Performance Cars Dead? Not According to Hyundai's N Brand EVs

6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The EV weight is BELOW the axles MASKING the heft quite nicely... 

You can mask it, but it’s still there. 

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You can mask it, but it’s still there. 

yes.

and nobody, me, is not saying otherwise. hence the word choice of masking the heft.

But weight,

*sigh*

for the umpteenth time

*sigh*

is but 1 factor regarding handling.

*sigh*

The skateboard platform allows for all the heft be BELOW THE AXLES MAKING A VERY VERY LOW CENTER OF GRAVITY FAVOURING HANDLING AND TRACKING. 

plus

the weight is so evenly distributed along the length and side of the vehicle all that is left to do is just an easy calibration of the suspension not having to factor for up front engine heft in a front engined car.  even in a rear mid-engine car, the weight is still ABOVE the wheels instead of below.   Traction is compensated by having the electric motors directly engaged to the driving wheels be it 3 or even 4. Software programming even allows for torque vectoring on ALL 4 wheels if all 4 wheels are able to be torquing.....

Heft is just a factor in a myriad of factors in a tracking formula...

yes, heft is a detriment to performance. NOBODY is denying that. Its just that a skateboard platform EV isnt really phased by that.

An ICE track car has many more deficiencies that an EV has as an advantage... 

yes yes yes

heft aint onee of them

But HIGHER center of gravity and heft to where it aint optimal for an engine to be are what favours the EV...

*phoque me its such a difficult concept to understand???*

suspension symmetry or asymmetry, dampening rates, the kind of dampers to begin with, suspension travel. How low the car is to the ground, overall weight, weight distribution, center of gravity, how well the motor or engine transfers the power and torque to the wheels, wheel cambers,  all just some of the factors that are involved in tracking...

Some of those factors are equal and same solutions to both EVs and ICEs and some of those are advantageous or disadvantageous to each differently and separately but could use any and either factor in that track equation to compensate for the disadvantage. 

At the end of the day, a Model S Plaid, as a heavy Hellcat Charger do an excellent job at handling street legal speed cornering and do inspire confidence in accident avoidance maneuvers.

However, they do the job somewhat on a track, but they aint the right tool to conquer the track races as both vehicles were NOT ENGINEERED TO DO ANY TRACK WORK. THEY BOTH LACK THE NEEDED HARDWARE, THE PROPER TRACK SUSPENSIONS...

And quite frankly, the heft  issue on both the Plaid and Hellcat could be overcome without even eliminating the heft part just by utilizing the necessary hardware. 

Of course knocking off 500-600 lbs on either would benefit them for plenty of things, not just tracking.  Im not denying that. Its just that heft is NOT the deterrent its spoke of by SMK aka Alex with a skateboard platform EV...

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You’re comparing cheap sports cars, which do 0-60 in 6 seconds and saying there needs to be a light sporty electric car. 
 

The ones I mentioned earlier were the original Model 3 when it could be had with a much smaller battery and was supposed to cost at or around 40k. That car doesn’t exist anymore. 
 

How about cutting 12-16" off the vehicle and make it a two-door sports car? That doesn’t sound unreasonable to think that would cut 3-400lbs. If it were a two-seater, that would certainly get the 400lb out. 

I guess my point is the cheap sports car segment will die with the EV switch.  I suppose if you shrunk the Model 3 ( which is already smaller than a Mustang) down to Supra size and removed the rear seat then you could shed some weight and get under 3500 lbs.  

I don’t really care if the affordable sports car segment dies, I’d prefer a sensory deprivation air matic Mercedes over a Mustang or Supra that’s more raw and connected to the road. 

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I guess my point is the cheap sports car segment will die with the EV switch.  I suppose if you shrunk the Model 3 ( which is already smaller than a Mustang) down to Supra size and removed the rear seat then you could shed some weight and get under 3500 lbs.  

I don’t really care if the affordable sports car segment dies, I’d prefer a sensory deprivation air matic Mercedes over a Mustang or Supra that’s more raw and connected to the road. 

You don’t really care yet spent two pages trying to convince everyone here that you, in fact, did. 
 

mmmkay. 

On 8/6/2022 at 6:01 PM, oldshurst442 said:

NOT ENGINEERED TO DO ANY TRACK WORK. THEY BOTH LACK THE NEEDED HARDWARE, THE PROPER TRACK SUSPENSIONS...

Maybe the Plaid or Hellcats shouldn't have "Track Modes" if they're supposedly not engineered for track work. 

We can also just take a look at their respective websites to see if they think they're not built for racetracks... 

Straight off Dodge's website:

Straight off Tesla's website:

This week, Plaid Track Mode is rolling out to Model S Plaid vehicles across North America. With Plaid Track Mode our goals were simple: achieve the quickest lap time for a production electric vehicle at Germany’s Nürburgring, and allow individual adjustability of stability control, handling balance and regenerative braking to give drivers more authority over vehicle control at the racetrack.

Plaid Track Mode was developed to take full advantage of our tri-motor platform and more than 1,000 horsepower on tap, with features including:

• Optimized Powertrain Cooling
  Track driving generates an enormous amount of heat in the battery, motors, and brakes. Maximum track endurance is achieved by managing this heat to keep these components as cool as possible.

• When Plaid Track Mode is engaged, we drop the temperature of the battery pack and motors to create a significant amount of chilled thermal mass. Once track driving begins and heat is generated, shared coolant loops between the battery and motors keep the entire system cooler for longer.

• We also increase regenerative braking power, which has three major benefits: re-capture more energy during deceleration, reduce load on the friction brakes for better thermal management, and give the driver better modulation and controllability with a single pedal.

• Lateral Torque Vectoring
  Using the same foundation as Model 3 Track Mode, Plaid Track Mode relies heavily on front and rear motors to command rotation: additional torque applied to the rear axle helps turn the nose of the car into a corner; torque applied to the front axle arrests rotation to pull the car straight.

• Building on this principle, Model S Plaid’s dual rear motors enable full lateral torque vectoring. With Track Mode activated, Plaid automatically adjusts torque split across the rear wheels, independently, which applies a torque bias to rotate the car through turns; this increases turn-in response, improves on-center steering feel, and delivers even greater yaw control throughout a corner.

• Compared to traditional open- and limited-slip differentials, which must always compete between turn-in response and maximum traction, our electric motors adjust in milliseconds to give the driver both strengths simultaneously, allowing for faster turn-in, increased cornering speeds, and harder acceleration on corner exit.

• Adjustable Vehicle Dynamics
  During normal road driving, our stability control systems are optimized to limit tire slippage and maximize grip to keep the driver safe.

• In Plaid Track Mode, stability controls enter a race tuning to give the driver maximum control over the car’s lateral movement. With Plaid Track Mode engaged, Tesla’s Vehicle Dynamics Controller (VDC) evaluates steering angle, accelerator, and brake pedal inputs to determine where the driver wants to place the car and will permit tire slippage and automatically adjust torque split to give the driver even more authority and improved agility during high-speed cornering.

• For drivers who want additional adjustability over vehicle dynamics, handling balance, stability assist and regenerative braking can be changed independently based on their skill level and preferences.

• Adaptive Suspension Damping
  When Plaid Track Mode is engaged, adaptive suspension damping is optimized for track handling: reduced pitch during hard braking and fast acceleration, rebalanced damping to improve responsiveness, and faster settling of vehicle disturbances over bumpy segments to increase driver confidence. To facilitate consistent dynamic driving, ride height is set to Low on drive-off, and the suspension will no longer automatically raise to improve comfort.

• Performance UI
  We have added a track-focused user interface to provide critical performance data, including a vehicle thermals monitor, lap timer, G-meter, dashcam video capture and vehicle telemetry, along with several other customizable options.

With Plaid Track Mode, we have added a host of new features to make Model S Plaid as quick around a racetrack as it is at the drag strip. Our approach focuses on allowing greater driver control and adjustability while promoting driver confidence, and like most aspects of Tesla vehicles, we’ll continue to improve Plaid Track Mode over time with future over-the-air updates.

On 8/6/2022 at 7:22 PM, smk4565 said:

I guess my point is the cheap sports car segment will die with the EV switch.  I suppose if you shrunk the Model 3 ( which is already smaller than a Mustang) down to Supra size and removed the rear seat then you could shed some weight and get under 3500 lbs.  

I don’t really care if the affordable sports car segment dies, I’d prefer a sensory deprivation air matic Mercedes over a Mustang or Supra that’s more raw and connected to the road. 

I don't think it will go completely away but I think it'll be awhile before there's a cheap sports car EV. There just isn't a business case for a 30k sports car that's an EV yet. 

On 8/8/2022 at 9:55 AM, ccap41 said:

Maybe the Plaid or Hellcats shouldn't have "Track Modes" if they're supposedly not engineered for track work. 

We can also just take a look at their respective websites to see if they think they're not built for racetracks... 

Straight off Dodge's website:

 

Straight off Tesla's website:

This week, Plaid Track Mode is rolling out to Model S Plaid vehicles across North America. With Plaid Track Mode our goals were simple: achieve the quickest lap time for a production electric vehicle at Germany’s Nürburgring, and allow individual adjustability of stability control, handling balance and regenerative braking to give drivers more authority over vehicle control at the racetrack.

Plaid Track Mode was developed to take full advantage of our tri-motor platform and more than 1,000 horsepower on tap, with features including:

 

• Optimized Powertrain Cooling
  Track driving generates an enormous amount of heat in the battery, motors, and brakes. Maximum track endurance is achieved by managing this heat to keep these components as cool as possible.

• When Plaid Track Mode is engaged, we drop the temperature of the battery pack and motors to create a significant amount of chilled thermal mass. Once track driving begins and heat is generated, shared coolant loops between the battery and motors keep the entire system cooler for longer.

• We also increase regenerative braking power, which has three major benefits: re-capture more energy during deceleration, reduce load on the friction brakes for better thermal management, and give the driver better modulation and controllability with a single pedal.

• Lateral Torque Vectoring
  Using the same foundation as Model 3 Track Mode, Plaid Track Mode relies heavily on front and rear motors to command rotation: additional torque applied to the rear axle helps turn the nose of the car into a corner; torque applied to the front axle arrests rotation to pull the car straight.

• Building on this principle, Model S Plaid’s dual rear motors enable full lateral torque vectoring. With Track Mode activated, Plaid automatically adjusts torque split across the rear wheels, independently, which applies a torque bias to rotate the car through turns; this increases turn-in response, improves on-center steering feel, and delivers even greater yaw control throughout a corner.

• Compared to traditional open- and limited-slip differentials, which must always compete between turn-in response and maximum traction, our electric motors adjust in milliseconds to give the driver both strengths simultaneously, allowing for faster turn-in, increased cornering speeds, and harder acceleration on corner exit.

• Adjustable Vehicle Dynamics
  During normal road driving, our stability control systems are optimized to limit tire slippage and maximize grip to keep the driver safe.

• In Plaid Track Mode, stability controls enter a race tuning to give the driver maximum control over the car’s lateral movement. With Plaid Track Mode engaged, Tesla’s Vehicle Dynamics Controller (VDC) evaluates steering angle, accelerator, and brake pedal inputs to determine where the driver wants to place the car and will permit tire slippage and automatically adjust torque split to give the driver even more authority and improved agility during high-speed cornering.

• For drivers who want additional adjustability over vehicle dynamics, handling balance, stability assist and regenerative braking can be changed independently based on their skill level and preferences.

• Adaptive Suspension Damping
  When Plaid Track Mode is engaged, adaptive suspension damping is optimized for track handling: reduced pitch during hard braking and fast acceleration, rebalanced damping to improve responsiveness, and faster settling of vehicle disturbances over bumpy segments to increase driver confidence. To facilitate consistent dynamic driving, ride height is set to Low on drive-off, and the suspension will no longer automatically raise to improve comfort.

• Performance UI
  We have added a track-focused user interface to provide critical performance data, including a vehicle thermals monitor, lap timer, G-meter, dashcam video capture and vehicle telemetry, along with several other customizable options.

With Plaid Track Mode, we have added a host of new features to make Model S Plaid as quick around a racetrack as it is at the drag strip. Our approach focuses on allowing greater driver control and adjustability while promoting driver confidence, and like most aspects of Tesla vehicles, we’ll continue to improve Plaid Track Mode over time with future over-the-air updates.

I don't think it will go completely away but I think it'll be awhile before there's a cheap sports car EV. There just isn't a business case for a 30k sports car that's an EV yet. 

If Dodge really wanted the Challenger to go a-trackin', they would have made it to go a-trackin'

Three letters for you

A

C

R

American

Club

Racing 

You see CCAP, you cherry pick my words, but it dont matter....

Track mode means nothing...

There was once a rumour that the Challenger would be offered in ACR trim and undergo the same treatment as the Viper ACR.

But that never really happened now did it?

Its not as if  the Challenger Demon wasnt the specialized track car...  But for the quarter mile track..

No stupendous rear wing for downforce, no aerocanards up front, etc.....

Its not as if the Demon get crazy for it being a track car for the quarter mile

as if MOPAR didnt include in the pice tag skinny wheels up front and slicks in the back and delete all the seats except the driver's one and sell the owner the 3 others for a dollar each....

Meaning, if Dodge really wanted the Challenger to go trackin' they would have made one to replace the Viper ACR.

But they didnt...DID THEY?

https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/why-the-dodge-challenger-acr-didnt-happen/

weight is mentioned as why this never happened

which leads us back to the Model S.....

The battery weight is below the axles.

Low center of gravity.

Now have a great day tomorrow because I aint wasting my precious time with both of you (smk as well) bozos

My mic drop

7 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

You see CCAP, you cherry pick my words, but it dont matter....

Track mode means nothing...

There was once a rumour that the Challenger would be offered in ACR trim and undergo the same treatment as the Viper ACR.

But that never really happened now did it?

Its not as if  the Challenger Demon wasnt the specialized track car...  But for the quarter mile track..

No stupendous rear wing for downforce, no aerocanards up front, etc.....

 

Its not as if the Demon get crazy for it being a track car for the quarter mile

 

as if MOPAR didnt include in the pice tag skinny wheels up front and slicks in the back and delete all the seats except the driver's one and sell the owner the 3 others for a dollar each....

Meaning, if Dodge really wanted the Challenger to go trackin' they would have made one to replace the Viper ACR.

But they didnt...DID THEY?

https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/why-the-dodge-challenger-acr-didnt-happen/

weight is mentioned as why this never happened

which leads us back to the Model S.....

The battery weight is below the axles.

Low center of gravity.

Now have a great day tomorrow because I aint wasting my precious time with both of you (smk as well) bozos

My mic drop

 

Maybe your beef is with Dodge then, because they're the one advertising it as a track-ready car. The same can be said with Tesla and the Model S Plaid. 

The Battle is on for EV Performance as Porsche just reclaimed the EV track record for Nurburg. Beating the Plaid by 2 seconds.

Porsche Taycan Turbo S Tops Tesla Model S Plaid Nurburgring Record (msn.com)

Yes as @smk4565 they still do not beat a few exclusive ICE autos, but they are showing that EV will dominate the track and Mercedes, nor BMW or Audi are anywhere to be found in the EV performance world. Hopefully Cadillac will take their EV V series there to show it off like they did with the ICE series.

5 hours ago, David said:

The Battle is on for EV Performance as Porsche just reclaimed the EV track record for Nurburg. Beating the Plaid by 2 seconds.

Porsche Taycan Turbo S Tops Tesla Model S Plaid Nurburgring Record (msn.com)

Yes as @smk4565 they still do not beat a few exclusive ICE autos, but they are showing that EV will dominate the track and Mercedes, nor BMW or Audi are anywhere to be found in the EV performance world. Hopefully Cadillac will take their EV V series there to show it off like they did with the ICE series.

I saw the Taycan is back on top, still slower than their own Panamera Turbo S though.  Mercedes is coming, I think it is interesting that the AMG EQE here is called an AMG 53 in Europe and that's the 670 hp version.  So I wonder if there is a "63" coming or if they are just waiting til their 2nd gen battery comes in 2025ish because they have a performance EV architecture in the works and their F1 team has been doing work on the battery and motors.  And maybe the the EQE and EQS AMG's are just what they are now, and they'll add a coupe and sedan on the performance car architecture that will basically be the AMG GT 4-door replacement and it would make more sense to make a new sports car rather than try to turn a luxury barge like the EQS into one, even the EQE is as big as a Lucid Air or Taycan.

Hopefully Cadillac makes an EV that isn't an SUV, outside of the Celestiq.  American car companies outside of Tesla hate sedans.

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is coming

And there are those famous last words whenever they are not, in fact, there already as the "best or nothing".

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

And there are those famous last words whenever they are not, in fact, there already as the "best or nothing".

They already build the best luxury EV.  The AMG ICE cars (and the plug in hybrids) are better performing around a track than EV's, so maybe they want to hold off on the AMG only EV's until they can get where the gas ones are.  They need a more advanced battery and motor than what's available now, the axial flux motor won't be ready until 2025, likewise with the next-gen battery.

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

They already build the best luxury EV.  The AMG ICE cars (and the plug in hybrids) are better performing around a track than EV's, so maybe they want to hold off on the AMG only EV's until they can get where the gas ones are.  They need a more advanced battery and motor than what's available now, the axial flux motor won't be ready until 2025, likewise with the next-gen battery.

So, in other words, you're admitting that the Best or Nothing is true, they have NOTHING since they do not have the best.

Clearly since Tesla and others have better products, your backup is to say that ICE or Hybrid is better than any other EV out there. 

Seems Mercedes is truly behind since they have nothing to offer the average consumer, just the 1% crowd with that awful EQS styling mess.

4 hours ago, David said:

So, in other words, you're admitting that the Best or Nothing is true, they have NOTHING since they do not have the best.

Clearly since Tesla and others have better products, your backup is to say that ICE or Hybrid is better than any other EV out there. 

Seems Mercedes is truly behind since they have nothing to offer the average consumer, just the 1% crowd with that awful EQS styling mess.

They have the same lithium ion batteries and radial flux motors that Tesla and everyone uses.  When they get the silicon anode batteries and axial flux motors it is said they will get 20-40% more energy density and power over the current offerings.  

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

They have the same lithium ion batteries and radial flux motors that Tesla and everyone uses.  When they get the silicon anode batteries and axial flux motors it is said they will get 20-40% more energy density and power over the current offerings.  

They DO NOT have the same batteries and motors that Tesla has. Remember we have posted here the company in the UK, YASA that Mercedes bought to build them electric motors, they are not the same. END OF LINE!

Plenty of stories about this startup that does not have the history of Tesla power train.

Acquired by Mercedes-Benz, YASA’s revolutionary electric motor is set for big things | TechCrunch

Yes, Mercedes is going to build the axial flux motors that Yasa designs, an unproven new tech electric motor.

Press Release

20211118_PI_Transformation_Insight_Berlin_en.docx

This does not put it in the same league or is the same as what Tesla has.

Ford and GM DO NOT have the same batteries or electric motors as Tesla. They are all building what they think is the best battery packs and motors, but assumptions is all you have in the above statement, total vaporware at this point just like you called Chryslers Airflow Concept EV auto.

According to Reuters, seems Kia and Hyundai are going to produce EVs in the U.S. so they qualify for the U.S. rebates on auto sales. Read the original story on Reuters, but realized it is a paid for story that if you do not have any free reads left for the month, one could not read it, but insidesevs did a write up on it and the Korean news stories that also say Hyundai is looking to start production of EVs in the U.S. to get access to the rebates and challenge Tesla for the EV sales crown.

Production is to begin 2024 on all EVs.

Kia To Build EVs In The US From 2024, Per Reports (insideevs.com)