Lincoln's Primary Focus: Core Segments

Long way to go, sure, but there has never been a more exciting time to be a Lincoln fan.

Just two new products (after the Continental) by 2020?? That's a thoroughly underwhelming claim.

Just two new products (after the Continental) by 2020?? That's a thoroughly underwhelming claim.

I agree. It's a step in the right direction but still seems like the same thing I have heard three different times over the last fifteen years (ever since the LS debuted). 

 

Just two new products (after the Continental) by 2020?? That's a thoroughly underwhelming claim.

I agree. It's a step in the right direction but still seems like the same thing I have heard three different times over the last fifteen years (ever since the LS debuted). 

 

Agree that it is underwhelming but if they do it right and get these 3 products dead on right and continue to improve the others, this is a long distance race, not a sprint and as such, they need a long distance plan to distance themselves from FORD.

Sadly many FORD/Lincoln dealers at least in Washington state are one mega dealer so you go in and find fords on the same floor as Lincoln. This needs to change as it hurts Lincoln more than Ford.

Need Separate show rooms as well as product.

Agreed on 2 new products by 2020.  Some luxury makers put out 2-3 new products per year.  I bet one of the new products is a Lincon version of the Explorer.  That will be the the 3 row crossover bigger than MKX.  Then Lincoln will have an Escape, Edge, Explorer and Navigator clone.  Which will help with their mission to distance themselves from Ford.

The 2nd product I bet is a Focus based Lincoln sedan that they will try to call a 3-series competitor.   When you look at luxury market sales, 3-series is by far the #1 seller, C-class and Lexus IS are up there too.

Still shocked as to why there isn't a rear drive Lincoln using the Mustang platform.   

Because there's no way to effective way to peddle a pony car as a luxury car unless you peddle the luxury car* as the pony car

*(with cosmetic surgery everywhere and emphasis on V8 and heritage and wickedness)

Rebadging a Mustang as a Lincoln does not a luxury car make.

Lincoln has far bigger plans going forward than repeating what they have been criticized for doing too much of in recent years.

Okay, what about after 2020?

What then? is that the review time? Is Lincoln worthy of keeping?

They're only worthy as long as Ford is willing to bear the expense of making them. Making a Lincoln coupe on a Mustang is a no-brainer. Heck, I'd be the first the high-five an executive that comes to his/her senses to do so. Because it's easier to mask the current S550 chassis faults when it's a plush personal coupe. Do it Lincoln, people want it, it's just some design change, no need for extraneous engineering. AWD, and they've got something for someone who wants different everyting.

Brand not heard of, plus a car based on a dying luxury concept - there is a buyer for that, and Lincoln could easily beat Genesis or Inifinti at it. 

I am not saying badge job a Mustang.  The Mustang is bigger than a 3-series though.  Mustang has a 107 inch wheelbase, are Ford engineers not smart enough to put a 3-4 inch stretch on that wheel base to make it 110 inch and make a small rear drive sedan that is a 185 inches long?  Engines are no problem you have the 2.3 turbo 4 that Lincoln already uses, you could use the 2.7 turbo V6.  

Lincoln's problem is everything they make is a Ford chassis and they even share some body panels and hard points on the interior.  How about Lincoln create a car from scratch?  

Rebadging a Mustang as a Lincoln does not a luxury car make.

 

Lincoln has far bigger plans going forward than repeating what they have been criticized for doing too much of in recent years.

A more ambitious automaker would have developed a premium RWD platform and spun an affordable performance coupe off of it.

Ford's ambitions appear to lie elsewhere. To say the least.

I am not saying badge job a Mustang.  The Mustang is bigger than a 3-series though.  Mustang has a 107 inch wheelbase, are Ford engineers not smart enough to put a 3-4 inch stretch on that wheel base to make it 110 inch and make a small rear drive sedan that is a 185 inches long?  Engines are no problem you have the 2.3 turbo 4 that Lincoln already uses, you could use the 2.7 turbo V6.  

 

Lincoln's problem is everything they make is a Ford chassis and they even share some body panels and hard points on the interior.  How about Lincoln create a car from scratch?  

That epitomizes my biggest criticism of Lincoln. Ford just isn't allowing any ambition for Lincoln to be great. They gotta get on the bandwagon and dare greatly.

The promises that Ford made about Lincoln for years and years have not been satisfied. Even CD6, and Lincoln exclusive powerrtrains were made on shaky agreements. 

It's not that there's glaring issues with sharing engines. I totally understand how Cadillac product plan-nerds/fans must have gritted their teeth how the ATS-V would not end up getting a V8 as an option, a world class V8 from a Corvette, not from a Camaro as some try to spin it as.

one of the primary reasons the ATS-V got the turbo V6 rather than the V8 is because it allowed the engineers to place the engine lower and move the mass further back in the chassis to improve balance.  They weren't gritting their teeth on that one, it was an engineering decision.

10-15 year plan sounds like a long time, but then again, if the goals are high, the ascent takes longer.

But for me, it's the journey, not just the destination. Lincoln will be the talk of the town come January, with the reveal of the Conti and of course what is most certainly the Aviator concept.  Those two vehicle alone will replace the poor selling MKS and MKT.  And of course the alum Navigator is not far behind.  So although their long term plans may reach far out there, I have little doubt their short term product plans will do wonders to invigorate the brand.

What does that even MEAN?

Lincoln has had three styling languages in four years, and were supposed to trust their vision for the next decade and a half?

You want to impress me, Lincoln?

D6. Stat. Nothing else is gonna cut it, especially with the Koreans bringing it with Genesis.

'trust' has little to do with style directions past to yore.  You purchase what is in front of you, that you either like or dislike....and more will like this.

And yes I do trust a brand who is trying hard, taking risks and re-inventing itself repeatedly, if it feels it's not at a level it needs to be.

The hardest-working man is a drowning one. If you ain't got a strategy you ain't got nothin'.

Lincoln ain't got nothin'.

The hardest-working man is a drowning one. If you ain't got a strategy you ain't got nothin'.

Lincoln ain't got nothin'.

says you...and several other haters.

And there it is, the "haters" term. When one has nothing left to debate constructively, it makes an appearance.

Lincoln isn't taking risks. They continue to re-engineer Fords, and they continue an asinine level of engine/powertrain sharing. The existence of the Edge Sport 2.7EB is answering a question no one asked, and blatantly steals exclusivity from the slick new MKX. An Edge Sport with 300 hp/310 lb-ft from the 2.3T would have been sufficient.

Their sudden dramatic change in design language is perplexing, especially when the new face is widely seen as derivative and the recent "split wing" models have been praised for their original and handsome appearance.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

One Ford: the millstone around Dearborn's neck. The glass ceiling that it cannot penetrate.

The Camaro is all the proof you need to know that the above statements are true.

Just two new products (after the Continental) by 2020?? That's a thoroughly underwhelming claim.

I thought that myself at first. Then I thought about it and it isn't that far out from what they've been doing. I mean we just received a "new" Navigator(2015), MKC(2015) and MKX(2016). The Continental will be out in 2017 along with the MKZ so we're looking at 2 new vehicles in 3 years..(2018-2020) not great but nothing terrible for a small market company. That is a 6 car company that expanded 1 car last year 1 car next year and 2 of the previous 5 are all new by 2017.. not really that bad. I mean they only have 6 vehicles in their lineup right now after the MKC was added.

'trust' has little to do with style directions past to yore.  You purchase what is in front of you, that you either like or dislike....and more will like this.

And yes I do trust a brand who is trying hard, taking risks and re-inventing itself repeatedly, if it feels it's not at a level it needs to be.

Explain all of the risks involved in rebadging a car as opposed to making their own platforms? I feel like they do the opposite of taking risks. Don't get me wrong, I REALLY like the MKC and MKX but that doesn't mean they have taken any serious risks with anything in their lineup. The biggest risk will be the Continental.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

One Ford: the millstone around Dearborn's neck. The glass ceiling that it cannot penetrate.

The Camaro is all the proof you need to know that the above statements are true.

lol, Classic 'Bong Camaro plug.

The Camaro is the most solid evidence that trickle-down works. In time there will probably be more examples (especially if Omega spreads to Buick). That's not a plug for the product. That's a plug for the system-a system that Ford is planning to copy eventually with D6.

 

'trust' has little to do with style directions past to yore.  You purchase what is in front of you, that you either like or dislike....and more will like this.

And yes I do trust a brand who is trying hard, taking risks and re-inventing itself repeatedly, if it feels it's not at a level it needs to be.

 

Explain all of the risks involved in rebadging a car as opposed to making their own platforms? I feel like they do the opposite of taking risks. Don't get me wrong, I REALLY like the MKC and MKX but that doesn't mean they have taken any serious risks with anything in their lineup. The biggest risk will be the Continental.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

One Ford: the millstone around Dearborn's neck. The glass ceiling that it cannot penetrate.

The Camaro is all the proof you need to know that the above statements are true.

lol, Classic 'Bong Camaro plug.

 

Risks?

Sure.

Looking back a few years, there was plenty of risk. Some of which good, some not so.

1.       Navigator was a risk, and really started the full sized luxury SUV segment

2.       Blackwood was quite the risk

3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day.

4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too.

5.       MKX was somewhat risky.

6.       Several design languages (and designers), also a risk.

7.       Hybrids

8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest.

9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon.

10.   Did I miss anything?

11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk.

Anyway, far more risky than what they were doing in 1995, when sales were high and competition was low.

And going forward, what they are doing with flexible platforms would hardly be considered risky, but in fact brilliant.

So risk is not just throwing an existing V8 into a low volume niche sedan.

And there it is, the "haters" term. When one has nothing left to debate constructively, it makes an appearance.

 

Lincoln isn't taking risks. They continue to re-engineer Fords, and they continue an asinine level of engine/powertrain sharing. The existence of the Edge Sport 2.7EB is answering a question no one asked, and blatantly steals exclusivity from the slick new MKX. An Edge Sport with 300 hp/310 lb-ft from the 2.3T would have been sufficient.

 

Their sudden dramatic change in design language is perplexing, especially when the new face is widely seen as derivative and the recent "split wing" models have been praised for their original and handsome appearance.

Exactly. What is the "risk" in a new nose job? Want to take a risk? A proper RWD/AWD Lincoln coupe would be a "risk". A real RWD Continental would be a "risk". Putting a new nose on the same face is not a "risk".

Now, let me finish my haterade. I'm still thirsty.

Still shocked as to why there isn't a rear drive Lincoln using the Mustang platform.   

If such a car was made, you'd be the first to declare it unsellable because it's a Lincoln based on a pony car.

Still shocked as to why there isn't a rear drive Lincoln using the Mustang platform.

 

If such a car was made, you'd be the first to declare it unsellable because it's a Lincoln based on a pony car.

True. But the rest of us would hail it as a better way forward that Jaguarified Fusions.

And there it is, the "haters" term. When one has nothing left to debate constructively, it makes an appearance.

 

Lincoln isn't taking risks. They continue to re-engineer Fords, and they continue an asinine level of engine/powertrain sharing. The existence of the Edge Sport 2.7EB is answering a question no one asked, and blatantly steals exclusivity from the slick new MKX. An Edge Sport with 300 hp/310 lb-ft from the 2.3T would have been sufficient.

 

Their sudden dramatic change in design language is perplexing, especially when the new face is widely seen as derivative and the recent "split wing" models have been praised for their original and handsome appearance.

Nonsense.

I have plenty to debate with and counter with and factualize with and have clearly done so aplenty.

But when ignorance comes forth with a statement that Lincoln ‘has no plan’ then I call a spade a spade…..hater.

 

And there it is, the "haters" term. When one has nothing left to debate constructively, it makes an appearance.

 

Lincoln isn't taking risks. They continue to re-engineer Fords, and they continue an asinine level of engine/powertrain sharing. The existence of the Edge Sport 2.7EB is answering a question no one asked, and blatantly steals exclusivity from the slick new MKX. An Edge Sport with 300 hp/310 lb-ft from the 2.3T would have been sufficient.

 

Their sudden dramatic change in design language is perplexing, especially when the new face is widely seen as derivative and the recent "split wing" models have been praised for their original and handsome appearance.

Exactly. What is the "risk" in a new nose job? Want to take a risk? A proper RWD/AWD Lincoln coupe would be a "risk". A real RWD Continental would be a "risk". Putting a new nose on the same face is not a "risk".

 

Now, let me finish my haterade. I'm still thirsty.

 

I listed all the risks that came to mind.

 

 

'trust' has little to do with style directions past to yore.  You purchase what is in front of you, that you either like or dislike....and more will like this.

And yes I do trust a brand who is trying hard, taking risks and re-inventing itself repeatedly, if it feels it's not at a level it needs to be.

 

Explain all of the risks involved in rebadging a car as opposed to making their own platforms? I feel like they do the opposite of taking risks. Don't get me wrong, I REALLY like the MKC and MKX but that doesn't mean they have taken any serious risks with anything in their lineup. The biggest risk will be the Continental.

 

 

 

 

 

Risks?

Sure.

 

Looking back a few years, there was plenty of risk. Some of which good, some not so.

 

1.       Navigator was a risk, and really started the full sized luxury SUV segment

2.       Blackwood was quite the risk

3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day.

4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too.

5.       MKX was somewhat risky.

6.       Several design languages (and designers), also a risk.

7.       Hybrids

8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest.

9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon.

10.   Did I miss anything?

11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk.

 

Anyway, far more risky than what they were doing in 1995, when sales were high and competition was low.

And going forward, what they are doing with flexible platforms would hardly be considered risky, but in fact brilliant.

 

So risk is not just throwing an existing V8 into a low volume niche sedan.

 

And none of those stack up to creating a ground up brand spankin' new car of their own that Ford could take the trickle down tech from(Like the Alpha over at the GM camp). (I don't know much about the LS - it seems like it may be the closest).

I guess I just don't see the true risk involved in a badge-job. Yes, yes, yes..today, in 2015, they are more than a simple badge job but you know what I mean. entire driveline is the same, interior flows are similar, they're Fords at the heart. And that's fine to be honest. Just don't try and sell they're taking risks with a rebadged and upscale Ford until the Continental is rolling around because as far as I know that is the only Lincoln-only vehicle.

Their risk:reward ratio next to Cadillac 10 years ago.. we know which one took the cake from then on.

BTW, MKT was a risk because they thought "will anybody buy the ugliest, worst proportioned, more expensive Explorer?" The only risk there was how poorly executed it was. Maybe it was actually a good vehicle but it is top 5 in ugliest vehicle of 2015 in my books. I like Lincoln..but I FREAKIN HATE the MKT. THAT is a badge job gone wrong.

We can only compare Lincoln to other brands. Seriously, Ford really needs to give Lincoln autonomy.

Okay, let's hold Lincoln at their word. 

D6 better be so frickin' revolutionary that it's going to be everything learned from Ford GT, GT 350 and F150 aluminum technology, all into one robust package.

We've got 5 years for the rest of the industry to thwart Lincoln and its plans. That's one entire generation cycle for the rest of them.

So Lincoln is already one generation of products behind because they just changed the styling direction, neutering whatever goodwill the split-wing design might have had.

Lincoln, and by that I mean D6 has to move AHEAD by 3 generations of platforms to be competitive when it goes online, because by then every other automaker will be launching their second generation products on their own scalable platforms.

I'm not putting any money in the pot for Lincoln. 

 

 

 

'trust' has little to do with style directions past to yore.  You purchase what is in front of you, that you either like or dislike....and more will like this.

And yes I do trust a brand who is trying hard, taking risks and re-inventing itself repeatedly, if it feels it's not at a level it needs to be.

 

Explain all of the risks involved in rebadging a car as opposed to making their own platforms? I feel like they do the opposite of taking risks. Don't get me wrong, I REALLY like the MKC and MKX but that doesn't mean they have taken any serious risks with anything in their lineup. The biggest risk will be the Continental.

 

 

 

 

 

Risks?

Sure.

 

Looking back a few years, there was plenty of risk. Some of which good, some not so.

 

1.       Navigator was a risk, and really started the full sized luxury SUV segment

2.       Blackwood was quite the risk

3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day.

4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too.

5.       MKX was somewhat risky.

6.       Several design languages (and designers), also a risk.

7.       Hybrids

8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest.

9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon.

10.   Did I miss anything?

11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk.

 

Anyway, far more risky than what they were doing in 1995, when sales were high and competition was low.

And going forward, what they are doing with flexible platforms would hardly be considered risky, but in fact brilliant.

 

So risk is not just throwing an existing V8 into a low volume niche sedan.

 

And none of those stack up to creating a ground up brand spankin' new car of their own that Ford could take the trickle down tech from(Like the Alpha over at the GM camp). (I don't know much about the LS - it seems like it may be the closest).

 

I guess I just don't see the true risk involved in a badge-job. Yes, yes, yes..today, in 2015, they are more than a simple badge job but you know what I mean. entire driveline is the same, interior flows are similar, they're Fords at the heart. And that's fine to be honest. Just don't try and sell they're taking risks with a rebadged and upscale Ford until the Continental is rolling around because as far as I know that is the only Lincoln-only vehicle.

 

Their risk:reward ratio next to Cadillac 10 years ago.. we know which one took the cake from then on.

 

BTW, MKT was a risk because they thought "will anybody buy the ugliest, worst proportioned, more expensive Explorer?" The only risk there was how poorly executed it was. Maybe it was actually a good vehicle but it is top 5 in ugliest vehicle of 2015 in my books. I like Lincoln..but I FREAKIN HATE the MKT. THAT is a badge job gone wrong.

 

Fair enough, you believe Lincoln has not taken ANY risks in recent years, their current products are re-badged lesser luxury vehicles, new designs are carbon copies of other products, and they appear to be dead in the water.

Point made. Far more than once actually.

I disagree with most of it. 

Agree to disagree then

We can only compare Lincoln to other brands. Seriously, Ford really needs to give Lincoln autonomy.

 

Okay, let's hold Lincoln at their word. 

 

D6 better be so frickin' revolutionary that it's going to be everything learned from Ford GT, GT 350 and F150 aluminum technology, all into one robust package.

 

We've got 5 years for the rest of the industry to thwart Lincoln and its plans. That's one entire generation cycle for the rest of them.

 

So Lincoln is already one generation of products behind because they just changed the styling direction, neutering whatever goodwill the split-wing design might have had.

 

Lincoln, and by that I mean D6 has to move AHEAD by 3 generations of platforms to be competitive when it goes online, because by then every other automaker will be launching their second generation products on their own scalable platforms.

 

I'm not putting any money in the pot for Lincoln. 

How is this for revolutionary:

A platform that is so flexible so as to allow sedans, coupes, CUV's across several size categories, and more importantly, flexible enough to be offered with any vehicle drivetrain combination they would like, exclusively even. 

And the best part is, minimal development costs.

No $20B investment needed here.

I have plenty of money in the pot for Lincoln.  I advise similar.

It's not the quantity of vehicles derivatives you can make, it's quality. 

Why would I wait 5 years for Lincoln to catch up, when others already have? Why should I be enthusiastic for a revival of a brand that's been in

revival 

for

15

years.

I'd place the number closer to 25. But at a certain point the numbing sets in.

Loooool

"3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day."

Terrible example. It was a risk that Ford immediately folded on and they haven't given RWD another shot since. One generation and they threw it away. This is the exact reason we have a line up of badge-engineered Lincolns. Meanwhile, Cadillac took a similar risk with the first gen CTS and built the brand's product renaissance off that RWD chassis.

"4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too."

Putting a high output engine in a luxury car is not risky, it's par for the course. A risky ecoboost would be the last gen F150 with the 3.5EB. THAT was risk, and it was under the Ford brand. Lincoln didn't get the ecoboost Navigator until last year when Ford knew people would buy turbocharged trucks.

"5.       MKX was somewhat risky."

Building a luxury crossover when luxury crossovers are RAGING in the marketplace is about as risky as betting you'll hit sand if you fall off a Camel.

"7.       Hybrids"

Again, a badge engineered Ford is not in any way a risk. It's merely cost effective to spread their hybrid powertrain among multiple models.

"8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest."

Yes, it was... when Audi started doing it as a way to match BMW and Mercedes Benz. Was it risky when GM did it with the 410 hp XTS V-Sport two years ago? No. It's simply an expectation of luxury cars, and AWD is necessary without the benefit of RWD.

"9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon."

Again, the risk was on the F150. Ford made sure it was a safe investment, now they'll apply it to other trucks/SUVs.

"11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk."

The MKT was a badge engineered Ford Flex with the same powertrains as the MKS. I don't think you understand the concept of risk.

'trust' has little to do with style directions past to yore.  You purchase what is in front of you, that you either like or dislike....and more will like this.

And yes I do trust a brand who is trying hard, taking risks and re-inventing itself repeatedly, if it feels it's not at a level it needs to be.

 

Explain all of the risks involved in rebadging a car as opposed to making their own platforms? I feel like they do the opposite of taking risks. Don't get me wrong, I REALLY like the MKC and MKX but that doesn't mean they have taken any serious risks with anything in their lineup. The biggest risk will be the Continental.

 

 

Risks?

Sure.

 

Looking back a few years, there was plenty of risk. Some of which good, some not so.

 

1.       Navigator was a risk, and really started the full sized luxury SUV segment

2.       Blackwood was quite the risk

3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day.

4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too.

5.       MKX was somewhat risky.

6.       Several design languages (and designers), also a risk.

7.       Hybrids

8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest.

9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon.

10.   Did I miss anything?

11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk.

 

Anyway, far more risky than what they were doing in 1995, when sales were high and competition was low.

And going forward, what they are doing with flexible platforms would hardly be considered risky, but in fact brilliant.

 

So risk is not just throwing an existing V8 into a low volume niche sedan.

And none of those stack up to creating a ground up brand spankin' new car of their own that Ford could take the trickle down tech from(Like the Alpha over at the GM camp). (I don't know much about the LS - it seems like it may be the closest).

 

I guess I just don't see the true risk involved in a badge-job. Yes, yes, yes..today, in 2015, they are more than a simple badge job but you know what I mean. entire driveline is the same, interior flows are similar, they're Fords at the heart. And that's fine to be honest. Just don't try and sell they're taking risks with a rebadged and upscale Ford until the Continental is rolling around because as far as I know that is the only Lincoln-only vehicle.

 

Their risk:reward ratio next to Cadillac 10 years ago.. we know which one took the cake from then on.

 

BTW, MKT was a risk because they thought "will anybody buy the ugliest, worst proportioned, more expensive Explorer?" The only risk there was how poorly executed it was. Maybe it was actually a good vehicle but it is top 5 in ugliest vehicle of 2015 in my books. I like Lincoln..but I FREAKIN HATE the MKT. THAT is a badge job gone wrong.

 

 

Fair enough, you believe Lincoln has not taken ANY risks in recent years, their current products are re-badged lesser luxury vehicles, new designs are carbon copies of other products, and they appear to be dead in the water.

 

Point made. Far more than once actually.

 

 

I disagree with most of it. 

Agree to disagree then

I don't see them as dead in the water as I really like their newest offerings I just to not see them as distinct or risky moves.

We can agree to disagree, No worries.

The thing is, Lincoln is supposed to be luxury. It's supposed to eke an emotion. That is how luxury cars sell.

It's not about reputation or reliability. It's all about what the badge does to you emotions. 

You can't make rational sense of selling luxury. So this is where the platform on which Lincoln should stand should be apart from Ford.

I'm not looking for Lincoln to make a practical four-door sedan for wear and tear by the family. I am not looking for the best fuel-economy or built Ford tough by Lincoln. 

We're looking for excellence in emotive design, quality and most of all a feeling of being undeniably special by owning one of them.

I can't speak volumes as how Lincoln fails to get an emotional reaction from most of us. The MKZ before the update is a finger-licking good looking car by my opinion. The new one, ugh, they forced a styling change on a car that didn't need it.

The thing is, Lincoln is supposed to be luxury. It's supposed to eke an emotion. That is how luxury cars sell.

 

It's not about reputation or reliability. It's all about what the badge does to you emotions. 

 

You can't make rational sense of selling luxury. So this is where the platform on which Lincoln should stand should be apart from Ford.

 

I'm not looking for Lincoln to make a practical four-door sedan for wear and tear by the family. I am not looking for the best fuel-economy or built Ford tough by Lincoln. 

 

We're looking for excellence in emotive design, quality and most of all a feeling of being undeniably special by owning one of them.

 

I can't speak volumes as how Lincoln fails to get an emotional reaction from most of us. The MKZ before the update is a finger-licking good looking car by my opinion. The new one, ugh, they forced a styling change on a car that didn't need it.

But it was Lincoln who stole the show alongside the new CT6 with their Conti concept. And although it  happens to be coming to production about as close to the concept as ever before in history, it hardly needs to. It was just that gorgeous. 

But sedans are but a small story today, as everyone wants CUVs, and with the Aviator concept about to pounce, I would say Lincoln is hardly trailing in those segments.

Loooool

 

"3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day."

 

Terrible example. It was a risk that Ford immediately folded on and they haven't given RWD another shot since. One generation and they threw it away. This is the exact reason we have a line up of badge-engineered Lincolns. Meanwhile, Cadillac took a similar risk with the first gen CTS and built the brand's product renaissance off that RWD chassis.

 

"4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too."

 

Putting a high output engine in a luxury car is not risky, it's par for the course. A risky ecoboost would be the last gen F150 with the 3.5EB. THAT was risk, and it was under the Ford brand. Lincoln didn't get the ecoboost Navigator until last year when Ford knew people would buy turbocharged trucks.

 

"5.       MKX was somewhat risky."

 

Building a luxury crossover when luxury crossovers are RAGING in the marketplace is about as risky as betting you'll hit sand if you fall off a Camel.

 

"7.       Hybrids"

 

Again, a badge engineered Ford is not in any way a risk. It's merely cost effective to spread their hybrid powertrain among multiple models.

 

"8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest."

 

Yes, it was... when Audi started doing it as a way to match BMW and Mercedes Benz. Was it risky when GM did it with the 410 hp XTS V-Sport two years ago? No. It's simply an expectation of luxury cars, and AWD is necessary without the benefit of RWD.

 

"9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon."

 

Again, the risk was on the F150. Ford made sure it was a safe investment, now they'll apply it to other trucks/SUVs.

 

"11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk."

 

The MKT was a badge engineered Ford Flex with the same powertrains as the MKS. I don't think you understand the concept of risk.

I'm glad you went through all of that. Most of your opinions on those I share almost exactly. Aluminum, LS, Hybrids, EcoBoost, ect.. Completely agree.

 

We can only compare Lincoln to other brands. Seriously, Ford really needs to give Lincoln autonomy.

 

Okay, let's hold Lincoln at their word. 

 

D6 better be so frickin' revolutionary that it's going to be everything learned from Ford GT, GT 350 and F150 aluminum technology, all into one robust package.

 

We've got 5 years for the rest of the industry to thwart Lincoln and its plans. That's one entire generation cycle for the rest of them.

 

So Lincoln is already one generation of products behind because they just changed the styling direction, neutering whatever goodwill the split-wing design might have had.

 

Lincoln, and by that I mean D6 has to move AHEAD by 3 generations of platforms to be competitive when it goes online, because by then every other automaker will be launching their second generation products on their own scalable platforms.

 

I'm not putting any money in the pot for Lincoln. 

 

How is this for revolutionary:

A platform that is so flexible so as to allow sedans, coupes, CUV's across several size categories, and more importantly, flexible enough to be offered with any vehicle drivetrain combination they would like, exclusively even. 

And the best part is, minimal development costs.

No $20B investment needed here.

 

I have plenty of money in the pot for Lincoln.  I advise similar.

 

Urm....

It's not revolutionary.

It's called the Chrysler K-Car platform.

It's called the VW MQB and MLB platforms.

It's called the Toyota K Platform (Camry et al.)

Let's not go around thinking that this is the 2015 version of the Ford Model-T.... the concept has been around and in production for 35+ years

Loooool

 

"3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day."

 

Terrible example. It was a risk that Ford immediately folded on and they haven't given RWD another shot since. One generation and they threw it away. This is the exact reason we have a line up of badge-engineered Lincolns. Meanwhile, Cadillac took a similar risk with the first gen CTS and built the brand's product renaissance off that RWD chassis.

 

"4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too."

 

Putting a high output engine in a luxury car is not risky, it's par for the course. A risky ecoboost would be the last gen F150 with the 3.5EB. THAT was risk, and it was under the Ford brand. Lincoln didn't get the ecoboost Navigator until last year when Ford knew people would buy turbocharged trucks.

 

"5.       MKX was somewhat risky."

 

Building a luxury crossover when luxury crossovers are RAGING in the marketplace is about as risky as betting you'll hit sand if you fall off a Camel.

 

"7.       Hybrids"

 

Again, a badge engineered Ford is not in any way a risk. It's merely cost effective to spread their hybrid powertrain among multiple models.

 

"8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest."

 

Yes, it was... when Audi started doing it as a way to match BMW and Mercedes Benz. Was it risky when GM did it with the 410 hp XTS V-Sport two years ago? No. It's simply an expectation of luxury cars, and AWD is necessary without the benefit of RWD.

 

"9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon."

 

Again, the risk was on the F150. Ford made sure it was a safe investment, now they'll apply it to other trucks/SUVs.

 

"11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk."

 

The MKT was a badge engineered Ford Flex with the same powertrains as the MKS. I don't think you understand the concept of risk.

itemizing each opinion does not change the fact they were all risks to a degree.

And as far as the definition or risk, I would say that following the Germans lock-step is hardly a risk.

Passing the Germans... that's the reward.

 

 

We can only compare Lincoln to other brands. Seriously, Ford really needs to give Lincoln autonomy.

 

Okay, let's hold Lincoln at their word. 

 

D6 better be so frickin' revolutionary that it's going to be everything learned from Ford GT, GT 350 and F150 aluminum technology, all into one robust package.

 

We've got 5 years for the rest of the industry to thwart Lincoln and its plans. That's one entire generation cycle for the rest of them.

 

So Lincoln is already one generation of products behind because they just changed the styling direction, neutering whatever goodwill the split-wing design might have had.

 

Lincoln, and by that I mean D6 has to move AHEAD by 3 generations of platforms to be competitive when it goes online, because by then every other automaker will be launching their second generation products on their own scalable platforms.

 

I'm not putting any money in the pot for Lincoln. 

 

How is this for revolutionary:

A platform that is so flexible so as to allow sedans, coupes, CUV's across several size categories, and more importantly, flexible enough to be offered with any vehicle drivetrain combination they would like, exclusively even. 

And the best part is, minimal development costs.

No $20B investment needed here.

 

I have plenty of money in the pot for Lincoln.  I advise similar.

 

 

Urm....

 

It's not revolutionary.

 

It's called the Chrysler K-Car platform.

It's called the VW MQB and MLB platforms.

It's called the Toyota K Platform (Camry et al.)

 

Let's not go around thinking that this is the 2015 version of the Ford Model-T.... the concept has been around and in production for 35+ years

 

really?

Will any of those listed give you the POTENTIAL OPTION of a FWD or RWD sedan, sold simultaneously through a SINGLE brand?

 

 

'trust' has little to do with style directions past to yore.  You purchase what is in front of you, that you either like or dislike....and more will like this.

And yes I do trust a brand who is trying hard, taking risks and re-inventing itself repeatedly, if it feels it's not at a level it needs to be.

 

Explain all of the risks involved in rebadging a car as opposed to making their own platforms? I feel like they do the opposite of taking risks. Don't get me wrong, I REALLY like the MKC and MKX but that doesn't mean they have taken any serious risks with anything in their lineup. The biggest risk will be the Continental.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

One Ford: the millstone around Dearborn's neck. The glass ceiling that it cannot penetrate.

The Camaro is all the proof you need to know that the above statements are true.

lol, Classic 'Bong Camaro plug.

 

 

 

Risks?

Sure.

 

Looking back a few years, there was plenty of risk. Some of which good, some not so.

 

1.       Navigator was a risk, and really started the full sized luxury SUV segment

2.       Blackwood was quite the risk

3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day.

4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too.

5.       MKX was somewhat risky.

6.       Several design languages (and designers), also a risk.

7.       Hybrids

8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest.

9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon.

10.   Did I miss anything?

11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk.

 

Anyway, far more risky than what they were doing in 1995, when sales were high and competition was low.

And going forward, what they are doing with flexible platforms would hardly be considered risky, but in fact brilliant.

 

So risk is not just throwing an existing V8 into a low volume niche sedan.

 

3. The LS wasn't a risk, it was a much needed jump and Lincoln threw it away.

4. A 350 hp luxury car isn't a risk, it is almost a requirement.

5. The MKX came out in 2006 - 6 years after the Acura MDX, 9 years after the Lexus RX, and 2 years after the Cadillac SRX. 

7. Putting a hybrid in a luxury car is not a risk.

8. 400hp sedan with AWD is not a risk in the luxury segment, that availability is a requirement. 

11. MKT was there to replace the outgoing Town Car.  Canceling the TC with no direct replacement was the risk.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

One Ford: the millstone around Dearborn's neck. The glass ceiling that it cannot penetrate.

The Camaro is all the proof you need to know that the above statements are true.

Camaro?

Wrong thread

 

 

 

We can only compare Lincoln to other brands. Seriously, Ford really needs to give Lincoln autonomy.

 

Okay, let's hold Lincoln at their word. 

 

D6 better be so frickin' revolutionary that it's going to be everything learned from Ford GT, GT 350 and F150 aluminum technology, all into one robust package.

 

We've got 5 years for the rest of the industry to thwart Lincoln and its plans. That's one entire generation cycle for the rest of them.

 

So Lincoln is already one generation of products behind because they just changed the styling direction, neutering whatever goodwill the split-wing design might have had.

 

Lincoln, and by that I mean D6 has to move AHEAD by 3 generations of platforms to be competitive when it goes online, because by then every other automaker will be launching their second generation products on their own scalable platforms.

 

I'm not putting any money in the pot for Lincoln. 

 

How is this for revolutionary:

A platform that is so flexible so as to allow sedans, coupes, CUV's across several size categories, and more importantly, flexible enough to be offered with any vehicle drivetrain combination they would like, exclusively even. 

And the best part is, minimal development costs.

No $20B investment needed here.

 

I have plenty of money in the pot for Lincoln.  I advise similar.

 

 

Urm....

 

It's not revolutionary.

 

It's called the Chrysler K-Car platform.

It's called the VW MQB and MLB platforms.

It's called the Toyota K Platform (Camry et al.)

 

Let's not go around thinking that this is the 2015 version of the Ford Model-T.... the concept has been around and in production for 35+ years

 

 

 

really?

Will any of those listed give you the POTENTIAL OPTION of a FWD or RWD sedan, sold simultaneously through a SINGLE brand?

 

Can?  Yes.  The MLB platform can.  Audi doesn't do it that way for marketing reasons... but yes MLB can do it. 

I agree with Drew. The Town Car was well past its prime, but they should have had the Continental ready to go 5 years ago when the cancelled the Town Car.

You can get a 400 HP all wheel drive car from Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, BMW, Infiniti, Cadillac, etc. Basically Acura and Lincoln are just 5-10 years late.

Hybrids and diesels have been around too. Lincoln isn't doing anything the other guys didn't do 5-10 years ago.

 

 

 

 

We can only compare Lincoln to other brands. Seriously, Ford really needs to give Lincoln autonomy.

 

Okay, let's hold Lincoln at their word. 

 

D6 better be so frickin' revolutionary that it's going to be everything learned from Ford GT, GT 350 and F150 aluminum technology, all into one robust package.

 

We've got 5 years for the rest of the industry to thwart Lincoln and its plans. That's one entire generation cycle for the rest of them.

 

So Lincoln is already one generation of products behind because they just changed the styling direction, neutering whatever goodwill the split-wing design might have had.

 

Lincoln, and by that I mean D6 has to move AHEAD by 3 generations of platforms to be competitive when it goes online, because by then every other automaker will be launching their second generation products on their own scalable platforms.

 

I'm not putting any money in the pot for Lincoln. 

 

How is this for revolutionary:

A platform that is so flexible so as to allow sedans, coupes, CUV's across several size categories, and more importantly, flexible enough to be offered with any vehicle drivetrain combination they would like, exclusively even. 

And the best part is, minimal development costs.

No $20B investment needed here.

 

I have plenty of money in the pot for Lincoln.  I advise similar.

 

 

Urm....

 

It's not revolutionary.

 

It's called the Chrysler K-Car platform.

It's called the VW MQB and MLB platforms.

It's called the Toyota K Platform (Camry et al.)

 

Let's not go around thinking that this is the 2015 version of the Ford Model-T.... the concept has been around and in production for 35+ years

 

 

 

really?

Will any of those listed give you the POTENTIAL OPTION of a FWD or RWD sedan, sold simultaneously through a SINGLE brand?

 

 

Can?  Yes.  The MLB platform can.  Audi doesn't do it that way for marketing reasons... but yes MLB can do it. 

 

Did not know,

But then again, I am no a driveline kind of guy.

 

Loooool

 

"3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day."

 

Terrible example. It was a risk that Ford immediately folded on and they haven't given RWD another shot since. One generation and they threw it away. This is the exact reason we have a line up of badge-engineered Lincolns. Meanwhile, Cadillac took a similar risk with the first gen CTS and built the brand's product renaissance off that RWD chassis.

 

"4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too."

 

Putting a high output engine in a luxury car is not risky, it's par for the course. A risky ecoboost would be the last gen F150 with the 3.5EB. THAT was risk, and it was under the Ford brand. Lincoln didn't get the ecoboost Navigator until last year when Ford knew people would buy turbocharged trucks.

 

"5.       MKX was somewhat risky."

 

Building a luxury crossover when luxury crossovers are RAGING in the marketplace is about as risky as betting you'll hit sand if you fall off a Camel.

 

"7.       Hybrids"

 

Again, a badge engineered Ford is not in any way a risk. It's merely cost effective to spread their hybrid powertrain among multiple models.

 

"8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest."

 

Yes, it was... when Audi started doing it as a way to match BMW and Mercedes Benz. Was it risky when GM did it with the 410 hp XTS V-Sport two years ago? No. It's simply an expectation of luxury cars, and AWD is necessary without the benefit of RWD.

 

"9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon."

 

Again, the risk was on the F150. Ford made sure it was a safe investment, now they'll apply it to other trucks/SUVs.

 

"11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk."

 

The MKT was a badge engineered Ford Flex with the same powertrains as the MKS. I don't think you understand the concept of risk.

 

 

itemizing each opinion does not change the fact they were all risks to a degree.

 

And as far as the definition or risk, I would say that following the Germans lock-step is hardly a risk.

 

Lmao. You have provided no reasoning behind YOUR itemized list of "risks" and now you offer no rebuttal to my counterargument. I also see Drew has responded to your list in similar fashion.

You've made it abundantly clear you do not understand risk in the automotive industry. In fact, just about every move Ford makes with Lincoln is done to MINIMIZE risk:

-sharing platforms and powertrains

-testing any new technology on the Ford brand

-focusing on the highest profit luxury segments

-abandoning the unique split-wing design for the new derivative luxury mash-up design

Did not know,

But then again, I am no a driveline kind of guy.

Audi MLB hosts:

A4/A5/Q5 - Sedan/Coupe/Convertible/Crossover in FWD or AWD forms - Everything from 4 cylinders to 8 cylinders available.

Audi Q7 and Porsche Macan and Bentley Bentaga-  AWD with RWD bias - 6 to 12 cylinders available

The old D1/D3 platforms (the distinction being the material of the body panels)

A8 - FWD/AWD

Phaeton - RWD/AWD

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

One Ford: the millstone around Dearborn's neck. The glass ceiling that it cannot penetrate.

The Camaro is all the proof you need to know that the above statements are true.

 

 

Camaro?

 

Wrong thread

 

Maybe you should read the entire conversation leading up to that statement before making silly accusations.