NACS the North American New Charging Standard?

The NACS plug seems to be the standard in North America now, thanks to Tesla.  I have no idea if this Tesla standard is better than the SAE standard or not.

NACS will become the standard in North America for sure.  It might become the standard elsewhere in time, look how much sleeker and simpler the Tesla charger looks compared to CCS.  Tesla might not only have 25% of US car sales in 10 years, they might have 50% of the EV charge network too.

15 hours ago, riviera74 said:

The NACS plug seems to be the standard in North America now, thanks to Tesla.  I have no idea if this Tesla standard is better than the SAE standard or not.

There have been stories posted about the difference between NACS and CCS1. 

Munro & Associates explain why Tesla’s NACS is superior to CCS [Video] - Drive Tesla (driveteslacanada.ca)

Yet the biggest endorsement one can get is the Munro endorsement that shows the NACS is superior to the SAE CCS1/CCS2 standard that was developed.

Seems the NACS port has the ability to be used for both home and commercial DC charging reducing the size of the port/charge cord. 

NACS has also been tested by Munro and surpasses the maximum charging power capability by supporting up to 1 MW (Megawatt) of power.

CCS1 is rated at 350 kW (kilowatts) of power. Testing has proven that the CCS specification does not handle more than the rated power safely compared to the NACS. SAE is now saying they will deliver a new CCS specification that would surpass NACS. But like many things when a governing body is slow to respond, too little too late.

While the NACS is not the standard that many recognize like the SAE CCS, the public voting with their wallets will end up stating what the standard will become and with NACS already surpassing the CCS, I see no reason why NACS will not become the standard.

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

NACS will become the standard in North America for sure.  It might become the standard elsewhere in time, look how much sleeker and simpler the Tesla charger looks compared to CCS.  Tesla might not only have 25% of US car sales in 10 years, they might have 50% of the EV charge network too.

50% charging network I would not expect from Tesla in 10 years. The oil companies and electric supply companies are not going to sit on the sideline and ignore this new energy boom by consumers. As Shell has already done over seas and I have posted about here.

Shell Oil Corporation is the one to watch as they have been buying up EV charging station companies in Europe and Asia over the last few years and now here in the U.S. as they plan to add to their gas stations EV charging stations and expand by buying up existing companies.

Shell USA, Inc. finalizes acquisition of Volta Inc., scaling up its U.S. public electric vehicle charging network | Shell United States

Shell’s new EV smart charging service | Shell United States

Shell Invests Heavily Into EV Charging Stations | U.S. News (usnews.com)

Shell has jumped to be a major player in just a year with EV charging stations. I expect SHELL to do a much better job at keeping their charging stations online and reliable.

1 hour ago, David said:

50% charging network I would not expect from Tesla in 10 years. The oil companies and electric supply companies are not going to sit on the sideline and ignore this new energy boom by consumers. As Shell has already done over seas and I have posted about here.

Shell Oil Corporation is the one to watch as they have been buying up EV charging station companies in Europe and Asia over the last few years and now here in the U.S. as they plan to add to their gas stations EV charging stations and expand by buying up existing companies.

Shell USA, Inc. finalizes acquisition of Volta Inc., scaling up its U.S. public electric vehicle charging network | Shell United States

Shell’s new EV smart charging service | Shell United States

Shell Invests Heavily Into EV Charging Stations | U.S. News (usnews.com)

Shell has jumped to be a major player in just a year with EV charging stations. I expect SHELL to do a much better job at keeping their charging stations online and reliable.

Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like they are going to be re-selling electricity and actually generating it.  Tesla is using solar to generate electricity and will install mega pack batteries in the ground to store it so they aren’t going to be paying for electricity.  They can undercut Shell or anyone else on price per kWh.

we need more charge network but I feel like most gas stations are poorly run businesses that are only in business because people have to fuel their cars.  Once they can fuel at home or from Tesla, people won’t go to Shell or Exxon stations.  

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like they are going to be re-selling electricity and actually generating it.  Tesla is using solar to generate electricity and will install mega pack batteries in the ground to store it so they aren’t going to be paying for electricity.  They can undercut Shell or anyone else on price per kWh.

we need more charge network but I feel like most gas stations are poorly run businesses that are only in business because people have to fuel their cars.  Once they can fuel at home or from Tesla, people won’t go to Shell or Exxon stations.  

Road trips will always happen, and people will always need to recharge their EVs, as such, people will go to brand names and just not Tesla. As one who does many road trips, one never knows when one needs to use a bathroom, want a snack or drink and as the convenience of gas stations, converting them to charging stations will give options.

Why would I or anyone else that are just blocks away from our local Jackson Shell Mart drive 2.8 miles to a Tesla Charging station if there are chargers at the Jackson Shell Station? Prices will be competitive; I do not see Tesla losing money to get people to only charge at their stations.

Tesla has a subscription service for charging, this is no different than all the folks that have Shell credit cards, Mobil Credit Cards, Exxon Credit cards, the end result is convenience and folks will use what is convenient to them.

2 hours ago, David said:

Road trips will always happen, and people will always need to recharge their EVs, as such, people will go to brand names and just not Tesla. As one who does many road trips, one never knows when one needs to use a bathroom, want a snack or drink and as the convenience of gas stations, converting them to charging stations will give options.

Why would I or anyone else that are just blocks away from our local Jackson Shell Mart drive 2.8 miles to a Tesla Charging station if there are chargers at the Jackson Shell Station? Prices will be competitive; I do not see Tesla losing money to get people to only charge at their stations.

Tesla has a subscription service for charging, this is no different than all the folks that have Shell credit cards, Mobil Credit Cards, Exxon Credit cards, the end result is convenience and folks will use what is convenient to them.

They will drive 2.8 miles if Tesla is at 25 cents per kWh and the rest of them are at 50 cents. 
 

This is the same issue with the cars themselves.  If Tesla wins on price, which they are right now, they are going to clobber everyone.   The Tesla charger network will likely be superior and cheaper than whatever the other guys come up with.  And sure people will use other charge networks but Tesla could have 50% and all the other guys could have 50%.  Kind of like cell phone carriers, there are a lot out there but Verizon and AT&T have 65% of the market.

17 hours ago, David said:

Why would I or anyone else that are just blocks away from our local Jackson Shell Mart drive 2.8 miles to a Tesla Charging station if there are chargers at the Jackson Shell Station?

Because the Tesla ones will work. 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Because the Tesla ones will work. 

Will take pictures next time I am over there as it is by my son's house, but not only is there always a long line for use by Tesla folks due to the huge amount of apartments there, but they have out of order signs on some of the chargers. Tesla is not perfect, but it is amazing how folks think Tesla is to the auto world like Apple to tech.

No company is perfect and as such, we are in such early stages of this EV transition that having chargers out of order by everyone is to be expected and I do not see here that the other companies are having any large issues with charging. Clearly this is a regional issue as I have stated due to the support of EVs compared to other areas.

21 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Correct me if I am wrong 

That's basically a full-time job around here.

21 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is using solar to generate electricity and will install mega pack batteries in the ground to store it so they aren’t going to be paying for electricity.  They can undercut Shell or anyone else on price per kWh.

Tesla solar at a supercharging station is window dressing and a bit of advertising their solar panels, nothing more.  Solar in that square footage cannot generate sufficient electricity to fully charge those megapack batteries. 

Solar on a house covers the house's usage plus a little left over for the grid. A single Model-3 charging at 250kW at a super charger is pulling the equivalent of 166 standard microwave ovens.

My guess is that while Tesla is using solar to top of the batteries in the ground, they will primarily be using the batteries for energy arbitrage, charging when the price is low and selling when the price is high, off of grid power.  Shell (and others) already do that, but without the battery part.  When they're the generation company, they can beat Tesla on the grid price and the amount of gain Tesla gets by using solar will be offset by the cost to install and maintain the batteries and panels.

In short, I bet the cost per kWh is a wash between the two companies.

16 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 If Tesla wins on price, which they are right now, they are going to clobber everyone.

I don't have a lot of knowledge on this, but looking at both the ChargePoint and Tesla apps, it looks like in our area it's 35c - 50c to DC fast charge on both networks.  The price varies by day and time of day.   There's also the possibility that Tesla will charge a higher rate to non-Tesla cars using SuperChargers.  ChargePoint and other networks also have monthly plans that lower the charge rate if you're going to be using public chargers a lot.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Because the Tesla ones will work. 

This will be the key factor.  The other charger networks, EA specifically, were the ones that shot themselves in the foot on this.

1 hour ago, David said:

have out of order signs on some of the chargers. Tesla is not perfect, but it is amazing how folks think Tesla is to the auto world like Apple to tech.

This is also true.  The benefit of Tesla is that they will typically put in 8 - 14 chargers while EA or ChargePoint will put in 2 - 4.  If one Tesla charger goes down it's a 7% to 12.5% outage rate. If one Chargepoint charger goes down, it's a 25% - 50% outage rate.

1 hour ago, David said:

No company is perfect and as such, we are in such early stages of this EV transition that having chargers out of order by everyone is to be expected and I do not see here that the other companies are having any large issues with charging. Clearly this is a regional issue as I have stated due to the support of EVs compared to other areas.

If it's a regional issue, why does your region have an issue? You said it was the South and Midwest that have issues but you're saying your own west coast is having issues as well.

I'm confused. Does the whole US have issues or just the Midwest and South, like you said before? 

1 hour ago, David said:

Tesla is not perfect, but it is amazing how folks think Tesla is to the auto world like Apple to tech.

Oh I absolutely know Tesla is not perfect. They're far from perfect. But their charging infrastructure is so much better than anything built with CCS chargers that Ford and GM have made the switch to their infrastructure. 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

This will be the key factor.  The other charger networks, EA specifically, were the ones that shot themselves in the foot on this.

This ought to get them to make a reliable infrastructure after getting sh!t on by the three largest EV companies in the US. 

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

If it's a regional issue, why does your region have an issue? You said it was the South and Midwest that have issues but you're saying your own west coast is having issues as well.

Different issues in different regions.  In @David's region, the EV chargers suffer from the volume of use. There's just more vehicle volume at them.  In the mid-west, the charger stations are fewer and further between due to lack of adoption.  The stations get vandalized more often and there is less of a support network to bring them back online.

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

This ought to get them to make a reliable infrastructure after getting sh!t on by the three largest EV companies in the US.

Except for EA, I expect there to be several rounds of consolidation as David suggested. Shell is actively buying up charging networks and I would be surprised if other traditional energy companies don't start doing the same. 

BP already has their BP Pulse network in the UK and announced in Feb is investing $1B in building the Pulse network in the US in partnership with Hertz.  They also own a company that builds the DC Fast Chargers and an Israeli battery company.

Chevron has a partnership with EVgo to install chargers at its gas stations, I wouldn't be surprised to see Chevron just buy EVgo outright eventually.

Only Exxon is taking the Toyota "EV's aren't real" approach even though their CEO predicts that all new cars will be EVs by 2040. Rather than being the supplier of energy for transportation, Exxon seems to be taking the path of being the leader in specialized lubricants for EVs that are different than traditional automotive lubricants. If and when Exxon's CEO changes, that policy could change too.

20 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Except for EA, I expect there to be several rounds of consolidation as David suggested. Shell is actively buying up charging networks and I would be surprised if other traditional energy companies don't start doing the same. 

BP already has their BP Pulse network in the UK and announced in Feb is investing $1B in building the Pulse network in the US in partnership with Hertz.  They also own a company that builds the DC Fast Chargers and an Israeli battery company.

Chevron has a partnership with EVgo to install chargers at its gas stations, I wouldn't be surprised to see Chevron just buy EVgo outright eventually.

Only Exxon is taking the Toyota "EV's aren't real" approach even though their CEO predicts that all new cars will be EVs by 2040. Rather than being the supplier of energy for transportation, Exxon seems to be taking the path of being the leader in specialized lubricants for EVs that are different than traditional automotive lubricants. If and when Exxon's CEO changes, that policy could change too.

I would be lying if I did not say that I have thought it might just be a good idea to buy shares in the publicly traded EV charging station companies as the consolidation should help drive the prices of these companies as they get bought up. I do not expect any of the existing charging companies even Electrify America to stay as they are today.

Good read on EA: Exploring the Publicly Traded Status of Electrify America - The Enlightened Mindset (lihpao.com)

EA has had further investment from VW who is the major shareholder of EA with Siemens being the second largest.

Yahoo Finance - Stock Market Live, Quotes, Business & Finance News

Current 5 largest Charging Networks in North America are as follows:

1. Electrify America
2. Tesla Superchargers
3. EVgo
4. ChargePoint
5. Blink

Fully expect all but the first two to change hands in the future.

Interesting is that EA has signed a long term deal with BMW to give first 2 years of BMW EV ownership access to charging stations at EA places that is free charging.

EA has released their latest report and it is interesting to notice that they are installing EV charging stations at Truck stations and ports to support EV Class 8 truck use.

Microsoft Word - Q1 2023 Electrify America Report to CARB (Public) final

EA in the report has increased construction to ramp up faster than the last few years. As such much of this is expected to come online over the next 18 months.

EA is a weird situation because they exists due to a court order.  Until that court order expires, I expect them to remain independent.

SK of Korea has also jumped on the NACS band wagon for ensuring their chargers have NACS plugs.

SK Signet Adds NACS Capabilities to its EV Charger Line-up | SK

Seems SAE is moving forward to make the NACS the new standard for charging.

SAE International Announces Standard for NACS Connector, Charging PKI and Infrastructure Reliability

VOLVO is also the latest to join the NACS club, Starting with all EVs built for the North America market in 2025 will come with the NACS port.

Electric Volvo car drivers will get access to 12,000 Tesla Superchargers across the United States, Canada and Mexico as Volvo Cars adopts North American Charging Standard - Volvo Car USA Newsroom

Nissan is the first Asian auto company that has joined the NACS group for charging ports and Tesla Supercharger network.

All 2024 models will get a CCS to NACS adapter, starting in 2025 all Nissan EVs will come standard with NACS ports.

Nissan to adopt North American Charging Standard (NACS) for Ariya and future EV models (nissannews.com)