Electrics Soar In EU while Diesel Fades

Good...this needs to happen.

Proving that there is a market for EVs even if some folks want to close their eyes to the obvious. 

Wow, you even made your signature an ode to ME.  How sweet!  Now I know just how important I am to you, even when you're not here.

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Wow, you even made your signature an ode to ME.  How sweet!  Now I know just how important I am to you, even when you're not here.

When you make future remarks about others trolling, I want you to look back on posts like this as to why it is hypocritical. Oh and you’re not the only person on this planet I have talked to about EVs and who has a problem with them. It a blanket statement about those who refuse to see progress. Not everything is about you. 

Now do you have anything non-trolling to add here or is that all?

Other than the natural progression of EVs in the marketplace, it seems that the negative PR that comes with diesel these days is probably playing a big part in the increase in sales there. 

8 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

others trolling

You could have posted something positive about EVs since you are one of those people, instead you try to incite others with your comment and your signature.

The EU is a fractured entity, insignificant and losing steam, overrun by immigrants who will not assimilate.  Look at France.  Look at Britain, desperate to break away, desperate to return to sovereign status over its own people.  A failed experiment.

8 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

You could have posted something positive about EVs since you are one of those people, instead you try to incite others with your comment and your signature.

The EU is a fractured entity, insignificant and losing steam, overrun by immigrants who will not assimilate.  Look at France.  Look at Britain, desperate to break away, desperate to return to sovereign status over its own people.  A failed experiment.

You are owed nothing from me and both of my posts about EVs here were of the positive. If all you want to do is focus on my signature because you seemingly have the notion that it’s all about you, then that is our problem. The only one inciting here is you. I love your little “since you’re one of those people” jab like that is supposed to be an insult. Not taking your bait ocnblu so get over it and move on. 

Now, about the actual subject,

The politics (or how you perceive them) have nothing to do with the growing sales of EVs while sales of other cars have been sagging or flat. 

3.6% is nothing, a 'standard wiggle' that happens with a variety of regular factors. No commercial product sees uninterrupted, continual upward growth. But financial analysts will point to such with loud fingers, spewing 'significance' & proclaiming it is 'proof' of something.

Reading elsewhere on the subject- while EU EVs "nearly doubled" in February, EVs were still under 2% of the market there.

Also, making overall judgements on the 'EU market' of 27 countries is probably disingenuous, as the individual numbers are all over the scale, again; for various commonplace reasons. +36% to –15%. 

Already figure that diesel is the only car that is heading toward it’s deathbed. The days are numbered as is it’s usefulness...

ICE and EV are the future. One will alway need the other. You never want to have just one form to get around anyways...

If diesel trucks aren't, ever, going anywhere, it's hard to image in there's no room for diesel cars too.

Well it's good to know there are other clear thinkers out there.  A lot of times it feels like I'm the only clearheaded individual /EV skeptic, especially in here.  I have to be vocal to be heard.  I feel like an Australian Shepherd amid a flock of unruly sheep.

Here's the question.. @ocnblu... why do U have such a love for ICE's? Hate against EV? They both motivate. Is it the "enthusiast passion" argument? 

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Well it's good to know there are other clear thinkers out there.  A lot of times it feels like I'm the only clearheaded individual /EV skeptic, especially in here.  I have to be vocal to be heard.  I feel like an Australian Shepherd amid a flock of unruly sheep.

Me believes you think too highly of yourself. “Australian Shepherd”? More like a neurotic Jack Russell Terrier looking to nip at anyone’s ankles whenever positive news comes out regarding EVs. Nothing clear headed about it while others (speaking against EVs) do it with more tact and actual common sense. 

The pace may be questioned. The marketing may be questioned. Hell, all sorts of things can be questioned where EVs are concerned but it is coming and it will eventually be the new norm and not the outlier or exception. That is the way of the technological world where some diehard anti-EV folks will join the ranks of folks like the flat earth society while the rest of us move on. 

14 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

The politics (or how you perceive them) have nothing to do with the growing sales of EVs while sales of other cars have been sagging or flat.

That is not accurate.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/04/8-european-countries-their-ev-policies/

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

That is not accurate.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/04/8-european-countries-their-ev-policies/

Read what I actually said though (in response to ocnblu). I know that specific policies have affected it but his claim was more about their politics in general and even their immigration “issues”. Below is what I replied to but you are correct on the specific policies.

“The EU is a fractured entity, insignificant and losing steam, overrun by immigrants who will not assimilate.  Look at France.  Look at Britain, desperate to break away, desperate to return to sovereign status over its own people.  A failed experiment.“

15 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

 

.

5 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

.

Edited 4 hours ago by Drew Dowdell
No personal attacks.

Hmmm...

22 hours ago, balthazar said:

If diesel trucks aren't, ever, going anywhere, it's hard to image in there's no room for diesel cars too.

Well, maybe EV trucks then?

Trucks I am sure will hang around for a while,  sales are crashing on the cars. You get enough companies like Ford that will wipe out a whole line, and you never know!

15 hours ago, ykX said:

EVs are coming like it or not.  It will take some time until they are really common, but I see more and more electric vehicles on the road in US and Europe and more and more manufacturers starting to work on EVs extensively.  

As soon as more EV will be available on the market and as soon as prices will come down to a more affordable level the market will explode.  The new generation of young people that used to plug in and charge their smartphones, tablets and laptops will embrace it quickly and without hesitation.  They feel more familiar with charging their gadgets than dealing with smelly gas, oil and grease.  The new generation is more eco conscious as well which makes electrics more attractive to them.  EVs require less maintenance as well which a lot of people will love.

Adding one thing to that......I think you’ll see more “public” EVs (like buses) as the younger generation does not like to drive....

On 4/29/2019 at 7:53 PM, ocnblu said:

 

The EU is a fractured entity, insignificant and losing steam, overrun by immigrants who will not assimilate.  Look at France.  Look at Britain, desperate to break away, desperate to return to sovereign status over its own people.  A failed experiment.

I thought we were not supposed to talk about politics in here...

Dont you make it a point every single time to tell us about the forum rules about politics when politics are brought up?

What does immigration in the UK and France have to do with soaring (or not) of EV sales in Europe?

And since we are on this topic...

Failed experiment you say?

So that above...has failed?

Because I thought, what that poem above represents, is one of many reasons why America is great...and why America got to be great in the first place...

And let us not forget, that if we are not First Nation natives, we are all immigrants to this continent...

I would agree with your sentiment about experiment failing if you and I were this guy...

Because nobody asked that guy if we were actually welcomed here...

We actually forced ourselves unto this place...

The irony of your statement though...

 un-assimilated European "settlers"  through the point of view of the...Redskins...the Injuns, the savages...right?

Well, at least the French settlers at first, made peace and trade with the peoples here....so there is that...

PS:  EU is failing for other reasons...not for "un-assimilated" immigrants...

PSS:

The un-assimilated immigrants of French and British immigration has more to do with their own past colonial ways...and how karma has bitten them in the ass for that... and yup...oh the irony...

Immigration issues are not political, they are human.  I did not break my own rule, which is to adhere to rules posted here but not obeyed.  Although I did mention Bernie Sanders recently.  But that was a goose/gander situation and it happens only once in a blue moon.

3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Immigration issues are not political, they are human.  I did not break my own rule, which is to adhere to rules posted here but not obeyed.  Although I did mention Bernie Sanders recently.  But that was a goose/gander situation and it happens only once in a blue moon.

(DISCLAIMER: There is a lot to process here. I hope you take the time to read it instead of mocking it...)

Immigration is certainly a political issue...

Especially the way you shoehorned it in the conversation...

And...like I said...Europe's problems, Brexit, are not only social, which in turn is political, but economical and especially about power....which is in fact...political...

politics: derived from an ancient  GREEK word politika which means "affairs of the cities".   Polis is city in GREEK.

Politikos in ancient and in modern Greek means of or relating to citizens which in turn there is another GREEK word politis which is citizen.

Politics in English refers to the governance of an area.  And "governance" includes all kinds of stuff and ideas. And those stuff and ideas are governed by and to the people of that area. Much like that original Greek word and idea where the English word and idea comes from.

Now...I understand CheersandGears rules and regulations...but in reality POLITICS are EVERYWHERE.

In fact...discussing ChearsandGears rules and regulations are indeed POLITICS...

We are a community. We are citizens of the domain CheersandGears and we have guidelines in place to govern our behaviours and how we are to interact with each other. We have rules and regulations and rights on how to post and where to post and what to post.

We also have a leader leading us...

So...THAT is why I get all antsy when some of us get all whiny about politics. Because politics are indeed everywhere. But wanted to make it clear to you immigration is indeed politics.

Education, is indeed politics. RELIGION is indeed politcs.  Automobile manufacturing sometimes falls into the category of politics.  Even in a micro point of view ONLY consisting a small area not necessarily involving vast territories.

Example:  GM and Ford blocking Tesla to sell automobiles in Michigan without a proper dealership network. 

Firstly though, I wanted to make it clear that UK and French immigration have LITTLE to do with their Eurocentric problems. 

UK and French immigration is from their own dibble and dabble into their very own colonial and political ways of the past that have come back to haunt them a couple of centuries later. 

England and France wanted to settle and colonize the world. 

They conquered old and new places and instead of the English and the French to ASSIMILATE to their NEWLY CONQUERED territories, they wanted to CONVERT the CONQUERED into THEIR OWN WAYS.

THAT opened up the door for the conquered to get "cultured" and then IMMIGRATE to their MASTER's homeland for better economic opportunities a couple of centuries later because English and French (especially English) colonialism sucked their conquered territories dry of all the riches of those territories...  HOW IRONIC...

Proof of that bolded statement I made? 

No taxation without representation comes to mind...

Politics is somewhat necessary when discussion of the rules and regulations of vehicles comes into play, or tariffs, or taxation.

I leave a long leash for discussion of the subject because I have the somewhat idealist hope that we can all behave like adults in here, though I am repeatedly proven wrong. 

So yes, we do allow some discussion of politics in so much as it pertains to cars.  Some people here push the limited of that by injecting unneeded political commentary into posts that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

THANK YOU @Drew Dowdell

You are right Politics and even religion have a proper place when in the proper context of our Auto discussions.

Electrics does seem to becoming the new bible standard of use in Europe and the mental adoption based on marketing and incentives to change seem to be getting people off the fence or out of the old toxic diesel and into the new cleaner age of EV's.

Yes I understand that places that are 100% on coal produced electric are no cleaner than diesel, much like West Virgina which is still 100% coal produced electric power, yet for those places that use Hydro, wind and solar, even natural gas, so much greener, cleaner and the air smells much better.

I think sadly the US is going to lose more of their edge to Europe and the Asian rim as they move forward government driven for a quieter cleaner driving experience.

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Some people here push the limited of that by injecting unneeded political commentary into posts that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

You really want to call me out on THAT when dfelt freely injects his OPINION inappropriately of our president every chance he gets instead of sticking with facts?  You need to be neutral otherwise you are ineffective.

21 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

You really want to call me out on THAT when dfelt freely injects his OPINION inappropriately of our president every chance he gets instead of sticking with facts?  You need to be neutral otherwise you are ineffective.

Righttttttttttt ?

Our incompetent leadership from the White house to the senate and house that has pretty much destroyed any leadership this country had left in the world with ignorant trade policies that have hurt more than helped the average American in the last 3 years. You can hate either party in the US, but the last time we actually had solid good reaching across the isle to build a budget of living within the means and paying down debt was the 90's.

Right, I think the buck board in your buggy needs a new nail.

While not everyone will agree with political push in one direction or another, the end fact is that government drive of technology is what has given us some amazing better ways to drive, fly, and live in this planet that needs to be saved from toxic old ways of doing things.

EDUCATION IS THE GREAT EQUALIZER!!!

 Without pushing for the 22nd century and embracing change that looks for the good of the whole rather than the selfishness of the individual humanity flourishes.

Global Trade will always have drawback as nothing will ever be perfect as humans are not perfect, yet we can learn to live together in this Multi-Cultural society that can give us so much more by reaching across with best intent and listening and speaking one's mind to find a way to agree to disagree while building better products, better quality of life and enjoying the differences that can give us all a cleaner, healthier planet to live on.

39 minutes ago, dfelt said:

….the end fact is that government drive of technology is what has given us some amazing better ways to drive, fly, and live in this planet that needs to be saved from toxic old ways of doing things.

A friend just got off a flight in a new-tech electric jumbo jet. He could not stop raving how quiet and non-smelly the flight was!

- - - - - 
Saw this on another board (didn't check the math) :
"Assume your electric vehicle has a 275 mile range and requires 6 hours to fully charge.  At an average driving speed of 60 mph, it would take about 15 hours to make a 550 mile trip.  550 miles in 15 hours is an average speed of 36 mph.  That's Model T performance."

The assumption of 6 hours to charge is wrong unless you're plugging into a wall outlet. Fast charging adds 90 miles of range in 30 minutes or less. Supercharger is faster.

I am about to say flawed logic to that as well...

But before I do say it, I wanna know how many gasoline stations were around in the 1900s, then the 1910s, then the 1920s. (because obviously gasoline powered vehicles, especially affordable ones like the Model T, just exploded unto the scene by the 1920s...)

Then, Id like to know how far apart were those gasoline stations.  Again, each decade had growth.  And that poster just mentions Model T territory, but obviously a 1908 Model T was different enough from a 1927 Model T and more to it than that, the automotive landscape had significantly changed from 1908 to 1927...his argument does not mention what decade of Model T.  Because I bet you, especially in the early days, the gasoline stations were farther apart than the EV infrastructure is toady.  But at what point in time did the early gasoline stations equal the EV infrastructure we have today in 2019 and at what point in time did it surpass it? 

Then Id like to know, how big of a gasoline tank the first Model Ts had, and then Id like to know how big of a gasoline tank the last gen Model T had.

Then...Id like for us to make a REAL and honest calculation of what a Model T performance is like...according to its respective decade. Because it WAS different in the 1900s, in 1910, in 1920... 

Also..in the early days of motoring...there werent even real roads. The Model T was a true blue off roader. 

To which I also wanna know, those early Model T pioneers, or other gasoline powered vehicle owners, how far did they really need to drive? Because we all know, in the beginning of the automotive industry,  there were no Clark Griswold, Chicago to Wolly World family truckster vacations...Route 66 came after WW2 I think...

We could all summarize and come to a conclusion that fits our biased agendas...that doesnt mean our conclusions or our opinions are correct.

https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/what-the-history-of-gas-stations-means-for-electric-cars

from that link above:

Quote

 

On my way to a conference in Ann Arbor, Michigan, last week, I took a little detour to Dearborn, to visit the Henry Ford Museum of Innovation.  I wanted to see what a Model T’s gas tank looked like.

The importance of the Model T, which the Ford Motor Co. began selling in 1908, is  a familiar story: It was the first car that was both widely affordable and widely available, thanks to the mass manufacturing techniques Henry Ford developed and the economies of scale they made possible.

But there is another, less well-known aspect of the Model T’s history: the role it played in the development of gas stations — and the role gas stations played in the rise of the automobile. With all the ferment surrounding the evolution of electric vehicles, it occurred to me that it might be instructive to look at the interplay between gas stations and cars a century ago.

It turns out that the Model T’s gas tank was under the front seat cushion; to refill it, you had to raise the cushion and pour the gasoline into a hole on the top of the tank. Before you could even get to that stage, though, you first had to go to a store — often the local general store — where you ladled the gasoline into a container of some sort and then, using a funnel, poured it from the container into the gas tank. It was messy, inefficient and ultimately untenable if autos were going to replace the horse and buggy.

By 1912, this system had largely given way to pumps set up on sidewalks by small entrepreneurs, who bought gas from a wholesaler. They used nozzles made to fit the opening of the Model T’s tank, which created an ad hoc standardization, ensuring that all nozzles and all gas tanks were interoperable.

 

 I also wanna know if that poster knew you had to play around to fill up the gas tank that way...did he calculate the time wasted fiddling around with bottles and funnels and mopping any spillages?  Did he calculate the time needed for all the little nuances that the early cars required to get going?  I bet not...

So...the 36MPH for a certain vintage Model T may in fact be lower than that...

Here I am and Im watching playoff hockey.

I came to a realization.

In sports, fans like to compare how today's sports greats measure up to past sports greats and vice versa.

But we cant do that accurately.  Different eras. Past sports greats smoked, drank, ate like pigs.Had other jobs. Did not train, exercise etc...

Today's sports stars, well, they do the opposite of that.  Plus, they use technology that records and captures their motions and they play it back micro second to micro second and analyze their movements with a professional sports trainer and improve on their imperfections. 

Anyway...back to cars. Same logic though. 

Different times had different obstacles to overcome with different advances in technology. 

Its not fair for the Model T to be scrutinized by me the way I did.

But...its not fair for the EV to be scrutinized the way some do regarding charging times...

Technology is simply not there for that...yet. But...that is just 1 aspect of charging an EV.

For the umpteenth time. We forget that even with a 275 mile range in winter, so the range is even cut by 60-65%, an average Joe commuting with his EV, will never have to stop at a charging station just daily driving his EV back and forth to work if he has a home charging unit... 

Modern EVs, Telsa  EVs, SURPASS performance levels the way that guy made his argument, hands down with the daily driving aspect as a Tesla EV, or Bolt, has enough range to never have to charge on public roads...never has to detour and stop to "fill up".  No time wasted...like at all...

Some people just harp on charging times needlessly because it shant be a problem...

But...just like the early Ford Model T adapters, cranking the engine by hand to start, fiddling around with bottles and funnels, taking out water from the radiator in the night because of freezing cold weather in the winter and adding water back into it in the morning, and then monitoring the water levels constantly,  checking the water in the battery...

You know, those early car adapters, well, they coped...

Same with the EV guys. They cope with the different set of obstacles they have to face...

If you are not capable, or willing to cope with the EV obstacles...its simple, dont buy an EV. But for many, especially in other parts of the world not named United States of America, they cope with it quite well...

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

...obviously a 1908 Model T was different enough from a 1927 Model T...

I'm estimating, but 90% the exact same car.
- - - - -
I'm all in for coping/ handling it/ gittin' 'er dun… but that's not the way of the world anymore.
We have remote-controlled BLINDS, for shit's sake.

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

I'm estimating, but 90% the exact same car.
- - - - -
I'm all in for coping/ handling it/ gittin' 'er dun… but that's not the way of the world anymore.
We have remote-controlled BLINDS, for $h!'s sake.

Yes. And we have Google Home and Amazon "whatever its called" that controls literally everything you want it to control in your home.

But when there is a power failure...kiss all that good-bye and we have to cope with day to day living the old fashioned way....

And some of us are so far up Google's and Amazon's ass that we dont know how to 'git er dun' anymore. 

Point being, technology will always have limits no matter how far advanced technology has become and we will always advance and evolve our ways and adapt quite easily to these new advancements but when something incredibly new arrives, and there will be set-backs and/or minor deficiencies, we will have to cope with those deficiencies one way or other until we iron out those kinks. 

And the innovation cycle will continue to repeat itself that way. 

Yup, a power failure in a home-charged electric car world... nobody can get to work... how lovely.  BLOCK PARTY!

Happened once.  How many power outages have happened?

Happened twice.

Plus...

But you still dont get it!

Stop the motherphoquing childish trolling...

I could still get to work. I don't drive 250 miles one way. I could go a week with no power at the house and still get to work

That's really nice.  My route is 24-25 miles each way.  So... assuming I have 100% charge coincidentally at the moment the power outage starts, I suppose I could go 5 days, strictly driving only back and forth to and from work, with zero side trips for groceries that don't need refrigeration, or cooking, in perfect weather that does not require heating or cooling the car, and not using any accessories like a radio... seems totally doable.  Wow, I just talked myself into it.  Seems so easy all of a sudden.

olds, I will take my chances we will not have another gas crisis v. the mathematical possibility of a power outage... which to me would go up if everybody's drawing power for a car.  PLUS... no tanks needed for domestic oil production.

A 5 day power outage is common for you?   Even still, just go somewhere that has a charger and power up for 30 minutes. It's not like you'll have anything to do at home with the power out. It's these strawman arguments that make you look especially ridiculous in your opposition to EVs. We get it.  Don't buy one. Let the people who do want one alone.

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

A 5 day power outage is common for you?

Well no, but that was your example I was using.  Finding a working charger depends on how widespread the outage is.  I am leaving the people alone, it is the cars themselves I pick on.  I hope everyone sees that distinction.

33 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Well no, but that was your example I was using.  Finding a working charger depends on how widespread the outage is.  I am leaving the people alone, it is the cars themselves I pick on.  I hope everyone sees that distinction.

No.

The conversation was a cool, informative, civil, factual to a degree, discourse. Nothing childish about it.

Debunking illogical or even proving certain aspects of that discussion was the direction.

Balthy informed me that 90% of the Model T from 1908 and 1927 remained the same.

Then you come along and spew childish remarks...and then I become the bad guy again...derailing the thread and making my remarks borderline personal....

I do NOT enjoy being this way.

I do NOT enjoy posting this way and I certainly do NOT enjoy interacting with you guys this way.

These kinds of discussions, the way you and I approach it,  are high school level intelligence.

YOUR arguments are high school level.

Please stop!

NOW how does everyone feel?

3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

That's really nice.  My route is 24-25 miles each way.  So... assuming I have 100% charge coincidentally at the moment the power outage starts, I suppose I could go 5 days, strictly driving only back and forth to and from work, with zero side trips for groceries that don't need refrigeration, or cooking, in perfect weather that does not require heating or cooling the car, and not using any accessories like a radio... seems totally doable.  Wow, I just talked myself into it.  Seems so easy all of a sudden.

olds, I will take my chances we will not have another gas crisis v. the mathematical possibility of a power outage... which to me would go up if everybody's drawing power for a car.  PLUS... no tanks needed for domestic oil production.

So how will you get that gas with no power? ?

No ability to pump it from the ground tank to the dispenser and then into your auto.

No Power, no ability for the refinery to process the oil into gas and then transport it to the wholesaler and then to the retailer and then into your auto.

No power, then no ability to drill the well to pump the oil into the holding tanks, then into the rail car, to the refiner to the transport, to the wholesaler, to the retailer to your auto.

With power, be it solar, wind, hydro, natural gas, coal, nuclear, power generated, transmitted over the lines and dispersed via various charging stations or even in your own home means: ALWAYS FULLY CHARGED in the Morning, Fully charged during the power outage times due to weather storms, Means not going out in a storm when you are near empty to make sure you have a tank of gas in the morning to attempt to get to work.

EV or ICEV???? ???

I will grant you both have exciting reasons and draw backs, yet like the early 1900's we are at the beginning of a new exciting era.

Enjoy your ICEV Blu, I will enjoy mine too till the EVs are in production that will fit me and I can retire my ICEV for an EV.

57 minutes ago, balthazar said:

NOW how does everyone feel?

Thank you for the tension breaker. It is spring and lovely today. Off to do yard work.

15 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The assumption of 6 hours to charge is wrong unless you're plugging into a wall outlet. Fast charging adds 90 miles of range in 30 minutes or less. Supercharger is faster.

Let's not forget that with XFS starting to be installed and Toshiba solid state batteries to go into Nissan and Mitsubishi auto's that are planned to go on sale in 2020 as a 2021 model we will have two options. 198 miles battery pack with a 6 min recharge time or the 396 mile battery pack that recharges in 12 min via an XFS charger. XFS is what Shell has implied they will install at their gas stations for paid use by the public.