Spying: Lincoln Continental Transitions From Concept to Production

 

Wings: as I said: if you consider a transverse-mount engine car to be true luxury, you're speaking a whole 'nother language. One, I may add, that has very few speakers.

On the other hand, I'm quite happy to discuss the Continental's chances of getting Buick to up their game, if indeed such a thing is required.

And lest we forget, decades of futile FWD styling exercises by Lincoln (and three different styling languages in thirty-six months!) render any PR fluff utterly null.

Lincoln needs that five billion dollar Cadillac fighting platform ASAP. This thing ain't gonna cut it.

Again.

 

FWD based and transverse mounting have nothing to do with the luxury of the car... and when 80% of BWW 1-Series owners think their car is FWD that should really tell you something. 

 

Your blame is misdirected.  You want to pin the failure of certain Lincoln models on the fact that they were front wheel drive, but in fact it was neglect on the rest of the car by Lincoln that caused the demise.   When the Continental switched from RWD to FWD in 1988 it went from Zero to Hero.  I owned an '85 Continental and really liked the car, but they were an absolute sales dud. When the FWD '88 Continental came on the scene, it was a huge sales surge and success for Lincoln.   What happened?   Lincoln neglected the car.  They left it without refreshes for too long and didn't offer an option of a V8 for the entirety of the first FWD generation.  A 140hp V6 in 1988 was questionable and a 160hp V6 in 1994 was suicide.  Even the Ford Tempo and Chevrolet Cavalier came with a 140hp V6 in 1994.   Also, Lincoln let the interiors of these cars age ungracefully.  That, along with wide spread issues with the air suspension turned off a lot of buyers when the 1995 model came around.   

 

The second FWD generation ran for 7 years... again neglected by Lincoln with only minor updates and a decidedly unluxury-like interior that could have served duty in the Windstar better than the Continental, the Continental name was put to rest in favor of the Lincoln LS.   The switch to RWD couldn't save that car from Lincoln's neglect and it was canceled after 6 years with basically zero updates.

 

The MKS is an embarrassment to the brand, not because of which wheels drive the car, but because of the so-called luxury appointments.

 

The same story repeats itself, nearly verbatim, over at Cadillac.   Though Cadillac had the sense to use 8-cylinder engines, the HT4100 was a reliability disaster on top of being low on power.  The downsized models in 1986 were not well received, but when the '92 Eldorado and '92 Seville came out, Cadillac was really back in the game.  Again sales soared. Again Cadillac ignored.  They let the Eldorado go for 10 years with only minor updates.  Imagine driving into a Cadillac dealership in 2002 in your 1992 Eldorado and driving out in basically the same car but with zero miles!!   The Seville fared better with a redesign and platform change in 1998, but by that time the drum beat for Cadillac to become the American BMW was too strong to overcome. 

 

The reasons these cars eventually failed has nothing to do with which wheels drove the car.  The Catera, the LS, the Mark VIII, the S-Type, the STS, the first SRX, the Q45, the M35/45, the J35, the GS, the K900, and I'm sure more that I'm not remembering, all have failed hard.... and they're all RWD.

 

What matters most is the experience.  If the Continental can deliver the luxury Lincoln is promising with AWD and sufficient performance. Buyers will come and not care which way the engine is facing.

 

So much I agree with here that I will just give all your remarks a resounding thumbs up!!!    

Wings: as I said: if you consider a transverse-mount engine car to be true luxury, you're speaking a whole 'nother language. One, I may add, that has very few speakers.

On the other hand, I'm quite happy to discuss the Continental's chances of getting Buick to up their game, if indeed such a thing is required.

And lest we forget, decades of futile FWD styling exercises by Lincoln (and three different styling languages in thirty-six months!) render any PR fluff utterly null.

Lincoln needs that five billion dollar Cadillac fighting platform ASAP. This thing ain't gonna cut it.

Again.

FWD based and transverse mounting have nothing to do with the luxury of the car... and when 80% of BWW 1-Series owners think their car is FWD that should really tell you something.

Your blame is misdirected. You want to pin the failure of certain Lincoln models on the fact that they were front wheel drive, but in fact it was neglect on the rest of the car by Lincoln that caused the demise. When the Continental switched from RWD to FWD in 1988 it went from Zero to Hero. I owned an '85 Continental and really liked the car, but they were an absolute sales dud. When the FWD '88 Continental came on the scene, it was a huge sales surge and success for Lincoln. What happened? Lincoln neglected the car. They left it without refreshes for too long and didn't offer an option of a V8 for the entirety of the first FWD generation. A 140hp V6 in 1988 was questionable and a 160hp V6 in 1994 was suicide. Even the Ford Tempo and Chevrolet Cavalier came with a 140hp V6 in 1994. Also, Lincoln let the interiors of these cars age ungracefully. That, along with wide spread issues with the air suspension turned off a lot of buyers when the 1995 model came around. The MKS is an embarrassment to the brand, not because of which wheels drive the car, but because of the so-called luxury appointments.

The second FWD generation ran for 7 years... again neglected by Lincoln with only minor updates and a decidedly unluxury-like interior that could have served duty in the Windstar better than the Continental, the Continental name was put to rest in favor of the Lincoln LS. The switch to RWD couldn't save that car from Lincoln's neglect and it was canceled after 6 years with basically zero updates.

The same story repeats itself, nearly verbatim, over at Cadillac. Though Cadillac had the sense to use 8-cylinder engines, the HT4100 was a reliability disaster on top of being low on power. The downsized models in 1986 were not well received, but when the '92 Eldorado and '92 Seville came out, Cadillac was really back in the game. Again sales soared. Again Cadillac ignored. They let the Eldorado go for 10 years with only minor updates. Imagine driving into a Cadillac dealership in 2002 in your 1992 Eldorado and driving out in basically the same car but with zero miles!! The Seville fared better with a redesign and platform change in 1998, but by that time beat the drum beat for Cadillac to become the American BMW was too strong to overcome.

The reasons these cars eventually failed has nothing to do with which wheels drove the car. The Catera, the LS, the Mark VIII, the S-Type, the STS, the first SRX, the Q45, the M35/45, the J35, the GS, the K900, and I'm sure more that I'm not remembering, all have failed hard.... and they're all RWD.

What matters most is the experience. If the Continental can deliver the luxury Lincoln is promising with AWD and sufficient performance. Buyers will come and not care which way the engine is facing.

Bottom Line: if the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, Lincoln is the Joker.

 

 

Wings: as I said: if you consider a transverse-mount engine car to be true luxury, you're speaking a whole 'nother language. One, I may add, that has very few speakers.

On the other hand, I'm quite happy to discuss the Continental's chances of getting Buick to up their game, if indeed such a thing is required.

And lest we forget, decades of futile FWD styling exercises by Lincoln (and three different styling languages in thirty-six months!) render any PR fluff utterly null.

Lincoln needs that five billion dollar Cadillac fighting platform ASAP. This thing ain't gonna cut it.

Again.

FWD based and transverse mounting have nothing to do with the luxury of the car... and when 80% of BWW 1-Series owners think their car is FWD that should really tell you something.

Your blame is misdirected. You want to pin the failure of certain Lincoln models on the fact that they were front wheel drive, but in fact it was neglect on the rest of the car by Lincoln that caused the demise. When the Continental switched from RWD to FWD in 1988 it went from Zero to Hero. I owned an '85 Continental and really liked the car, but they were an absolute sales dud. When the FWD '88 Continental came on the scene, it was a huge sales surge and success for Lincoln. What happened? Lincoln neglected the car. They left it without refreshes for too long and didn't offer an option of a V8 for the entirety of the first FWD generation. A 140hp V6 in 1988 was questionable and a 160hp V6 in 1994 was suicide. Even the Ford Tempo and Chevrolet Cavalier came with a 140hp V6 in 1994. Also, Lincoln let the interiors of these cars age ungracefully. That, along with wide spread issues with the air suspension turned off a lot of buyers when the 1995 model came around. The MKS is an embarrassment to the brand, not because of which wheels drive the car, but because of the so-called luxury appointments.

The second FWD generation ran for 7 years... again neglected by Lincoln with only minor updates and a decidedly unluxury-like interior that could have served duty in the Windstar better than the Continental, the Continental name was put to rest in favor of the Lincoln LS. The switch to RWD couldn't save that car from Lincoln's neglect and it was canceled after 6 years with basically zero updates.

The same story repeats itself, nearly verbatim, over at Cadillac. Though Cadillac had the sense to use 8-cylinder engines, the HT4100 was a reliability disaster on top of being low on power. The downsized models in 1986 were not well received, but when the '92 Eldorado and '92 Seville came out, Cadillac was really back in the game. Again sales soared. Again Cadillac ignored. They let the Eldorado go for 10 years with only minor updates. Imagine driving into a Cadillac dealership in 2002 in your 1992 Eldorado and driving out in basically the same car but with zero miles!! The Seville fared better with a redesign and platform change in 1998, but by that time beat the drum beat for Cadillac to become the American BMW was too strong to overcome.

The reasons these cars eventually failed has nothing to do with which wheels drove the car. The Catera, the LS, the Mark VIII, the S-Type, the STS, the first SRX, the Q45, the M35/45, the J35, the GS, the K900, and I'm sure more that I'm not remembering, all have failed hard.... and they're all RWD.

What matters most is the experience. If the Continental can deliver the luxury Lincoln is promising with AWD and sufficient performance. Buyers will come and not care which way the engine is facing.

The 1-Series is BMW overreaching because they need the extra sales volume to remain viable as a large automaker. If it sells it sells because of the badge on the hood. The Lincoln does not have that, uh... luxury. Like Cadillac it has to work harder just to tread water in the eyes of a buying public that is sceptical about Detroit iron. It isn't rational, but neither are the 80 percent of 1-Series buyers, right?

Bottom Line: if the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, Lincoln is the Joker.

 

Actually, that's the problem for the 1-Series... it doesn't sell.  BMW struggles to move just 12,000 1-series and 2-series each year... so much so that the 1-series itself is actually dead in the US and BMW is only selling the 2-series here. So much for that saviour of RWD.

You're right about the definition of insanity.... that's why Lincoln is saying they are going with a real luxury interior in the Continental instead of the low-rent MKS interior they're doing now.    You seem set on blaming the drive wheels of the car while ignoring the whole host of other issues MKS has.  I think you're wrong. I think the reason for Lincoln's failures have been 60% interior appointments and 40% exterior styling.

Our wires are crossed. The NEXT 1-Series is FWD-based. The old one, while RWD, was styled like a turnip

Our wires are crossed. The NEXT 1-Series is FWD-based. The old one, while RWD, was styled like a turnip

Oh!  So you admit that the cause of a sales dud could be something other than which wheels drive the car!?

I did that in the other thread. Using those exact words.

I did that in the other thread. Using those exact words.

So how about we refrain from calling a car a failure for being FWD based when we haven't even seen the production version yet.....?

-searches for post where he addressed that as well

-can't find it, throws up hands, repeats

The Continental will, in all likelihood, be a serious wake-up call for Buick and the Lexus ES.

But let's not get too excited about the styling either. It's not like it's 100% approval from the peanut gallery on that score either.

I'll put it this way: if Cadillac put out a 400hp FWD-based sedan with old-school styling and traditional "quiet luxury" tastes, they'd be pillored for it. I know this because that's what the XTS-VSport was.

The main problem with the likes of the MKS, Catera, S-type, Mark VIII, etc is they are half assed products.  Mostly spawned in a hasty combination of platform share, engine share, mediocre styling, low rent interiors, etc.  Those cars took short cuts regardless of platform.  If you want a good luxury car it has to be purpose built, it can't be built out of a Fusion or Malibu. 

What are the best front wheel drive  luxury cars on the market today?  The Volvo S80, Lexus ES350, Cadillac XTS?   Compared to the Rolls-Royce Phantom, Mercedes S-class, Bentley Mulsanne, and BMW 7-series on the rear wheel drive group.  I think I'd rather have a car in the second group over the first.

-searches for post where he addressed that as well

-can't find it, throws up hands, repeats

The Continental will, in all likelihood, be a serious wake-up call for Buick and the Lexus ES.

But let's not get too excited about the styling either. It's not like it's 100% approval from the peanut gallery on that score either.

I'll put it this way: if Cadillac put out a 400hp FWD-based sedan with old-school styling and traditional "quiet luxury" tastes, they'd be pillored for it. I know this because that's what the XTS-VSport was.

That's because Cadillac is trying to not be quiet luxury. They're trying to be BMW. 

The main problem with the likes of the MKS, Catera, S-type, Mark VIII, etc is they are half assed products.  Mostly spawned in a hasty combination of platform share, engine share, mediocre styling, low rent interiors, etc.  Those cars took short cuts regardless of platform.  If you want a good luxury car it has to be purpose built, it can't be built out of a Fusion or Malibu. 

 

What are the best front wheel drive  luxury cars on the market today?  The Volvo S80, Lexus ES350, Cadillac XTS?   Compared to the Rolls-Royce Phantom, Mercedes S-class, Bentley Mulsanne, and BMW 7-series on the rear wheel drive group.  I think I'd rather have a car in the second group over the first.

The first group isn't even trying to compete with the second group.  The S80 is out of date, the ES350 is unimpressive and bland... but neither of those issue have to do with driving wheels.   Hell yeah I'll take an XTS (V-sport) over a CTS.  I'd take it over a dull and harsh riding 5-series also. 

Maybe, just maybe they'll make something amazing. It better deliver an S-Class rivaling interior and quietness; and pillowy soft ride; because if it can't be a sports-sedan; it shouldn't try to be one at ALL. Just be the best FWD Lexus; I reckon. But I really do like the styling though.

Maybe, just maybe they'll make something amazing. It better deliver an S-Class rivaling interior and quietness; and pillowy soft ride; because if it can't be a sports-sedan; it shouldn't try to be one at ALL. Just be the best FWD Lexus; I reckon. But I really do like the styling though.

It's going to be AWD only. 

Perhaps. Or perhaps 400hp FWD-based stuff don't do it for people. I'm learning toward the latter.

Perhaps. Or perhaps 400hp FWD-based stuff don't do it for people. I'm learning toward the latter.

That's the thing too. 400 hp only? 

Why no V8? Any semblance of luxury MUST include rare hardware. Such as V8s to start with, V12s for the real expensive cars. I just think that this Continental is caught in a dead space. 

Perhaps the Focus RS AWD bones might give the car decent handling chops; but will it deliver utter luxury from its massive platform sharing? I think it can only be achieved through massive compromises. For one thing; I predict that the Continental will be a porker even more so than the S-Class. Not that Cadillac and BMW are about to prove cars in this segment don't have to be...

Perhaps. Or perhaps 400hp FWD-based stuff don't do it for people. I'm learning toward the latter.

Neither does 400hp RWD-based stuff

Infiniti Q60 - Averaging 350 a month sales

Infiniti Q70 - Averaging 500 a month sales

Kia K900 - Averaging 100 a month sales

Eqqus - Averaging 100 a month sales

BMW 6-series - Averaging 400 a month sales

BMW 7-series - Averaging 875 a month sales

MB CLS - Averaging 400 a month sales

Lexus GS - Averaging 600 a month sales

And yet

Cadillac XTS - Averaging 2000 a month sales

Lincoln MKS - Averaging 660 a month sales

All the Continental has to do is sell at the same rate as the MKS does today and it will be in the same sales league as some of the "best" from Germany.

But at what cost to mainstream Fords? Wings was all excited about MXZ sales being up until I pointed out that Fusion sales were down a lot more.

A lot of those MKS and XTS sales are fleet and livery market, and the MKS and XTS start at $45k  Not quite the starting point of those Germans.  There is speculation that the Continental will be $60-80,000, good luck selling a fancy Taurus for that money.

A lot of those MKS and XTS sales are fleet and livery market, and the MKS and XTS start at $45k  Not quite the starting point of those Germans.  There is speculation that the Continental will be $60-80,000, good luck selling a fancy Taurus for that money.

Cite.  I don't see any livery MKSes and only rarely see livery XTSes.  Neither have much presence in the rental fleets and I rent all over the country on almost a weekly basis. 

Even if 2/3s of the XTS sales are fleet and livery (highly unlikely), the XTS is still selling at the same or better rate as the RWD cars in that list.  What's your excuse for the GS... or the Q70?  Why hasn't the holy god of RWD descended to save them?  The GS is still selling worse than the old RWD STS did and it is a recent redesign.

But at what cost to mainstream Fords? Wings was all excited about MXZ sales being up until I pointed out that Fusion sales were down a lot more.

Is there going to be a Ford model in the $50k - $75k range for the Continental to compete with?

If the Continental actually goes for 50-70k it has far bigger worries than ripping off Fusion sales.

I get that this thing has a killer show car interior and reclining rear seats. But really, that's about all it has that's different than anything else Lincoln has tried to make work since I was in high school. And I'm sorry, but I've been down that road too many times before. Cadillac needed three generations of the CTS before they were finally able to overcome the doubts and skepticism of the folks who cover this business. Mark my words-when this thing hits the ground, the nice words will go away and they will call it what it is-same old same old. All sizzle and no steak from Lincoln-again.

Conti should be priced about $65K, and a luxury bargain.

It's competition, or at least the product that it will be most compared to, is the $80K CT6.  Cross town rivals once again.  

Look once again at the two cars above.  GM stretched the hood so long, that the rear end looks awkward.  Note how it's rear wheels look like they are pushed forward underneath the rear seat.  Conti has better lines.

Nonsense-the Cadillac's long hood/short deck are the epitome of luxury. I can understand a Ford guy not getting that, seeing as how it's been so long since they've done such a thing. To these eyes, the Lincoln is just Bentley-Lite. And not just to these eyes, either.

I understand proportions just fine, thank you.  Works in many aspects of nature, even humans. What  I see with the Conti is a long, lean, well proportioned athletic stance, wearing the latest styled Armani suit.

What I see in the Cadillac, is a gold chain wearing German wannabe, hitting the gym to build glory muscles only, that don’t balance with it’s short, skinny legs….and dressed in a hand me down suit that is wearing thin.

But that’s just me

And why is there so much attention on the conti instead of the CT6?

Oh wait, I know the answer to that one too.

I happen to like both.  I think the base price of the CT6 will be lower than $80k though. I'm guessing it will be mid to high $60k range.

I understand proportions just fine, thank you.  Works in many aspects of nature, even humans. What  I see with the Conti is a long, lean, well proportioned athletic stance, wearing the latest styled Armani suit.

What I see in the Cadillac, is a gold chain wearing German wannabe, hitting the gym to build glory muscles only, that don’t balance with it’s short, skinny legs….and dressed in a hand me down suit that is wearing thin.

 

But that’s just me

 

And why is there so much attention on the conti instead of the CT6?

Oh wait, I know the answer to that one too.

I have to totally disagree with you.

The conti is a Fat Pig with a big barrel belly, very traditional Obese American car.

The CT6 realized it needs to compete in more than just america and has gone on a workout to be more competitive. It has an Athletes defined body with lines.

If you want a Lazy Boy Jelly Bean, then fine go for your Cont, I would rather have a Thoroughbred which is the CT6.

The CT6 has a long hood and short deck because that is how Mercedes and BMW design cars.   They surely didn't make the hood on the CT6 that long because it had to be to fit the V6 under it.  The Continental from the side looks a lot like the last Saab 9-5.

Pricing will be interesting to see on both cars.  For the Continental, I think they need to make 400 hp standard and start it at $49k.  They need to go for absolute wow factor or it will just get over looked.  

The CT6 is several magnitudes above the CTS V-Sport, which starts at $60K.  So my guess, $75-80K MSRP.

The trouble is, nobody is paying attention to the CTS, so why would the much costlier and cloned CT6 be any more successful.

I think the Conti brings not only a traditional freshness to Lincoln, but a heck of a lot of luxury and same performance for what should be around $65K.

The CT6 has a long hood and short deck because that is how Mercedes and BMW design cars.   They surely didn't make the hood on the CT6 that long because it had to be to fit the V6 under it.  The Continental from the side looks a lot like the last Saab 9-5.

 

Pricing will be interesting to see on both cars.  For the Continental, I think they need to make 400 hp standard and start it at $49k.  They need to go for absolute wow factor or it will just get over looked.  

they should match the Genesis 5.0 for base price. $51k.

The CT6 is several magnitudes above the CTS V-Sport, which starts at $60K.  So my guess, $75-80K MSRP.

The trouble is, nobody is paying attention to the CTS, so why would the much costlier and cloned CT6 be any more successful.

 

I think the Conti brings not only a traditional freshness to Lincoln, but a heck of a lot of luxury and same performance for what should be around $65K.

The CT6 will be a 2.0T with RWD at the base price, thus my guess.  The 3.0TT with AWD and all the extra tech will be in the range you are citing. 

I really want to see the Conti sans that sill chrome and with a more realistic and less silly looking set of rims. 

I am going on a limb here.  Short of the Escelade and CTS-V Caddy is also going urbo V6 across most of it's models, at least for now. 

As stunning as that concept was, it had a 3.8L pushrod motor in it just to package an engine and have it roll.

 

But this Conti is so much more stunning.

 

 

 

And that stunning face.....soooo much nicer than MKR toothed concept.

The tinting glass roof by button, is just off the charts wickedly 'gotta have.'

IMO, less stunning than that MKR(?).. and MB has had tinting glass for a few years already.

Perhaps. Or perhaps 400hp FWD-based stuff don't do it for people. I'm learning toward the latter.

400hp in an AWD car.. and it's supposed to be running through the fancy AWD system of the Focus RS so it should still be able to get the power down(all 400hp) pretty easily.

 

Perhaps. Or perhaps 400hp FWD-based stuff don't do it for people. I'm learning toward the latter.

That's the thing too. 400 hp only? 

 

Why no V8? Any semblance of luxury MUST include rare hardware. Such as V8s to start with, V12s for the real expensive cars. I just think that this Continental is caught in a dead space. 

 

Perhaps the Focus RS AWD bones might give the car decent handling chops; but will it deliver utter luxury from its massive platform sharing? I think it can only be achieved through massive compromises. For one thing; I predict that the Continental will be a porker even more so than the S-Class. Not that Cadillac and BMW are about to prove cars in this segment don't have to be...

 

V8 isn't rare hardware. Especially if it is in n/a guise. Then it's just a v8. twin turbo v6 has more fancy hardware and tech than a dohc di v8. While I love me some V8 I think if they are going for the sot and comf luxury then probably a quieter ttv6 is the key to that. Just my 2 cents.

I really want to see the Conti sans that sill chrome and with a more realistic and less silly looking set of rims. 

 

I am going on a limb here.  Short of the Escelade and CTS-V Caddy is also going urbo V6 across most of it's models, at least for now. 

Yeah, I want to bail on all that chrome as well. Other than that, I think it looks really good and classy. It doesn't look sporty, but it looks luxury.

 

I really want to see the Conti sans that sill chrome and with a more realistic and less silly looking set of rims. 

 

I am going on a limb here.  Short of the Escelade and CTS-V Caddy is also going urbo V6 across most of it's models, at least for now. 

Yeah, I want to bail on all that chrome as well. Other than that, I think it looks really good and classy. It doesn't look sporty, but it looks luxury.

 

It's wierd, i really didn't care for it at first, but it is growing on me.  We need to see it the way a Continental was intended, all  black.

^ 100% agree. All Black.

Perhaps. Or perhaps 400hp FWD-based stuff don't do it for people. I'm learning toward the latter.

400hp in an AWD car.. and it's supposed to be running through the fancy AWD system of the Focus RS so it should still be able to get the power down(all 400hp) pretty easily.

I don't doubt that the car will be competent. What I doubt very much is Lincoln's ability to make a production version that will distinguish itself. I already mentioned that this is nearly identical to the XTS-VSport in concept. And look how it turned out. Drew mentioned that the pricing should be competitive with the Koreans in he segment-ouch for prestige. And wings shot himself in the foot once again with his failed diss of the CT6's styling.

I am glad to be in a place where I can criticize without being accused of being a troll. I harbour no ill will towards Lincoln. But by the same token, I'm not going to blow sunshine up their tuckus over a concept car that is a rehash of a failed product strategy.

They. Must. Do. Better.

If I am wrong about the Conti styling, then tell us bong, why did the Conti completely steal the spotlight from the CT6.

Waiting…..

CT6 extended the front too long at the expense of the rear proportions, which looks strange for a sedan. Don’t believe me, then draw a line from the rear window trim line and explain why it is so rearward of the wheel, when it is best placed tangential to it, or outboard of it.  It is currently inboard, and forward, by an awkward amount.

Cadillac

Can

Do

Better

 

 

Perhaps. Or perhaps 400hp FWD-based stuff don't do it for people. I'm learning toward the latter.

400hp in an AWD car.. and it's supposed to be running through the fancy AWD system of the Focus RS so it should still be able to get the power down(all 400hp) pretty easily.

I don't doubt that the car will be competent. What I doubt very much is Lincoln's ability to make a production version that will distinguish itself. I already mentioned that this is nearly identical to the XTS-VSport in concept. And look how it turned out. Drew mentioned that the pricing should be competitive with the Koreans in he segment-ouch for prestige. And wings shot himself in the foot once again with his failed diss of the CT6's styling.

I am glad to be in a place where I can criticize without being accused of being a troll. I harbour no ill will towards Lincoln. But by the same token, I'm not going to blow sunshine up their tuckus over a concept car that is a rehash of a failed product strategy.

They. Must. Do. Better.

 

I think they should price against the Genesis because the Continental is a new-comer (Return-comer?) to this segment and they need to build cred before they can go around demanding $75k.   It's not that I think the Genesis is that fantastic of a car, but the Genesis 5.0 is roughly similar in size and stated output though only RWD. All the Continental needs to do is beat the Genesis on luxury (which is a fairly low bar) and it should do fine because there is more prestige to the Continental name.   In short, the Genesis is the lowest common denominator in price.

I don't see any rehash of a product strategy here. Lincoln hasn't put out a Continental level Continental since at least 1987... but that has nothing to do with the driving wheels.  You seem to want to hang the entire strategy on the drive wheels, all 4, without seeing what they do with the interior.   If they MKS the interior, I will be first in line to bash it.   I am willing to wait until I see the car until I declare Lincoln's strategy a success or failure. 

If I am wrong about the Conti styling, then tell us bong, why did the Conti completely steal the spotlight from the CT6.

Waiting…..

 

CT6 extended the front too long at the expense of the rear proportions, which looks strange for a sedan. Don’t believe me, then draw a line from the rear window trim line and explain why it is so rearward of the wheel, when it is best placed tangential to it, or outboard of it.  It is currently inboard, and forward, by an awkward amount.

 

Cadillac

Can

Do

Better

Continental stealing the CT6's spotlight is debatable at best, and the only thing that makes that conversation viable is that the Continental was more of a surprise, where the CT6 was a known quantity.  Even if we accept your statement of the stolen spotlight (which I think is highly blown out of proportion), it isn't because the Continental is a better, or even better looking, car.  On the contrary, the CT6 is a much better looking vehicle, with some actual style instead of the blandness that leaves the Continental with no real identity.  That is why people were comparing it to the Bentley and other vehicles, not because it copied anything else, but because the look is so bland and nondescript it could easily look like anything else depending on the angle and where someone's mind is at when they look at it.

 

If I am wrong about the Conti styling, then tell us bong, why did the Conti completely steal the spotlight from the CT6.

Waiting…..

 

CT6 extended the front too long at the expense of the rear proportions, which looks strange for a sedan. Don’t believe me, then draw a line from the rear window trim line and explain why it is so rearward of the wheel, when it is best placed tangential to it, or outboard of it.  It is currently inboard, and forward, by an awkward amount.

 

Cadillac

Can

Do

Better

Continental stealing the CT6's spotlight is debatable at best, and the only thing that makes that conversation viable is that the Continental was more of a surprise, where the CT6 was a known quantity.  Even if we accept your statement of the stolen spotlight (which I think is highly blown out of proportion), it isn't because the Continental is a better, or even better looking, car.  On the contrary, the CT6 is a much better looking vehicle, with some actual style instead of the blandness that leaves the Continental with no real identity.  That is why people were comparing it to the Bentley and other vehicles, not because it copied anything else, but because the look is so bland and nondescript it could easily look like anything else depending on the angle and where someone's mind is at when they look at it.

 

Thanks for your opinions.

By the way, how will customers keep the names straight?

CT6 or CTS not only sounds the same, it looks the same.

By the way, how will customers keep the names straight?

 

CT6 or CTS not only sounds the same, it looks the same.

If they can tell apart MKT, MKS, MKX, MKZ, etc. I don't think CTS and CT6 will be a problem.  Thanks again for showing the weakness of your arguments, by the way, by giving more dismissive replies.  You are very predictable that way, whenever you don't have a proper retort you just make a dismissive statement about what was said and then try to change the subject.

This man speaks truth. ^^^

Drew: even if they do a reasonably good job on the interior, what does that give you over, say, the Equus or Genesis? Ford is using a FWD-based platform, TTV6, and derivative styling to provide what they call "quiet" luxury. Problem is, they're doing it at a similar price point to an outfit that offers a V8, RWD, and derivative styling. From Korea.

it is the same strategy as the MXZ, MKZ, and MXC, with a different name. Based on Lincoln's past track record, it seems reasonable to withhold the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

 

 

Perhaps. Or perhaps 400hp FWD-based stuff don't do it for people. I'm learning toward the latter.

400hp in an AWD car.. and it's supposed to be running through the fancy AWD system of the Focus RS so it should still be able to get the power down(all 400hp) pretty easily.

I don't doubt that the car will be competent. What I doubt very much is Lincoln's ability to make a production version that will distinguish itself. I already mentioned that this is nearly identical to the XTS-VSport in concept. And look how it turned out. Drew mentioned that the pricing should be competitive with the Koreans in he segment-ouch for prestige. And wings shot himself in the foot once again with his failed diss of the CT6's styling.

I am glad to be in a place where I can criticize without being accused of being a troll. I harbour no ill will towards Lincoln. But by the same token, I'm not going to blow sunshine up their tuckus over a concept car that is a rehash of a failed product strategy.

They. Must. Do. Better.

 

How is what we saw not distinguishable? You would know from a decent distance what that car is if it were coming up on you. And we've only seen pictures. It is similar in design to the XTS in concept but it is standard AWD and 400hp. Whereas the XTS is 306hp and FWD. The only thing that is similar is that they are on a FWD ARCHITECTURE. And that is literally the only thing you can continue to harp on.. It isn’t even FWD. it is only going to be FWD when the cruise control is set. Other than that it will be continually modulating power to each wheel.

He compared it to the Koreans for price/size purposes. Not in class and luxury and performance overall.

He didn't shoot himself in the foot, it was an opinion.

This is in no way a "rehash" of a failed product strategy. Everything about it is all new. If other cars take things from it, that's different. But THIS is brand new, everything about it.

We all seem to be discussing our 'opinions' on these two vehicles just fine sean, without anyone's feelings getting hurt.

Why do you have to break that streak?  I even said thank you.

This man speaks truth. ^^^

Drew: even if they do a reasonably good job on the interior, what does that give you over, say, the Equus or Genesis? Ford is using a FWD-based platform, TTV6, and derivative styling to provide what they call "quiet" luxury. Problem is, they're doing it at a similar price point to an outfit that offers a V8, RWD, and derivative styling. From Korea.

it is the same strategy as the MXZ, MKZ, and MXC, with a different name. Based on Lincoln's past track record, it seems reasonable to withhold the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

lol.. right back at the "FWD" platform..

As far as a true luxury(not luxury sports sedan) a FWD architecture makes more sense by giving more room to the interior for a given footprint.  If it is going for the "quiet luxury" then the driven wheels means absolutely nothing at all. It will be all about pampering, correct? If you're sitting shotgun in a car going the speed limit do you honestly care about which wheels have power going to them? As long as the people inside the cabin are being pampered.

My point about the names, clearly, was that Lincoln is breaking the trend with names.

We all seem to be discussing our 'opinions' on these two vehicles just fine sean, without anyone's feelings getting hurt.

Why do you have to break that streak?  I even said thank you.

And I received that thank you just as genuinely as you meant it.

Guys.

The MKS, AWD and all, didn't work.

The MKZ, AWD and all, didn't work.

The MXC is struggling to move 2,000 a month and is an also-ran in comparos.

I have sales numbers to back me up. I have comparo results to back me up. The styling thing is subjective. But again, Lincoln has burned through three distinct styling languages in three years, and the latest one is a highly derivative one.

Names, schnames. Give me RESULTS.