders and traders grab on to so they ignore that the problem with profits is because the corporate leaders are overpaid, not that sales are high. Lots of hype and smoke screens so eventually all manufacturing operations are off shore, slow but sure, that will tone down the uproar than if they pulled everything at once.

[Cremazie]

Whats wrong with GM and or all American auto manufacturers is "gas crisis" of 1973. Followed by the worst styling years since "Bedrock". Combined with still manufacturing large heavy cars, poor mileage, lots of electrical/computor problems and I guess some poor reliabliity of various items. Now Im still back in the 70's - earliey 80's, mind you. This is when the now new car buyers were the lower income, economy minded used car buyers that found reliablity and fuel economy in Japanese cars. Things have just followed the tone that those times set way back then. Thats where the perception got molded

That was indeed the beginning of the hell years, before that point they were building the best cars on earth, and still were during the hell years, the fact that GM couldn't get the compact cars down to a science quick enough. The Sub compact was the Chevette and anyone who has owned one says they were one hell of a car. (not much power, not much room, long lifetime and lots of utility)

The rest of you are just blowing hot air, though I believe styling has been a problem in some models since 90's but then I could say that of many Asian cars too. Same with all you interior freaks, if it doesnt look like a honda or toyota interior it sucks and if it does look like a toyota or honda interior it sucks - OK, we got that one down so lets just stop looking at interiors because the whole interior topic has frankly sucked.

If anyone has sat in a Lacrosse they would tell you that the interior is great, if you sat in a G6 you would say it lacks. If you sat in a Accord you would say it was "nice", if you sat in a Ridgeline you would say "WTF". All car companies build good and bad interiors. I am a GM fan and I just want GM to be the best all the time. That why most of us critisize, not because we hate GM, hell this is a GM site! Edited September 11, 2005 by Cremazie

[LosAngeles]

Am I the only person here who LIKES (the look of) the G6's interior?

[Snate]

I think the G6 has a great interior. I'm going to go with the perception difference as the main thing. Every manufacturer makes good cars and bad cars. There are just alot of people out there especially in the media who can't come to terms with a japanese car that is a dud or an american car that is excellent.

[Cory Wolfe]

LA, if you have to ask, yes. :P

Since "all of the above" was a vague answer and the fact I'm extremely bored right now, I'm going to go into detail.

First off, yes, perception is a big one. People today can't seem to be open-minded. They have strong biases and don't believe anything that goes against that. And this exists on both sides... import and domestic fans. GM is lacking.

Second, interiors. Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass how the materials feel. Only obsessed Californians would. If it looks good is what really matters. You want the dash to atleast look high-quality. GM still lacks here... regardless of the feel. And to cater to the biased retards, you have to bring the feel too. Oh, how it must feel to be catered to... GM is lacking.

Third, powertrain. How many OHV 6cylinders are there? 3.5, 3.9, 3.4, 3.8... ugh, Too many. There should be none. The available DOHC 6's are so much more refined. The only push-rods GM should make are V8s... They seem to have those perfected unlike the V6s. Also transmissions. Look, GM makes the best one, IMO. It is just short a gear or two. But I could care less about that. Manuals. Mainly, the availability of them. Why must I have to get either the top-of-the-line or base model to have one in a Pontiac? Hell, I can't even get one on the Grand Prix or Torrent. GM is lacking.

Fourth, design. Just look at the new Impala, the LaCrosse, the Cobalt, the G6, the Malibu, the Grand Prix, the STS, etc. Most vehicles are either A; bland B; ugly or C; watered down (aka bland v.2). First off, tell Lutz to leave his paws off great designs. Instead, let's have him start before the design. Solstice, HHR being results of this. STS, LaCrosse, and I think G6 being results of the first. GM is lacking.

There's much more... but I've know grown bored with this, too.

[turbo200]

You know I could say a lot here. The simple problem exists that GM is about to be surpassed as the "number one manufacturer of automobiles" in the world, an historical event to say the least. There is a very large problem indeed. My reasoning doesn't work with some here; they refuse to open thier eyes. There is a reason GM makes almost no profit and has been that way for several years now: THEY DON'T MAKE CARS PEOPLE WANT TO BUY. Underline "want"; desire, pull, emotion, fixation, obsession, passion; these are not terms that can be associated with GM cars [until now]. Defend and be yes men all you want, the current administration sees the problem and help is on the way in the form of import-beating products, finally. Competition's a bitch. You have to work double-time to see what they're thinking, GM, in thier arrogance of being the number one maker, number one dealer network, number one advertiser, lost sight of it. GM is now solely a finanical loans business. They don't make profit on thier cars. WHY IS THAT? Answer those tough questions to yourselves, since I believed we had covered that ground on this website for years already. I beleive in GM and thier potential for the future, I will not stop supporting them, I will not stop voicing my views, and I will not stop spreading thier story.

[pow]

Re: they don't make cars people want to buy, the answer is NOT just "RWD," but ordinary, mainstream vehicles that don't seem ordinary at all. GM, IMO, has always been good at niche vehicles (C6, Solstice, SSR), and while that's good for image building, most of their cars that the majority buy are lacking. The Aura is a good start, but why can't the Malibu look like that to begin with?

[frogger]

Grrr the Malibu.. GM had its chance with the homely 2001/2002 Camcorder designs but thats the best they could do, now that just pisses me off thinking about it.