Toyota Introduces Camry and Avalon with All-Wheel Drive

This is great news to try and keep the sedan alive but it feels like a slight miss without the V6. 

I wonder why Toyota is adding AWD as an option on their two most successful sedans.  Where is the demand for another AWD sedan?

Very cool, Appreciate the details about the AWD system as in the past I have not been impressed with weak AWD systems coming out on sedans, this seems to be very competitive. Should help in the winter states.

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

This is great news to try and keep the sedan alive but it feels like a slight miss without the V6. 

In the Camry, most are sold as 4-cylinders anyway, so I don't think the V6 will be missed.  The Avalon though, I think that's a miss without the V6.

18 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

I wonder why Toyota is adding AWD as an option on their two most successful sedans.  Where is the demand for another AWD sedan?

Demand in northern climates? Trying to take some more market share from Honda/Hyundai/Kia? It sounds like it was low cost R&D to pull it off. 

4 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Very cool, Appreciate the details about the AWD system as in the past I have not been impressed with weak AWD systems coming out on sedans, this seems to be very competitive. Should help in the winter states.

What weak AWD systems would they be? Most are just lifted straight out of crossovers like this one is. 

7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

What weak AWD systems would they be? Most are just lifted straight out of crossovers like this one is. 

This is a while back, probably at least 10 years, but I remember the few cars that had AWD systems barely really put much to the rear wheels and if you wanted AWD you moved to a CUV/SUV implementation. I am just glad to know they were able to take what has been successful in the RAV4 and offer it in the sedans. This should make for a great option for those wanting or needing AWD.

11 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

In the Camry, most are sold as 4-cylinders anyway, so I don't think the V6 will be missed.  The Avalon though, I think that's a miss without the V6.

it makes sense as most are probably comparing to the 4-cylinder CUVs anyway.

There also may not be enough room for the AWD system with the V6..?

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

This is a while back, probably at least 10 years, but I remember the few cars that had AWD systems barely really put much to the rear wheels and if you wanted AWD you moved to a CUV/SUV implementation. I am just glad to know they were able to take what has been successful in the RAV4 and offer it in the sedans. This should make for a great option for those wanting or needing AWD.

10 years ago the AWD choices were mostly Subaru, Audi, the Ford Fusion and the Buick Regal/Lacrosse.   All of them are quite capable AWD systems.  

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

This is a while back, probably at least 10 years, but I remember the few cars that had AWD systems barely really put much to the rear wheels and if you wanted AWD you moved to a CUV/SUV implementation. I am just glad to know they were able to take what has been successful in the RAV4 and offer it in the sedans. This should make for a great option for those wanting or needing AWD.

For the respective class though, all it's really for is not getting stuck in snow and a little more traction in the rain. You barley need anything to the rear to just not get stuck. 

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

it makes sense as most are probably comparing to the 4-cylinder CUVs anyway.

There also may not be enough room for the AWD system with the V6..?

That's probably it.  Or the transmission they use for the AWD system isn't rated for the power of the V6. 

26 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's probably it.  Or the transmission they use for the AWD system isn't rated for the power of the V6. 

Oh yeah, I didn't think about that. If it was pulled from the RAV4, it probably isn't rated for the output of the V6.

Car and driver just had a new comparison of Altima AWD vs legacy. Now Camry is adding AWD. GM should add it to the Malibu because customers in snow climes would respond if the system is low cost like it is in Altima and Subaru.  Ford had AWD fusion but you had to upgrade quite a bit.  Altima offers it at one of the more base models. 

Since I got the tourx recently I will say the AWD on that is fairly unobtrusive apart from the fuel economy hit, which is noticeable.  The tourx has the old GM 2.0 turbo four which moves the unit well and has good power rating but in practice doesn’t have good aural qualities and can seem unrefined at times.  The 1.5 in the Malibu is a smoother running engine. Just smaller.  GM is already rolling out the new 2.0 turbo which now I understand better.  It is smoother but needs more power.  Where I am going with this I still see where having a v6 turbo or non as a choice would still be good.  I used to think the turbo 4 was the better option in the Regal but now I may be swayed back to thinking ultimately that the GS and its v6 would be a more enjoyable powertrain.  

If camry and Altima can offer cheap AWD on those sedans I think it’s a real win.  

3 minutes ago, regfootball said:

Car and driver just had a new comparison of Altima AWD vs legacy. Now Camry is adding AWD. GM should add it to the Malibu because customers in snow climes would respond if the system is low cost like it is in Altima and Subaru.  Ford had AWD fusion but you had to upgrade quite a bit.  Altima offers it at one of the more base models. 

Since I got the tourx recently I will say the AWD on that is fairly unobtrusive apart from the fuel economy hit, which is noticeable.  The tourx has the old GM 2.0 turbo four which moves the unit well and has good power rating but in practice doesn’t have good aural qualities and can seem unrefined at times.  The 1.5 in the Malibu is a smoother running engine. Just smaller.  GM is already rolling out the new 2.0 turbo which now I understand better.  It is smoother but needs more power.  Where I am going with this I still see where having a v6 turbo or non as a choice would still be good.  I used to think the turbo 4 was the better option in the Regal but now I may be swayed back to thinking ultimately that the GS and its v6 would be a more enjoyable powertrain.  

GM would probably make AWD on the Malibu a $7,500 option. ?

I wonder if there will even be a next gen Malibu..

5 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I wonder if there will even be a next gen Malibu..

Exactly.  

But all wheel drive is a 1350 dollar option on Altima.  If GM chose to do it for say 1500 on its base models it would make sense.  

14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

GM would probably make AWD on the Malibu a $7,500 option. ?

Yes. At least that. And leave a bunch of desired equipment off of it still as well.  

10 minutes ago, regfootball said:

Exactly.  

But all wheel drive is a 1350 dollar option on Altima.  If GM chose to do it for say 1500 on its base models it would make sense.  

Yes. At least that. And leave a bunch of desired equipment off of it still as well.  

It's not a crossover or luxury sedan, though, so GM isn't going to put any effort into it or update it...not enough profit in bread-and-butter sedans for GM anymore.

It is a good idea and I am surprised they have not done it already.  A lot on consumers want all wheel drive whether they actually need it or not.  So this broadens the customer base and gets existing buyers to fork over another $1500 because they think awd is safer.

I wonder if they won't offer a V6 AWD Avalon until the Lexus ES has it.

45 minutes ago, regfootball said:

 Ford had AWD fusion but you had to upgrade quite a bit.

Ford's was only in the Fusion Sport... I think that started at like 34k, when it was still around. Actually, I don't know if they're still making them or if they're done yet. @Drew Dowdell, are they done making the Fusion? 

The one downside i see to this, from Toyota's point of view, is this will be stealing some sales from the RAV4 or Highlander now. 

This is probably why companies have held off for so long in offering AWD in their sedans, they sell AWD CUVs with better margins. 

28 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Ford's was only in the Fusion Sport... I think that started at like 34k, when it was still around. Actually, I don't know if they're still making them or if they're done yet. @Drew Dowdell, are they done making the Fusion? 

That's not true, you could get AWD on a Fusion SE... $26,480.  You can go on Ford's Build-It site and build one right now.

They're still building Fusions for 2020... don't know when that will stop. 

40 minutes ago, frogger said:

I wonder if they won't offer a V6 AWD Avalon until the Lexus ES has it.

 

The ES will probably get eAWD in the hybrid only.  Uses a system like the Pruis's AWD. 

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

I wonder if there will even be a next gen Malibu..

Highly unlikely. 

Dynamic Torque Control AWD borrowed from RAV4 that was borrowed from the Subaru Torque Vectoring AWD system.

Dynamic TORQUE Control AWD with a non turbo 4 BANGER sure is a contrasting description...

42 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's not true, you could get AWD on a Fusion SE... $26,480.  You can go on Ford's Build-It site and build one right now.

They're still building Fusions for 2020... don't know when that will stop. 

Oh no sh!t?? I genuinely thought it was only in the Sport. Good to know. 

Okay, also good to know. I didn't really think they were done as the sales numbers still seemed fairly strong and those would diminish more if the supply was limited.

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Ford's was only in the Fusion Sport... I think that started at like 34k, when it was still around. Actually, I don't know if they're still making them or if they're done yet. @Drew Dowdell, are they done making the Fusion? 

The one downside i see to this, from Toyota's point of view, is this will be stealing some sales from the RAV4 or Highlander now. 

This is probably why companies have held off for so long in offering AWD in their sedans, they sell AWD CUVs with better margins. 

No. Ford Fusion had an AWD option on the 2.0. For 2019 they had a 2.0 AWd se package that was a great deal. Ford’s had 2.0 AWD available on the fusion the entire time.  I took a hard look at getting one. 

An mkz 3.0 AWD would be a great used car find. 

GM should consider putting AWD on all of its (non-Cadillac) sedans as a $1000 option.  They already do that on the CUVs (although not as inexpensively).

10 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

I wonder if there will even be a next gen Malibu..

Nope, It's dead- coming quite soon.....

Think this could be the shot in the arm that the sedan market needs to keep going...maybe even grow. People want the year round safety....and may not want to spend 50k to do it.

And they wonder why Subies sell so well....

Another car that would benefit from AWD - Ford Fusion. OH wait, that's gone too......

8 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Nope, It's dead- coming quite soon.....

Think this could be the shot in the arm that the sedan market needs to keep going...maybe even grow. People want the year round safety....and may not want to spend 50k to do it.

And they wonder why Subies sell so well....

Another car that would benefit from AWD - Ford Fusion. OH wait, that's gone too......

GM knows they can’t sell a 40k AWD Malibu but they certainly sell a 40k equinox.  GM doesn’t want to give the buyers a chance for cheap AWD if they can force them to buy an expensive suv to ultimately get it. 

Now though a basic ct5 AWD is actually an option I guess   .....

What if...a potential customer does not want or need AWD even if they live in snow country.

AWD should be an option, but it shouldnt be forced upon a client to buy it if the customer chooses to want the highest trim of that vehicle. 

Take like me for instance.

I bought in 2012, an Acura TL SH-AWD.

I did not buy it for the AWD. I bought it for the extra horsepower and torque available on the SH-AWD trim versus the lower trim. 

Although the AWD system is trick and awesome, I dont need it, or even want it 7 years later.  Yes, the car seems nimbler when all those trick SH-AWD stuff kick in, but, its still unnecessary heft on my TL that I do NOT appreciate... 

And yes, now that Quebec has made winter tires mandatory since like...20 yeas now or something, I really do not need AWD to get me through Quebec winters. 

In other words,  make all the goodies and highest horsepower ratings available with FWD or RWD only and AWD should be an option on top of that as the final option.  Not as the highest possible trim includes AWD...

9 hours ago, riviera74 said:

GM should consider putting AWD on all of its (non-Cadillac) sedans as a $1000 option.  They already do that on the CUVs (although not as inexpensively).

I don't think there are going to be any sedans from GM outside of Cadillac in a few years?  The ones left will be Cadillac with their sports car/convertible size trunks.

5 minutes ago, frogger said:

I don't think there are going to be any sedans from GM outside of Cadillac in a few years?  The ones left will be Cadillac with their sports car/convertible size trunks.

 

I think that is the path they are on...Chevy is going to be all CUVs, SUVs and trucks with the Corvette and maybe a small hatchback or two (Sonic?).  Buick will be all CUV,  leaving only Cadillac w/ a few sedans.    They've given up on mainstream sedans, just as Ford has.  

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

I think that is the path they are on...Chevy is going to be all CUVs, SUVs and trucks with the Corvette and maybe a small hatchback or two (Sonic?).  Buick will be all CUV,  leaving only Cadillac w/ a few sedans.    They've given up on mainstream sedans, just as Ford has.  

That is really sad.  What if the whole CUV/SUV trend gets crushed?  Where will the sedans from GM come in?  As we all know, no trend lasts forever.

2 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

That is really sad.  What if the whole CUV/SUV trend gets crushed?  Where will the sedans from GM come in?  As we all know, no trend lasts forever.

Then they are screwed for their short-sightedness.   Basically Ford, GM and FCA are giving the mainstream FWD sedan market in the US to the Japanese and Korean companies.   Incompetence and short-term thinking because of the current CUV fad.   Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai and Kia aren't getting out of the mainstream sedan market and will own it in NA.  

Then again, incompetence and short-term thinking is nothing new for the Detroit automakers.... 

It's not a 'short term trend', folks; it's a market shift. And it's been the better part of 50 years in the making.  Trucks/SUVs are 72% of the USDM and still rising.  Sedans WILL continue to bleed marketshare.  GM & Ford are simply conceding their portion of the 'whip socket segment' to the japanese (who are already madly SUV/CUV heavy, too).

Recall when an SUV in the U.S. only meant the BOF / V8 Explorer or Tahoe??  Once CUVs met sedans in pricing, size & MPG, all the while providing better interior room/capacity, it was game over for sedans.

Jeep went from 63K sales in 1982 to 973K in 2018.  The oh-so-desireable honda accord has lost 42% of it's volume in only 5 years.  I don't know what more telling/damning evidence anyone would require than that.

GM & Ford are absolutely doing long-term thinking here.

10 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Another car that would benefit from AWD - Ford Fusion. OH wait, that's gone too......

I just found out that it's had AWD basically the whole time. 

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It's not a 'short term trend', folks; it's a market shift. And it's been the better part of 50 years in the making.  Trucks/SUVs are 72% of the USDM and still rising.  Sedans WILL continue to bleed marketshare.  GM & Ford are simply conceding their portion of the 'whip socket segment' to the japanese (who are already madly SUV/CUV heavy, too).

Recall when an SUV in the U.S. only meant the BOF / V8 Explorer or Tahoe??  Once CUVs met sedans in pricing, size & MPG, all the while providing better interior room/capacity, it was game over for sedans.

Jeep went from 63K sales in 1982 to 973K in 2018.  The oh-so-desireable honda accord has lost 42% of it's volume in only 5 years.  I don't know what more telling/damning evidence anyone would require than that.

GM & Ford are absolutely doing long-term thinking here.

I couldn't agree more. It isn't like it's a small blip on the radar at this point. The SUV/CUV/truck market has been growing and growing for decades. 

Once SUVs/CUVs bridged most of the fuel economy gap, it created the huge swing that we're in right now. People can easily pull 30mpg in their compact CUVs. 

10 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

What if...a potential customer does not want or need AWD even if they live in snow country.

AWD should be an option, but it shouldnt be forced upon a client to buy it if the customer chooses to want the highest trim of that vehicle. 

Take like me for instance.

I bought in 2012, an Acura TL SH-AWD.

I did not buy it for the AWD. I bought it for the extra horsepower and torque available on the SH-AWD trim versus the lower trim. 

Although the AWD system is trick and awesome, I dont need it, or even want it 7 years later.  Yes, the car seems nimbler when all those trick SH-AWD stuff kick in, but, its still unnecessary heft on my TL that I do NOT appreciate... 

And yes, now that Quebec has made winter tires mandatory since like...20 yeas now or something, I really do not need AWD to get me through Quebec winters. 

In other words,  make all the goodies and highest horsepower ratings available with FWD or RWD only and AWD should be an option on top of that as the final option.  Not as the highest possible trim includes AWD...

 

 

Can’t disagree with that.  

https://www.motor1.com/news/95302/pontiac-rageous/

Time to bring back the Pontiac Rageous!

Not a sedan. Not an suv!

I don't see any reason midsize sedans would make a come back.  Its not like they were being driven like sports cars and people are missing out because they have a 1.5 extra inches of ground clearance and a slightly higher center of gravity.

@regfootball

Ive been wanting THAT car ever since it was shown as a concept waaaay back when. And I wasnt even a family guy then. But yeah,  just looking at the car itself omitting the blaring outrageous  styling cues on it and comparing it to how the modern sedan has evolved and you see quite evidently why and how the people moved away from family sedans to CUVs.  

The Rageous has large doors and they open very wide to let people get in and out of them easily, (and yes its a hatch, and it was a no-no for a car/sedan to have hatches then, but ironically not for CUVs and SUVs, I guess the negative stigma only works for cars as for CUVs, its the ruggedness image that prevails...) so the trunk space is easily accessible. And this is how midsized and fullsized cars of the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s were... 

Its not even that low to the ground either.

Its funny, but that is how I described what a sedan should be earlier in this thread... 

The Rageous was the first Pontiac concept that made me think the brand was losing their mojo. Never liked the execution there.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

The Rageous was the first Pontiac concept that made me think the brand was losing their mojo. Never liked the execution there.

Technically, the Rageous was just another step up of where Pontiac styling was from the late 1980s to 1997 when the concept came out.  And that kind of styling marched on up until maybe 2002 when the Trans Am died and Pontiac ditched the side plastic cladding of the Grand Am, Aztek and Bonneville and debuted the G6, G8,  GTO and Solstice. 

The late 1980s  Dustbuster plastic body cladded minivan along with the FWD  plastic body cladded Grand Prix GTPs and Grand Am GTs should have made you think that way.  About 10 years prior. 

That cladding doesn't outrage me, after all don't forget where it came from: mercedes.
Even up to the early '00s GPs were still very nicely/aggressively styled :

This, tho I was internally upset the GP had started offering a 4-dr.

The Rageous was jarring in a not-good way, stylistically.

https://jalopnik.com/ford-and-gms-decision-to-abandon-small-cars-is-already-1839858417

And the two "big hitters" are: 

Corolla: down 0.3%

Civic: up 0.6%

They really aren't missing out on anything, yet, at least. 

Equinox: up 2.29%

Trax: up 82.04%

Ecosport: up 10.7%

Escape: down 7.2%

It's not a losing proposition if they were losing money on making those cars. You can't make it up on volume. 

@balthazar

That was an attractive Grand Prix. As a 4 door and especially as a coupe.

I loved the 1st generation W-Body as well.  A tad less for the 4 door. More as a coupe on the 1st gen. 

I preferred the "Mercury Sable" front end than the base 4 door GP, but the Turbo GP coupe  in 1989 is still a car I lust over to this day...

I never thought anything about it. The Grand Prix being a 4 door. I guess I was too young to comprehend that Grand Prixs were always 2 door personal luxury coupes.  

Ive mentioned how much I loved the plastic body cladding of Pontiacs during this era, and the Rageous, with its outlandish lines and angles just made me love Pontiac all that much more. 

And then the Firebird/Trans Am get a refresh the following year based on the Rageous' outrageous looks....

and I was blown away by them (Pontiac's pony car) again!!!  Made me even more of a fan of the Trans Am than ever before!!! 

I get where you are coming from. The design language of the Rageous is everywhere going nowhere. It can make one dizzy. LOL.    What you dont like about it is what I LOVE about it though.  

One thing you cant argue, the name fits the car PERFECTLY.

OUT-RAGEOUS it certainly is!!!   Its also full of RAGE!!!  I mean. What a PERFECT name for it, really!!!

Id be a VERY PROUD owner and driver  of the Rageous. Its too bad Pontiac never built one for me. *SIGH*

12 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I just found out that it's had AWD basically the whole time. 

And I thought they dumped it years ago!

Good to know... ? 

For the 4dr Grands Prix,  I liked the looks of the '97-03 generation...great roofline w/ slim pillars, none of the cheesy cladding.

AWD is a great option that I wish Honda would take a hint from. AWD is so far superior to standard FWD in all situations. Makes the car more complete.

17 minutes ago, texas99alpha said:

AWD is a great option that I wish Honda would take a hint from. AWD is so far superior to standard FWD in all situations. Makes the car more complete.

better balance too for FWD based vehicles. 

On 11/14/2019 at 9:22 PM, Robert Hall said:

For the 4dr Grands Prix,  I liked the looks of the '97-03 generation...great roofline w/ slim pillars, none of the cheesy cladding.

that might have been the best 4 door version.  ironically, we are inheriting an 08 grand prix soon for the kid to drive.... excitement!

On 11/15/2019 at 10:13 AM, texas99alpha said:

AWD is a great option that I wish Honda would take a hint from. AWD is so far superior to standard FWD in all situations. Makes the car more complete.

Now that the Accord rid itself of the v6, the AWD and v6 apparently must be the reasons du jour for Acura to continue to sell the TLX.....

On 11/14/2019 at 11:04 AM, Robert Hall said:

https://jalopnik.com/ford-and-gms-decision-to-abandon-small-cars-is-already-1839858417

Yeah, GM doesn't even want to feed the starter market anymore......

that said, they probably will have cheap trim version of the upcoming Trailblazer, and they will probably increase production on the Trax and dump all sorts of already amortized Korean made Trax to fill the entry level.....

I saw a really nice 2019 Cruze premier today.  As always, GM figures it out after its production run is over....

GM is really REALLY missing the boat on affordable FUN and PERFORMANCE cars these days.  The younger gen has no vehicles that are cheap + fun to draw them into GM showrooms.  Camaro aside.

21 hours ago, regfootball said:

that said, they probably will have cheap trim version of the upcoming Trailblazer, and they will probably increase production on the Trax and dump all sorts of already amortized Korean made Trax to fill the entry level.....

Remember, there is the new Trailblazer coming too. 

Articles are stating the Encore GX is more than competitively priced with the original version they will continue to sell.  Perhaps the Trax and Encore will be rebated into the entry level positions now held by Cruze, Sonic, and the late, lamented Verano.

The Trailblazer, if priced reasonably (hopefully a lesson has been learnt with Blazer's sky-high MSRP) could be made to fill a lot of shoes over at Chevy stores.

Maybe... if the incentives/lease deals are right, a base Trax FWD could be mom's next car, instead of a Venue.