There Is A Second-Generation Toyota 86 Coming

Glad they have more markets for this than just the Untied States.  This is probably the last naturally aspirated affordable we will see....outside of the Miata.

I mean, I'm happy to hear this, but I have to say I'm more surprised. Sales have languished for years, they've refused to do a hi-po variant, and the model has seen but extremely modest updates.

They need to do this right. The car needs to be designed to accomodate a convertible and a high performance version out of the gate.

Interesting, why would Subaru not do this, after all Toyota owns them pretty much.

Toyota has managed to take a classic, proven formula and create a boring car nobody gives a rat's ass about. It's less than the sum of its parts, and the new Miata kicks its ass.

Well to be fair this has been a tough market for coupes. Not just under powered ones. 

But Toyota did really miss the mark here. This car needs a little more power. It could be done easily with such a light weight car. They did not need to add a V8 but they did need to add some more HP and some more improved performance options in the suspension. Let people build this car to suit their needs not just pose as a fun car missing the fun. 

Now Keep in mind I am not saying make it 500 HO but another 40 HP would have solved many issues. 

The engine fell short of everyone's expectations right from the beginning. Toyota's 4-cylinder legacy sets a bar much higher than 200 horsepower with a 7500 rpm redline.

15 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Toyota has managed to take a classic, proven formula and create a boring car nobody gives a rat's ass about. It's less than the sum of its parts, and the new Miata kicks its ass.

The Miata kicks its ass in many ways.

hate to say it, but for all of my lvoe of this car, given the choice, I think I would take the Miata.

14 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Well to be fair this has been a tough market for coupes. Not just under powered ones. 

But Toyota did really miss the mark here. This car needs a little more power. It could be done easily with such a light weight car. They did not need to add a V8 but they did need to add some more HP and some more improved performance options in the suspension. Let people build this car to suit their needs not just pose as a fun car missing the fun. 

Now Keep in mind I am not saying make it 500 HO but another 40 HP would have solved many issues. 

They are also trying to make it affordable. 

People are comprising it to the Honda S2000, and the S2000 like a lot of Japanese sports cars was very expensive when it came out.  The S2000 often sold for something like 32 grand, which adjusted for inflation is probably like 40 grand...

The BRZ/Toyota 86 sells for 25 grand, which adjusted into 2004 or 2005 dollars is something like  18 grand....you cannot compare an 18,000 car with a 40,000 car...

And peoples incomes have not kept pace with inflation.  a turbo and a nicer interior might push this to 30-35K, where it will start to compete with V8 Mustang, V8 Camaro, et al

14 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Well to be fair this has been a tough market for coupes. Not just under powered ones. 

But Toyota did really miss the mark here. This car needs a little more power. It could be done easily with such a light weight car. They did not need to add a V8 but they did need to add some more HP and some more improved performance options in the suspension. Let people build this car to suit their needs not just pose as a fun car missing the fun. 

Now Keep in mind I am not saying make it 500 HO but another 40 HP would have solved many issues. 

Just another 40-50 ft-lbs if torque from base RPM would have changed how the car drove.

41 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The Miata kicks its ass in many ways.

hate to say it, but for all of my lvoe of this car, given the choice, I think I would take the Miata.

They are also trying to make it affordable. 

People are comprising it to the Honda S2000, and the S2000 like a lot of Japanese sports cars was very expensive when it came out.  The S2000 often sold for something like 32 grand, which adjusted for inflation is probably like 40 grand...

The BRZ/Toyota 86 sells for 25 grand, which adjusted into 2004 or 2005 dollars is something like  18 grand....you cannot compare an 18,000 car with a 40,000 car...

And peoples incomes have not kept pace with inflation.  a turbo and a nicer interior might push this to 30-35K, where it will start to compete with V8 Mustang, V8 Camaro, et al

 

A little more torque and HP is not going to increase the cost that much.

As for the other models it is up to the owner how much they want to spend.

The S2000 was never really in the picture here. They were sold in such small numbers and only had two seats.  This was more of a car for someone getting out of collage that just got a new job but still paying a loan off would be able to afford and insure. 

I call not for anything over the top but a little more HP and Torque would fix this a bit.

The one issue is still two doors as younger people really have little care over coupes anymore. We would not want caught dead in a sedan but today given the choice that is what most will pick.

Most of them want to haul their friends, and 4 doors is actually an advantage-which is why the Focus and Fiesta ST, along with the SI sedan, sell so well.

Also with people putting off marriage and lots of young people getting horizontal and knocking knees, there is a good chance his young female friend has a young un.

A Focus St or Civic SI 4 door will swallow a car seat, good luck with that with a BRZ.

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Just another 40-50 ft-lbs if torque from base RPM would have changed how the car drove.

Probably not realistic for a naturally aspirated 4 cyl in that price range.

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Probably not realistic for a naturally aspirated 4 cyl in that price range.

Disagree, there have been plenty of NA engines that did better than this turd did. Problem is this is a one of those over rev'd engines with 205 HP, but only 156 lbs-ft of torque. 40 to 50 more ft-lbs of torque would have helped big time.

Course Olds Quad 4 900HP 4 banger would be awesome too.

32 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Disagree, there have been plenty of NA engines that did better than this turd did. Problem is this is a one of those over rev'd engines with 205 HP, but only 156 lbs-ft of torque. 40 to 50 more ft-lbs of torque would have helped big time.

Course Olds Quad 4 900HP 4 banger would be awesome too.

...and this is the problem, everyone is wanting a supercar for Cruze prices....not going to happen.

Besides, the WRX is a grand more and much more of a performance car.  GTI is much better road car....better options exist for the money.

But GTI and WRX share a body shell and most other components with high volume sedans.  BRZ is a bespoke chassis and body style....

13 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

...and this is the problem, everyone is wanting a supercar for Cruze prices....not going to happen.

Besides, the WRX is a grand more and much more of a performance car.  GTI is much better road car....better options exist for the money.

But GTI and WRX share a body shell and most other components with high volume sedans.  BRZ is a bespoke chassis and body style....

This is the real problem.

Even for a single guy with no kids, a WRX, GTI, or FoST is so much more car for the money.

 Here is the problem today. 

In the past they could take an economy car and pop in a Corvette engine for pennies and make it a cool fast affordable car then. Then the Insurance cost came into play. 

Now we have economy cars now that are small FWD cars that are 5 times the cost of the economy cars of the past. Most are FWD and if you apply AWD and a decent engine to it the price jumps to $40K and they now can not afford the payment as well as the insurance. 

The older people do not cramped small cars even if they are fast as they can generally afford better. 

Lets face it most kids with these cars are limited to mom and dad bought it or they just happen to be lucky to get a decent job or work all the hours they can to afford it.

Kids today have really lost that dream of owning a really cool car. They can no longer attempt to work at a gas station and have dad cosign for a Corvette or GTO as they did in the 60's. 

They do not have the option of buying a used Big Block performance car for pennies on the dollar like they did in the 70's and in the 80's the used performance market was there but was edging farther and farther away with cost and insurance. 

So kids now turn to video games and cell phones. It used to be cars were your connection to a social life and it represented you and got you to the mall where you hung out. Today the malls are closing down and the kids are linking up on their video games and Facebook.

The goal today is not to have a 6.6 but a I Phone 7 Plus.

The cars today with good suspensions start at $25K and run to the mid $30's. You add a better engine and it jumps to the high 30's and goes to just over $40K.  Too often these cars used are well used and often trashed due to poor modifications and poor car.  Try to find a good Cobalt SS today with low miles or in decent condition same for others. 

Ford and Chevy have tried to make some real options in the Camaro and Mustang with smaller engines but yet potent like the 1LE V6 Camaro that can be had for a decent price and is a prime car. But again it is mid $30's and again insurance. 

Kids also have a difficult time getting work in many areas as the entry level jobs are drying up and the raise in min wage has killed what was left. There are also no gas station jobs for anyone under 21 years old due to the sale of alcohol and no more pumping of gas. 

The only real way to do these cars is globally. Even the Mustang and Camaro are making moves to go overseas now. 

Lets face it one of the best buys is the GTI but it lacks the engine till you move up in price. The ST is a waste of time. The future just looks weak here. 

The one area I think is being over looked is a sport truck. The ZQ8 was a real option as it was lower priced and you could option it from base model to loaded and the after market really made it easy to do what ever you wanted to do with it. I would like to see a mid size and full size sport model in 2WD offered in 4-V6 and in the full size Various V8 models. 

I had a Sonoma ZQ8 that was a dream. It was like driving a Z/28 and an El Camino. It could have used a little more engine than the 4.3 as it was sorely under powered. 

It was a good deal compared to many cars. 

My HHR SS also is a fun car to drive. Frustrating that it is FWD and hard to get it to hook up. But AWD would have driven the price way out of the realm of worth. The aftermarket really did a good job of giving the engine what it needed for only a couple hundred dollars. The Camaro 4 needs this package and about 320 HP. 

Then you have the false notion that RWD cars can not be driven in the snow. We did it for 100 years with no issues. Limited slip and good tires do the work and today with all the electronic aides you can get anywhere. I would just avoid it just because if I had a new Camaro I would not want it in the salt. 

To sum this up there is no easy answer that adds up here economically. Even if they take the Cruze and make an SS it will cost too much for the target customer if you do it right. How much will someone pay for a Cruze? 

I think the best bet is to take the Opel OPC hatch make it a Mini killer and sell it at Buick and target 30 somethings. This would give them a fun car, a car they can afford and option it to where it is worth the price. That way you can do AWD and the things you need and get the price you should. 

7 hours ago, dfelt said:

Disagree, there have been plenty of NA engines that did better than this turd did. Problem is this is a one of those over rev'd engines with 205 HP, but only 156 lbs-ft of torque. 40 to 50 more ft-lbs of torque would have helped big time.

Course Olds Quad 4 900HP 4 banger would be awesome too.

Just the ecotec turbo in my SS is great ad affordable. 

The Solstice up grade went to 290 HP and 340 Ft lbs.

My SS was limited by the trans axle.

Just now, hyperv6 said:

Just the ecotec turbo in my SS is great ad affordable. 

The Solstice up grade went to 290 HP and 340 Ft lbs.

My SS was limited by the trans axle.

Lingenfelter was running stock blocks and heads to 1500 HP.

The drifting Solstice did 500 HP with no tear downs all seasons. So the protetial is there.

I think its cool Toyota makes this car, but it's not going to gain market force until it gets a real engine.

Shame, because a small car with nuts and rip roaring HP might be a combination for success.

Chevy will be forced to start dumping lesser trim Camaros and cutting their base prices, etc. so ultimately whether there is a new FRs or not, it may actually compete straight up on price with those 4 and 6 cyl Camaros....and in that instance, I go Camaro every day of the week.  15's were fire saling for 21, 22 grand and now Chevy wants 27 grand for a 4 banger Camaro.  I think if Chevy repackages and rebates those basic 4 cylinder Camaros to leave the showroom at 24 grand after discounts it would be damn hard for the FRS to gain any significant traction too....unless they get some engine in there.