Tesla Cuts Model 3 Price Again

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

The charge at home can work for some, but for people without their own garage that would be a problem.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Or homes with no driveways. Or apartment dwellers.

Weather proof chargers are available for people at apartments to homes with no garage or normal drive way. Just park on your dirt patch and still plug in just fine.

Older apartments and condo's just like town houses or homes can be retrofitted with outside chargers.

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

There are solutions if owners are willing to pay for them. Not every apartment building owner will do this, and the majority have not as yet. There are still numerous urban neighborhoods where not having a driveway is commonplace- I'll be working on one such home later today. In fact, it's a series of 6 connected units- none of which have a driveway; all on-street parking.
While I live in a private home, the nearest non-Tesla charger to my house is 30 mins away. Less than a mile away is a large condo village: 83 buildings, The one I worked in last Dec was 12 units. That's about 1000 condos with no driveways & no garages. Believe me; knowing that condo village, the Association is not going to be installing EV chargers anytime in the near future.

Just takes ones tenant to request and ask for it before apartment places consider the money stream and retro fit.

And..

Ill tackle  this: "There are solutions if owners are willing to pay for them. Not every apartment building owner will do this, and the majority have not as yet" 

True...

But we have to view this differently if we are going to use that as a counterpoint. 

1. what neighbourhoods are we talking about were landlords are less than willing to spend money on chargers?

2. If we are talking about less affluent neighbourhoods, to put it mildly, than we have to analyze why this may be as to why landlords are not willing to spend money on chargers.

a) People renting in these neighborhoods may not even have enough money to buy a used petrol car let alone a brand new 50 000 dollar Model 3 or 40 000 dollar Chevrolet Bolt...

b) people in that kind of neighbourhood  may also be a tad less house proud, to put it mildly, in that landlords in this kind of neighborhood may think twice in investing that kind of money for chargers for risk of vandalism or theft or whatever...

SO MOOT POINT!!!

BUT...

3. With that angle out of the way, lets start with the real meat and potatoes argument of "There are solutions if owners are willing to pay for them. Not every apartment building owner will do this, and the majority have not as yet" 

Now...if we are talking about tenants that rent appartements and own Model 3s and Chevy Bolts...

Landlords that own apartment buildings where people have good jobs and have tenants that could afford 40-50 thousand dollar vehicles....well...there is a business opportunity for the landlord to make some sort of money charging a fee covering for the  installation, purchase, usage and wear and tear and cost of electricity AND for a small profit...

And...people that have CHOSEN to buy or lease a Model 3 or Bolt REALIZE and UNDERSTAND and ACCEPT all of the little nuances and fees and whatnot that comes with owning a 40-50 thousand dollar EV WHILE living and renting an apartment  so paying their landlord for service and usage of a charger will not only be accepted, but will be very much appreciated and DELIGHTED to do so!!!

Landlords CAN use this and use it as a business venture and make a small profit...

Everything has a cost attached to it. The great American spirit is to identify a need, calculate the costs involved and try to make some money of said opportunity.

You may see this "There are solutions if owners are willing to pay for them. Not every apartment building owner will do this, and the majority have not as yet" as an obstacle, others may see that as an opportunity to make some fast cash. And as long as the business venture dont lose money...its a success!!!

And the beauty of a charging unit. Once it has been installed. That is it! No other recurring costs are attached to it. Only the cost of electricity when in use...

And if the building complex is being built new, then the charging units could be designed into the building and could be amortized with the mortgage of the building itself...

AT some point electrical capacity for chargers and charging stations will be part of the National electric code. Maybe not in 2022 but in 2032 sure.

54 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

 

ICE has come a long way and will be with us for awhile.

46 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

ICE has come a long way and will be with us for awhile.

Nobody is debating that.

Im not debating that.

But everything does have a shelf life. Everything comes to an end sometime. 

The reason why I have debated this vehemently today is that all that was presented to me as a counterpoint that EVs are just a fad, or that EVs are just too costly to take serious is just short mindedness.  

Its a global shift away from the internal combustion engine. Not that the internal combustion engine is obsolete. But because the WORLD wants to STOP using it all together...(for personal transportation pods...)

And the rebuttals that I have got just plain REFUSE to acknowledge that fact.

And in January 2019, its clear as day that EVERYONE in the AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY IS COMPLYING and CHANGING the landscape of the Internal Combustion Engine...

VW stated that in 2026, they will develop their last internal combustion engine.

https://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/vw-will-develop-its-last-internal-combustion-engines-2026-report-says

2026.

This does NOT mean that VW will STOP producing petrol cars....on 2026

This just means that no NEW internal combustion engine will be engineered AFTER 2026.

VW will continue to build ICE cars as long as their is a demand for them. But no NEW technology to advance ICE will be offered. 

New engines DO have a lifespan of 10 years before new ICE technology takes over. But that also means that VW will be focusing on EVs so THAT technology will eventually make ICE the inferior technology. Their new for 2026 internal combustion engine will be trucking on as long as their will be a demand for it. 10-20-30-40-50 years AFTER 2026.  But the thing is, eventually, this 2026 internal combustion engine WILL be obsolete as VW's focus will be to improve their EVs...and their EV technology could very well mean by 2027 or 2028 or 2038 that their EV technology will surpass that 2026 ICE. 

Couple the fact that China and Germany and other countries will have banned the sale of NEW ICE vehicles by 2030...

YES...as of now, ICE is superior in most ways...the pendulum WILL start to sway the other way. 

GM also stated something similar.

Ford too.

The WHOLE industry will be focusing on EVs to take over...and eventually, EVs WILL take over. 

THAT is why I gave the high definition broadcasting as an example. The INDUSTRY itself is going down that EV road. 

Choice?

Yes in America we have the choice (still) to make our own decision on what we want to buy. In Europe and in China, that decision was made FOR the people. As in NO CHOICE.  By 2030 I might add...

And it seems that GM, FoMoCo, VAG, Volvo, Chinese car companies, Tesla, Rivian, FCA (maybe?),  and some others, (not all manufacturers however) have COMPLIED and are AIDING THAT reality. They themselves are capping the engineering of new ICE but are spending billions in the development of EVs...

About a month or two ago, I had a slightly different perspective of this. But in January 2019, many different developments have happened and press conferences have been made in this industry to tell us just that...how the industry is going forward with the EV thing. 

And to me at least, its clear as day that mostly all who produce cars today, are going forward with EVs as the future. 

Keep in mind that the calender reads 2019.

2026 is a mere 7 years away.  One car cycle away.

2030 is but a short decade away. A mere One and a half car cycle away...

Technology also advances very very fast.

And billions of dollars are being poured into EVs going forward...to meet the 2030 deadline in the world's biggest car market...

Meh- these are all future predictions, not fact. Plans change all the time, CA just cancelled their high speed rail after promising it was coming, for EX. No country has yet instituted an IC ban, they've only picked a random year and state that's their goal.

If automakers don't make any money building EVs, or the sell rate is a mere fraction of IC vehicles, do you think they're all going to blunder forward into bankruptcy 'because they said so'?

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Meh- these are all future predictions, not fact. Plans change all the time, CA just cancelled their high speed rail after promising it was coming, for EX. No country has yet instituted an IC ban, they've only picked a random year and state that's their goal.

If automakers don't make any money building EVs, or the sell rate is a mere fraction of IC vehicles, do you think they're all going to blunder forward into bankruptcy 'because they said so'?

yes!

Plans of this, Im afraid, will NOT change. 

High speed trains for California being canceled?

HA! 

Plans for trains in California were NEVER a thing to begin with.  Plans for high speed trains did not change course. Plans for trains being canceled is par for the course actually. Had they went forward with high speed trains, THAT would have been a change in plans. Cars were always their main thing...

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/inside-l-s-dark-deserted-network-railways/

Quote

 

And yet for three decades several hundred trolley cars rattled through the 4,325-foot-long tunnel each day. When it opened for service on December 1, 1925, L.A.’s first subway shaved 15 minutes off travel time between downtown and other points like Hollywood and Glendale. Passengers boarded the Red Cars from one of six platforms far below the Subway Terminal Building on Hill Street. The trolleys then headed into the double-tracked tunnel, bursting into the sunshine a mile to the west near the intersection of 2nd Street and Glendale Boulevard.

At a cost of more than $4 million, the subway was the last major addition to the sprawling Pacific Electric Railway, a system that by 1925 already faced stiff competition from the automobile. As the Red Cars entered their twilight years in the 1950s, the subway’s five rail lines were retired in favor of above ground buses. The final trolley emerged from the tunnel’s western portal on June 19, 1955, draped in a banner that read “To Oblivion.”

Later the tunnel briefly served as a disaster shelter, and the city considered routing an automated Disneyland-like people mover through it. But in 1967, as part of the Bunker Hill urban renewal project, workers filled in the section between Figueroa and Flower streets. Since then, the foundations of several skyscrapers have forever severed the subway’s path in two.

Bunker Hill Transit Tunnel
Work was under way on a people mover below the skyscrapers when the project was killed by the Reagan administration in 1981. A section along 3rd Street (between Flower and Hill) survives.

 

Plans ALWAYS change.

You are right. Plans always change.

Still doesnt change the fact that as of now...EVs are the future going forward. THAT is THE plan going forward. And until further notice, THAT is what WE have got going. 

And...unless you could tell the future and tell me for sure that plans WILL change...you got nothing...just a generic statement of plans always change. 

Specifically with regards to dates & market share, 'plans always change' is a lot more concrete than 'the future is coming'.

11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Specifically with regards to dates & market share, 'plans always change' is a lot more concrete than 'the future is coming'.

mmmmmm. No.

Politics seem to put a dent to that argument.

Government regs also seem to put a dent into that argument.

CAFE did a lot to downsize cars in the 1970s. Japanese cars got a foothold in this market because of CAFE. 

FWD became the norm. 4 cylinder engines became the norm. 

The thing is...stricter CAFE TODAY is pushing EVs into our future...regardless of market share...

The future is coming BECAUSE plans were changed...for ICE CAFE regs...regardless of what EV market share is in 2019...

Unless CAFE regs change, plans for EVs will not change...

Trump wanted to eradicate what Obama did with those strict CAFE regs....but GM of all corporations thought that was a bad idea, because GM wants to push forward with the EVs and though that if those CAFE regs were to disappear, than that would delay the progress made for EVs...GM wants to have less strict CAFE regs, but still strict enough for EVs to push through...

Like I said...most of all the automotive world WANTS  the EV future to happen. 

I havent strayed from that thought. because THAT is the reality...

Its a GLOBAL direction and the automotive world  is behind it all the way.

'Politics' are the ones 'making plans'.

Quote

Like I said...most of all the automotive world WANTS  the EV future to happen.

'Wanting' it, and BUYING it are 2 different things. I'm not buying a $70+K Rivian truck. Ever.

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

'Politics' are the ones 'making plans'.

'Wanting' it, and BUYING it are 2 different things. I'm not buying a $70+K Rivian truck. Ever.

So?  You aren’t the target customer.  They aren’t work trucks.  

14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

'Politics' are the ones 'making plans'.

'Wanting' it, and BUYING it are 2 different things. I'm not buying a $70+K Rivian truck. Ever.

Nope you are not...

But when a Rivian truck replaces the good ole V8 pick-up from GM...you will...

And good news, GM will probably invest in Rivian...to further the EV tech so that EVs will be the future sometime soon...

PLUS...politics do carve the automotive landscape...

My dad hated 4 cylinders, but in 1986, when his RWD V8 Chevy died on him, because of politics, he was guided by politics to purchase a FWD 4 cylinder Chevy. Although a RWD V8 Chevy could be bought, the same one that died on him, (a 1979 Impala versus a 1986 Caprice), his purchase was a 4cylinder Celebrity. And when that died in 1994, his next purchase was a FWD 6 cylinder. 

He never wanted that FWD vehicle. His desires were always RWD V8s...and he could have bought a new version of his favorite RWD V8 Chevy, he was stuck buying a FWD V6 Pontiac. because politics made it expensive for him to drive RWD V8s...

wanting and buying...

EVs are expensive NOW...

Like I said...short term blindness...

I still believe that if Tesla or any other automaker builds a full size pickup that is normal looking like the F150 Ford EV Truck or the Atlis, people will buy.

If VW builds their Atlas pickup as an EV, I believe it will sell too.

I believe Ford will sell a bunch of these F150 EVs.

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

They aren’t work trucks.  

Whether you can work out of one or not (and there's no reason you can't) is irrelevant. I'm not NOT buying it because it's not marketed as a "work truck", I'm not buying it because it's over SEVENTY GRAND.

13 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Whether you can work out of one or not (and there's no reason you can't) is irrelevant. I'm not NOT buying it because it's not marketed as a "work truck", I'm not buying it because it's over SEVENTY GRAND.

Would you consider a CPO for $35K?

Seems many of the expensive trucks that Ford, Ram and GM are making and selling are ending up on lots for half the price once the lease is over. So their $70K crewcab pickups are about $35K with about 36K miles on them.

So these electric pickups if they follow the same trend and no reason not too will end up being about half price.

That's certainly more tolerable. I'm already 'out' on a new SIlverado- too pricey.

7 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Like I said...most of all the automotive world WANTS  the EV future to happen. 

I havent strayed from that thought. because THAT is the reality...

Its a GLOBAL direction and the automotive world  is behind it all the way.

That's funny, I've read a lot of things indicating automotive executives wondering how they will make money on electrics.  Because they are businessmen, not dreamers.  They cannot afford to dream electrics onto the streets.

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

That's funny, I've read a lot of things indicating automotive executives wondering how they will make money on electrics.  Because they are businessmen, not dreamers.  They cannot afford to dream electrics onto the streets.

You are correct, the EV right now to be profitable have to be in $70-100k price range.   However, initially, cars in general only rich people could afford.  Eventually the technology will be cheap enough to realistically to make profit selling electric vehicles in the affordable price range for the common public.  If you look at technology in general it has been like that with every new and now common and cheap innovation: microwave, refrigerator, TVs etc.

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

Plans ALWAYS change.

Which is why I love living in a dynamic world.  Pulled up to a pump last night that still sold E85 as well as gasoline,..was not sure ethanol was still a thing...

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

That's certainly more tolerable. I'm already 'out' on a new SIlverado- too pricey.

Yeah, another neighbor bought a King Ranch F series...I think NASA spent less putting Armstrong on the moon.

3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

That's funny, I've read a lot of things indicating automotive executives wondering how they will make money on electrics.  Because they are businessmen, not dreamers.  They cannot afford to dream electrics onto the streets.

Nor can they afford to ignore the future. GM and Ford once owned the North American Auto Market and they ignored a ton of trends...How many Hyundai, Benz, Mazda, Toyota, Honda, Lexus and the like do you see in nearly every parking lot?

On 2/14/2019 at 5:47 AM, ocnblu said:

That's funny, I've read a lot of things indicating automotive executives wondering how they will make money on electrics.  Because they are businessmen, not dreamers.  They cannot afford to dream electrics onto the streets.

They'll do it by raising the price of petroleum vehicles towards parity. They've already started. 

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

They'll do it by raising the price of petroleum vehicles towards parity. They've already started. 

Dastardly

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They'll do it by raising the price of petroleum vehicles towards parity. They've already started. 

I didnt even think about that angle. 

Thanks for the insight. 

On 2/13/2019 at 6:10 AM, ocnblu said:

Anyway I'm not easily distracted by Mike & Ike (the candy) or the soda fountain.  I pay at the pump and I'm on my way down the road, with no special planning on my part if I am away from home.  I can stop and spend five minutes on any street corner in America and replenish my Jeepiat.  Not a care in the world.

And that is going to be the case for EVs soon too... except the fill up schedule is different.  PA is installing EV chargers at the state parks (the tab is being paid for by VW), so you can go hiking or whatever while your car nurses on the EV grid.  Here in Pittsburgh, even if one doesn't have a charger at home, there are charging stations all over including in parking garages downtown.    I have a friend with a Volt out in Columbus OH who lives in an apartment and doesn't have charging there, but he has charging available at work.  So he charges while he's at work and rarely ever uses gasoline in in Volt.  He only ever fills up with gas every 3 months.  He could probably get by with a Bolt, but he got the Volt for cheap. 

EV charging is just a changing of mindset.... I know that will be difficult for certain people. 

21 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I know that will be difficult for certain people.

Not difficult.  I.JUST.DON'T.CARE.

Just now, ocnblu said:

Not difficult.  I.JUST.DON'T.CARE.

I find that hard to believe given the number of posts you've made on the subject. 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They've already started. 

How can you tell??

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

How can you tell??

Prices are going up by crazy numbers all around for gasoline cars, but the price of electric or electrified cars is staying fairly flat.

Base price for a Blazer is $30k for FWD. Only way to get AWD is move to the V6 model and get dinged for $35k... for a vehicle that has no more room than the previous generation Equinox... and remarkably similar engine choices.

Compact sedans getting canceled in favor of crossovers that go for $6k to $10k more on the same platform.  Transposing a Sonic into a Trax doesn't cost GM $6,000, but that is how much more it will cost you and very soon you won't have a choice if you're buying new. Fiesta / Ecosport. Dart / Cherokee.  Same formula. 

The price of the Suburban has gone up $1k a year over the last 10 years. 

V6 engines will soon be extinct in mid-size cars moving to cheaper 4-cylinder turbos. The manufacturers took that savings and still raised prices on the Turbo cars. 

Mercedes will sell you a base model stripped out 4-cylinder hatchback for just $33k. 

The Honda Insight is $2k cheaper than the Civic Si. 

The Lease only Honda Clarity is $199 a month $1700 down. A base Accord is $249 a month $2100 down.

Lincoln offers the MKZ as a Turbo-4 or Hybrid-4 either way, same price.

Toyota offers the Avalon or Avalon Hybrid with just a $1k price spread.

It's like artificial intelligence. Dumb now, smart later.

Never bet against it though.

And our old ways will be left to turn to dust, and then become extinct.

6 minutes ago, Suaviloquent said:

It's like artificial intelligence. Dumb now, smart later.

Never bet against it though.

And our old ways will be left to turn to dust, and then become extinct.

A.I. is the hot new Job market, gotta start out empty and learn.  

Nobody buys electrified Hondas.  So... giving them away is a necessity, and even then it has not worked.