President Trump Announces EPA Will Reopen Reivew of 2025 Fuel Economy Rules

No way California should be special with that ridiculous waiver.  Squash it!  Let the market decide!  It is basic common sense that a market driven auto industry would greatly benefit consumers and the companies alike!  So easy to understand.

12 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

As I mentioned, any relaxation of CAFE is going to do next to nothing for manufacturers. California is going to get to keep it's waiver and about a dozen other states follow the California standards. You can't even buy California specific cars anymore.... They just build them all to that standard. 

Trump is again, over promising and under delivering.

Drew this not personal just at you but a general rant to the programmed progressive left that is getting their lunch stolen by the very people they support and have no clue they are eating right in front of them. Trust me the far right are not saints either. God knows I would love to stuff a dirty sock in McCain's mouth. 

While you spew the petty bickering petty MSNBC programmed hate this is what has been going on at the EPA. 

During the Obama administration the EPA was run by far left political appointee's with a pure agenda of change outside the laws of this country and constitution. 

This is what I have been involved in being a part of the performance aftermarket and racing industry targeted by these people. The EPA and the Appointed people by Obama took it upon themselves to read the laws on the books passed by the House and Senate and reinterpret them to fit their needs and far left progressive ideas. What did they do? 

Well they took the laws that said you could not tamper with emissions or disable emission on a new car. Well the law was written and intended to represent all road going vehicles and was passed by the House and Senate to become law. They took the law and decided to take it upon themselves to claim it means all vehicles even off road and racing vehicles. That was never a part of the intent of the law and they basically took it upon themselves to dictate law by passing our system in the house and senate. The While House was fully behind this as they appointed the people doing this. 

So what did I do. Did i go out with petty bickering and pure hate on the web with pre programmed Obama hate quotes from Sean Hannity....No. 

I took to the system and along with my co workers gathered several letter writing campaigns to our house ans senate representation pointing out that this would Kill grass roots racing of all kinds. It would destroy a multi billion dollar industry of racing and performance parts. It also would put hundreds of thousands out of work not only in our industry but also the race tracks, hotels, the RV industry, food service and more. 

We also pointed out that the EPA appointees were by passing the way our country was formed by going though the proper channels to get the house and senate to pass the laws that the EPA just enforce. 

This was all done in a way that no one was supposed to have notice but SEMA was there and caught it in time. Out letters and others were able to get the RPM act in action and now with a more bi partisan  conservative group it should be passed in the near future to prevent this from happening again. 

When I say Bi Partisan I mean to the point I have even got a visit by Rep Tim Ryan [D] of the 13th district at my desk. This was a big deal that never hit the news and is only one of many things deployed during the Obama administration. 

Sure I could sit here and piss and moan about how his failed foreign policy has made this an even more dangerous world than even after Bush. Don't believe me just ask one of my middle east customers. Or a laundry list that could be read. 

I acted in this case and I voted. While I have never found my true pure leader I had to pick the best of what was given. We are not given much but at least it is not someone who at least did something on his own vs. just working the political circuit to the top. 

Lets face it and I mean this in no racial way but Obama would never have been elected or supported by the Democrats if he was white. The same with Hilary as they ran her for two reasons one she was a woman and two the Clintons had owned the progressive Democratic Party. 

If they wanted to win the office they need to look to a Tim Ryan or a Senator Joe Manchin of WV that could bridge the gap between the left and right and may just get something done. Yet now they turn even farther left. 

Now the right is not any better off so I give them no pass but they tend to support the true cores of our past a little better for people to be more self reliant and more to accept responsibility for their lives while the left is more worried about playing or making everyone a victim yet while many in DC that they are supporting steal their lunch and eat it. 

Drew as I said this is not a personal shot at you. You and many like you have very good intent and mean well but yet you are taken advantage of by the very people you support and often do not even see it happening. 

We should be wary of every one and we should stick to the laws we have and use the system to change them if we want change. But appointing activist to change laws is wrong as is putting in judges that want to legislate law and not interpret it like the 9th circuit. 

We really need to get back to the basics and people need to stop worrying about being the victim. The reality is life is not always going to be fair. Stand up for your rights is one thing but to cry every time you feel slighted will leave you nothing but a petty bickering person that is never happy with anything. 

In life you win some and you lose some and you come back to try to win again. Bitching about someone because they own a Rolls is not going to change the world. In fact that car is as much a prop for Trump as anything as what attracts investors success and the symbol of success is Rolls Royce. Hard to get people to invest if you drive a Pacer. 

23 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

No way California should be special with that ridiculous waiver.  Squash it!  Let the market decide!  It is basic common sense that a market driven auto industry would greatly benefit consumers and the companies alike!  So easy to understand.

When California defaults due to all the social programs and liberal causes they spend on they will turn to the Feds asking for money and that is when pay back is a J$$&&$.

The people on the coast have had their brains corroded by the salt air. The people that live and work in the valley despise them. 

I skipped to the end and didn't bother with the rest.  I'll probably have to delete 90% of it for being too political off the topic at hand when I do read it.

I don't care if someone owns a Rolls... he can own 10 of them and I still won't care. The issue I have is his "Buy American" rhetoric while he doesn't do so himself. His car is a Rolls, his ties come from China... up until someone point out the hypocrisy, even his early MAGA hats came from China. His daughter imported 53 metric tons of merchandise from China just last year.

Don't stand in front of a Cruze lecturing me about buying American and then ride off in a Rolls.   I'm personally not all that wedded to the idea of buying American cars for America's sake. I have a Honda built in Ohio and a Buick built in Korea in my driveway... 

Buy the car that suits you best regardless of where it is built. CheersandGears.com is here to help you make that decision.

36 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

No way California should be special with that ridiculous waiver.  Squash it!  Let the market decide!  It is basic common sense that a market driven auto industry would greatly benefit consumers and the companies alike!  So easy to understand.

States rights... except when states want their rights?

States can pick one of two regulations.  The California Regs, which 13 states follow, or the Federal Regs.   Manufacturers aren't interested in building two different version, so they just build everything to the California Regs.  

Manufacturers also still have to build to other countries regs. So whichever country has the toughest regulations, that's what the cars will get built to.  There will be some differences on the fringes... but the meat of the market... the mainstream size 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder engines will all be globalized as much as possible with minor ECM tuning at best. 

Changes to the CAFE standards really aren't going to result in any changes for at least the next 5 years and probably on for another 10. The next generation of engines is already well into development, and those engines are typically produced for a decade or more at a time. 

At best, one of the engines that is currently legal might get an extra few years reprieve before being replaced..... and nothing bad ever happens when GM or Ford leave an old, technologically out of date engine in production far beyond its expiration date.  Oh goodie... I might still be able to get a 2.4 Ecotec in 2025. Put me on a waiting list.

30 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I skipped to the end and didn't bother with the rest.  I'll probably have to delete 90% of it for being too political off the topic at hand when I do read it.

I don't care if someone owns a Rolls... he can own 10 of them and I still won't care. The issue I have is his "Buy American" rhetoric while he doesn't do so himself. His car is a Rolls, his ties come from China... up until someone point out the hypocrisy, even his early MAGA hats came from China. His daughter imported 53 metric tons of merchandise from China just last year.

Don't stand in front of a Cruze lecturing me about buying American and then ride off in a Rolls.   I'm personally not all that wedded to the idea of buying American cars for America's sake. I have a Honda built in Ohio and a Buick built in Korea in my driveway... 

Buy the car that suits you best regardless of where it is built. CheersandGears.com is here to help you make that decision.

So you admit you will censor someone who leans right but you will encourage someone to say ANYTHING off topic and political in a thread, if they lean left?  Unbalanced.  Transparently so.

You know for certain he purchased the Rolls-Royce he is photographed driving?  Do you believe celebrities are ever given products and/or services by companies as a marketing tool... product placement?

like i said, I didn't read it, but most of it looks like it is neither about the EPA nor Trump...  Trump talked about the EPA, US auto manufacturers, and buying US cars. Tell me where here did I encourage anyone to post off those topics?  Pointing out Trumps hypocrisy on the matter isn't off topic. Talking about EVs in regards to EPA regulations is on topic.  New engine tech for saving fuel in trucks? On topic. The consumer shift from cars to SUVs and the effect on fuel economy?  On topic. 

He has multiple Rollers including a 1956 Silver Cloud (not going to knock him for owning a classic).  He also has a 2005 SLR McLaren and until 2016 a Lambo Diablo (year, I don't know). It has been reported that he's always been a Rolls man, which doesn't surprise me. 

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

No way California should be special with that ridiculous waiver.  Squash it!  Let the market decide!  It is basic common sense that a market driven auto industry would greatly benefit consumers and the companies alike!  So easy to understand.

And yet if we left it like you say we all would still be driving lead fueled auto's breathing terrible air and dying off while the 1% are richer and saying who cares, I got my profit.

You have to have a balance and right now the EPA is out of balance with technology and time, but you have to push the auto companies. They would still be in a early 1970's model if not for the oil crises and gov pushing to clean up the air.

Hell you might not have even been born as lead was greatly reducing male sperm.

4 minutes ago, dfelt said:

And yet if we left it like you say we all would still be driving lead fueled auto's breathing terrible air and dying off while the 1% are richer and saying who cares, I got my profit.

You have to have a balance and right now the EPA is out of balance with technology and time, but you have to push the auto companies. They would still be in a early 1970's model if not for the oil crises and gov pushing to clean up the air.

Hell you might not have even been born as lead was greatly reducing male sperm.

Spoken like a man who is afflicted with West Coast Syndrome.  A mind is a terrible thing to waste.  And you are thinking you are speaking my mind for me... again.  It is the man bun hairdo and the Toyota Prius that are "greatly reducing male sperm".

1 minute ago, ocnblu said:

Spoken like a man who is afflicted with West Coast Syndrome.  A mind is a terrible thing to waste.  And you are thinking you are speaking my mind for me... again.

Nope never will think I speak for you, or anyone else. Just pointing out that gov plays a role in balancing out business especially when business is slow to change for the better of the planet and humans.

I respect yours and everyone else's opinion. I am just going to point out the need to come back to center. Balance for the better of humanity and the planet. 

This is all about the good of the whole not the one.

Trump is trying to gut the EPA for the good of the 1, this being the overpaid CEO's of companies that would like to go unchanged making a profit while damaging the planet and or humanity.

Drew it is fully about the EPA and how for 8 years it was run by agenda people that were appointed as is in most cases but this time the tried to change the laws of this country with out going through proper channels. 

I guess the truth hurts. 

i guess it ok to just make petty complaints about what some drives as that really pertains to the EPA. 

It is ok Drew I am done. You can remove the words but you will never edit the truth that is out there. 

Funny how those who want tollorance often are the least tallorant. 

The bottom line is the needs to balance all needs here with the EPA as not to do anymore damage to the economy or the environment. To do so both sides need to work together for the good of all. 

Where is this wrong? We could use a bit more of that in many other places.

i am done!

The 1990's were a perfect example of Right and Left coming together to achieve much.

We have lost those days of talking and negotiating to get programs achieved that are good for the planet and humanity.

I haven't taken a stance on the EPA in general, so I don't know what you're going on about. I'm just saying that changing federal CAFE standards isn't going to do anything for consumers or manufacturers since California is still getting their waiver.  All of the stuff you're taking about with RVs and SEMA has nothing to do with what Trump is proposing.  I'm not against relaxing those rules.... You just assumed. You went off on that whole tirade when my position was really quite clear.

It's a simple statement: Relaxing CAFE doesn't change the automotive manufacturing landscape. Not now. Not in 5 years. Probably not in 10 years. Even a wholesale repeal of CAFE won't change anything for at least 2 more product cycles.  

Nothing Trump promises will change that. He is over promising and under delivering.

8 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I haven't taken a stance on the EPA in general, so I don't know what you're going on about. I'm just saying that changing federal CAFE standards isn't going to do anything for consumers or manufacturers since California is still getting their waiver.  All of the stuff you're taking about with RVs and SEMA has nothing to do with what Trump is proposing.  I'm not against relaxing those rules.... You just assumed. You went off on that while tirade when my position was really quite clear.

It's a simple statement: Relaxing CAFE doesn't change the automotive manufacturing landscape. Not now. Not in 5 years. Probably not in 10 years. Even a wholesale repeal of CAFE won't change anything for at least 2 more product cycles.  

Nothing Trump promises will change that. He is over promising and under delivering.

This is what it comes down to Half Ton Trucks

the MFGs are going to make the cars global and mostly turbo charged 4 cylinder. 

But in this country they still need to move trucks in the half ton class and the law is killing that. This is why we have the mid size and a push to get people in the 3/4 ton class. 

They are not going to toss everything out and make major changes to their plans but they want and need more room on the light trucks.

as for California they don't care as that is not their biggest truck market. They can work around them and the mid size is growing sales there anyways.

this comes down to profits and they all will take a hit in fines and consumers in price if the go as it is now. 

The Obama EPA has over stepped and over expected at the expense of jobs and the cost of new cars to the consumer.

this still needs to be managed in a balanced way.

As for California many companies in the after market are getting more and more to the point of walking away from the state. Many have moved out and many no longer sell product there as ther is no profit in being there anymore.

CARB is just not worth dealing with anymore.

I think the recent resurgence of the mid-size truck class has a lot more to do with full-size trucks getting so large and so expensive. It has little to do with fuel economy as gas prices are relatively cheap right now.

Sorry @hyperv6 but if you think John McCain is "far right", then that pretty much kills your entire argument as it shows you really don't know what "far right" is. McCain is called a RINO here in Arizona, for the record which is the opposite of a far right politician. BTW, the "truth", as you put it, is certainly up to interpretation and debate given your need to deal in absolutes in matters like this. 

And Drew is right, everyone has been folllowing Cali's lead in regards to emissions and such and it won't stop now for the reasons he already mentioned. 

"State rights"-A term conservatives love to use but only when it is conevenient to their agenda. 

That is all I have to say about this.

12 hours ago, ocnblu said:

So you admit you will censor someone who leans right but you will encourage someone to say ANYTHING off topic and political in a thread, if they lean left?  Unbalanced.  Transparently so.

 

You know for certain he purchased the Rolls-Royce he is photographed driving?  Do you believe celebrities are ever given products and/or services by companies as a marketing tool... product placement?

Google is your friend. All one needs to do is type in "cars that Trump owns". The man is a hypocrite, plain and simple yet his supporters never seem to want to hold him accountable for a single thing he says or does that exposes him as the hypocrite he is. Baffling. It's like a political version of Stockholm Syndrome.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I think the recent resurgence of the mid-size truck class has a lot more to do with full-size trucks getting so large and so expensive. It has little to do with fuel economy as gas prices are relatively cheap right now.

Drew it may be size but not price. 

I am am right now dealing on a Colorado and Canyon and I can get a Loaded Z71 for what they want for my want on the two trucks I am looking at.

i agree on MPG at the moment.

To be honest I have great pause at time and often consider the larger truck just due to the better value. I have had many Aldo tell me I am nuts to pay the same for a smaller truck.

4 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

Drew it may be size but not price. 

I am am right now dealing on a Colorado and Canyon and I can get a Loaded Z71 for what they want for my want on the two trucks I am looking at.

i agree on MPG at the moment.

To be honest I have great pause at time and often consider the larger truck just due to the better value. I have had many Aldo tell me I am nuts to pay the same for a smaller truck.

Yes, the mid-size trucks can get absurd when you get to the higher trims. I'm in the same boat going back and forth between a loaded Canyon SLT or a mid level Sierra All Terrain. 

It's at the lower end where the value of the mid-size trucks shows up because they are more consumers spec there while the low end full size truck are construction grade.

8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yes, the mid-size trucks can get absurd when you get to the higher trims. I'm in the same boat going back and forth between a loaded Canyon SLT or a mid level Sierra All Terrain. 

It's at the lower end where the value of the mid-size trucks shows up because they are more consumers spec there while the low end full size truck are construction grade.

Not at the moment as I have seen low end full size all star package V6 models with 4x4 for $30k.

hard to get much of either under $28k.

Saw Two Black Colorado Crew Cab Z71 with Duramax Diesel today as I drove up to ski.

They were awesome looking. One had a canopy and the other just a LineX bedliner. Both just blew by going up the pass.

EPA seems to have not stopped people from buying these fully loaded babies.

So as has been stated, I fully expect the 2025 MPG mandate to get pushed out, but not go away. CARB also is not going anywhere.

It is amazing to see that while some companies have left California, many have doubled down or moved there for various reasons. One is the educated workforce, climate and various other incentives. As our largest, most populous state, I find it hard to say that CARB is not going to continue to influence the auto industry in many ways.

I am working to order a ZR2 right now and it has been a challenge. 

Dealers have been pretty clueless and GM keeps changing the options available.

some dealers want MSRP but often I have been the first and only one to enquire. I am not paying MSRP for a RPO truck. They are a little giddy over it being called a limited allocation.

i have considered a Canyon SLT or Denali as I found one at a goo price.

i did look at a $50k full size Z71 but I do not want a big truck. But at $40k it was a thought. 

I did find a loaded All Terrain GMC Canyon for $29k but it was missing the Bose and I want to avoid the 16 models as I want the new engine and 8 speed as it drives much more refined and has more bottom end.

i hope to know the first of the week if I am buying the Z I am looking to order. 

Carb will I'll for sure not go away but I do see them challenged more and I do see California being limited or excluded from some products.

in the performance market there are a ton of items we can not sell there we sell everywhere else.

in the past cars like the Turbo TA were never sold there and once they were the home of the 305 Corvette. 

In the end I see the consumers will be the loser as they will be kept from buying products others can get else where. 

The auto makers just want some more time as they are not going to make the present timeline. 

To be honest I feel they had hoped EV would have advanced and been accepted much better by now but the advances in technology and lower prices have been slow.

The Bolt is the first real landmark car in price and range but there is still work to do also not all customers will be happy with a car like this.

Its hard to sell a steak to a Vegan.

When a midsize truck gets 19.8-20 MPG and a fullsize can match it, it becomes obvious how difficult it is to build a product that remains viable and meets the ridiculous standards.

41 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

When a midsize truck gets 19.8-20 MPG and a fullsize can match it, it becomes obvious how difficult it is to build a product that remains viable and meets the ridiculous standards.

The balancing of meeting crash and emissions standards vs. keeping product to where people want it and can afford  while still making money it is about as easy as curing Cancer.

they could meet the standard very easily but no one would buy the small package or be able to afford it at this point in the technology.

It is a real problem when you have people passing laws that many of which do not even drive anymore or even know enough about cars to know how to check their own oil.

Many say just put on hybrid systems but the added cost would drive people away. 

Any new system and vehicle needs to be affordable and one that ones life style will not have to adapt to for most people to accept them.

47 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

When a midsize truck gets 19.8-20 MPG and a fullsize can match it, it becomes obvious how difficult it is to build a product that remains viable and meets the ridiculous standards.

Do the mid-sizer have AFM yet?  I bet that would help substantially.  It seems to be the main driver as to how a 5.3 liter Suburban can manage it. 

@hyperv6 @ocnblu @Drew Dowdell 

Check out this review by a Tesla Owner on his test drive of a BOLT when visiting California. Pretty impressive and even he says GM did good. He does not believe it will affect the Tesla 3 and there are things he does not like compared to his Tesla S. There are also things that he states shows GM superior engineering over Tesla. Over all he liked it and was very happy to go to a chevy dealer and find plenty of BOLTS out front by the Street clear and easy to find unlike the East coast that has them hidden in the back lot.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109388_chevy-bolt-ev-tested-by-tesla-model-s-owner-his-assessment

26 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Do the mid-sizer have AFM yet?  I bet that would help substantially.  It seems to be the main driver as to how a 5.3 liter Suburban can manage it. 

My dad's truck is a 2004 extended cab 5.3L 4X4... built before all the extra complications, and his truck can easily match mine in fuel mileage.  So what is the problem?  He's no hypermiler.  This is what we're talking about with the burden of regulations that don't solve anything... they just add cost.  A truck is a truck.  It still needs to move loads, it still needs to be a capable vehicle.

3 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

My dad's truck is a 2004 extended cab 5.3L 4X4... built before all the extra complications, and his truck can easily match mine in fuel mileage.  So what is the problem?  He's no hypermiler.  This is what we're talking about with the burden of regulations that don't solve anything... they just add cost.  A truck is a truck.  It still needs to move loads, it still needs to be a capable vehicle.

Not on the highway he can't. Remember, I had the same vintage Avalanche and 19 was the best I could do even when I was being careful. You've posted 26 or 27 highway on here before.

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Do the mid-sizer have AFM yet?  I bet that would help substantially.  It seems to be the main driver as to how a 5.3 liter Suburban can manage it. 

They have it on the new 3.6 and the numbers remained the same. It also has the 8 speed and yet the same numbers in mpg an HP.

though the drivability is much better and low end performance is much stronger. It picked up about 8 tenths in the quarter mile.

i see the aluminum/steel mix coming to the next gen. 

If nothing changes the half ton could go away as a full size and makers may just default to the 3/4 ton as the base full size. They have much less numbers to meet.

i think this was one reason GM went back to the mid size and why Ford has been waiting.

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Not on the highway he can't. Remember, I had the same vintage Avalanche and 19 was the best I could do even when I was being careful. You've posted 26 or 27 highway on here before.

He says he gets 22-23 on the highway.  After researching my Members Rides thread, my best tank was 25 MPG, which consisted of a road trip to Ocean City, MD. 

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

@hyperv6 @ocnblu @Drew Dowdell 

Check out this review by a Tesla Owner on his test drive of a BOLT when visiting California. Pretty impressive and even he says GM did good. He does not believe it will affect the Tesla 3 and there are things he does not like compared to his Tesla S. There are also things that he states shows GM superior engineering over Tesla. Over all he liked it and was very happy to go to a chevy dealer and find plenty of BOLTS out front by the Street clear and easy to find unlike the East coast that has them hidden in the back lot.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109388_chevy-bolt-ev-tested-by-tesla-model-s-owner-his-assessment

I was impressed by the Bolt I was in. The room is great and even with cheap interior it felt decent. I liked the designs in the light color trim.

The first thing Chevy needs to do is stop any comparisons to either Tesla as neither are comparible.

The S is a total different class car in price and size. The 3 is going to be much more expensive than the Bolt by the time you get the option you want. Even Musk said the base price of $36k was going to go up. I am sure it will be a fine car but it will slot in over the Bolt and under S and still be more than the average buyer will pay.

Autoweek has a very good story on the Bolt this week.

On 3/17/2017 at 9:27 AM, ccap41 said:

Go on...

We'll see what happens. Part of the reason I went for the Malibu was the new power train and its FE. It drove so much smoother than older gm 4 bangers and the turbo really helps with torque. 

I've had the oil pan fixed twice for leaks and the Ecm was reprogrammed under recall to stop preignition issues that have been melting pistons  per what I have been able to tell, my drivability is less and power seems a bit less  Mpg has been quite reduced but I still may chalk that up to winter blend gas (I've logged every tank since I got it)  one time I pulled well over 40 mpg on a 50 mile stretch on a road trip where the car rode like silk  lately not as smooth  on another forum site the theory is the ecm recall has neutered the car and it was origInally set up to score big fe ratings for cafe  

ford had complaints when their fusion and escape came out that there was issues and fe was  not as advertised  my car was getting advertised fe before the issues and before winter no problem  I only have about 8400 miles on it  I would hope gm didn't screw this up  it's not worth the low power output of this little 1.5 if the fuel economy doesn't come with it  

i would like to see them dial back the fe and cafe pressures for awhile. Let's work on improving reliability and making the technology more affordable  I still love turbo though  I'd like to see technology move towards smaller v6 turbos  like 2.5 turbo v6 for sedans  

Ideally, we should switch from a CAFE mandate to an all-electric option mandate. This would 

1) Boost electric volume, creating greater economies of scale.

2) Greater competition would increase range and decrease costs of electrics

3) Rapid charging stations would become commonplace,since charging times are supposed to be dropping from 20 minutes to 2 within 5 years thanks to ultracapacitors . We could even mandate major gas stations offer rapid chargers to encourage the trend further, like we did with E85. 

4) I think this could get wide bipartisan support. 

16 minutes ago, carman21 said:

Rapid charging stations would become commonplace, since charging times are supposed to be dropping from 20 minutes to 2 within 5 years thanks to ultracapacitors .

Here is a story on Ultracapacitors from 2013 were they do talk about the benefits of them with EV's and Hybrids..

http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=30444

2016 MIT Story where they finally admit that Ultracapacitors did not take off in EVs due to limitations especially around carbon in in the capacitor. MIT now has a carbon free capacitor that has far greater storage and power capacity and should help to fulfill the dreams of fast charging and boosted power needs with carbon free capacitors.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/12/mit-adds-new-material-to-supercapacitor-for-better-evs-maybe/

Future is looking Green!  

On 2017-03-17 at 1:45 PM, surreal1272 said:

Agreed but only one of those has had them for a century while bemoaning the other two for the exact same thing. 

Id say...to have a level playing field...

EV and ethanol should ALSO get 100 years of subsidies, then we could call it quits!!!

FAIR is only FAIR!!!

I think that if we were to use actual dollar valuation of the times that they were spent that we aren't too far from even now but that's just an in uneducated gut feeling I could be in the outfield with this but I don't have the time to research it properly. It's just so much money has been spent lately like the amount spent in Presidential terms.

Moving technology fast takes a lot of capital. While private companies are spending a lot it is no where in relation to what the space program used to spend. The government used a lot of seed money to push the program and that is where our technology boom came from. China is trying this now along with stealing more tech info.

Cost of development is just so high it is hard to do all they used to do even with today technology.  

The government also has little seed money today with the budgets out of hand. 

While many push for the Mars program to drive technology it is just so expensive no one can afford it easily. 

Piss poor mgmt. of the Gov fiscal responsibility with social service and defense run amuck. 

Plus forced inflation by crazy over paying of Chariman of the board to CEO all the way down to the cashier with the stupid Living wage minimum wage crap.

$15 hr for no knowledge or training is BS.

All of this is killing America.

Latest tank:  390.5 miles, put 19.626 gallons back in.  19.897075 MPG.  If we're counting.

4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Latest tank:  390.5 miles, put 19.626 gallons back in.  19.897075 MPG.  If we're counting.

Not to shabby for a truck like yours.