Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

13 hours ago, balthazar said:

I thought all that mattered was 0-60.

It is not all that matter.  The Model S is a freakishly fast car though, that is going to attract sales.  But the Model 3 Performance also is really fast for less money, and the Model S was dated.  Perhaps with this refresh the Model S will see an increase in sales.

5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

They haven’t buried anyone to date and have no more a shot of burying Tesla than the competition does. Think about it before you misread that. It sure as hell wont start with the ugly EQS.

Mercedes is #1 in the world in luxury cars sales.  Mercedes has the Nurburgring record holder, and  7 consecutive Formula 1 championships. They are king of the mountain at the track and the sales chart.  Although Tesla and BMW beat Mercedes in the USA last year, so they need to get that sales title back.  

5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

No. The Audi A6 and Lucid Air both will. You really need to educate yourself. 

A6 E-tron will probably come up short of 400 on the EPA rating, but still adequate range for sure.  Audi and Mercedes pose the biggest threat to Tesla.

Lucid Air claims over 400, let's see what happens, they never have even built a car yet.  And how is their quality going to be?  Probably where Tesla's was 10 years ago.   EQS is currently in production, as is the Model S.  These other guys are concepts, pipe dreams, and "coming soon" product.

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Tesla Model S does it now, the Mercedes EQ S will do it.  End of list.

So then since your adding the unreleased EQS to the list (European production for China does not count since they have not shipped yet there or here), lets as @surreal1272 stated the Audi and Lucid, plus since we are covering models that are stated to do 400 miles and yet are not released.

Rivian, Ford, GMC, Chevrolet just to mention a few more that have been announced, have mules out and about and will go into production and be out in 2022.

Seems lots of 400 mile BEVs will be available.

Interesting, but in talking with @A Horse With No Name Chris today and his Family, it dawned on me as we were discussing auto's that Tesla has something that I doubt Mercedes-Benz will do. The official tear downs of the Tesla's by the guy that does reports on the auto build quality and sells it to other auto companies to compete.

Tesla has made their motors and Controllers built to Military grade spec. As such, while the Fit n Finish sucks and all the plastic inside the auto sucks, the powertrain and battery packs will last way longer than just about any other auto company.

I believe they took the military grade route to ensure their autos in these early days would drive and do well as we all know Military gear gets abused. Seems Tesla get abused and still keep running as we have seen many used Tesla's for sale with 400,000 miles on them.

I doubt Mercedes-Benz will build their EQS to this level of durability.

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A6 E-tron will probably come up short of 400 on the EPA rating, but still adequate range for sure.  Audi and Mercedes pose the biggest threat to Tesla.

Lucid Air claims over 400, let's see what happens, they never have even built a car yet.  And how is their quality going to be?  Probably where Tesla's was 10 years ago.   EQS is currently in production, as is the Model S.  These other guys are concepts, pipe dreams, and "coming soon" product.

Oh f@#king stop it. Their claim is as valid as Mercedes and the EQS which is almost assured to not keep the 400 miles range. It’s been well discussed as to why so just save it. 
 

As far as Lucid, their quality can be no worse than Tesla’s is TODAY. Screw ten years ago. 

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is #1 in the world in luxury cars sales.  Mercedes has the Nurburgring record holder, and  7 consecutive Formula 1 championships. They are king of the mountain at the track and the sales chart.  Although Tesla and BMW beat Mercedes in the USA last year, so they need to get that sales title back.  

So, in other words (and without the fanboy superlatives), they haven’t buried anyone. They can’t even beat BMW and Tesla at this point. That is not “king of the mountain” in sales but then again, fanboy logic. 

18 hours ago, David said:

Interesting, but in talking with @A Horse With No Name Chris today and his Family, it dawned on me as we were discussing auto's that Tesla has something that I doubt Mercedes-Benz will do. The official tear downs of the Tesla's by the guy that does reports on the auto build quality and sells it to other auto companies to compete.

Tesla has made their motors and Controllers built to Military grade spec. As such, while the Fit n Finish sucks and all the plastic inside the auto sucks, the powertrain and battery packs will last way longer than just about any other auto company.

I believe they took the military grade route to ensure their autos in these early days would drive and do well as we all know Military gear gets abused. Seems Tesla get abused and still keep running as we have seen many used Tesla's for sale with 400,000 miles on them.

I doubt Mercedes-Benz will build their EQS to this level of durability.

Teslas's do seem quite durable.  Mercedes used their Formula 1 powertrain team to help develop the EQS motors, and the new AMG plug-in hybrid powertrains.  Formula 1 parts have to be pretty durable.  

Pro-level race vehicles are completely gone through after EVERY RACE. Some motorsports rebuild the entire engine after every race. 

I would not choose to call that 'durable' as related to passenger vehicles.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Formula 1 parts have to be pretty durable

This is based off of what exactly?

Actually...

Racing cars are built ONLY to last THAT race...   

Balthy already stated that.

Engines, transmissions...are all rebuilt after EVERY race.  Tolerances are soooooo tight, that after running hard for a full race, the wear and tear on them in soooooo great that a rebuild is necessary because after a race, the tolerances are no longer in spec, wear and tear... therefore the engine is not making the full amount of horsepower that was engineered  into it and the transmission will fail...

The aeropackages on a race car are engineered to be just strong enough to do its job, but not as strong as to be too heavy....  In other words:  aeropackages and even the chassis, are NOT overengineered to last a lifetime, just strong enough to be as light as possible to accomplish the task at hand in that one race. Which is to be as light as it could possibly be...

Even the tires...are not 

Quote

Formula 1 parts have to be pretty durable

pretty durable...

Durable means they last 50-60 thousand miles, right?

Well...we all know that racing tires do NOT last but a handful of laps...

The only race cars I know that HAVE to be durable, are the ENDURANCE race cars that race for 12 or 24 hours...

But even THOSE...all THEY have to do is just outlast the competition and for only...that 12 or 24 hour period...

However, race cars are built sturdy...to handle  high G Forces and high speed impacts to protect the driver. 

But being built sturdy does NOT equal being built durable. 

Being built to high tolerances does NOT equal to being built durable.

Race cars are NOT built to be durable. 

Passenger cars are built to be durable. They are built to last a couple of hundred of thousand of miles...  and there is a usual warranty from the manufacturer of 5 years or 50 000 miles.  If only a race car could get 5 months and 5 000 miles...

On 6/18/2021 at 9:28 PM, smk4565 said:

The Tesla Model S does it now, the Mercedes EQ S will do it.  End of list.

From what I've read, the EQS is estimated to be sub-400 miles on the US test cycle. 

On 6/19/2021 at 6:02 AM, surreal1272 said:

They haven’t buried anyone to date and have no more a shot of burying Tesla than the competition does. Think about it before you misread that. It sure as hell wont start with the ugly EQS.

Yeah, Mercedes botched the styling of the EQS and I'm usually a sucker for Mercedes styling. That thing just has not grown on me yet. I don't care that its function over styling. It's ugly. 

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

Pro-level race vehicles are completely gone through after EVERY RACE. Some motorsports rebuild the entire engine after every race. 

I would not choose to call that 'durable' as related to passenger vehicles.

F1 changed that awhile back as the top teams would rebuild/replace-with-new after every race but now they're required to last 7 races(sealed - cannot be touched) or they're penalized. But, your point still stands. 7 races is far from extreme durability as it's estimated to be only 1326 miles + practice and qualifying(add 15%..?). 

11 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Engines, transmissions...are all rebuilt after EVERY race. 

Not in F1. 

44 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

F1 changed that awhile back as the top teams would rebuild/replace-with-new after every race but now they're required to last 7 races(sealed - cannot be touched) or they're penalized. But, your point still stands. 7 races is far from extreme durability as it's estimated to be only 1326 miles + practice and qualifying(add 15%..?). 

Not in F1. 

I get what you are saying. And yes, you are not arguing against what Balthy and I are saying, but only correcting the information at hand...which is cool. And necessary for mis-information not to be reproduced.

Thank-you.

It is quite recent, this rule, I believe. I think 2018?

But even before 2018, sometime between the 1980s when it was carefree and 2018, the engines had to last 4 engines per driver for the whole season  or 5 races per engine.  In other words, some sort of durability was and is applied to F1 engines and gearboxes.  Which is nice to know.  

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/promoted-how-f1s-engines-survive-the-punishment-of-a-long-season-5285414/5285414/

The relevant sections of the Formula 1 technical regulations written by the FIA (motorsport's governing body) decree, in short, that each driver may use only three engines per season to cover every practice session, qualifying and race.

Article 23.3 (a) of the 2018 FIA sporting regulations states: "...each driver may use no more than three engines (ICE); three motor generator units-heat (MGU-H); three turbochargers (TC); two energy stores (ES); two control electronics (CE) and two motor generator units-kinetic (MGU-K) during a championship season.

Long gone are the carefree, spendthrift days of the mid-1980s (pictured below), when the likes of BMW specialised in producing 'qualifying grenade' motors, capable of pushing out around 1500bhp... before internal components melted and the engines were scrapped.

Now, with only three PUs permitted per driver, each of them has to last seven races, whereas previously it was four per driver, or five races per engine. The requirement for PUs to last an extra two race weekends was "a significant step", in the words of one engineer, but the change was made to help reduce the cost of supply to the customer teams.

We'll I honestly do not think any other auto company, here in the US, Europe or Asia has gone the route of Military Grade for the power train, controllers and batteries like Tesla. This was talked about since 2018.

Tesla Model 3 is 'military-grade tech years ahead of peers' but still expected to lose money (yahoo.com)

Tesla Model 3 is 'years ahead of peers' but still expected to lose money (cnbc.com)

And we have not seen any other auto company offer a Bio-Weapon filtration system.

Putting the Tesla HEPA Filter and Bioweapon Defense Mode to the Test | Tesla

If Tesla can do this, and Mercedes-Benz is supposed to be the standard of the world, why does the new EQS not have this filtration system or Military Grade hardware for moving the auto?

Right, not willing to spend the money!

Maybe they shouldn't be military-grade if they want to turn a profit..? 

Mercedes is a profitable company, Tesla is not. 

I think this right here is what absolutely kills the car for me. This ratio being off messes with everything else. 

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Maybe they shouldn't be military-grade if they want to turn a profit..? 

Mercedes is a profitable company, Tesla is not. 

I think this right here is what absolutely kills the car for me. This ratio being off messes with everything else. 

Agree that is a big issue and goes with the bunker style of you cannot see out of the auto very well, just sucks along with the overall jelly bean look.

In regards to Military Grade, they have been building their motors, controllers and battery packs this way from the beginning, I see no reason they cannot continue in this robust way but improve the manufacturing process of the auto's and quality. 

If Musk would only embrace the things that the Legacy makers do right such as turning out a truck every few seconds, AKA the assembly line process rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, they would do so much better. Then again their assembly of the auto is one of the most cost expensive ways since they do build way too many small parts to be assembled such on the Model Y.

The Giant Casting machine for the Model Y will greatly improve assembly quality along with reducing cost of manufacturing. Going from 70 pieces to assemble to 1 giant cast unit will help with quality.

I remember when this first came to Light in 2020.

Cast Parts On The Model Y: Specialists Talk About What It May Have (insideevs.com)

7 minutes ago, David said:

In regards to Military Grade, they have been building their motors, controllers and battery packs this way from the beginning, I see no reason they cannot continue in this robust way but improve the manufacturing process of the auto's and quality. 

And they haven't made a yearly profit since the beginning either so you're requesting higher quality in other places which only increases costs even more. That sounds like a formula to lose more money. 

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

And they haven't made a yearly profit since the beginning either so you're requesting higher quality in other places which only increases costs even more. That sounds like a formula to lose more money. 

Valid point, but one does have to question the crazy poor leadership of Musk. He bought out his brothers or relatives, who ever it was Solar Panel business and seems to get distracted in so many ways about building Tesla Auto's. 

We also have talked about how after the multiple decades of building the Charger/Challenger how it is pretty much paid for, so after a decade and half of building the motors/controllers/battery packs to Military grade spec, one would think they should have it down for a profitable build now.

Yet, we all know they are not making money especially when taking the carbon credits into account. So where is the real expense?

Is it the distraction of solar panels, Wall Power, Space X, etc., etc., etc.,

23 hours ago, balthazar said:

Pro-level race vehicles are completely gone through after EVERY RACE. Some motorsports rebuild the entire engine after every race. 

I would not choose to call that 'durable' as related to passenger vehicles.

F1 gets 3 engines,  MGU-K, MGU-H and transmissions per year and have 20-23 races a year.  So their engine has to do 7 races and most of those laps are 70-80% full throttle at 15,000+ RPM.  No passenger car could run 2 hours around a track near redline 80% of the time without everything over heating and the engine probably dying, let alone do that in 7 races, 7 qualifying sessions and 21 practice sessions.  

4 hours ago, David said:

We'll I honestly do not think any other auto company, here in the US, Europe or Asia has gone the route of Military Grade for the power train, controllers and batteries like Tesla. This was talked about since 2018.

Tesla Model 3 is 'military-grade tech years ahead of peers' but still expected to lose money (yahoo.com)

Tesla Model 3 is 'years ahead of peers' but still expected to lose money (cnbc.com)

And we have not seen any other auto company offer a Bio-Weapon filtration system.

Putting the Tesla HEPA Filter and Bioweapon Defense Mode to the Test | Tesla

If Tesla can do this, and Mercedes-Benz is supposed to be the standard of the world, why does the new EQS not have this filtration system or Military Grade hardware for moving the auto?

Right, not willing to spend the money!

The EQS's air filtration system is as good as a hospital operating room.

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

F1 gets 3 engines,  MGU-K, MGU-H and transmissions per year and have 20-23 races a year.  So their engine has to do 7 races and most of those laps are 70-80% full throttle at 15,000+ RPM.  No passenger car could run 2 hours around a track near redline 80% of the time without everything over heating and the engine probably dying, let alone do that in 7 races, 7 qualifying sessions and 21 practice sessions.  

Corvette with passenger can easily do this!

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The EQS's air filtration system is as good as a hospital operating room.

Where is this stated on MB web site? Media Site? Press Release as I have not seen it or read it.

Nothing posted here: Daimler Global Media Site

Nothing posted here: Mercedes-Benz Cars - Daimler Global Media Site

Nothing posted here: Mercedes-EQ - Daimler Global Media Site

Especially here seems nothing in rereading this about that level of air filtration: ‘This is for you, world’ - the marketing campaign for the EQS - Daimler Global Media Site

Looking through this I cannot seem to find it either: The new EQS - Mercedes me media (mercedes-benz.com)

No mention of it in the streamed live press release: Mercedes-Benz – Livestream.

Finally found it, no mention of at good as a Hospital operating room, only states the EQS has a Hepa filter system which is an optional item on the EQS: Comfort features in the new EQS - Mercedes Me media (mercedes-benz.com)

Before you point to the line in the EQS link above, yes I read the following:

Now if someone can find this imagenary ZG 250-1 certification of Viruses and bacteria that would be great since I can only find this as a statement on MB web site, NO CDC, New England Journal of Medicine or any other official health site seems to have this certification. MB also DOES NOT seem to quote where this fictional cert comes from unlike the other * items listed at the bottom of the web page. So NO it does not count as a bio-hazard filter system equal to Tesla.

https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko/The-new-EQS-ENERGIZING-AIR-CONTROL-Plus.xhtml?oid=49404671

Filter removes over 99.65% of all particles.

https://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-eqs-cabin-air-as-good-as-operating-theatre-127936/

"So proud of the clean air achieved by its new climate control, Mercedes has had its filtration system certified according to the stringent DIN EN 1822 standard, with the car-maker claiming no other car currently on sale offers cleaner cabin air."

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko/The-new-EQS-ENERGIZING-AIR-CONTROL-Plus.xhtml?oid=49404671

Filter removes over 99.65% of all particles.

https://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-eqs-cabin-air-as-good-as-operating-theatre-127936/

"So proud of the clean air achieved by its new climate control, Mercedes has had its filtration system certified according to the stringent DIN EN 1822 standard, with the car-maker claiming no other car currently on sale offers cleaner cabin air."

So MB DOES NOT state it follows the DIN EN 1822 standard as it is not stated anywhere on their web sites. Motoring has never had a problem quoting false data also, so while the 1822 standard is a Hepa Standard for Europe.

EN 1822 Standard. Absolute Filters (EPA, HEPA and ULPA) | Venfilter Air filters and industrial ventilation

Again, MB does not state it as such. The ZG 250-1 certification seems to be a made up certification by MB and Anyone can state their product filter removes a high percentage of particles, but that is an OPEN book on how they test their own product.

Where is the independent testing to back this up?

As an OPTIONAL add on, that also means the whole ventilation system is compromised so 99.65% is pretty much impossible to enforce.

19 minutes ago, David said:

So MB DOES NOT state it follows the DIN EN 1822 standard as it is not stated anywhere on their web sites. Motoring has never had a problem quoting false data also, so while the 1822 standard is a Hepa Standard for Europe.

EN 1822 Standard. Absolute Filters (EPA, HEPA and ULPA) | Venfilter Air filters and industrial ventilation

Again, MB does not state it as such. The ZG 250-1 certification seems to be a made up certification by MB and Anyone can state their product filter removes a high percentage of particles, but that is an OPEN book on how they test their own product.

Where is the independent testing to back this up?

As an OPTIONAL add on, that also means the whole ventilation system is compromised so 99.65% is pretty much impossible to enforce.

Mercedes says over 99.65% of particles, I'll take their word for it.  And that matches Tesla's 99.7%, and we know Tesla is more likely to round up numbers than Mercedes is.  

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes says over 99.65% of particles, I'll take their word for it.  And that matches Tesla's 99.7%, and we know Tesla is more likely to round up numbers than Mercedes is.  

If MB is so great and reliable, then why do they not post their actual testing and certification of the process?

Why is there no details of what 99.65% of what particles?

What size Hepa filter is this?

So many unanswered questions with a fictional certification.

Tesla at least posts their testing and Hepa Filter size.

Putting the Tesla HEPA Filter and Bioweapon Defense Mode to the Test | Tesla

8 minutes ago, David said:

If MB is so great and reliable, then why do they not post their actual testing and certification of the process?

Why is there no details of what 99.65% of what particles?

What size Hepa filter is this?

So many unanswered questions with a fictional certification.

Tesla at least posts their testing and Hepa Filter size.

Putting the Tesla HEPA Filter and Bioweapon Defense Mode to the Test | Tesla

23.5 inches by 16.2 inches and 1.6 inches thick, 10 liter volume

https://insideevs.com/news/501198/mercedes-benz-eqs-world-premiere/

It's a HEPA filter, does anyone really care about this??
Every time you open a door or the windows, every time you enter the car with shoes, clothing, hair; air quality is rendered moot.

15 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It's a HEPA filter, does anyone really care about this??
Every time you open a door or the windows, every time you enter the car with shoes, clothing, hair; air quality is rendered moot.

They care in China where the air quality is terrible.  And maybe Los Angeles or NYC where congestion is bad, outside of that probably not.

Nah...its about chemical warfare.

And ze Germans (Mercedes) know a thing or two about that from their recent but past history... ☠️  

Sorry @David  

Stay safe everyone! 

Get your HEPA filters to compliment your masks now!   ?

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

They care in China where the air quality is terrible.  And maybe Los Angeles or NYC where congestion is bad, outside of that probably not.

Maybe you missed the point there. You still have to get out of your car in those places. 

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 No passenger car could run 2 hours around a track near redline 80% of the time without everything over heating and the engine probably dying, let alone do that in 7 races, 7 qualifying sessions and 21 practice sessions.  

Which includes AMG's street cars... 

But in all seriousness, I don't think ANY vehicle's engine and transmission could NOT withstand that. I'm almost certain brakes on all of those vehicles will fail before blowing an engine or transmission up. 

A crazy air filtration system is just a gimmick to advertise something "neat". I really don't see the point of it, but I guess it's a neat thing... 

16 hours ago, David said:

Agree that is a big issue and goes with the bunker style of you cannot see out of the auto very well, just sucks along with the overall jelly bean look.

I don't even really think it is bunker-style as the side windows clearly have a lot of window. 

16 hours ago, David said:

Is it the distraction of solar panels, Wall Power, Space X, etc., etc., etc.,

SpaceX is it's own private company and financially has nothing to do with Tesla. 

The Tesla solar panels and Wall Power are part of Tesla though. 

24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

SpaceX is it's own private company and financially has nothing to do with Tesla. 

The Tesla solar panels and Wall Power are part of Tesla though. 

Yes Space X is it's own company run by the same CEO as Tesla, so Yes it does matter as he is distracted on how to live on Mars and send people there. His focus is NOT on Tesla only, just like the solar panels or wall power. He is a distracted CEO that is hurting IMHO not helping Tesla as much as he should be.

17 minutes ago, David said:

Yes Space X is it's own company run by the same CEO as Tesla, so Yes it does matter as he is distracted on how to live on Mars and send people there. His focus is NOT on Tesla only, just like the solar panels or wall power. He is a distracted CEO that is hurting IMHO not helping Tesla as much as he should be.

I don't think there is some crazy "distraction level" that's making Tesla non-profitable. He's not there doing day-to-day activities. He's strictly making company-wide decisions. 

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think there is some crazy "distraction level" that's making Tesla non-profitable. He's not there doing day-to-day activities. He's strictly making company-wide decisions. 

We will see as 2025 is not that far off when clearly 100's of BEVs are going to be on the market and we will know then if Tesla can survive on it's own or not. I am thinking not!

1. Tesla will still be here in ‘25.
2. There won’t be ‘200+’ BE’s on the market by ‘25.

1 hour ago, David said:

We will see as 2025 is not that far off when clearly 100's of BEVs are going to be on the market and we will know then if Tesla can survive on it's own or not. I am thinking not!

What happens in 2025 that "we will see"? Do you really think they'll be gone in only 3.5 years because Musk is a CEO of SpaceX as well? 

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

1. Tesla will still be here in ‘25.
2. There won’t be ‘200+’ BE’s on the market by ‘25.

According to the current released numbers, here is what each auto maker says they will have on the global market in BEVs by 2025 to 2030:

• Honda / Acura - Using GM Ultium batteries and powertrain - 2 in 2024, 8 by 2030
• BMW / Mini / Rolls Royce - 12 models by 2025, full lineup electric for all brands by 2030
• Ford / Lincoln - 8 models by 2025, all electric by 2035
• gm - Chevrolet/GMC/Buick/Cadillac - 30 models by 2025, world wide fully electric on all brands by 2035
• Volkswagen - 50 models by 2025, world wide fully electric by 2030
• Audi - 5 models by 2025, pure electric by 2035
• Bentley - 8 models by 2025, pure bev only by 2030
• Nissan - 12 models by 2025, electric only by 2035
• Toyota - 6 models by 2025, others as demand increases
• Subaru - 6 models by 2025, full hybrid in all product lines by 2035, possible all electric by 2050
• Hyundai/Kia/Genesis - 23 models by 2025
• Volvo - 8 models by 2025, all electric by 2030
• Mazda - 3 models by 2025, all electric by 2050
• Daimler/Mercedes-Benz/Smart - 6 models by 2025, electric only by 2040
• Mitsubishi - 6 models by 2025, all hybrid by 2025, pure electric by 2050
• Stellantis - 100 models by 2025, all electric by 2030
• Maserati - 6 models by 2025, all electric by by 2030
• Jaguar Land Rover - 12 models by 2025, electric only by 2035
• Tesla - 6 models by 2025 not including commercial products. Company pure EV already
• Rivian - 3 by 2025, future products undefined at this time
• Lordstown - 1 model by 2022, undefined for the future, latest legal problems could imply the company might close
• Lucid - 2 models by 2022, 5 by 2025, undefined past 2025 at this time
• Bollinger - 1 model in 2022, 3 by 2025, undefined past 2025
• Geely - New EV division of the parent company, to use their Sea EV Platform to produce 2 models by 2022, 6 models by 2025 with global sales.
• 100 pure electric start ups in China, what if any actually make it out of the country, but many choices across Asia.

These Automakers Now Plan an All-Electric Future - The Detroit Bureau

Stellantis reveals key details of electrification plans - electrive.com

Volvo Confirms All EV Plan by 2030 with Internet Only Sales | MotorWeek

Here Are Automakers' Plans for Adding More Electric Vehicles to Their Lineups - Consumer Reports

Plus got the numbers from the various auto companies press releases on their web site.

This list which I know is not complete, implies that 327 models of BEVs will be on sale globally by 2025 with more un-identified brands / startups. I think Tesla will have a challenge on their hands from the largest OEMs, not to mention smaller startups especially in China.

47 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What happens in 2025 that "we will see"? Do you really think they'll be gone in only 3.5 years because Musk is a CEO of SpaceX as well? 

Tesla will not be gone, but I question if they will be the company they are today, especially independent. 

16 minutes ago, David said:

here is what each auto maker says they will have on the global market in BEVs by 2025 to 2030

You. Said. "by 2025".
 
You're doin' an 'smk'.

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

You. Said. "by 2025".
 
You're doin' an 'smk'.

LOL, No, I am not. I only added up the auto's they say would be out by 2025 and that was 327 BEVs out by 2025. The number is higher if I added in the other auto's they say they will have by 2030 or later. I also did not take the time to post the numbers for past 2025 as I focused on the BEVs that they are saying they will have out by 2025. 

Call me info overload if you want, but wanted to clearly state what each vendor I listed was saying about by 2025 which is the focus on BEVs right now and long term plans as I believe that those later dates for going pure EV as you have stated will get pushed out for some, pulled in for others.

It was an interesting exercise in looking at all their websites for press releases about BEV releases and searching for it on the internet.

A very interesting listing I believe.

6 hours ago, David said:

Stellantis - 100 models by 2025

? ? ? ? ?

I missed that on on the above list. Why not make it 1,000.

More "quality" from Tesla, this time a few day old $130K Model S Plaid.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/brand-tesla-model-plaid-spontaneously-224528567.html

Interesting analysis on Tesla stock, for those who think the current share price is indicative of everything :
 

Tesla sold over 205,000 units in the 2nd quarter, a record number for them.  

... and almost every car at a loss.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

... and almost every car at a loss.

Worth it for the growth rate they have, up 50% last year (when the industry overall was down 16%) and up 54% this year.  

But down from the peak of $900. Everyone who bought in from $700-900 is sweating right now. Zero dividends, meanwhile.

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Worth it for the growth rate they have, up 50% last year (when the industry overall was down 16%) and up 54% this year.  

I have three words for that.

Non-sustainable  

Business

Model

i.e.—Making zero profit on your actual product for more than a decade is not a sustainable business model long term. Overinflated stocks do not a successful company make so can we just stop the wash, rinse, repeat nature of your defense of them that clearly ignores very important facts like that?