Tesla Increases Lobbying Efforts To Break Into Michigan

I just saw a report earlier today saying two thirds of the model S cars need the drive trains replaced by 60k miles. That's not inspiring.

And that report was instantly recognized as a fabrication.

It took words and manipulated them to sell an agenda. 

And it's not like GM. Ford or others don't do direct sales. They do direct sales to fleets and upfitters for fleets for all kinds.

A police agency doesn't just go to the neighborhood dealer to order a police cruiser.

The fallacy of older brand arguments, and fabrication of facts to pander to an agenda.

I just saw a report earlier today saying two thirds of the model S cars need the drive trains replaced by 60k miles. That's not inspiring.

Then you need to read all of this thread to understand why that "report" is F.U.D.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/topic/86111-oh-hi/

Has Tesla Sunk Itself With the Model X?

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/has-tesla-sunk-itself-with-the-model-x-column

 

 

 

Has Tesla Sunk Itself With the Model X?

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/has-tesla-sunk-itself-with-the-model-x-column

 

He has some valid points.  Elon's ego may be the biggest single danger to Tesla.

 

 

 

Has Tesla Sunk Itself With the Model X?

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/has-tesla-sunk-itself-with-the-model-x-column

 

Great write up with some very valid points about Tesla. They should have done the 3 model over the X and should have simplified the X. Thanks for posting.

 

The Dealership of the Future: May Resemble an Apple Store  

http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-dealership-of-the-future-may-resemble-an-apple-store/

 

i hope not, i hate apple stores

 

I agree, I actually dislike the whole Apple Store experience. Feels like visiting a pushy used Ford auto lot.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/tesla-model-s-catches-fire-at-supercharger-station-in-norway/

crispy fried tesla  (no cause given)

wow, that truly burnt to the ground.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/tesla-model-s-catches-fire-at-supercharger-station-in-norway/

 

crispy fried tesla  (no cause given)

Shall I post the thousands upon thousands of pictures of gas powered cars that burned to the ground with no reasonable explanation?

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/tesla-model-s-catches-fire-at-supercharger-station-in-norway/

 

crispy fried tesla  (no cause given)

Shall I post the thousands upon thousands of pictures of gas powered cars that burned to the ground with no reasonable explanation?

 

Exactly.

One of my cars is a model that had a number of unfortunate fires, but when it happens it doesn't make more than a 15 second blurb on the local evening news.  The Honda CR-V window switches could short out and catch fire if they got wet. Ever open your door in a heavy rain?  Honda had to recall that.  

There are also large number of CR-V Engine fires due to a poorly designed oil filter seal. The seal can separate from the oil filter when it is removed and stick to the engine block, when the new filter is installed, it then has a double seal which causes an oil leak. The oil leaks down onto the hot exhaust pipe in front of the catalytic converter causing a fire.

A quote from a mechanic:

"what is simply a mess on any other car is potentially hazardous on a CR-V"

Naturally, Honda denies any flaw or wrong doing. 

Who was it who said "Amateurs building cars."?  Does that apply to Honda too where they design cars where fluids can leak onto things that shouldn't be leaked on?

Im gonna pour more fuel to this fire

Did someone say amateurs building cars?

Did someone post a link on a Tesla fire?

Alls I got to say is 1.6 liter ecoboost for Ford...since Drew took HONDA window switch fires.:..because Ford has got that covered too.

I wont even bother mentioning Ferrari.  OOOPS...I just did!!! 

Feels good to beat a dead horse...in that Surreal and Drew already covered this.

I have nothing more of importance to say...

One could argue, when do I ever say ANYTHING of importance?

That age old question...when will Oldshurst shut his trap?

To that I answer....probably never.

 

Im gonna pour more fuel to this fire

 

 

 

Did someone say amateurs building cars?

Did someone post a link on a Tesla fire?

 

 

Alls I got to say is 1.6 liter ecoboost for Ford...since Drew took HONDA window switch fires.:..because Ford has got that covered too.

I wont even bother mentioning Ferrari.  OOOPS...I just did!!! 

 

Feels good to beat a dead horse...in that Surreal and Drew already covered this.

I have nothing more of importance to say...

 

One could argue, when do I ever say ANYTHING of importance?

That age old question...when will Oldshurst shut his trap?

 

To that I answer....probably never.

I think there have been a few Porsche's recalled from burning to the ground the last year or two.. That's what happens when "Amateurs building cars." happens.   

Cheers to you too CCAP.

PS:

I asked my partner why in the 'blazes' _{(yes...pun intended)} did he choose a Model S?

He said

1. AWD

2. Electric drive

3. Big enough to haul stuff...especially golf bags.

4. Looks good. Not awkward like my car.

So he had to zing me...now...I hope his mother$%%# Tesla burns to the ground...

It's not like regular cars don't burn down to the ground at gas stations. 

And it's not like Volts haven't caught on fire...three weeks after they were crashed.

I can say confidently that quite a few electric cars will catch on fire by 2050 because of accidents.

But certainly not nearly at the rate that it occurs in ICE powered vehicles. 

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/tesla-model-s-catches-fire-at-supercharger-station-in-norway/

 

crispy fried tesla  (no cause given)

Shall I post the thousands upon thousands of pictures of gas powered cars that burned to the ground with no reasonable explanation?

 

I'll save you the trouble. 

https://www.facebook.com/Not-a-Tesla-185125388344010/

Once again... Amateurs building cars.

As I pointed out previously, the established automakers typically have recalls because the engineering behind their tech, or the components they use, was substandard.

In the case of Olds' buddy, his car crashed because Tesla simply didn't realize that moisture and ice buildup could have a negative impact

On braking performance, despite knowing that other automakers in their price class used their brake pads to brush their discs dry in wet driving.

In other words... rookie mistake.

Once again... Amateurs building cars.

As I pointed out previously, the established automakers typically have recalls because the engineering behind their tech, or the components they use, was substandard.

In the case of Olds' buddy, his car crashed because Tesla simply didn't realize that moisture and ice buildup could have a negative impact

On braking performance, despite knowing that other automakers in their price class used their brake pads to brush their discs dry in wet driving.

In other words... rookie mistake.

the Amateur you're talking about is Honda right?  I mean, only a newbie would design an oil filter mount in a spot where any (and I do mean any) leak would drip right onto the exhaust manifold output.

For added benefit, it also manages to leak onto the CV boot while you're doing an oil change.  Ask me how I know.

So... Honda got overly confident about their gaskets and/or the service personnel that do oil changes. Neither is an especially bright move, but...

Well, nobody said they had to be perfect. They just had to build the best car in the world. And they did. 

It's tough act for anyone to follow. but some folks like Faraday Future (which I like to car Faraway future) think they can give 'em a run for their money.

Except their platform is a carbon-copy of what Tesla uses. Probably because Tesla released its patents, and therefore this company owes its existence because of access to a lot of development work already done.

Some rookies can only copy, they can't create. 

What I will still look at how much value for investors Tesla has created. Their share price has increased about 600% in a little less than 3 years. I'd love to see GM do that. Because that is explicitly what Mary Barra wants GM to do. Create value. 

 

Once again... Amateurs building cars.

As I pointed out previously, the established automakers typically have recalls because the engineering behind their tech, or the components they use, was substandard.

In the case of Olds' buddy, his car crashed because Tesla simply didn't realize that moisture and ice buildup could have a negative impact

On braking performance, despite knowing that other automakers in their price class used their brake pads to brush their discs dry in wet driving.

In other words... rookie mistake.

 

the Amateur you're talking about is Honda right?  I mean, only a newbie would design an oil filter mount in a spot where any (and I do mean any) leak would drip right onto the exhaust manifold output.

 

For added benefit, it also manages to leak onto the CV boot while you're doing an oil change.  Ask me how I know.

 

It was to lube up your.. CV boot... Every X thousand miles you get 1/4 of your suspension lubed up. It's actually a great idea. lol 

No I think he may have been talking about Porsche's being amateurs.. They don't even know how to build an ICE without the car burning to a crips! I don't know which has been around longer regenerative braking or the internal combustion engine but one of them has been around a long time. Porsche should never sell cars again if they can't build 1 measly engine without it burning to the ground.. "amateurs building cars" ...   (the puke guy is just funny to me) 

So... Honda got overly confident about their gaskets and/or the service personnel that do oil changes. Neither is an especially bright move, but...

Do you know how many curse words I invent when I have to do an oil change on my CR-V?  It is an utter mess with oil dripping on everything. It gets on the CV joint, it gets on the lower control arm, it gets on the exhaust, it gets on me.   

 

 

Once again... Amateurs building cars.

As I pointed out previously, the established automakers typically have recalls because the engineering behind their tech, or the components they use, was substandard.

In the case of Olds' buddy, his car crashed because Tesla simply didn't realize that moisture and ice buildup could have a negative impact

On braking performance, despite knowing that other automakers in their price class used their brake pads to brush their discs dry in wet driving.

In other words... rookie mistake.

 

the Amateur you're talking about is Honda right?  I mean, only a newbie would design an oil filter mount in a spot where any (and I do mean any) leak would drip right onto the exhaust manifold output.

 

For added benefit, it also manages to leak onto the CV boot while you're doing an oil change.  Ask me how I know.

 

It was to lube up your.. CV boot... Every X thousand miles you get 1/4 of your suspension lubed up. It's actually a great idea. lol 

 

No I think he may have been talking about Porsche's being amateurs.. They don't even know how to build an ICE without the car burning to a crips! I don't know which has been around longer regenerative braking or the internal combustion engine but one of them has been around a long time. Porsche should never sell cars again if they can't build 1 measly engine without it burning to the ground.. "amateurs building cars" ...   (the puke guy is just funny to me) 

 

The puke guy is the reason we had to enforce a limit on the number of emoticons in a single post a few years back.  Imagine dozens and dozens of puke guys on your screen all puking in unison.

But somehow their mistake is just stupidity and substandard work, not a rookie mistake of course.

But a problem in a Tesla vehicle (yes they exist) is not the eligible for same kind of excuse for other automakers.

Well, I guess admitting that other automakers trade their rookie status for stupidity and substandard work in every aspect makes me feel even prouder that Tesla is still a rookie.

If you can't be a rookie - you can always be lethargic, complacent, contemptuous and most of all stupid!!!

Guys... you're missing the point.

Every else gets caught out on being lazy dealing with known variables. The rookies get caught out on being ignorant of the things they can't control or are unaware of. Moisture, for instance.

And it isn't just me picking on Tesla, moisture has gonged other startup operations too. I believe DeLorean had issues with moisture freezing on the engine throttle cable back in the day. Rookie mistake.

And though it was far from the only thing, it did contribute to the rookie's demise.

Guys... you're missing the point.

Every else gets caught out on being lazy dealing with known variables. The rookies get caught out on being ignorant of the things they can't control or are unaware of. Moisture, for instance.

And it isn't just me picking on Tesla, moisture has gonged other startup operations too. I believe DeLorean had issues with moisture freezing on the engine throttle cable back in the day. Rookie mistake.

And though it was far from the only thing, it did contribute to the rookie's demise.

The advantage Tesla has is they can send a software update to the cars to fix the brake issue.  Honda or DeLorean can't do that.

Software updates are nice, but it's not like a 3-dollar piece of tin is a backbreaker either. And the software update sends a pretty powerful (though perhaps unintentional) message to the owner extracting their car from the snowbank: we're fixing your car AT ARM'S LENGTH. DeLorean owners at least had the chance to scream at the dealer while they did the fix.

An advantage Tesla has is they can take all the information from these consumers and/or accidents because of it and have one of their genius programmers write a program and re-flash everybody's cars from their own house and everything could be fixed over night because this does not sound like a mechanical issue at all. If that isn't awesome, I don't know what is. Looks like them rookies always have some sort of youth trick up their sleeve. 

Software updates are nice, but it's not like a 3-dollar piece of tin is a backbreaker either. And the software update sends a pretty powerful (though perhaps unintentional) message to the owner extracting their car from the snowbank: we're fixing your car AT ARM'S LENGTH. DeLorean owners at least had the chance to scream at the dealer while they did the fix.

I'm not sure I follow... I can still yell at the guy over the phone while he is saying "I'm downloading the update to your car now sir".    And then all other Teslas get the same update.  It's fantastic.

They did the same thing when people started hitting large steel bolts, they sent an update to all cars to raise the adjustable suspension a bit until the underbody shields could be installed. 

Maybe. Maybe not.

But in the case of DeLorean, it didn't work. And it's far from a certainty that it will work for Tesla. An unpopular opinion in these parts, no doubt. But a legit one.

For all we know Tesla is data-mining the hell out of every vehicle it produces and looks for anomalies with pride as a hunter searching for prey.

Such as a car continuing to slide even though brakes were applied at a point in time well before they actually activated to slow the vehicle down. 

Imagine if every vehicle could continue to get iterative updates over the ownership of the vehicle. Recalls and TSBs do a lot of that as well. But they're cumbersome, time consuming and there really is no effective means of getting high rates of compliance with vehicles.

That's the hurdle of conventional automakers and their struggles.

For Tesla it's as easy as making sure the vehicle has a data-connection with a mobile hotspot or a wireless access point at home. Of course, the car could also tell you when it needs to go to the Service Centre for a hardware fix.

And yet automakers can't even manage something as simple as that.

For example: GM has 4g LTE wifi its vehicles but GM still sends its recall notices on dead-trees.

Are they the rookies this this realm or what?

That's nice. If you have the cash to cover yourself for your mistakes.

But this all comes back to the Big Picture (and my take on the OP of this thread): Tesla doesn't have the financial or intellectual resources to be doing all that it is currently doing. Ego runs amok. And as we are seeing with the Model X, that ain't good.

Software updates are nice, but it's not like a 3-dollar piece of tin is a backbreaker either. And the software update sends a pretty powerful (though perhaps unintentional) message to the owner extracting their car from the snowbank: we're fixing your car AT ARM'S LENGTH. DeLorean owners at least had the chance to scream at the dealer while they did the fix.

Old School was what you wanted, to be at the dealership in the face of the service rep and yell at them. Baby Boomers and those from the 70's and 80's.

Those born in the 90's and after 2000 want to yell at a person over the phone and have them magically update their auto, phone, etc and have it fixed.

Just a difference of how you want to interface with others. As Drew points out, Tesla has shown the established auto industry how to do updates on all items remotely and faster than having a busy person take their auto into the shop. The only thing you would take your auto into the shop for would be for a physical change of hardware.

That's nice. If you have the cash to cover yourself for your mistakes.

But this all comes back to the Big Picture (and my take on the OP of this thread): Tesla doesn't have the financial or intellectual resources to be doing all that it is currently doing. Ego runs amok. And as we are seeing with the Model X, that ain't good.

Right, and when you were confronted by myself and other posters on the issue on your qualifications to make such an assessment you gathered only information consistent to your pre-existing beliefs.

What I like to see is investor confidence. And it's there in spades. 

They are bearing the burden of building infrastructure on their shoulders. They shouldn't be, but they are. They are pulling off feats of engineering crazy at any price.

And most of their detractors have a past history with their current, and future competition. It's easy to take shots against a company that they internally envy.

For all we know Tesla is data-mining the hell out of every vehicle it produces and looks for anomalies with pride as a hunter searching for prey.

 

Such as a car continuing to slide even though brakes were applied at a point in time well before they actually activated to slow the vehicle down. 

 

Imagine if every vehicle could continue to get iterative updates over the ownership of the vehicle. Recalls and TSBs do a lot of that as well. But they're cumbersome, time consuming and there really is no effective means of getting high rates of compliance with vehicles.

 

That's the hurdle of conventional automakers and their struggles.

 

For Tesla it's as easy as making sure the vehicle has a data-connection with a mobile hotspot or a wireless access point at home. Of course, the car could also tell you when it needs to go to the Service Centre for a hardware fix.

 

And yet automakers can't even manage something as simple as that.

 

For example: GM has 4g LTE wifi its vehicles but GM still sends its recall notices on dead-trees.

 

Are they the rookies this this realm or what?

lawyers and law and lawsuits probably created the need for GM to send paper recalls.

even though lots of stuff can be controlled via software on cars, those who think they can just call tech support for everything and have it fixed...there will still be tons of things to break and malfunction that no software patch can fix.  People can't be lazy, they have to bring in their car.

 

For all we know Tesla is data-mining the hell out of every vehicle it produces and looks for anomalies with pride as a hunter searching for prey.

 

Such as a car continuing to slide even though brakes were applied at a point in time well before they actually activated to slow the vehicle down. 

 

Imagine if every vehicle could continue to get iterative updates over the ownership of the vehicle. Recalls and TSBs do a lot of that as well. But they're cumbersome, time consuming and there really is no effective means of getting high rates of compliance with vehicles.

 

That's the hurdle of conventional automakers and their struggles.

 

For Tesla it's as easy as making sure the vehicle has a data-connection with a mobile hotspot or a wireless access point at home. Of course, the car could also tell you when it needs to go to the Service Centre for a hardware fix.

 

And yet automakers can't even manage something as simple as that.

 

For example: GM has 4g LTE wifi its vehicles but GM still sends its recall notices on dead-trees.

 

Are they the rookies this this realm or what?

lawyers and law and lawsuits probably created the need for GM to send paper recalls.

 

even though lots of stuff can be controlled via software on cars, those who think they can just call tech support for everything and have it fixed...there will still be tons of things to break and malfunction that no software patch can fix.  People can't be lazy, they have to bring in their car.

 

That doesn't exclude them for doing that as well, because it's so much more effective.

The recent FAST Act only makes a provision for 'electronic mail' now.

For being a company so insistent that it is focused on safety, why can't they be just a little more ingenious and actually have lobbied them to have change this much sooner?

Seems like to me leaving the issue of getting the fix done to the owner only makes it easier for old automakers because it certainly reduces the time and expense of actually getting vehicles fixed. 

Meh. All I know is what I read and what I see. And what I've seen is enthusiasm that looks suspiciously like the dot-com bubble back in the day. Irrational enthusiasm and all that. It happens when you have a guy or girl with a good vision. But in the end you gotta be smart about it. And Elon Musk and crew are biting off more than they can chew. Simple as that.

give em credit for trying but yeah ^^^^ very noble what they are doing.  Reality is to be a surviving carmaker in the future they will need insane amounts of capital investment, and a HUGE engineering staff. Doesn't matter if they sell high volume, low margin or the opposite.  It's literally guaranteed that will undersign and under engineer lots of stuff on their vehicles...although suppliers of each part will help close that gap.  Tesla will probably have to joint venture with a major automaker to survive.  

They're trying to project the history of the tech boom and dot com boom to cars.  They'll miss on the automated car thing because Google and Apple and places like that will far outspend them on that.  The non electronic stuff on cars every other large automaker has decades of R&D behind them that tesla either has to buy or just wing it and hope it works.

As far as that tesla fire, i only posted that as an interest item.  Actually i think its an example of how the electric distribution module will require more resources, and the electric only cars will never take off rabidly until that does.

Here's an example.  With the new Chevy Bolt, they should start putting Bolt superchargers at every chevy dealer.  And then they should also create a traveling fleet of roadside assistance emergency charge vehicles so if your Bolt goes dead but you are only a few miles from a charge station, they can come and pump your vehicle on the side of the road with some juice to get it to the next supercharger station (or maybe use that as an upset to an optional service, just like an extended warranty or OnStar.).  And then gas stations will need to look to start implementing a plan to put in electric superchargers.

But there are so many issues to tackle.  Including standardization of charging, and then electrical service and building codes.  It might be best if this is globally developed and then you know how long of a boondoggle that becomes.  And then as soon as they develop it, is it obsolete ?  Think cell phones and cell service.  Going from 3g to 4g and then LTE.  What's next?  

Companies like GM will be able to spur that infrastructure movement on a global level.  GM and Ford and other may even combine forces and do that.  Tesla is giving it the college try right now they just won't ever have the muscle.  Once the bigs get in and the governments too get involved and take over its game over for Tesla, the little startup that almost could.

Maybe range extenders like on the volt will be typical but really truly only will be there to be a generator to charge the battery a little when your 200 mile range goes poop.  Think like a 2 cylinder 600 cc motor or something.

you've hit upon another Achilles heel of electronics outfits: lack of commonality in infrastructure. Even something as quaint as different charging jacks for iPhones is rarely little more than an ego trip for a company.

Common charging infrastructure is an absolute must, but you can be sure in a stared own between Mary Barra and Elon Musk it'll be Barra winning. She already put the boots to Marchionne with the merger stuff-she's pretty ego-resistant.

That story has not been written yet.

It may or may not be as you say, El K.

The dot. com bubble burst...but not for everybody.

Actually, Facebook has only grown in size since then.

Twitter was born after the dot.com bubble went poof.

Apple, grew in leaps and bounds...

This reminds me a helluva lot of Apple actually.

Steve Jobs being an asshole aside, he had an a great ego problem....I see parallels with Musk on this...but I dont want to talk about that...

I remember people making fun of Jobs and Apple...

"nobody wants a touch screen phone" was what naysayers were sayin'...

"Apple, what do they know in making phones?!" were what naysayers were whisperin'...

"HA! The iPhone does not even have a copy/paste feature!!!" the naysayers were snickerin'...

Copy/paste feature and the lack thereof was a major focal point in their laughter...

The naysayers forgot about all the other innovations that Apple brought to the table...which led to the downfall of Blackberry and Apple dethroning Nokia and Motorola in becoming a MAJOR force in the cell phone/smart phone industry...also paving the way for LG and Samsung phones to be major players in this area...

Nokia and especially Motorola who have been the pioneers for this industry...

Same here...we laugh at Tesla for being novices, yet we are too blind to see what innovations they brought to the table...the way they actually schooled pioneers in the car building industry...

Sure...a rookie mistake was made with my partner's situation...yet a simple solution could be made through an internet update on the vehicle...

Funny...I remember Rick Wagoner mentioning the 'electrification of the vehicle', yet he never took a page out of Apple or Windows to update your software on your computer device, yet Tesla took this 'elecrification of the automobile' dream...Wagoner's words...and made it a reality...

Hyper and Drew and yourself El K, say that Musk may be the downfall of Tesla, unlike how Jobs was with Apple, OK...I could live with that thought process, but...Tesla is here for the long haul...Tesla has a cult following like Apple does, so long as the dreams that they have promised us continue to be produced.

Yes, but Jobs was on he right side of the curve (the nadir) when he was pulling things together after the Scully era. There really was nowhere to go but up. Overall the markets are not done wobbling this time round.

I'm not saying this as an "efffff Musk" kind of attitude. I'm just telling you what I'm seeing in he overall picture. And what I'm seeing is Icarus.

Tesla has got the investors....so the capital will be there.

Millions of students graduate in the fields of electronics and computers every day across the globe. Engineers of all kinds too. There wont be a shortage for Telsa to choose from.

Governments are actually helping Telsa with the recruitment of workers and engineers.

Governments are also helping Tesla with the infrastructure...

I know Quebec will be investing billions in this...

Hydro-Quebec is also working GLOBALLY to standardize plugs, and Tesla is one company that is amongst the companies that give feed backs...

And NO, this wont be a Beta/VHS or Blu Ray/HD DVD as world Governments are involved in this process...

So...all this is just fear mongering from you folk...

The investors have already invested. They have less cash now than they did at the beginning.

Not all engineers are created equally. Trust me on this.

You cannot post in this thread and give government props for backing your opinion when the OP is all about government stonewalling Tesla. Governments (especially provincial ones) are AWFUL bellwethers for support.

Europe uses different plugs from Nrth America, right?

Even different voltage ratings in their household appliances, right?

For a hundred years this has been going on, right?

I mean, the same LG OLED 55 inch TV in Europe has a different transformer than the one that is US bound, right?

I mean, LG finds a way to produce, right?

And because Telsa has invested all these BILLIONS in this infrastructure in which some monies were given by some governments to help Telsa...EL K...if you think Mizz Barra has a strong saying to what kind of plug will be used...you got another thing coming...

Money talks...bullshyte walks...and Tesla has given a lot for this infrastructure...to create a 'green paradise'

Dont forget, everybody seems to be wanting a piece of that green paradise dream as of lately, and Tesla is riding high on those wet dreams...governments are sleeping with Tesla as we speak...

That is Michigan...part of the old guard.

Quebec and Ontarion and Canada in general and California are Tesla friendly.

Finland and Sweden and Norway and France and Britain are also Tesla friendly....

France...where the French are also very protective on their own car industry, do indeed help Tesla out.

Everyone says they're friendly to stuff... Until money comes into play.

Everyone says they're friendly to stuff... Until money comes into play.

I know.

Like I said, The Tesla story has not been written yet, We both have to wait and see.

Listen. I know the Model X is NOT the iPhone 3, iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, or iPhone 5...or iPad, whatever iPads are up to...including iPad minis and airs...and Musk may very well not be the suave car salesman Steve Jobs was, but we still have to wait and see, because Tesla is not only about cars, it is about batteries AND recharging infrastructure.

No worries man, it's all good. And I'm not going to die on this hill because I don't really have a dog in the fight. My opinions are a bit more sophisticated than just hating on Elon Musk because I perceive what he's doing as some kind of existential threat.

But they're on some pretty thin ice in an industry that is pretty unforgiving.