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  • G. David Felt
    G. David Felt

    Mercedes-AMG Announce Two All-Electric Performance Saloons, Is It The Best or Nothing?

      Mercedes-AMG has announced the EQE 43 4MATIC and EQE 53 4MATIC BEVs and the question that must be asked is do these cars live up to the company's marketing tag line, "The Best or Nothing!" Review the technical details about these cars and tell us what you think!

    Mercedes-Benz has marketed for the last few decades with the tag line of "The Best or Nothing!" 

    This February, Mercedes-AMG, the performance arm of Mercedes-Benz announced the two newest members to the BEV family of cars, EQE 43 and EQE 53. These two cars will ride on the EVA2 electric luxury and premium platform exclusive to the AMG line. This platform has had particularly focused attention to the areas of the drive, brakes, sound, exterior and interior design and specific equipment, ensuring a dynamic and emotively appealing AMG driving experience for the AMG connoisseur. 

    22C0047_006.jpg

    This EVA2 platform will allow the following specifications for the EQE43 and EQE53:

    image.png

    One interesting observation is that Mercedes-AMG is not building to the 800 VOLT level that Porsche, Audi, BMW, VW, GM, Ford, Hyundai and Kia have all committed to building at which makes one wonder if their 80% recharge time in 15 minutes can be achieved. 

    AMG has stated that their models have always stood for "Emotionality". As such, the hallmark of the AMG Driving experience is an important one and one that will deliver in all three driving modes, Balanced, Sport and Powerful. These modes will be available in both the Authentic and optional Performance programs on the EQE53 with AMG Dynamic Plus Package. Before once thinks we are talking about the actual driving experience of how the car performs, this is actually the Audio experience of how the car sounds. AMG will use their auto sound system to deliver a unique sound experience using special speakers, bass actuator and a sound generator. This AMG Sound Experience is based on the current driving status, the selected drive program or the driver's wishes for both inside and outside audio experience.

    In regard to actual driving, the AMG platform will have AMG specific electric motors built into the front and rear axle for the ultimate performance. These motors have been built with an optimal balance of power, efficiency and noise comfort. The EQE43 motors have AMG specific tuning and control whereas the EQE53 will have additional adapted windings and laminations for higher currents and a specific inverter enabling higher engine speeds and more power which is noticeable during acceleration and top speed.

    Rear electric motors will have a six-phase design with two windings with three phases each delivering a strong magnetic field. The AMG-specific liquid cooling system will allow repeated acceleration maneuvers without any needed prep time. The transmission has an oil heat exchanger that also includes a preheated mode for cold starts to increase efficiency.

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    The battery pack for both of these cars is a 90.6 kWh, ten modules with a total of 360 pouch cells. The battery management system is tuned specifically for AMG. The advanced pouch design has a reduced cobalt content for a high density, high charge / discharge life cycle consisting of nickel, cobalt and manganese in a ratio of 8:1:1.

    The new battery design by Mercedes allows for short charging times using a charging system up to 170 kW of fast charging with direct current. The onboard charger allows charging from home at 11 kW or public using the 22 kW. Mercedes warrants the battery pack for 10 years and 250,000 kilometers (155,000 miles) whichever comes first.

    Mercedes has taken a copy of one feature that was first on Ford ICE autos with their Flex not having a gas cap but a gas filler seal around the door that you open to fuel the Flex. You have this here in how they have sealed the door to the charge port unlike Tesla with no seal on the door, but two rubber covers you have to apply to the ports. As seen in the picture below, you also have the rubber seals over the ports in addition to the door seal.

    21C0616_038.jpg

    The cars will have three levels of intelligent energy recuperation or what most people are familiar with as regeneration and can be activated via a switch on the steering wheel. You will have the ability to have one-pedal driving or traditional brake driving.

    AMG all-wheel drive system will continuously distribute torque between front and rear wheels based on driving situation. This is done checking 160 times per second and the torque will be balanced also depending on the actual driving mode of the powertrain. One can choose between Comfort, Sport and Sport+ where torque is changed from balanced in Comfort mode to a heavy rear-bias in the interests of greater lateral dynamics in Sport+ mode.

    The ride of these AMG cars is an adaptable AMG RIDE CONTROL+.  This air suspension with adaptive adjustable damping on a four-link front axle and multilink rear suspension. To quote the press release: 

    The adaptive adjustable damping uses two so-called pressure limiting valves. These continuously variable control valves located outside the damper allow the damping force to be adjusted even more precisely to different driving conditions and drive programs: one valve controls the rebound phase, i.e. the force generated when the wheel rebounds; the other controls the compression phase when the wheel compresses. The rebound and compression phases are controlled independently of each other. This technology makes it possible to increase comfort on the one hand, but also to make the driving dynamics even sportier on the other hand.

    The suspension control unit analyses data – including data from the acceleration and wheel path sensors – to adjust the damping force for each wheel in a few milliseconds to suit the situation. The AMG developers were able to significantly increase the spread between sportiness and comfort. Among other things, by widening the spread between minimum and maximum damping force characteristics, as well as even greater flexibility in characteristic mapping. By using the two adjustment valves, the damper is able to provide damping force adjustment across the full range of wheel vibrations. Thanks to the special design of the valves, the damper reacts quickly and sensitively to changing road surfaces and driving conditions.

    Another AMG standard for these cars is rear axle steering with turn out and turn in depending on the speed. Below 60 km/h the rear wheels turn in the opposite direction of the front wheels. At 60 km/h and faster the rear wheels turn in the same direction as the front wheels.

    These BEVs will also have the AMG DYNAMIC SELECT drive programs where the driver at a touch of a button can change to preset driving characteristics in five modes.

    image.png

    Due to the dynamic nature of these AMG Saloon cars, they will come with six-piston brake calipers in the front and single piston calipers in the rear. Standard brakes are 415x33 mm front and 378x22 rear. Optional AMG Ceramic brake system uses 440x40 mm in the front and only in conjuntion with the upgraded 21" rims versus the standard 20" rims.

    AMG has taken the design philosophy of the class leading EQS to a performance level with its one-bow lines and cab-forward design with a fastback allowing it to be clearly distinguishable from the ICE auto versions. Here you can see the difference between the 43 and 53.

    21C0616_001.jpg21C0616_027.jpg21C0616_031.jpg21C0616_036.jpg22C0047_004.jpg22C0028_001.jpg21C0617_032.jpg

    One will have to look very close as the differences are very subtle between the two.

    Interior design is where Mercedes says they have applied AMG dominated style-defining touches that the AMG buyer expects. The following list is just some of the points they say you will have inside these autos. AMG Hyperscreen is an optional upgrade on the dash.

    • Instrument panel and beltlines in space grey ARTICO man-made leather with NEOTEX grain and red topstitching
    • Door center panels and also transition from center console to instrument panel in black MICROCUT microfiber with red topstitching
    • AMG Performance steering wheel in Nappa leather, with flattened lower section, perforated in the grip area with silver-colored aluminum paddles for setting various recuperation levels, in addition to standard AMG steering wheel buttons
    • AMG sports pedals, AMG floor mats and door sill trims with AMG lettering (illuminated with exchangeable cover)

    EQE43 Dash

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    EQE53 Dash

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    Chairs for the interior with adaptable head rests.

    21C0617_037.jpg

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    Technical chart as per the press release:

    image.png

    Additional details can be read at the links below.

    Mercedes-AMG EQE: Two new all-electric performance saloons from Affalterbach - Mercedes-Benz Group Media

    Mercedes-AMG EQE, PAD, 2022 - Mercedes-Benz Group Media

    Latest pictures - Mercedes-Benz Group Media

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    ^ Here's where it's going to get truly hilarious.

    The 'go to' SMK play, sales volume = bestest, is never going to be mentioned again WRT MB's electrics.
    They ceded a full decade to Tesla in the segment and they're never going to catch up. MB is a distant follower, and with underwhelming & polarizing product here.

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    7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    But all other VW’s have a word name, except maybe GTI, but that is just short for Golf GTI.   The iD4 doesn’t match VW’s naming system and it’s worse car than the Kia, Hyundai or Mach E.  Just like their other SUVs are no match for the Asian SUVs.

    Mercedes electric cars are the same naming scheme as gas cars, just with EQ in front.  

    Hey BIFF, News for you, VW electric lineup of auto's are all in the same naming style as stupid as your German love fest brand Mercedes.

    image.png

    On top of this, VW just announced their ID.6.

    ID.6 | Volkswagen Newsroom (volkswagen-newsroom.com)

    image.png

    VW is not only ahead of Mercedes in delivering a true portfolio of electric autos, but EVs with some style and not a Jellybean blah look that so many here have stated are ugly.

    Per the press release: By 2023, Volkswagen will have launched a total of eight ID. models in China. The world premiere of the ID.6.01 in China sees Volkswagen continue to pursue its regionalisation strategy.

    How many Electrics does Mercedes have for sale in China alone?

    ONE, the EQC and that is a TURD as it has MAJOR Motor Failures per news.

    Mercedes-Benz EQC Owners In China Report Motor Problems (insideevs.com)

    Per the News: Some 300 owners have been involved in protests over the issue and how Mercedes has handled it thus far.

    New EQC owners in China are paying a premium for the electric SUV due in part to the fact that it's produced by Mercedes. However, it's problems like these that may be working to tarnish the iconic brand as it moves toward electrification. The brand, as part of its joint venture with BAIC Motor, already recalled nearly 800 EQC vehicles in China.

    Interesting that Mercedes says just add more coolant due to it being a cooling issue, the dealerships add it, shorts out motor. Dead BEV. 

    Sounds like The Best or Nothing? Guess Nothing is Best?

    Get Real, Mercedes like ALL Auto OEMs are having problems with quality and Mercedes right now is definitely NOT the BEST!

     

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    3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    @smk4565-A quote from A comparo between the EQS and Lucid Air. Regarding the EQS,

    Finish, fitment, and quality is typical Mercedes perfection, but materials are good, not great. There's a marked use of plastic where it should/would be metal on its traditional gas-powered namesake.”

     

    The rest of the EQS' cabin is relatively straightforward and familiar, though if we hold fast to the idea of this serving as the S-Class of EVs, the interior is the largest disconnect. There's plenty of limo-esque legroom, but thanks to battery packaging and overall odd proportions, rear passengers have a tall knee angle thanks to a high floor that could prove uncomfortable for some. Still, both front and back seats are large and very comfortable, lending a lounge-like feel to the whole experience.”

     

    and lastly (in the same comparison)

    ”Add to this poor visibility, high frontal cowl, acres of LED accent lighting, and the slab of infotainment screen, and this is one of the most inelegantly presented non-AMG Mercedes we've interacted with in some time, at least by some staffer's standards.”

     

    Now show us the “best or nothing” in any of the above statements and hands on review of said Mercedes. 

     

    Source: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-lucid-air-vs-mercedes-benz-eqs-electric-luxury-car-comparison-test-review/amp/

    Having sat in both EQS and S-class, the S-class has a better interior, and the dash/cowl on the EQS is rather high, I don't know why it is higher.  But keep in mind the S-class interior beats anything outside of Rolls-Royce or Bentley.  The EQS still has the best interior of any EV on sale now, and fit and finish quality as noted by the article, which Tesla does not have.  I would take the S580 all day long over the EQS580, but I would also take the S580 over any EV.  All these EV's are over priced, most $10-20k more than a similar vehicle form the same brand, at least the EQS costs the same as the similar gasoline model.

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    48 minutes ago, David said:

    Hey BIFF, News for you, VW electric lineup of auto's are all in the same naming style as stupid as your German love fest brand Mercedes.

    image.png

    On top of this, VW just announced their ID.6.

    ID.6 | Volkswagen Newsroom (volkswagen-newsroom.com)

     

     

    But the rest of the VW lineup is Taos, Tiguan, Atlas, Jetta, Passat, etc.  Why does 1 brand have two naming schemes?  Same can be said about Cadillac.  And likewise with Kia and the K5, Telluride, EV6.  Pick a freaking naming scheme and also calling cars EV1, EV2, EV3, EV4, etc is lazy.  Probably why VW Group global sales in 2021 were at a 10 year low, not a competitive line up.

    And Mercedes names before you go there mean something as C is for C-segment, E is executive segment, S is sonder-klase, or special class, Geländewagen means all terrain, etc.  

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    Naming "schemes" are there for the inane.
    So are ascending 'schemes' like X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7. Nursery school stuff.
    So is naming vehicles after government-defined 'segments' like 'C'. Could it be any more clinical.

    I hate all of it.

    At least at one point, decades ago, mercedes' named vehicles after engine displacement.  That had actual meaning to the product.  Of course, that proved to be short-of-sight when displacements changed but the advertising investment was built into the earlier numeric, so they lazily kept it and dismissed earlier claims with a 'Oh, it doesn't mean that which we said it did, anymore'.  BMW did this same sh!t with the 'i' suffix.

    Reminds me again of all the advertising hay Daimler tried to make over their ribbed taillight lenses 'keeping them clean from grime 'for safety!!'.... until (thankfully) the trend of heavily ribbed auto surfaces grew stale, mercedes dropped all ribbed taillights (and cladding) and forget all their 'scientific' claims there.

    Now we have still more wildly-inaccurate engine displacement monikers tied to vehicles with zero displacement from MB. 

    Lame, squared.

    Edited by balthazar
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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    But the rest of the VW lineup is Taos, Tiguan, Atlas, Jetta, Passat, etc.  Why does 1 brand have two naming schemes?  Same can be said about Cadillac.  And likewise with Kia and the K5, Telluride, EV6.  Pick a freaking naming scheme and also calling cars EV1, EV2, EV3, EV4, etc is lazy.  Probably why VW Group global sales in 2021 were at a 10 year low, not a competitive line up.

    And Mercedes names before you go there mean something as C is for C-segment, E is executive segment, S is sonder-klase, or special class, Geländewagen means all terrain, etc.  

    Try again Biff, Mercedes is not the Top Dog in Sales and while VW might have hit a low, they are still the top Dog. Daimler which includes Mercedes in this chart at the time for last year is almost $100 Billion behind VW.

    REMINDER, as you have stated and we all know, Mercedes is separate from Daimler now, as such, expect Mercedes to drop to around #12, 11, 10 at the best in the ranking of auto companies.

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    2 hours ago, David said:

    Try again Biff, Mercedes is not the Top Dog in Sales and while VW might have hit a low, they are still the top Dog. Daimler which includes Mercedes in this chart at the time for last year is almost $100 Billion behind VW.

    REMINDER, as you have stated and we all know, Mercedes is separate from Daimler now, as such, expect Mercedes to drop to around #12, 11, 10 at the best in the ranking of auto companies.

    Snag_31c06e5e.png

    Daimler(last year, now called Mercedes-Benz)  has 2 car brands, Smart and Mercedes, plus the commercial trucks that would have been in last year's revenue.  And Volkswagen has VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, Ducati, Scania and Man.   I did find Mercedes Car and Vans revenue for 2021 was $119.8 Billion, and Mercedes-Benz Mobility (the finance and insurance arm) made $30.5 Billion. So $150.3 billion combined, still makes them #5 on that list without Daimler Trucks and if you put Stellantis in there.   Tesla since they aren't on there was $53 billion.  Heck is Mercedes has a strong year they might beat Ford.  And I don't expect their 1 car brand to out-revenue the 14 combined brands over at Stellantis or VW.

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    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Having sat in both EQS and S-class, the S-class has a better interior, and the dash/cowl on the EQS is rather high

    Yeah, what do I know? I simply quoted actual reviews from actual people who actually drive them extensively and they all pretty much had the same opinions about the EQ sedans. 

    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    But the rest of the VW lineup is Taos, Tiguan, Atlas, Jetta, Passat, etc.

    Good f@#king god man! All of those cars are going bye bye once they go all EV, just like Benz issuing "EQ" in front of theirs. Furthermore, you talk a big game defending a company who has change their lettering on more than occasion. ML/GLK? GL/GLS? That's just for starters so please save us this bit about naming issues from a brand that doesn't even compete with Benz in the first damn place. Save that for Audi.

    5 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Now we have still more wildly-inaccurate engine displacement monikers tied to vehicles with zero displacement from MB. 

    Lame, squared.

    Shhhhh! He's not supposed to acknowledge that. Any Mercedes fan that can make excuses for the ugliness that is the EQS and EQE, is capable of ignoring anything that's right in front of their face.

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    I still don't get why they didn't put the big slab of glass in ALL EQS's, instead of cheaping out. It's a $102 grand car, for crap's sake, and it's supposed to inherit the 'flagship' beanie in some (unknown) year.  Escalade doesn't have a base trim with 2 iPads glued to a featureless dash; Cadillac puts it in every one.

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    13 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    Yeah, what do I know? I simply quoted actual reviews from actual people who actually drive them extensively and they all pretty much had the same opinions about the EQ sedans. 

    Good f@#king god man! All of those cars are going bye bye once they go all EV, just like Benz issuing "EQ" in front of theirs. Furthermore, you talk a big game defending a company who has change their lettering on more than occasion. ML/GLK? GL/GLS? That's just for starters so please save us this bit about naming issues from a brand that doesn't even compete with Benz in the first damn place. Save that for Audi.

    Shhhhh! He's not supposed to acknowledge that. Any Mercedes fan that can make excuses for the ugliness that is the EQS and EQE, is capable of ignoring anything that's right in front of their face.

    So VW is going to throw away brand equity in names like Tiguan, Jetta and Passat, for id3, id2, and id5?   Makes no sense.  Kia if they throw out names like Sorrento and Telluride (although new) for EV5 and EV9 is another bad move.   Imagine Chevy throwing out Silverado and Corvette because the new EV naming structure is CE1, CE2, CE3, etc, awful.  The Mercedes plan is to make an electric equivalent of every one of their gas models.  GM basically has the same plan forming, EV Silverado, Equinox, the Bolt is basically EV Trax/Trailblazer, EV Corvette (eventually), the Lyric is basically EV version of XT6, and so on.  These plans make sense because they are just going to map their current line and current names and make them electric, so they can retain current customers.  Not sure which Tiguan buyer is trading their car in to spend $15k extra on an id4 which they never heard of.

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    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    So VW is going to throw away brand equity in names like Tiguan, Jetta and Passat, for id3, id2, and id5?   Makes no sense.

    Question. Is this a VW thread or Mercedes thread? I’m asking because you keep harping on the same damn thing that clearly only matters to you. It just comes off as more deflection from the legitimate criticisms heaped towards your favorite brand. 
     

    That is what makes no sense around here. 
     

     

    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The Mercedes plan is to make an electric equivalent of every one of their gas models.

    And they are failing miserably at it this far. See previous this entire thread and supported articles as proof. All they are doing is ruining the names of the S Class and E Class with those boring and horrible designs that don’t even begin to resemble the cars they are meant to replace. Not even a semblance of “heritage” in there. Knowing that, it makes “keeping the name” seem pretty damn pointless. 

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    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The Mercedes plan is to make an electric equivalent of every one of their gas models.

    They're literally not doing that tho. Who ever heard of a 'eqs'? Isn't is going to remind (the eight) people who remember the failed Equus??

    On top of that, if MB really were the engineering company the ad men try to portray it as being, AND the brand was arguably at the zenith of it's popularity with the IC lineup.... wouldn't they find a way to take the existing bodies and drop them over a BE platform??  Tesla has a wonderfully low-slung Model S (despite being ancient now), but MB hands off a hastily-built pregnant slug you can't see out of going forward.  AND changes the name. 

    It's very weak..

    Edited by balthazar
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    2 hours ago, balthazar said:

    They're literally not doing that tho. Who ever heard of a 'eqs'? Isn't is going to remind (the eight) people who remember the failed Equus??

    On top of that, if MB really were the engineering company the ad men try to portray it as being, AND the brand was arguably at the zenith of it's popularity with the IC lineup.... wouldn't they find a way to take the existing bodies and drop them over a BE platform??  Tesla has a wonderfully low-slung Model S (despite being ancient now), but MB hands off a hastily-built pregnant slug you can't see out of going forward.  AND changes the name. 

    It's very weak..

    I don't think they want the EV to look the same as the gas car, although I would have preferred the electric cars look more like the existing design language.  

    Also I won't be surprised if other brands start copying the EQS styling language.

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    12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Also I won't be surprised if other brands start copying the EQS styling language.

    No one has, up until this point, and no one will if they have a set of eyes and read about the many criticisms of said design. Sorry but that is purely fanboy talk there. 

    14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I don't think they want the EV to look the same as the gas car

    Then the fact that they retaining part of the lettering scheme is 100% irrelevant and pointless. 

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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    I don't think they want the EV to look the same as the gas car

    Well; duh. 

    Unfortunately, they're following the path toyoter laid down- making a wildly different looking sedan just because it's electric. 
    What that says is mercedes' is dumping their existing design language for... this.  Unfortunately, it's crap.

    What that also says, were you to say it; that the existing design language "failed" because it's getting dumped.

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    On 3/5/2022 at 8:08 PM, smk4565 said:

    Daimler(last year, now called Mercedes-Benz)  has 2 car brands, Smart and Mercedes, plus the commercial trucks that would have been in last year's revenue.  And Volkswagen has VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, Ducati, Scania and Man.   I did find Mercedes Car and Vans revenue for 2021 was $119.8 Billion, and Mercedes-Benz Mobility (the finance and insurance arm) made $30.5 Billion. So $150.3 billion combined, still makes them #5 on that list without Daimler Trucks and if you put Stellantis in there.   Tesla since they aren't on there was $53 billion.  Heck is Mercedes has a strong year they might beat Ford.  And I don't expect their 1 car brand to out-revenue the 14 combined brands over at Stellantis or VW.

    According to the Mercedes-Benz group that makes up everything we have the following:

    On February 1, 2022, the previous Daimler AG was renamed Mercedes-Benz Group AG and Daimler Mobility AG became Mercedes-Benz Mobility AG. The former Daimler Trucks & Buses division was listed on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange on December 10, 2021. Figures within financial statements have therefore been split into continued and discontinued operations. In line with the newly formed Group divisions, the reporting structure and the prior-year figures have been adjusted accordingly. All figures are preliminary and unaudited.

    Mercedes-Benz Group revenue reached €168 billion (2020: €154.3 billion). The share from continuing operations was €133.9 billion (2020: €121.8 billion). Group EBIT was €29.1 billion (2020: €6.6 billion), thereof the share from continuing operations was €16.0 billion (2020: €6.1 billion). Adjusted EBIT, reflecting the underlying business, was €19.2 billion (2020: €8.6 billion). Group net profit was €23.4 billion (2020: €4.0 billion). The share from continuing operations was €11.1 billion (2020: €4.0 billion).

    In 2021, net profit excluding the deconsolidation result rose to €14.2 billion (2020: €4.0 billion). Earnings per share, excluding the deconsolidation result, rose by 280% to €12.89 (2020: €3.39).

    So the end result is we have a solid company but let's see as various section wind down how 2022 ends up as Compared to other auto companies, MB was down 5% over 2020 sales in auto's sold and the numbers for 2022 are not stellar yet either.

    2021 (Full Year) Global: Mercedes-Benz and Smart Sales Worldwide by Region and Model - Car Sales Statistics (best-selling-cars.com)

    Europe has even stricter air standards that started with 2022 and as per the report above, MB is expected to see continued decline in ICE sales while growth in electric, but not expected to offset the ICE decline yet.

    image.png

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    20 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Well; duh. 

    Unfortunately, they're following the path toyoter laid down- making a wildly different looking sedan just because it's electric. 
    What that says is mercedes' is dumping their existing design language for... this.  Unfortunately, it's crap.

    What that also says, were you to say it; that the existing design language "failed" because it's getting dumped.

    It isn't being dumped, here is the 2022 C-class, and the 2023 E-class spy shots look fairly similar.  This look isn't going anywhere, also this car looks way better than the current C-class, which I think looks worse than the 2008-2013 model.

    spacer.png

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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    It isn't being dumped, here is the 2022 C-class, and the 2023 E-class spy shots look fairly similar.  This look isn't going anywhere, also this car looks way better than the current C-class, which I think looks worse than the 2008-2013 model.

    spacer.png

    4 Banger E-Class versus V6 Cadillac, yea, I would take the Cadillac.

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    19 hours ago, David said:

    4 Banger E-Class versus V6 Cadillac, yea, I would take the Cadillac.

    The CT5 and XT5 have a 4-cylinder too, but if you mean a 6 cylinder CT5 is 4-cylinder E-class money, that's a valid comparison.  

    But also the C43, GLC43, SL43, etc are getting a 390 hp 4-cylinder, the C63/E63 a 640 hp 4-cylinder hybrid, so you are going to get what used to be V8 power with high gas mileage, which given the likelihood of $5 a gallon gas, that is going to look appealing.  

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    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The CT5 and XT5 have a 4-cylinder too, but if you mean a 6 cylinder CT5 is 4-cylinder E-class money, that's a valid comparison.  

    But also the C43, GLC43, SL43, etc are getting a 390 hp 4-cylinder, the C63/E63 a 640 hp 4-cylinder hybrid, so you are going to get what used to be V8 power with high gas mileage, which given the likelihood of $5 a gallon gas, that is going to look appealing.  

    Except the high gas mileage in a turbo charge performance sedan is not true. The whole Turbos on small engines give you V8 power with 4 banger gas efficiency is a lie.

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    11 minutes ago, David said:

    Except the high gas mileage in a turbo charge performance sedan is not true. The whole Turbos on small engines give you V8 power with 4 banger gas efficiency is a lie.

    And generally turbo 4s aren't known for their longevity and reliability, aren't they?  More stress...maybe I'm old school, but I still view 4s as something for small entry-level subcompacts and compacts, and some small sports cars...not something aspirational or worthy of being in a luxury car brand, IMO.  If I'm buying a luxury car, I'd want a 6 or a V8, not a plebeian 4 cyl..

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    55 minutes ago, David said:

    Except the high gas mileage in a turbo charge performance sedan is not true. The whole Turbos on small engines give you V8 power with 4 banger gas efficiency is a lie.

    Except an AMG CLA45 is faster around Virginia International Raceway than a Supra 3.0, ATS-V, Gulia Quadrafoglio, Panamera Turbo and Challenger Hellcat Widebody.  (Tied with a C6 Z06) 

    Although 20/29 mpg isn’t that good, the 48 volt I-6 Mercedes get around 22/30, but the CLA doesn’t have a mild hybrid system yet, the new C-class does, so we’ll have to see those mpg numbers, plus I think that dual clutch transmission on the CLA isn’t good on gas like the 9 speed torque converter automatic.

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    15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    ATS-V

    We all see what you did there.

     

    16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Panamera Turbo

    Panamera Turbo logged a 2.47.8 lap.
    CT5-V BW did a 2.49.4.
    CT4-V BW did a 2.55.6.
    Gulia Quadrafoglio did a 2.57.2.
    CLA45 did a 2.58.2.

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    On 3/7/2022 at 7:07 PM, smk4565 said:

    It isn't being dumped, here is the 2022 C-class, and the 2023 E-class spy shots look fairly similar

    Umm, yeah it is. Eventually, those IC models are being dumped for their EV counterparts and thus far (judging by the EQS and EQE), it literally doesn't look pretty. These changes you are referring to are all stop gaps while they transition to EV, so yes, they are getting dumped before the end of the decade.

    10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    (Tied with a C6 Z06) 

    You had to go two generations back to find a Vette it can run with? Really? That's your bar here?

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    I am just saying a turbo 4 especially is electrified in some way offers plenty of performance.  Obviously not as much as a V8 turbo, but let’s look at regular V6’s like the 300ish hp 3.5 liter Honda and Toyota V6, the 3.6 GM V6, those don’t even beat most turbo 4’s in torque.

     

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