2022 First BEV, All BEV by 2030 as Lincoln Celebrates it 100th Anniversary in 2022

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Actually we do know. And Alfa lost money because Sergio is an idiot and no one wanted their piss poor built cars. 
https://manufacturingglobal.com/smart-manufacturing/ford-motor-company-reports-strong-2021-q1-results

Yep they sure can because they have actual experience in mass producing cars without the countless quality issues still plaguing a newbie like Tesla. It’s not that hard to figure out unless you are just looking for any excuse to $h! on domestics. 
 

And just stop with the bar moving. As soon as you got called out over the depreciation of the GLS, you moved on to something else. Just stop it. 

Tesla can’t even compete with Ford levels of quality. 
https://autos.yahoo.com/comparison-test-2021-ford-mustang-110000731.html

Bashing Tesla is bashing a domestic.

And I am aware of Tesla's quality issues, but consumers are still choosing to buy Teslas, Tesla sales were up 50% last year, when many were down.  It is going to take more than beating Tesla in reliability to outsell them.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

 

 

 

 

I am aware profit is not directly linked to volume.  Porsche had a higher net income than Ford last year ($3.77B to $3.3B) and Porsche doesn't have a very big volume.   But Lincoln does not run at Porsche-like profit margins, very few do.   

What I don't understand is how Lincoln selling less cars is a good thing.  If they make good margin on each unit, they should want to sell more of those units.

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 Porsche had a higher net income than Ford last year ($3.77B to $3.3B) and Porsche doesn't have a very big volume.

Porsche in the 1990s was in the very real danger of going bankrupt.

Porsche in the 1990s

1. didnt have volume

2. didnt have the bread and butter volume products to MAKE money

3. believe it or not, Porsche didnt even have brand cache in the 1990s. Especially from going away from their air cooled engines in their 911.

4. Porsche's brand image was on a steady DECLINE since the 1980s.  Actually, since the 1970s, but most will not admit to that. 

Two things happened in the 1990s.  Mid to late 1990s. 

1. Porsche re-branded itself with specializing the 911 into many models if you will.  It took awhile for folks to understand what a GT2 911 was all about. Which had a different mission from the Turbo model for example.

2. Porsche started developing a model BELOW the 911 to get people in the show rooms.  They tried that before in  the 1970s and failed MISERABLY. They did that in the 1980s and ALSO failed miserably. The 911 was always a strong seller. But very very low numbers.  The Boxster was a semi success as it was an ALL OUT PORSCHE effort rather than a VW collaboration as the previous 914 of the 1970s was.  Marketing was better in that regard too. 

3. Porsche started doing the SUV thing.  THAT alone did not make Porsche any money.  It brought volumes to Porsche. As where the 911 was expensive for folk and the 911 was sold only to a SPECIFIC set of people, the SUVs brought in NEW clientele.  Clientele that were and still are NOT pure Porsche fanatics...

4. What DID bring in the money is that Porsche used Volkswagen platformed SUVs as a way to save on the economies of scale thing. And the VW sharing part was kept on the hush hush...  And if it leaked out that the SUVs were VWs, Porsche marketing at that point had placed Porsche engineering on a high list of a selling point.

So no... Had Porsche NOT been able to

1.  sell SUVs

2. switch to a VW platform SUV

3. market THAT successfully

Porsche woudnt be here today...

But they did switch in making SUVs at the time when SUVs were getting to be hot. Got economies of scale with using VW SUV platforms.  

But now...it seems there are 2 kinds of Porsche clientele.

1. 911 clientele   

2. Porsche SUV clientele that might not know what a 911 is or really care. 

In other words...you are placing Porsche on too much of a high pedestal...

Porsche was a faltering company going slowly down the loo. The only model that sold WAS the 911. Anything and everything else was a failure.

The Boxster also nearly failed in the market place. 

Porsche had to re-engineer its mission for it and definitely had to re-market it as the Boxster was following in the same footsteps as other Porsche sports car offerings NOT named the 911.

The 914, 924, 944, 964, 928...

All failures.

All these failures were slowly sinking Porsche and its brand image.

Its funny to see.

The SUVs are the ones keeping the lights on at Porsche even to this day.   It keeps the 911 alive for the folk that are crazy for the 911.  But the 911 cannot survive WITHOUT the SUVs raking in the money.  

But the SUVs that Porsche sells dont help with the 911 sales...

In other words...

Lincoln has economies of scale because Lincoln shares its platforms with Ford.  

*SIGH*

yes...Lincoln would LOVE to sell more vehicles.  Especially the sedans.  Shyte has happened and that boat has sailed.  HOWEVER...Lincoln SUV sales are hot.  

Lincoln SUVs are NOT looked down upon.  Lincoln sales are not too shabby. 

Lincoln is not Porsche. In other words, Lincoln SUVs are not performance oriented as how Porsche SUVs are. Although Id like to know how much of a performance machine the little Porsche CUV really is...  

Lincoln as a quiet luxury vehicle offering is actually quite a success story in Lincoln's recent history.     

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I am aware profit is not directly linked to volume. 

What I don't understand is how Lincoln selling less cars is a good thing.

You're STILL mentally linking volume to profit / 'success'. 
Volume is LARGELY irrelevant...

Lincoln is not "selling less cars", they're selling a consistent 'Lincoln volume' of vehicles. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Bashing Tesla is bashing a domestic.

And I am aware of Tesla's quality issues, but consumers are still choosing to buy Teslas, Tesla sales were up 50% last year, when many were down.  It is going to take more than beating Tesla in reliability to outsell them.

I’m not “bashing” though. I have presented facts that back up everything I’ve said about whereas you tend to make blanket, and non researched, statements. Fact. Furthermore, outside of Tesla, you bash domestics every chance you get. Find me ONE Cadillac thread here where you are not trying to pass off your opinion as fact. You chime on those threads constantly but are surprisingly absent the few Mercedes threads there are here. Sorry, that’s bashing and trolling. We are not the same here. I actually like Tesla, in principle, but I’m not blind and when you’re not making a profit over the last decade and building cars with a Yugo like quality to them, you’re damn straight I’m going to bash them, bash them with facts. Again, we are not the same and neither is the “bashing”. 

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

In other words...

Lincoln has economies of scale because Lincoln shares its platforms with Ford.  

*SIGH*

yes...Lincoln would LOVE to sell more vehicles.  Especially the sedans.  Shyte has happened and that boat has sailed.  HOWEVER...Lincoln SUV sales are hot.  

Lincoln SUVs are NOT looked down upon.  Lincoln sales are not too shabby. 

Lincoln is not Porsche. In other words, Lincoln SUVs are not performance oriented as how Porsche SUVs are. Although Id like to know how much of a performance machine the little Porsche CUV really is...  

Lincoln as a quiet luxury vehicle offering is actually quite a success story in Lincoln's recent history.     

I never said Lincoln was Porsche, and I am aware Porsche had hard times in the 90s, Audi and Mercedes paid Porsche to build cars like 500E and RS2 that helped keep Porsche afloat.  And everyone relies on SUVs now, that is what the market is.  And today Porsche selling 250k units a year can make as much money as car companies that sell 4 million units a year.  

Agreed that Lincoln has economies of scale with Ford, but the same can be said for Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn, Mercury, Plymouth, etc.  They all had economies of scale from the parent company too.  I don't see Lincoln as having some dramatic turnaround like Porsche did, to wear the Lincoln brand is 50% of Ford Motor Company's profit and some success story of the auto industry.  

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

You're STILL mentally linking volume to profit / 'success'. 
Volume is LARGELY irrelevant...

Lincoln is not "selling less cars", they're selling a consistent 'Lincoln volume' of vehicles. 

What does Lincoln volume mean?  

I am aware that volume does not equal profit, Ferrari made more money than FCA in 2020 and one of those companies sold 9900 cars and the other sold 4 million.  But Lincoln is not a Ferrari or Porsche that can make obscene money per car (Ferrari made $71,000 profit per car last year). 

My point is that if Lincoln is a profitable brand, and making say $5,000 profit per vehicle.  And Ford makes $1,000 profit per vehicle, Ford should want to sell more Lincolns.  They owe that to their shareholders, and employees who rely on FoMoCo's profitability.   Now if Ford brand and Lincoln brand products both make the same profit per car then it doesn't matter what they sell.

And on the flip side is the Lincoln dealers.  They do rely on volume to make money because most of their money comes from the service department, fewer Lincolns on the road is less cars to service.  And most new car dealers rely on quarterly and annual volume bonuses more so than the $500 or so in profit per car they get selling that car.  And the sales department also makes their money in the F&I office with loan fees, warranties, etc, which are again paid per unit usually, so volume there helps the dealer.  

And when Lincoln asks these dealers to spend $500k to upgrade for EV's like Cadillac did, the ones without volume aren't going to do that, they'll just close because there isn't a return there.

"Lincoln volume' means; the volume that Lincoln averages out at. They've been steady since 2015, which is all up since '08-14, and only slightly below where they were in the mid '00s. The brand has its customer base and it keeps buying a steady stream of Lincolns. Your claim was "Lincolns don't sell" but obviously that's baseless nonsense... still tied to an arbitrary sales volume you think needs to be met.

You're creating this conspiracy theory doom scenario that sales are plummeting, the brands makes no profit / has no revenue, and has no forward business case... yet that conspiracy theory seems to be based only on personal conjecture.

I've never seen a stand-alone Lincoln dealer, so your further 'dire service scenario' conspiracy theory doesn't fly.

Here's a circa $50K Tesla interior, and a same price range Lincoln sedan interior. Once Lincoln is also electrified and that variable is equal... who's going to chose the Tesla interior?
 

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

"Lincoln volume' means; the volume that Lincoln averages out at. They've been steady since 2015, which is all up since '08-14, and only slightly below where they were in the mid '00s. The brand has its customer base and it keeps buying a steady stream of Lincolns. Your claim was "Lincolns don't sell" but obviously that's baseless nonsense... still tied to an arbitrary sales volume you think needs to be met.

You're creating this conspiracy theory doom scenario that sales are plummeting, the brands makes no profit / has no revenue, and has no forward business case... yet that conspiracy theory seems to be based only on personal conjecture.

I've never seen a stand-alone Lincoln dealer, so your further 'dire service scenario' conspiracy theory doesn't fly.

Here's a circa $50K Tesla interior, and a same price range Lincoln sedan interior. Once Lincoln is also electrified and that variable is equal... who's going to chose the Tesla interior?
 

A C&D article I linked earlier showed preference to the E-Mach interior over the Tesla Model Y and that’s just a lowly little Ford. That should tell people all they need to know. 

On 6/24/2021 at 5:11 PM, smk4565 said:

It was built on a Fusion platform...

That doesn't make it bad. 

On 6/24/2021 at 5:35 PM, smk4565 said:

If they want this Zypher to sell, they need an 11/10

That'd be burnt and nobody wants burnt food. 

1/10 comparison rating. 

On 6/26/2021 at 7:39 PM, smk4565 said:

And my point is the Lincoln brand does not have this sort of desirability,

Don't worry, neither does Mercedes, BMW, or Audi. Hell, any other brand. Toyota is clearly an outlier and you're also only looking at an insane market right now. Look at the used prices in a year from now and you will absolutely have depreciation on every used vehicle, Toyotas included. 

Just now, ccap41 said:

Don't worry, neither does Mercedes, BMW, or Audi. Hell, any other brand. Toyota is clearly an outlier and you're also only looking at an insane market right now. Look at the used prices in a year from now and you will absolutely have depreciation on every used vehicle, Toyotas included. 

That has already been pointed out to him and his only response was to post the low volume G-Wagen (at least he spelled right that time) number. When I post the GLS numbers vs the Navigator, he moved the bar yet again to change the subject. I also showed him an article stating that the market will come crashing back down so his initial comparison were moot anyway. Fanboys only see what they want to see and run away form the rest.

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't see Lincoln as having some dramatic turnaround like Porsche did

Of course you don’t see it. That’s the point that EVERYONE here is trying to make to you. I remember the 90s and not many folks thought Porsche could make it long term before VW took over. That was common knowledge then.

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

If Lincoln resale value was good, quality and interiors are so good and the products are “world class” as Lincoln claims, then why aren’t they selling?  And they aren’t selling in the USA let alone getting beat 15-1 by any German brand in China and Lincoln not being a factor in Europe.

Because they have such a bad reputation prior to like 2015ish. It takes A LONG TIME to finally convince people that something is worth spending luxury money on. They're finally making great products and not trying to be something they aren't. 

19 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln was down last year (and pretty much every one was) and are down this year.

Mercedes has been in a decline since 2016. That must be rough to see. 

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mercedes-benz-us-figures/

20 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Did you not notice that everything that's currently in production is up and up by a good amount? 

18 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Can't make profit on 500,000 EV's a year, but Lincoln will make profit on 100,000 EV's a year?  

As you already know, all of their platforms are being utilized on multiple vehicles which do sell in much higher volumes. The expensive parts are paid for by the volume Ford units. 

On 6/22/2021 at 10:05 AM, ccap41 said:

Their current portfolio is extremely competitive with everything it their respective price range. They don't build race cars, they built true luxury cars. Quiet, comfortable, quality materials, pickup/drop off your vehicle for service.

Their dealership experience is remarkable. Two close relatives own Lincolns, they are very, very well taken care of.

20 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

As you already know, all of their platforms are being utilized on multiple vehicles which do sell in much higher volumes. The expensive parts are paid for by the volume Ford units. 

If Lincolns are anything like my Ranger, count me in. 

32 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Did you not notice that everything that's currently in production is up and up by a good amount? 

Because cherry picking is yet another skill in addition to bar moving lol.

38 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Because they have such a bad reputation prior to like 2015ish. It takes A LONG TIME to finally convince people that something is worth spending luxury money on. They're finally making great products and not trying to be something they aren't. 

Mercedes has been in a decline since 2016. That must be rough to see. 

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mercedes-benz-us-figures/

 

Not trying to be something they are not is especially true I think of the whole Ford brand now that they are focused on SUV/Truck. Would not kick a Mustang out of my garage though. 

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

"Lincoln volume' means; the volume that Lincoln averages out at. They've been steady since 2015, which is all up since '08-14, and only slightly below where they were in the mid '00s. The brand has its customer base and it keeps buying a steady stream of Lincolns. Your claim was "Lincolns don't sell" but obviously that's baseless nonsense... still tied to an arbitrary sales volume you think needs to be met.

You're creating this conspiracy theory doom scenario that sales are plummeting, the brands makes no profit / has no revenue, and has no forward business case... yet that conspiracy theory seems to be based only on personal conjecture.

I've never seen a stand-alone Lincoln dealer, so your further 'dire service scenario' conspiracy theory doesn't fly.

Here's a circa $50K Tesla interior, and a same price range Lincoln sedan interior. Once Lincoln is also electrified and that variable is equal... who's going to chose the Tesla interior?
 

Come to Columbus, we have a stand alone Lincoln Dealer. 

2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Because cherry picking is yet another skill in addition to bar moving lol.

He could move out to Washington State with David Felt, and my Son Daniel. They have tons of Cherries to pick, much more productive than irration arguements here on C and G. 

14 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I’m not “bashing” though. I have presented facts that back up everything I’ve said about whereas you tend to make blanket, and non researched, statements. Fact. Furthermore, outside of Tesla, you bash domestics every chance you get. Find me ONE Cadillac thread here where you are not trying to pass off your opinion as fact. You chime on those threads constantly but are surprisingly absent the few Mercedes threads there are here. Sorry, that’s bashing and trolling. We are not the same here. I actually like Tesla, in principle, but I’m not blind and when you’re not making a profit over the last decade and building cars with a Yugo like quality to them, you’re damn straight I’m going to bash them, bash them with facts. Again, we are not the same and neither is the “bashing”. 

Agree completely. 

21 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Lincoln sales are way up in the last few years.  Sure the sedans are gone, but the German sedans are hanging on by a thread (in the US) also... and Tesla (Go USA!) is outselling the Germans Combined in sedan sales in their respective markets. 

Thankfully...

On 6/23/2021 at 12:32 PM, ccap41 said:

While I, personally, don't really care if they offer a car or not, there really are still plenty of people who want cars. I'm in a couple Lincoln Facebook pages and there are quite a few who still want cars and want to upgrade from their Continental or MKZ to a new one but they don't exist. 

My son has a clapped out 2004 Implala that he owns outright and runs great. He would like to replace it with another sedan, he is 23 years old. Sedan buyers do exist, and enthusaistic ones at that. 

On 6/23/2021 at 8:44 PM, surreal1272 said:

Your denial is astounding. For the record, all three Phoenix AZ dealerships sell vans right alongside their “luxury” cars. The one in my hometown in NC also sells them side by side. 

Same thing here in Columbus Ohio. 

On 6/24/2021 at 10:48 AM, oldshurst442 said:

The problem with the Continental was that FoMoCo didnt use (didnt have at their disposal and didnt have the time to engineer) a proper platform for it.  They just used the CD4 platform. The Fusion/MKZ platform albeit the LWB version.  It made the Continental look small especially as compared to the concept they unveiled.

It wasnt majestic enough 

1. in actual looks

2. to actually compliment the namesake of Continental.

Also, there were small exterior detailing that missed the mark that were on the concept that made the concept stand-out. Small details that were omitted that made the difference between wannabe luxury to truly greatness.  A longer wheelbase than the LWB CD4 is one.  Body panel lines on the concept made the Continental look like a handcrafted uber machine.  On the production version, the Continental looked like a badge engineered Fusion...or a more gussied up MKZ...

On the interior though, THAT would be Lincoln's FIRST step in addressing the issues that American luxury cars had...which would be the perception that American luxury makes cheapen out their interiors. The Continental put an end to that and proved that Lincoln was not messing around anymore and the result is truly shown in Navigator and Aviator SUVs. 

 

This is actually one of the best posts you have made here...very concise, rational and to the point. You do have a lot of wisdom at times. 

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

I've never seen a stand-alone Lincoln dealer, so your further 'dire service scenario' conspiracy theory doesn't fly.

They may not be stand-alone but they need their own building now. I found this out because the closest Lincoln dealer to me stopped carrying Lincoln because they wouldn't build a second building for Lincoln so now my closest dealer is like 50 miles away... 

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

That has already been pointed out to him and his only response was to post the low volume G-Wagen (at least he spelled right that time) number. When I post the GLS numbers vs the Navigator, he moved the bar yet again to change the subject. I also showed him an article stating that the market will come crashing back down so his initial comparison were moot anyway. Fanboys only see what they want to see and run away form the rest.

Yeah, it's just an insane market right now and looking at any used vehicles show this year and clearly an outlier that possibly will never happen again. 

17 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Not trying to be something they are not is especially true I think of the whole Ford brand now that they are focused on SUV/Truck. Would not kick a Mustang out of my garage though.

Yep, I think them truly focusing on the luxury experience with quiet, comfortable and great service is taking them up a notch but it isn't a switch that can be flipped and then quadruple their sales. Word of mouth is the best advertisement and people with current Lincolns just need to have great experiences. 

13 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

My son has a clapped out 2004 Implala that he owns outright and runs great. He would like to replace it with another sedan, he is 23 years old. Sedan buyers do exist, and enthusaistic ones at that. 

They certainly do exist and I think it would be a shame to never offer another sedan again. I'm more disappointed they never really updated the Continental and gave it a refreshed "second" run. 

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I remember the 90s and not many folks thought Porsche could make it long term before VW took over. That was common knowledge then.

You can count me as one of the folks that did not think Porsche would survive even with VW taking them over. SUVs is what saved them and the cars for the much fewer car lovers out there.

Ford FINALLY has a CEO and a leadership team that realizes that Lincoln Luxury DOES NOT have to be GERMAN copy to survive or succeed. We can have Tight enjoyable to drive American Auto's that also still have a proper plush American seating condition rather than the over rated hard as rock German seating design and engineered auto's.

55 minutes ago, David said:

You can count me as one of the folks that did not think Porsche would survive even with VW taking them over. SUVs is what saved them and the cars for the much fewer car lovers out there.

Ford FINALLY has a CEO and a leadership team that realizes that Lincoln Luxury DOES NOT have to be GERMAN copy to survive or succeed. We can have Tight enjoyable to drive American Auto's that also still have a proper plush American seating condition rather than the over rated hard as rock German seating design and engineered auto's.

VW didn't take over Porsche. The Porsche family took over VW and then used VW to buy Porsche from themselves for themselves..... It raised a lot of eyebrows and questions from regulators.

24 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

VW didn't take over Porsche. The Porsche family took over VW and then used VW to buy Porsche from themselves for themselves..... It raised a lot of eyebrows and questions from regulators.

Thank you Drew, I did not know that, it always seems that VW took over Porsche. Crazy and I agree that should raise lots of eyebrows from the regulators and stock holders.

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Yep, I think them truly focusing on the luxury experience with quiet, comfortable and great service is taking them up a notch but it isn't a switch that can be flipped and then quadruple their sales. Word of mouth is the best advertisement and people with current Lincolns just need to have great experiences. 

They certainly do exist and I think it would be a shame to never offer another sedan again. I'm more disappointed they never really updated the Continental and gave it a refreshed "second" run. 

On a V8 Platform with the Mustang V8 and suicide doors it would blow away any of the AMG stuff that's brought up here....in looks and performance both. 

2 hours ago, David said:

You can count me as one of the folks that did not think Porsche would survive even with VW taking them over. SUVs is what saved them and the cars for the much fewer car lovers out there.

Ford FINALLY has a CEO and a leadership team that realizes that Lincoln Luxury DOES NOT have to be GERMAN copy to survive or succeed. We can have Tight enjoyable to drive American Auto's that also still have a proper plush American seating condition rather than the over rated hard as rock German seating design and engineered auto's.

There are a bunch of us that want domestics. I have owned several foreign cars, but came back domestic with my last purchase because Ford built something I wanted. I am a happy guy. 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

VW didn't take over Porsche. The Porsche family took over VW and then used VW to buy Porsche from themselves for themselves..... It raised a lot of eyebrows and questions from regulators.

When you have money and family ties, all things are posible. 

5 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Don't worry, neither does Mercedes, BMW, or Audi. Hell, any other brand. Toyota is clearly an outlier and you're also only looking at an insane market right now. Look at the used prices in a year from now and you will absolutely have depreciation on every used vehicle, Toyotas included. 

It is insane what first generation Tundras are bringing right now. As well as Four Runners and FJ cruisers. The overlanding thing has everyone wanting them. For a few grand more...a much newer and lower mileage domestic would be much more my speed. 

3 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

On a V8 Platform with the Mustang V8 and suicide doors it would blow away any of the AMG stuff that's brought up here....in looks and performance both. 

There are a bunch of us that want domestics. I have owned several foreign cars, but came back domestic with my last purchase because Ford built something I wanted. I am a happy guy. 

 

Would be nice, but never going to happen...it seems like we are just about at the end of the road for new ICE development...

20 hours ago, balthazar said:

 a circa $50K Tesla interior, and a same price range Lincoln sedan interior. Once Lincoln is also electrified and that variable is equal... who's going to chose the Tesla interior?
 

100% the Lincoln interior is better, and yet consumers are choosing the Tesla now.  The Continental is gone and the Model 3 was the 16th best selling car in the world last year with 439,760 units.  I think even if you make that interior and put it in an electric sedan, the Tesla will still outsell it on brand name alone.   But watch Lincoln price the Zypher at like $80k, if a Mach-E is $45-65k, you know a Lincoln will be more than that, and I think appetite is low for an expensive Lincoln sedan.

But they're NOT choosing Tesla for the interiors. Hence my post.

Tesla doesn't seem to have the ability or desire to put a luxury interior into their products, and in an industry era where just about everything has moved upscale. That's going to fester into a very tangible problem.

18 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

A C&D article I linked earlier showed preference to the E-Mach interior over the Tesla Model Y and that’s just a lowly little Ford. That should tell people all they need to know. 

The Mach-E interior is better than Tesla's.  People will still buy the Tesla over it for performance, technology, charging network and brand image.

It isn't as easy to just roll and EV out there and take out Tesla.  The EV purists probably won't even consider a car from a brand that makes ICE vehicles, the Tesla loyalists are die hard, they won't consider anything else, and for people that never have bought an EV, they are probably going to trust Tesla who has more EV experience than anyone and the best charging network than the traditional OEM's.  

Will take a lot of time, effort and money to displace Tesla as the top EV maker.

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Because they have such a bad reputation prior to like 2015ish. It takes A LONG TIME to finally convince people that something is worth spending luxury money on. They're finally making great products and not trying to be something they aren't. 

Mercedes has been in a decline since 2016. That must be rough to see. 

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mercedes-benz-us-figures/

 

Tesla happened.

So far this year they are outselling BMW, Lexus, Tesla, Volkswagen and Mazda.  They need their EV fleet to prevent people leaving them for Tesla.

6 hours ago, David said:

You can count me as one of the folks that did not think Porsche would survive even with VW taking them over. SUVs is what saved them and the cars for the much fewer car lovers out there.

Ford FINALLY has a CEO and a leadership team that realizes that Lincoln Luxury DOES NOT have to be GERMAN copy to survive or succeed. We can have Tight enjoyable to drive American Auto's that also still have a proper plush American seating condition rather than the over rated hard as rock German seating design and engineered auto's.

Porsche actually bought VW.

I also think copying Germans is a bad idea, Cadillac tried that for years with a lot of swing and miss products, and the Escalade which is traditional American and the opposite of German luxury has been their most successful product.  I don't know they they didn't do more vehicles with Escalade characteristics rather than E90 3-series characteristics.  

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla happened.

So far this year they are outselling BMW, Lexus, Tesla, Volkswagen and Mazda.  They need their EV fleet to prevent people leaving them for Tesla.

So then Mercedes is no longer the Best or nothing, people are leaving them with Nothing for something better from Tesla. Yet their day is over as Ford has stepped up with a superior truck that people will want. This also implies that Lincoln will have a hell of a BEV luxury line as that comes out.

25 minutes ago, balthazar said:

But they're NOT choosing Tesla for the interiors. Hence my post.

Tesla doesn't seem to have the ability or desire to put a luxury interior into their products, and in an industry era where just about everything has moved upscale. That's going to fester into a very tangible problem.

Or do younger buyers not care about burled walnut wood trim, supple leather and lambs wool rugs, and all the stuff you find in a Rolls-Royce or a 90s Jaguar?

Tesla with their let's call it mediocre interior, with a 4 model line up is still outselling Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, Audi, etc.  Brands with great names, long histories (except for Lexus) much better interiors than Tesla.  Maybe upscale isn't in wood and leather, and it is in tech, lifestyle, sustainable material seats made from recycled plastic, etc.  I am not saying it is, but Tesla has appeal with consumers, even with a worse interior than any rival.  The problem is more how do you predict today what the market will want in 2025 and how to you capture that volume that Tesla is seeing.

12 minutes ago, David said:

So then Mercedes is no longer the Best or nothing, people are leaving them with Nothing for something better from Tesla. Yet their day is over as Ford has stepped up with a superior truck that people will want. This also implies that Lincoln will have a hell of a BEV luxury line as that comes out.

 

Mercedes outsold Tesla in Q1 of 2021 in the USA, but Mercedes needs their EV's and they have 2022 S-class hitting dealers soon, new C-class is out in Europe so should be here soon, that is a good volume model.  But they need the EV's too for the consumer that will only consider EV.

And I think the Cybertruck will sell in big numbers.  People like what is new and exciting or different, the Cybertruck will deliver that, and with over 1,000 hp if you so choose. 

Mach-E only has like 3-4 months of sales performance out there, give it some more time. 

37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla happened.

Tesla is 18 years old. Tesla "didn't happen" in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 or even really in 2012, 2013.

How old is the Mach-E again?

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Or do younger buyers not care about

Young buyers aren't buyers.
Model 3 buyers' average age is a whopping 46.

24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Mach-E only has like 3-4 months of sales performance out there, give it some more time. 

Tesla is 18 years old. Tesla "didn't happen" in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 or even really in 2012, 2013.

How old is the Mach-E again?

Young buyers aren't buyers.
Model 3 buyers' average age is a whopping 46.

Tesla hit volume around 3-4 years ago when the Model 3 came out.  That has put a dent in all luxury brands.

46 is younger than the average new car buyer which is mid 50s.  

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla hit volume around 3-4 years ago when the Model 3 came out.  That has put a dent in all luxury brands.

46 is younger than the average new car buyer which is mid 50s.  

That still isn’t “young” by any stretch of the imagination and this is from a 48 year old. 

• 3-4 years ago is 14 YEARS into Tesla's existence. 

• Model S may be a luxury model, the Model 3 & Y are not. Model S gained some market share in its price tier, granted.
Of course, the Model 3 has significantly cannibalized the Model S's sales since, which is why Musk combined the sedan & CUV's sales numbers together; to mask the fall.

• 46 is only a few years younger than most other brands. It's not grabbing "young" buyers. Across ALL segments, buyers 24 & younger make up less than 1% of new vehicle purchases.
Jeep outguns Tesla in buyers aged 25-54 : 55% to 45%. Plus, BE vehicles post the highest percentage of 65+ aged buyers, at 32%. 
 

46 is a low average buyer age for a premium brand, lower probably than any luxury brand is.

46 is the ABA of the Model 3. 

Tesla as a brand's ABA is 54.

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes outsold Tesla in Q1 of 2021 in the USA, but Mercedes needs their EV's and they have 2022 S-class hitting dealers soon, new C-class is out in Europe so should be here soon, that is a good volume model.  But they need the EV's too for the consumer that will only consider EV.

And I think the Cybertruck will sell in big numbers.  People like what is new and exciting or different, the Cybertruck will deliver that, and with over 1,000 hp if you so choose. 

Who cares that Mercedes outsold Tesla, they should as they have a bigger portfolio of products compared to Tesla and using the same platform for so many various models should have it paid for so higher profits. COMMON SENSE!

Cybertruck will sell in LIMITED numbers as people will find much better options from other OEMs.

Tesla had their days and a complete recall of EVERYTHING they made in China that affects all china sold auto's and those shipped to Europe will hurt Tesla more than help them.

On top of this, my 34 year old son, works for Amazon on their cloud based products and wants an EV, thinks Tesla suck as being over priced for what you get and the interiors stink. They appeal to minimalists mostly and even those such as my neighbor who was looking at getting a tesla, now after seeing the Mach-e stopped those plans and is re-thinking what he wants with so many options coming to market later this year and next.

34 is young, a man who is not afraid to pay 50 to 75K for an auto and wants an SUV BEV find Tesla to be over rated. He is interested in Rivian and is excited to see what Jeep brings out as he loves his Rhino colored Jeep GC. As such, I think Tesla is in for some big challenges and issues.

The other thing is Alex does like what Lincoln is putting out and as such says he can drive his jeep a few more years as it is low mileage 2017 that he bought and wait to see what Lincoln brings to market along with others.

I honestly think many people are going to hold off on buying new CPO or true new auto's as they wait for BEVs to come to market. Those that have to buy an auto will, but I think the next few years are going to be interesting.

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

46 is a low average buyer age for a premium brand, lower probably than any luxury brand is.

Except you’re wrong. 
 

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla happened.

So far this year they are outselling BMW, Lexus, Tesla, Volkswagen and Mazda.  They need their EV fleet to prevent people leaving them for Tesla.

Unfortunately, their EV fleet either looks like complete garbage or they've been extremely underwhelming. 0-60 slower than a three model year older Tesla and less than 200 miles of range?!?! That's worse than what Ford offers. I'm not sure why anybody would leave Tesla for an equally expensive yet underwhelming EQC, whenever it may finally come here, after its delays. 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Unfortunately, their EV fleet either looks like complete garbage or they've been extremely underwhelming. 0-60 slower than a three model year older Tesla and less than 200 miles of range?!?! That's worse than what Ford offers. I'm not sure why anybody would leave Tesla for an equally expensive yet underwhelming EQC, whenever it may finally come here, after its delays. 

The EQC will probably never come here.  I think the USA will only get Mercedes dedicated EV platform vehicles, and they will have replaced the current EQC and EQA  that are built on the MRA and MFA platforms by the time they are ready to bring them to USA.  They had to get EQC and EQA out in Europe or face billion dollar emissions fines.

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Porsche actually bought VW.

 

I also think copying Germans is a bad idea, Cadillac tried that for years with a lot of swing and miss products, and the Escalade which is traditional American and the opposite of German luxury has been their most successful product.  I don't know they they didn't do more vehicles with Escalade characteristics rather than E90 3-series characteristics.  

 

It is HILARIOUS that you can get so easily confused by names.  It's just like when you think the 3.6 liter GM makes today is the same as the 3.6 liter they made in my 2004 CTS simply because they have the same displacement (SMK - "Oh, that's such an old engine, they've been building it since 2004") even though they are not at all related or interchangeable. 

You've done the same thing here and that chart is drastically oversimplified.

The Porsche family owned the old Porsche AG.  They changed the name to Porsche SE and spun off the manufacturing business to a new Porsche AG. Of which they hold controlling interest. 

Porsche SE then bought a controlling interest in Volkswagen AG and simultaneously sold Porsche AG to VW AG.  VW AG also owns Audi AG. Audi AG owns the Audi brand, Audi Sport GmbH (the RS cars, and curiously a separate company from Audi AG), Automobile Lamborghini SPA, and SEAT SA, each as their own companies, not divisions like the way GM and Ford are set up. However, VW AG has an operating agreement with its own subsidiary Audi AG to co-run SEAT SA. Lamborghini SPA is the sole owner of Ducati SPA even thought Uncle VW put up the cash for them. Audi Sport GmbH is the sole owner of Volkswagen R GmbH... meaning that Porsche SE owns VW AG owns Audi AG owns Audi Sport GmbH owns VW R GmbH.

VW AG also owns:

Bentley Ltd. 100%

Volkswagen of France who in turn owns Bugatti S.A.S

TRATON SE (Formerly VW Truck and Bus) which owns MAN SE and Scania AB

Skoda Auto S.A.S

If it seems like a shell game. It is.  All of these separate companies sell time, engineering, materials, and cars to each other as if they are separate companies.  For example, if you buy an RS Audi, the body and most parts are built by Audi AG, which then sells the shell to Audi Sport GmbH which adds its own parts to complete the car, then the car is sold to one of the many Audi regional holding groups to sell the car to the dealerships.  If you get a VW R model, the shell is built by VW, sold to VW R (who is owned by Audi Sport GmbH who is owned by Audi AG who is owned by VW AG). VW R fits the sporty bits, and then sells the car to one of the regional VW distribution companies.

Sometime when I have more time I want to try and build a flow chart of who owns who in this crazy family tree.  VW Group has to be the largest employer of tax accountants in the EU. 

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The EQC will probably never come here.  I think the USA will only get Mercedes dedicated EV platform vehicles, and they will have replaced the current EQC and EQA  that are built on the MRA and MFA platforms by the time they are ready to bring them to USA.  They had to get EQC and EQA out in Europe or face billion dollar emissions fines.

Maybe they shouldn't have half-@ssed a product from the get-go. 

They pulled a Ford Focus Electric. 

22 hours ago, David said:

You can count me as one of the folks that did not think Porsche would survive even with VW taking them over. SUVs is what saved them and the cars for the much fewer car lovers out there.

Ford FINALLY has a CEO and a leadership team that realizes that Lincoln Luxury DOES NOT have to be GERMAN copy to survive or succeed. We can have Tight enjoyable to drive American Auto's that also still have a proper plush American seating condition rather than the over rated hard as rock German seating design and engineered auto's.

I was a longtime Porsche fan, even after VW ownership (and that is exactly what it was, in the end) but they are just ridiculous high for all the wrong reasons, even with being great driving machines. I miss my dads "undercover VW" '74 914. That had the old VW flat four with fuel injection. My dad swapped out the fuel injectors for a couple of twin barrel Webers, that ran great for about a month before the backfiring problems started and ruined everything lol. Such a fun little car that I only got to ride in, as my dad was not about to let his 16 year old son drive his baby, especially after that same son got a speeding ticket in an '81 Chevette (yes, it is possible to get one in a Chevette).