Rumorpile: Lincoln MKT Replacement Could Be Based On Next-Gen Explorer

 

 

 

One fact alone propels the CT6 well beyond the Continental.  A RWD chassis.  Let alone all of the other art and science that has gone into the Cadillac.

No doubt the CT6 appears to have 'good bones' and some engineering prowess to back it up.

Trouble is, it will be sitting next to the CTS, which looks nearly identical, is only moderately different in size, and costs $20K less.  Oh, and that is not selling that well to begin with.  So I think the Cadillac could fail based on a combination of too much cost like the failed ELR, and consumer disinterest in that segment (large sedan).  CUV's are the hot ticket right now, plain and simple. Cadillac needs to invigorate that ASAP.  

 

All the major luxo makes cars look similar to each other. An Audi A8 has a similar look to an A6 and a BMW 5 Series looks very similar to a 7 Series. We won't even begin to talk about the Lexus lineup. The CT6 looks no more like a CTS than the four cars mentioned. It's called a family of cars for a reason. They do need to kick up the CUV program though as much as I hate that genre.

 

Having a familiar look is fine, typically, and probably only becomes a potential concern when they are so close in size.  So it would be that concern combined with the huge price delta, that should spell concern for sales. 

 

You are right on one of those (CUVs). The rest is unsubstantiated opinion from an employee of the competition. Love or hate the A&S design language, but it NEVER gets confused for anything but a Cadillac. No one will ever say it looks like a Buick or a Chevy, or any of the competition for that matter. Originality is a rarity in the automotive world and that is where Cadillac trumps the competition, like it or not. They need more variants than anything else, end of story. One only has to look at the Germans to see why. 

Also, as I pointed out in my initial rebuff to your PR fluff, Fusion sales are down even as MXZ sales are up. If what you say is true and top-trim Fords compete with Buick, my little sales blurb seems to indicate they also compete in-house with Lincoln. It's NOT a cause for celebration if your fancy grocery-getter is up 3,000 when its platform mate is down 10,000.

Lincoln needs to follow Cadillac's lead on product, and soon.

Also, as I pointed out in my initial rebuff to your PR fluff, Fusion sales are down even as MXZ sales are up. If what you say is true and top-trim Fords compete with Buick, my little sales blurb seems to indicate they also compete in-house with Lincoln. It's NOT a cause for celebration if your fancy grocery-getter is up 3,000 when its platform mate is down 10,000.

Lincoln needs to follow Cadillac's lead on product, and soon.

As you stated, Lincoln is up double digits yet again, while Cadillac has been down or flat for nearly 18 months straight.

What were you saying about following Cadillac again?

Stealing sedan sales from Ford doesn't count as success. Lincoln's five billion dollar premium platform investment just puts the final nail in your argument's coffin.

Now, let's please move on. We've both seen all this before.

Nothing different that I see so far in the Ford and Lincoln model playbook from what Toyota and Lexus are doing w/ their volume models..the Lexus CUVs each share a platform w/ a mainstream Toyota model, and the ES shares a platform with the Camry...so this Continental would be to the Fusion how the ES is to the Camry..

This point is one of the big hangups I've had with guys who cite Lexus sales numbers-Lexus is both Cadillac and Buick to Toyota's Chevy. I don't like the LS a whole lot, but I have no problem calling it a luxury car. The ES, not so much. To be fair, Lexus has begun to differentiate Lexus from mainstream Toyotas again with the extra emphasis they're putting on stuff like the IS.

Lexus seems to be pursuing a two tier strategy---soft FWD based models like the ES and RX for the mainstream entry-lux,  and their serious models (RC, IS, GS, LS) RWD based to compete w/ Cadillac and the Germans..  Cadillac has a similar strategy.  Lexus seems to emphasizing performance w/ the F models and the violent styling, hoping it catches on against the established Germans.

Cadillac is gradually moving away from that strategy. The XTS is being discontinued and the ELR won't be too far behind. That makes their entire car lineup RWD-based. The CUV/SUV lineup needs additional work, but the cars are now quite separate from Buick.

What Lincoln should do it move the Navigator to the Explorer platform to make it a unibody SUV.  The Explorer is the same width as the Navigator, but the Navigator is 8 inches longer.  I am sure they could lengthen the Explorer a little bit, even if it was to 203 inch overall length.  Then you can use the 2.7 and 3.5 liter Ecoboost V6s because there is less weight to pull around, the ride, handling and fuel economy would be better, and they could probably price it in the $50s, rather than low $60s.  That would create a better selling vehicle. 

The Navigator and Escalade had big early success because they were able to sell on bling factor and bigger was better.  But just like the body on frame sedans (Town Car, Fleetwood, Brougham) got put out to pasture because the unibody imports were better, the same will soon happen to SUVs.  The Infiniti QX80 and Lexus GX and LX are basically all dead, while the German SUVs thrive, and Jaguar, Bentley, Maserati, and Lamborghini are all getting into the mix.

Lincoln's path to crossover success is the MKC (renamed) starting around $33k, MKX becomes Aviator starting at $42k, Explorer based Navigator starting at $55k.  That creates a small-medium-large set up, undercuts the Germans on price, keeps the MKC and MKX priced like a Lexus or Acura.

And yet it was the Body On Frame Escalade that just smoked everyone in MT's big SUV comparo:

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/1505_the_big_test_large_luxury_suvs/

As long as Ford uses a premium platform and sweats the details, it'll be fine. But make it too close to the Explorer, and all bets are off.

And yet it was the Body On Frame Escalade that just smoked everyone in MT's big SUV comparo:

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/1505_the_big_test_large_luxury_suvs/

As long as Ford uses a premium platform and sweats the details, it'll be fine. But make it too close to the Explorer, and all bets are off.

Escalade uses a Chevy platform, complete with solid axles.

Indeed, the basic bones are the exception to my rule-they are premium enough on their own merits. MT's opinion, not mine... but I'm not gonna argue the point

But let's not forget the bespoke interior and suspension tweaking. As I said, it takes a lot of sweating the details to bring down Range Rovers and Benzes.

MT also tested the V6 GL450 vs the V8 Escalade.  Put the GL550 in there and it wins all the performance categories, although that might not have changed their outcome.  I do agree with MT that that GL interior is looking a bit dated, it is too utilitarian looking.  The C-class and S-class have really moved away from that back to a luxury design though.

The Escalade is the best executed and best marketed body on frame SUV, and that is why it has had success.  They have also kept the formula the same and improved it over the generations.  The other big body on frame SUVs just look hopelessly dated by comparison to the Range Rover and GL.  And the BMW X7 is coming.  Look at where the Navigator, Infiniti QX and Lexus LX570 were 10 years ago, compared to now.  They are all falling in sales, they could all be gone in another 10 years.

I'll see your GL550 and raise you the possibility of an Escalade with an LT4.

The Lexus LX570, like the Escalade, is built on more pedestrian stuff (Land Cruiser). Toyota sells a buttload of Land Cruisers, so it ain't going anywhere.

As long as the Titan exists, so will the QX, at least in theory. A QX with a 5.0 Cummins would be interesting.

Ford just plain got lazy with the Navigator. The next one may or may not have F-Series bones, but Dearborn has (hopefully) learned their lesson as far as crapping the bed on product longevity.

MT also tested the V6 GL450 vs the V8 Escalade.  Put the GL550 in there and it wins all the performance categories, although that might not have changed their outcome. 

And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.   More power doesn't always mean better results.... and with the GLs FloatMatic suspension, the only performance metric a 550 version might win is in the straight line. 

But there won't be an Escalade with the LT4 and even if there were, there is an AMG GL63 to top that and likely a V12 GL600 on the way, and last I checked GM, Ford and Toyota don't have a V12 in the arsenal to compete with that.

The Navigator and other big SUVs have gotten tired because the companies that make them got lazy, that is true.  But if you were planning on making a luxury SUV, why would you choose a pick up chassis as your base?  Pick up trucks don't really scream luxury ride and handling.  This is why the NAvigator should move to a unibody chassis, they could probably cut 1,000 lbs of weight, while still using the Ecoboost 3.5 liter and make a better riding, better handling, quick, more fuel efficient SUV than the Escalade, and maybe Lincoln could get back in the game. 

What a steaming pile of fanboyism.  I'm sure Cadillac will miss all 11 of those GL600 sales.  Again, they can't even make enough Escalades to meet demand.   Cadillac is getting known for their supercharged V8s... so IF Cadillac were to do a V-series Escalade to go up against the AMG G-Class they could go that route...

My guess, if they feel the need for a GL550 competitor, they'll  use a version of the TTV8...  4.0 liters at around 500 hp and 500 lb-ft of torque. 

"Why would you use a pickup chassis as your base?"

Because, as the Escalade shows, it just plain works. GM builds a bazillion of them a year so the economics of scale are insanely good.

When I hear comments about how Lincoln got lazy with the new Navigator, and then think about how they updated it all the while working on the all new aluminum Navigator launching next year.....which is essentially 2 vehicles at the same time....then I just smile a bit because I know all to well how it will send the competition scrambling yet again in no time.

So yeah, a BOF Navi, the way it should be to have some capability, with far less weight, all new powerful D35 and 10 speeds of motivational factors.....means lots of goodness.

Additionally, there will be a unibody 3 row as well to replace the MKT.

Oh, and I'm also curious how going unibody will help the Navigator drop 1,000 lbs. when the difference in that test between the GL and the Navigator is only 500lbs and the GL is a good bit smaller (6 inches shorter in height and length, 2 inches narrower in girth). 

With all this talk of maybe the MKT going away...I say good....this vehicle does nothing for Lincoln image wise. Yup...Im tackling the issue on another angle.

Luxury vehicles...whether loud and brash or quiet luxury as Lincoln's current direction seems to be the one FoMoCo chose for Lincoln, has to be....visually pleasing...either way...this MKT is...ugly...just to be politically correct. Nobody wants to be seen in an ugly car...

Had Lincoln worked on the looks of this thing a bit better, maybe it would have fared a better fate...

With that being said...in this guise...I think the MKT is stunning...

Of all the current world hearses across the planet...I think the MKT is the classiest and the best visually appealing. The MKT's natural lines fit well with the classic hearse lines...

Id be happy if this was my last ride in a vehicle...but if I had a choice....Cadillac would win out...this Caddy.

Oh, and I'm also curious how going unibody will help the Navigator drop 1,000 lbs. when the difference in that test between the GL and the Navigator is only 500lbs and the GL is a good bit smaller (6 inches shorter in height and length, 2 inches narrower in girth).

"Why would you use a pickup chassis as your base?"

Because, as the Escalade shows, it just plain works. GM builds a bazillion of them a year so the economics of scale are insanely good.

Because the competition hasn't beat them yet.  10-15 years ago pick up based big SUVs were all there were.  Then the GL game along and beat all the other guys and even beat the Escalade in sales a couple times.  Add the X7 in there, updated Q7 and slowly they may eat away at those truck based sales.

Remember when the Explorer, Blazer, Envoy, 4Runner and all those 90s SUVs were body on frame?  Then the Lexus RX showed the world a luxury crossover, soon all those body on framers were gone, and every brand pushed crossovers because they rode and handled better, got better gas mileage etc.

The Escalade is well done, GM is the best at big body on frame SUVs.  But that is a dying breed.  The Tahoe/Escalade my survive as the last of the breed while Toyota, Ford, Nissan give up that market.  The Escalade hits that sweetspot of huge, bling, flashy, and pop culture icon, but it is going to be hard for Lincoln to copy all that.  That is why they should attack from a different angle.

Oh, and I'm also curious how going unibody will help the Navigator drop 1,000 lbs. when the difference in that test between the GL and the Navigator is only 500lbs and the GL is a good bit smaller (6 inches shorter in height and length, 2 inches narrower in girth). 

A Navigator is near 6,000 lbs, a loaded Ford Explorer is 4,800.  Even if they add extra luxury goodies and a couple inches of lenth to the Explorer, they could keep the weight to 5,000 lbs.  1,000 less than the current Navigator.

The ML and GL both are rather heavy, that is something Mercedes should address on the next generation, as they share a chassis.  They should be able to get 200 lbs of weight out of both.

 

"Why would you use a pickup chassis as your base?"

Because, as the Escalade shows, it just plain works. GM builds a bazillion of them a year so the economics of scale are insanely good.

Because the competition hasn't beat them yet.  10-15 years ago pick up based big SUVs were all there were.  Then the GL game along and beat all the other guys and even beat the Escalade in sales a couple times.  Add the X7 in there, updated Q7 and slowly they may eat away at those truck based sales.

 

Remember when the Explorer, Blazer, Envoy, 4Runner and all those 90s SUVs were body on frame?  Then the Lexus RX showed the world a luxury crossover, soon all those body on framers were gone, and every brand pushed crossovers because they rode and handled better, got better gas mileage etc.

 

The Escalade is well done, GM is the best at big body on frame SUVs.  But that is a dying breed.  The Tahoe/Escalade my survive as the last of the breed while Toyota, Ford, Nissan give up that market.  The Escalade hits that sweetspot of huge, bling, flashy, and pop culture icon, but it is going to be hard for Lincoln to copy all that.  That is why they should attack from a different angle.

 

Dying breed?

Maybe for everybody else...Cadillac is marketing their Escalade the way they should be...playing to their strengths...

Big...brash...loud...American...and THAT includes being body on frame...

Maybe in the future...Cadillac will have to change...but if that were to happen...that would mean that the public interest and taste for the Tahoe....the Yukon....the Suburban...and the unrelated Jeep Wrangler in this family of BOF SUVs would be changing...and I dont see that happening in the near future...

And NO!

The 'Gator is actually the ORIGINAL AMERICAN in your face BOF luxury SUV...technically...one could argue Bravada....but not big...not brash...not full sized...

Lincoln let the 'Gator play second fiddle to the 'Slade.

If Lincoln did not let the 'Gator rot on the vine....perhaps the 'Slade would be the one suffering on the old GMT 900 platform today...

It aint hard for Lincoln to recapture what Cadillac has with their 'Gator...they could ride the 'Slade's coat tails...the 'Gator still has mojo left...its up to Lincoln to tap into that mojo...

PS: The M-B beat the 'Slade in sales a couple of times...because M-B...German...but it really says a  lot for GM and Cadillac to fight off the M-B and continue to play to Cadillac's past history for big, brash, loud and obnoxious cars...IE...playing to their strenghts...EVERYBODY loves a big and arrogant Cadillac...

As I said the Escalade hits the sweet spot for those that want a big, brash, arrogant American car.  There is a customer base that loves that and the Escalade has a loyal following.  But other full size body on frame SUVs have been declining, CAFE is getting higher, global emissions regulations higher, in time some of them will go away.  When Ford was selling over 400,000 BOF Explorers every year who would have thought less than 10 years later the model would actually get discontinued for a while before returning as a unibody.

If Lincoln merged the MKT and Navigator into one new unibody product (still using Navigator name) they could have a more competitive vehicle.  But instead we know they'll just keep rebadging Fords with minimal changes because that is the cheapest way to design a car.  That is why the Navigator is dated as can be, because the Expedition is dated as can be.

You are harping against a particular technology for no particular reason.... just like your rants about pushrods.... you ignore the performance focusing entirely on the "How".

There's nothing with questioning technology. But if it delivers the goods, then you're basically paddling upstream. Hey, if the GenV smallblock idled like a solid-lifter 396 and delivered flush-toilet fuel economy I'd be the first to point fingers.

But it doesn't, so I don't.

You are harping against a particular technology for no particular reason.... just like your rants about pushrods.... you ignore the performance focusing entirely on the "How".

But what works for Cadillac isn't working for Lincoln.  The F150 sits on the market too long before getting chassis updates, and is the F150 chassis what you want to use as the basis of your BMW X7, Merc GL, Maserati Levante, and Jag-LR products.

Lincoln isn't a tier one brand, making a Navigator off the Explorer platform gives them 380 hp/460 lb-ft turbo V6 in a 5,000 lb vehicle for $55k.  That matches up extremely well against top end Tahoes, Enclaves, MDX, undercuts the Escalade a lot in price while offering better acceleration and fuel economy.  It gives Lincoln a chance.  Lincoln doing a half assed job turning and F150 into an Escalade competitor hasn't worked since like 2006 when the previous generation Escalade stepped it up.

There's nothing with questioning technology. But if it delivers the goods, then you're basically paddling upstream. Hey, if the GenV smallblock idled like a solid-lifter 396 and delivered flush-toilet fuel economy I'd be the first to point fingers.

But it doesn't, so I don't.

 SMK hates any technology or process that Mercedes doesn't use, until they use it... then it's the best evar.   He'll ignore every single performance stat that might beat is beloved brand and then moves the goal posts to favor them. 

 

You are harping against a particular technology for no particular reason.... just like your rants about pushrods.... you ignore the performance focusing entirely on the "How".

But what works for Cadillac isn't working for Lincoln.  The F150 sits on the market too long before getting chassis updates, and is the F150 chassis what you want to use as the basis of your BMW X7, Merc GL, Maserati Levante, and Jag-LR products.

 

Lincoln isn't a tier one brand, making a Navigator off the Explorer platform gives them 380 hp/460 lb-ft turbo V6 in a 5,000 lb vehicle for $55k.  That matches up extremely well against top end Tahoes, Enclaves, MDX, undercuts the Escalade a lot in price while offering better acceleration and fuel economy.  It gives Lincoln a chance.  Lincoln doing a half assed job turning and F150 into an Escalade competitor hasn't worked since like 2006 when the previous generation Escalade stepped it up.

 

The F-150 just got a chassis update and the Navigator is moving to it. 

The current Navigator went on sale in 2007 model year.  The new one is coming in 2017?  10 years on the market!  And a lot of those body panels you can tell came from an Expedition.  There has to be a better way to produce your most expensive model.

There was of course 

The current Navigator went on sale in 2007 model year.  The new one is coming in 2017?  10 years on the market!  And a lot of those body panels you can tell came from an Expedition.  There has to be a better way to produce your most expensive model.

There was of course several updates in between, so not exactly 10 years of nothing.  But regardless, these are low volume products.  Just how frequently should they change something that is defined more by function then form? Its like, why change the styling of a van every few years, when it is basically a functional box to begin with.  Just how much change can be implemented on the greenhouse, which is the most costly change to make?  Ford kept that mostly alone, especially during the periods when people were running from thirsty SUV's and into CUV's, where obviously Ford proliferated nicely.

But all that aside, the new SUV's will benefit from many things, including installed flexible manufacturing systems that will allow a greater degree of differentiation.  And before you know it, we will be discussing just how revolutionary Ford's approach truly is for the segment, as the competition scrambles to catch up.  

No matter who you are, you simply can't lead in everything, all the time, and still profit.  Nobody has ever accomplished that.

The preceding post perfectly encapsulates the cluelessness of Ford in its pursuit of the luxury vehicle customer. Bonus points for mentioning flexible manufacturing systems as if they're somehow cutting-edge stuff (seeing as how I helped install the one in GM Oshawa in 2009, I can assure one and all they are not). Double bonus points for openly talking up Ford's upcoming dominance in the segment when they have shown precisely zilch to this point.

And as to the last claim: that description has been achieved, albeit only once: it sounds just like GM, circa 1955-1970.

Flexible manufacturing systems have proliferated throughout the industry in recent years, as everyone knows, even displaced GM workers  -- but they do so typically during a significant model changeover, like which is happening with the new aluminum SUV's that are launching next year.  

And sorry, GM never lead in all things, all the time. Ever.

Look, I'm sorry that it took a "displaced GM worker" to school a self-proclaimed "Ford powertrain engineer" in the history of flex manufacturing. But it IS somehow symbolic

And yes, GM was that dominant back in the day. It was so dominant in fact that the Feds would occasionally play around with enacting antitrust legislation against them.

Glad I could clarify that

Lincoln Navigator sales averaged 33,517 for its first 10 years on market 1997-2006.

Then the GL went on sale.  The Navigator has averaged 9,510 sales per year since 2008 model year.  Ford's approach is getting hammered.

So I was 'schooled' because it was something GM did as well as Ford.

Thanks for making my points again.

So I was 'schooled' because it was something GM did as well as Ford.

 

Thanks for making my points again.

If your point was that Ford follows where GM leads then by all means, prattle on :D

 

So I was 'schooled' because it was something GM did as well as Ford.

 

Thanks for making my points again.

If your point was that Ford follows where GM leads then by all means, prattle on :D

 

Fanboy of the year statement? lol

So I was 'schooled' because it was something GM did as well as Ford.

 

Thanks for making my points again.

If your point was that Ford follows where GM leads then by all means, prattle on :D

Fanboy of the year statement? lol

I don't force him to post silly PR posts, nor do I force him to write dismissive replies when he's called on them.

But sho' 'nuff I'll point out how ridiculous he looks when he does it.

 

 

 

So I was 'schooled' because it was something GM did as well as Ford.

 

Thanks for making my points again.

If your point was that Ford follows where GM leads then by all means, prattle on :D

Fanboy of the year statement? lol

I don't force him to post silly PR posts, nor do I force him to write dismissive replies when he's called on them.

But sho' 'nuff I'll point out how ridiculous he looks when he does it.

 

..but to say Ford follows where GM leads.. is quite the fanboyism.

Correcting is one thing, Preaching about the ole holy GM is another.

Spare me the sanctimony. If I wanted to read Ford PR I'd go to their website.

Bottom Line: you can dress wings up, but you can't take him anywhere. And lord knows he's been in a LOT of places. I ain't here to hold his hand.

Now: onward!

Cut the BS  bong. I simply prognosticated how the coming new Aluminum SUV’s will have the competition scrambling – because they will.  That is almost a given. And I only made that remark after your constant bashing of the current Ford product.  I can’t help that you are so jealous of Ford that you spend your days trashing every single move and product they make, and then pretend that it is all constructive criticism that Ford fans just don’t like – as you then praise 99% of GM products as being superior.  Your intentions are clear as glass. 

Cut the BS bong. I simply prognosticated how the coming new Aluminum SUV’s will have the competition scrambling – because they will. That is almost a given. And I only made that remark after your constant bashing of the current Ford product. I can’t help that you are so jealous of Ford that you spend your days trashing every single move and product they make, and then pretend that it is all constructive criticism that Ford fans just don’t like – as you then praise 99% of GM products as being superior. Your intentions are clear as glass.

Your speculation about the aluminum Navigator sending the competition scrambling is especially laughable. It didn't overturn the apple cart when the F-150 did it. And it isn't invincible in this segment either. Those of us who know what's what know that Land Rover's calling card for DECADES was aluminum bodied SUVs. Ford ain't leading the way here-not by a long shot.

SO... PR fluff, debunked.

Again.

And again.

And again.

And...

 

 

 

 

So I was 'schooled' because it was something GM did as well as Ford.

 

Thanks for making my points again.

If your point was that Ford follows where GM leads then by all means, prattle on :D

Fanboy of the year statement? lol

I don't force him to post silly PR posts, nor do I force him to write dismissive replies when he's called on them.

But sho' 'nuff I'll point out how ridiculous he looks when he does it.

 

..but to say Ford follows where GM leads.. is quite the fanboyism.

 

Correcting is one thing, Preaching about the ole holy GM is another.

 

Bong is a complete hypocrite, who chastises nonstop anyone who talks up Ford, yet holds/chats everything GM makes as top shelf.

Why don't you stop whining and address my post about your aluminum SUV claims?

Because it's easier to whine, that's why.

Same old wings. Same old crap.

Now, seriously... If you cannot address my post, let us move on.

All sides.... to your corners.

..I know he's a hypocrite.. I've called him on it Many-o-times. He usually just doesn't respond at all to it. He does exactly what he hates other people do.

Ooops, sorry I was trying to respond whilst that must have been posted.

Why don't you stop whining and address my post about your aluminum SUV claims?

Because it's easier to whine, that's why.

Same old wings. Same old crap.

I was obviously talking about cross town competition that actually matters, as Large full sized SUV's that are capable of also towing a house.

Where does LR fit into that in NA?

All sides.... to your corners.

Excellent modding.

More sites could learn from this simple reminder presented in a fun way.

Bravo sir.

All sides.... to your corners.

Okie dokie.