New Pontiac Firebird in 2009?

[wildcat]

Peter DeLorenzo discusses the demise of the GTO in the "On the Table" section of his February 22nd issue.

And he says, "After the new Camaro makes its street debut as a 2008 model, watch for an all-new Pontiac Firebird to debut 12 months later as a 2009 model."

Click here to view his website autoextremist.com.

Edited February 22, 2006 by wildcat

[NOS2006]

I doubt it. It'll be a GTO.

[RJB]

Lutz already stated publicly that there will be no Firebird, only the Camaro.

[NOS2006]

I'm pretty sure he also, at one point, stated there would be no Camaro in the near future...

[wildcat]

You'll notice that Mr. DeLorenzo ends with the words "You read it here first."

[NOS2006]

Noticed, took note, but it'll be called GTO.

[wildcat]

In your opinion, should Pontiac do a GTO plus a Firebird and a G8?

[Newbiewar]

Lutz already stated publicly that there will be no Firebird, only the Camaro.

no thats not what he said...

he said that pontiac would simply not just get another "clone"...

he didnt say that it wouldn't receive another car based off the same platform...

and if i remember correctly he never mentioned the firebirds name.

[wildcat]

Don't forget, FWIW, there also was the January 31st article by Jamie Lareau, "GM's LaNeve says automaker will sell product, not price," in which Lareau asked Mark LaNeve a couple of pointed questions:

Does Pontiac need a Firebird?

"Any kind of a rear-drive, performance-oriented vehicle is something we should look at for Pontiac. Whether it's a coupe or sedan, that remains to be seen."

Wouldn't it compete with the Chevy Camaro if GM builds that?

"I'm not speculating on any of that, but a rear-drive performance-oriented product would be a good fit for Pontiac."

[NOS2006]

In your opinion, should Pontiac do a GTO plus a Firebird and a G8?

If I'm understanding this right.. no.

Firebird or GTO has to be cut; I'd say Firebird. The G8 will keep the same essence of today's Bonneville/Gran Prix. The GTO should be very sporty more than, say, muscular. I'd hope for it to be a RWD/AWD coupe (maybe small suicides too, a la '99 Charger concept) with styling like the Motor Trend sketch from a little while ago. I would hope for a base engine to be a 3.9 Turbo'd but that's ultra-unrealistic, so I'd say a couple V8s and it's good to go.

[wildcat]

Yes, you understood the question. But what if GM thinks the GTO was somewhat of a flop, in their eyes. Maybe they'd rather try reviving the Firebird name? Maybe they'll assign GTO to a trim level of a G8?

Maybe they haven't decided or don't know what to do.

And if they do a Firebird, what will that mean for the proposal to do a bunch of small RWD Pontiacs off of Kappa? Would the Firebird be the Pontiac "flagship" then?

[NOS2006]

Yes, you understood the question.  But what if GM thinks the GTO was somewhat of a flop, in their eyes.  Maybe they'd rather try reviving the Firebird name?  Maybe they'll assign GTO to a trim level of a G8?

I like that idea. However, GM knows the GTO isn't a flop, it just needs a bit more testosterone on the sheetmetal.

Maybe they haven't decided or don't know what to do.

Seems like typical GM, eh?

And if they do a Firebird, what will that mean for the proposal to do a bunch of small RWD Pontiacs off of Kappa?  Would the Firebird be the Pontiac "flagship" then?

I don't think a bunch of Kappas would make sense for Pontiac unless they dump the new G5 in favor of RWD (whoa, this is starting to seem feasible). Yes, indeed, they could make the "stop-gap" G5 turn into something similarly small and RWD. Keep the G6 (well, updated of course), keep the Solstice, and add the G8 as mentioned above. I think we're onto something.

Yet, on the same note, you're not saying the Firebird should be Kappa, right?

Edited February 22, 2006 by NOS2006

[Sixty8panther]

Lutz already stated publicly that there will be no Firebird, only the Camaro.

Yes.... in an article discussing the '04 GTO about two years ago he was asked if the Firebird might ever make a reappearance in the Pontiac lineup and he said "perhaps in another 30 years" referring to the three decade hiatus the GTO had.

This is the same article where he said that the GTO will be a permanent flagship model for Pontiac from now on. Last time I menationed this quote I got roasted like a leg of lamb.

[NOS2006]

I could've sworn the 30 year comment was about Camaro; we had a thread, "40 year anniversary party," around this time...

[wildcat]

Sixty8panther: Roasted like a leg of lamb? Get the tzatziki sauce ready!

NOS2006: No, Firebird probably shouldn't be on Kappa. But I'm open-minded. Whatever will restore Pontiac. [ I like Pontiac second only to Buick. ] And who's to say Pontiac can't have all three big guns (GTO, Firebird, G8 / Grand Prix) at the same time? They did in the late '60s.

Edited February 22, 2006 by wildcat

[Dsuupr]

In the end it's the product not the name that counts. Though using the hertiage of those products to come out with a great modern version of them is a great idea.

[Camino LS6]

This is what I believe we can count on: There will be a RWD sedan and coupe for Pontiac on the Zeta-lite architecture and that there will be a performance version of the coupe. Most likely it will be named GTO, although I'm sure the name Firebird comes up in the planning meetings often.

The Firebird name is most likely to remain dead for the forseeable future as it is way too closely tied to Camaro and thus, would undermine GM's efforts to differentiate the brands if used.

Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

[Sixty8panther]

And who's to say Pontiac can't have all three big guns (GTO, Firebird, G8 / Grand Prix) at the same time?  They did in the late '60s.

Spoken like a true enthusiast! :pontiac:

[Chicagoland]

Would be nice, but 1969 is almost 40 [37] years ago.

Zeta GTO 2 dr and GP 4 dr would be more likely, if GM doesn't run out of $$ with the UAW and all.

[NOS2006]

Well I think they should make the G8 with a coupe option (GTO) and a smaller RWD coupe, Firebird, but styled way differently than the Camaro and come with AWD and a turbo'd version.

[ehaase]

If you're lucky, the GTO may come back as a high performance version of the Pontiac G8 sedan around 2011. It wouldn't surprise me if Camaro is the only Zeta coupe. GM can't spend money funding projects that may not be profitable.

[wildcat]

This is what I believe we can count on: There will be a RWD sedan and coupe for Pontiac on the Zeta-lite architecture and that there will be a performance version of the coupe. Most likely it will be named GTO, although I'm sure the name Firebird comes up in the planning meetings often.

The Firebird name is most likely to remain dead for the forseeable future as it is way too closely tied to Camaro and thus, would undermine GM's efforts to differentiate the brands if used.

Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

ehaase and Camino LS6: How do you feel about the suggestion that Pontiac become a line of small, agile, RWD cars... based off Kappa? Is that preferable to do? If GM makes a RWD Pontiac sedan and/or coupe on Zeta-lite, wouldn't that delay for at least a few years afterwards the possibility of a line based on smaller cars?

[ehaase]

The insiders say that Kappa can't be used for anything more than 2 seat sports coupes. Possibly a small 4 door coupe like the Mazda RX8. GM would basically have to design a new small RWD platform. I think that these small RWD cars would be interesting (not my kind of car though), but I don't know that GM has the funds to develop such a platform. It would be ideal for new Pontiacs and a real 3 series competitor for Cadillac.

[NOS2006]

Exactly! Build a RX8 competitor for Pontiac along with the Solstice, G8 (with GTO coupe option), and sneak a not-so-pure-to-its-name Firebird in there between the G8 and RX competitor.

What is the G5 a stop-gap for? It should be the Kappa 4-seater!

[99camaroSS]

Exactly! Build a RX8 competitor for Pontiac along with the Solstice, G8 (with GTO coupe option), and sneak a not-so-pure-to-its-name Firebird in there between the G8 and RX competitor.

What is the G5 a stop-gap for? It should be the Kappa 4-seater!

in an ideal world..... until then its only more of this

[Camino LS6]

To answer the question, I think that Pontiac should and will be almost entirely RWD/AWD in the years to come. However, I don't think they will all be small cars.

The new line of "small,agile,rwd cars" we have heard about is likely to be what amounts to Kappa II, and I'd look for it about the time the current Solstice/Sky have run their course.

I expect Zeta-lite Pontiacs long before the small cars show up.

[NOS2006]

That's exciting and convincing.

I'm only hoping for 2 small Kappa Pontiacs though. I just want to see those come to life (well, the Solstice already did, so that's one) along with a medium-sized RWD/AWD performance oriented Firebird and a large G8 sedan (RWD/AWD availibility) with the GTO coupe option for a performance oriented larger car.

[Northstar]

I don't think there's a need for a Firebird and GTO. One or the other. Personally, I think the GTO has much less of a "redneck" image amongst the car buying public than the Firebird, but that's just me.

[NOS2006]

Northie, look at my other posts in this thread. Would you agree with a Firebird built that way? (RWD/AWD, mid-size, coupe w/ suicides [a la '99 Charger concept], V6/V6 turbo/V8)

[Northstar]

I don't think that's a bad idea, but I don't see the need for that and the GTO. It just doesn't make sense financially for GM at this point. The GTO should go to Buick if there's going to be a Firebird as well.

I think the Solstice should just get a coupe (something slightly bigger with quad doors like the RX-8 isn't going to have a lot of room in the back anyways (at the auto show it was nearly impossible to even get to the back of the RX-. Then above the Solstice you would have either the Firebird or GTO, but not both.

What I think makes the most sense is for Pontiac to get the Commodore as the next G6 (or rename it) and then bring the next Monaro over as the GTO once again. It would be really cheap for GM to do and Pontiac would be really profitable and maybe GM would "reward" them with another coupe below the GTO.

[NOS2006]

I like that idea, too, but I prefer thinking ideally than literally

[Sixty8panther]

in an ideal world..... until then its only more of this 

Now that we have a '67-'69-retro Camaro concept and a production car headed for showrooms I say ANYTHING is possible!

[/optimistic/naive/enthusiastic]

[hyperv6]

As Paul Harvey waould say.

The Firebird is gone and not coming back! Page 2!

Pontiac will have a 2 dorr RWD coupe not based on the Camaro. It will not be a Firebird and may or may not even be called a GTO but they will get a coupe in the future.

[w00t_man]

With the GTO being dead, would this be more viable?

[99camaroSS]

Now that we have a '67-'69-retro Camaro concept and a production car headed for showrooms I say ANYTHING is possible! 

[/optimistic/naive/enthusiastic]

the camaro has given me hope yes, but i am worried for pontiac, by the time they get all this so called exciting product out to market they will be so far into the red that it wont even matter

[Charger4U]

make it a gto not firebird

[04monteintimidator]

i actually really like the idea of the G8 with the GTO as a coupe model along with a RWD/AWD firebird... its bringing the GTO back to its origins as a performance model of a base sedan... altho im getting bored with this G(#) naming thing... they should come up with new names... but then again if they're gunna do the GTO as a coupe version of a sedan... im sure alot of people wouldn't mind if that sedan was called Tempest

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Sixty8panther: Roasted like a leg of lamb?  Get the tzatziki sauce ready!

NOS2006: No, Firebird probably shouldn't be on Kappa.  But I'm open-minded.  Whatever will restore Pontiac.  [ I like Pontiac second only to Buick. ]  And who's to say Pontiac can't have all three big guns (GTO, Firebird, G8 / Grand Prix) at the same time?  They did in the late '60s.

I'm with you there-it could be done-we're told it can;t be done, but why not? I know the coupe market is small these days, but still...have the GTO for compact performance, GTO for mid-size, upgraded performance, and the Grand Prix would be the lesser-powered GTO coupe; Bonneville the large rear or all-wheel-drive sedan and Safari wagon-so what's the problem?

[ToniCipriani]

Actually, if Pontiac is designed to go straight at Mazda, a Firebird makes sense. My friend says the RX-7 should make a return, and it's larger than the RX-8.

Then Pontiac will have the lineup covered:

Mazda 3/5 -> Vibe

Mazda 6 -> G6/Grand Prix

CX-7 -> Torrent

RX-8 -> Firebird

RX-7 -> GTO

Mazdaspeed -> GXP

Not a perfect cover, but I think it should work fine.

[Dragon]

NOS2006: No, Firebird probably shouldn't be on Kappa.  But I'm open-minded.  Whatever will restore Pontiac.  [ I like Pontiac second only to Buick. ]  And who's to say Pontiac can't have all three big guns (GTO, Firebird, G8 / Grand Prix) at the same time?  They did in the late '60s.

there was alos a lot more market share to go around back then.

In today's automotive climate, I think the best we can expect is 2 of the 3.

Pontiac having 2 performance coupes just isn’t realistic IMO when you already have the Camaro and Solstice GM stable. Not to mention the higher priced Vette, XLR, etc.

[corvette_dude729]

NOS2006: No, Firebird probably shouldn't be on Kappa.  But I'm open-minded.  Whatever will restore Pontiac.  [ I like Pontiac second only to Buick. ]  And who's to say Pontiac can't have all three big guns (GTO, Firebird, G8 / Grand Prix) at the same time?  They did in the late '60s.

Also back in the 60's (I realy wouldn't know but...) we didn't have high gas prices and millions of camrys running around and everybody buying a Japenese car. People didn't care as much to get a really cheap car, they wanted american muscle, but today there is simply no market, just like dragon said.

[Bandit 1]

I think there should be a G8 (sporty 4 door) to compete with the 300, charger, and others. The GXP at least getting a LS2. These cars (esp. the GXP would have nice interiors) and these cars would be from 25-40k. A firebird at about 20-25k the firebird formula being 25k with the 5.3 303 hp engine. A Trans Am starting at about 27k with a LS2 making 400 hp and a WS6 at 30 or 32k with stiffer suspension and 450 hp then a 500 hp LS7 powered Trans Am (Bandit maybe?) at about 35k. The firebirds would have as nice an interior as the G8s from 25-30k and Trans Ams would have as nice an interior as the G8s from 31-35k. Then the base GTO would have 450 hp and be about 35k then a GTO Judge would be 38-40k and have 500hp The Judge would have an interior as nice as the top of the line G8 the base GTO would be almost as nice.

[Chicagoland]

Also back in the 60's (I realy wouldn't know but...) we didn't have high gas prices and millions of camrys running around and everybody buying a Japenese car.  People didn't care as much to get a really cheap car, they wanted american muscle, but today there is simply no market, just like dragon said.

107051[/snapback]

Well, I was around back then, and muscle cars were around, but not all over the place. Full sized cars had 50% plus market share, and most had modest motors. A 2 barrel carb 307/289/318 V8 in a big car was no muscle car. Also, most Novas had I6s.

Most pre Baby Boomers [adults in the 1960s] got average full sized cars/wagons with low power motors, like my parents. Or they got loaded big Buicks with 455's, but to tow, not race.

It was later in the 70's when teens got old base model cars were stipped of their low HP motors and a crate motor was dropped in.

[Hudson]

Well, I was around back then, and muscle cars were around, but not all over the place. Full sized cars had 50% plus market share, and most had modest motors. A 2 barrel carb 307/289/318 V8 in a big car was no muscle car. Also, most Novas had I6s.

And the Volkswagen (yes, an import) was one of the best-selling cars in the US.

[Sixty8panther]

People didn't care as much to get a really cheap car, they wanted american muscle, but today there is simply no market, just like dragon said.

107051[/snapback]

How do you figure there's NO market?

Seems to em the new Mustang, 300C

& Charger are doing pretty damn well.

[Camino LS6]

We can debate the logic forever, but Firebird is just a memory now. It won't return with Camaro and likely will never return at all.

[NOS2006]

We can debate the logic forever, but Firebird is just a memory now. It won't return with Camaro and likely will never return at all.

175142[/snapback]

Well, I'm sure we could've said that about the GTO 10-15 years ago, too. :AH-HA_wink:

Never say never my good friend.

[FAPTurbo]

Personally, I don't want to see another Firebird, unless it is well differentiated from it's Chevrolet cousin. I know different engines is likely wishful thinking, but there are other ways to make the Pontiac stand out.

I'd prefer they stuck with the GTO anyway.

[Camino LS6]

Well, I'm sure we could've said that about the GTO 10-15 years ago, too. :AH-HA_wink:

Never say never my good friend.

175183[/snapback]

That's why I said likely never. Remember, it took GTO 30 years to return.

I think that, barring a dramatic expansion in the coupe market, it would be safe to say Firebird will never return as a Camaro twin. The name could return someday on a very different car I suppose, way down the line.

Don't hold your breath.

[GMC]

I would have liked a firebird, but I can always change the badging on the Camaro based GTO!

Edited August 29, 2006 by GMC