Performance Cars Dead? Not According to Hyundai's N Brand EVs

I LOVE that N Vision 74!! That's a potential Electric Camaro/Mustang killer!

The N Vision 74 is really cool, although they'd have to make it an EV, a fuel cell isn't going to sell since there is no hydrogen network.  Hopefully they build both of those.

Performance cars aren't dead, but all these EV performance cars are just 500-100 hp and fly in a straight line but weigh 5,000+ lbs so it isn't like they are going to handle like a Lotus in the corners.

The N Vision 74 is COOL AS HAIL! 

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Performance cars aren't dead, but all these EV performance cars are just 500-100 hp and fly in a straight line but weigh 5,000+ lbs so it isn't like they are going to handle like a Lotus in the corners.

Model 3 Performance is 4000-4100lbs and put down 0.95g laterally. No Lotus, but that's no joke. That's legitimate performance. 

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/tesla-model-3-vs-jaguar-i-pace-vs-alfa-romeo-giulia/

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The N Vision 74 is really cool, although they'd have to make it an EV, a fuel cell isn't going to sell since there is no hydrogen network.  Hopefully they build both of those.

Performance cars aren't dead, but all these EV performance cars are just 500-100 hp and fly in a straight line but weigh 5,000+ lbs so it isn't like they are going to handle like a Lotus in the corners.

Neither do M5s, AMG63s, and Hellcats... so I don't see your point.  Those probably handle in the same league as a Model S

I have to say that the N Vision 74 is the first Performance Car in a long time that I would love to drive if I could fit. ? 

23 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Neither do M5s, AMG63s, and Hellcats... so I don't see your point.  Those probably handle in the same league as a Model S

An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track.  But my point more is with sports cars, like a 911 or Corvette or something.  An EV Corvette or 911 with a 90 kWh battery would be like a 4500 lb car, I don't know if that is really keeping with the spirit of the sports car idea.   No one is making an EV sports car or convertible right now, because I think they can't get the weight out and a 3800 lb Miata EV with 200 hp at $50k probably isn't going to sell.  Stuff like Miata, Toyota 86, or even Supra or Nissan Z that maybe aren't all about straight line power and are about driving dynamics doesn't really exist in the EV world.  

Cadillac fans for a few years were saying how light weight the ATS and CTS were, the Lyric is 5600-5900 lbs.  

35 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Neither do M5s, AMG63s, and Hellcats... so I don't see your point.  Those probably handle in the same league as a Model S

Exactly. 

AMG GT's (non-Black Series) weigh 3600-3700lb, C63's weigh nearly 4000lb, M3/M4's are pretty light, in comparison but AMGs aren't all that concerned about weight, unless it's a Black Series. 

43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track.  But my point more is with sports cars, like a 911 or Corvette or something.  An EV Corvette or 911 with a 90 kWh battery would be like a 4500 lb car, I don't know if that is really keeping with the spirit of the sports car idea.   No one is making an EV sports car or convertible right now, because I think they can't get the weight out and a 3800 lb Miata EV with 200 hp at $50k probably isn't going to sell.  Stuff like Miata, Toyota 86, or even Supra or Nissan Z that maybe aren't all about straight line power and are about driving dynamics doesn't really exist in the EV world.  

Cadillac fans for a few years were saying how light weight the ATS and CTS were, the Lyric is 5600-5900 lbs.  

Cadillac Magna ride has proven even in an almost 10,000 lbs SUV V edition they can make it handle. Engineering given time can pretty much make anything work. Just look at the handling and speed of the Hummer by GMC. 3.2 seconds in a 0 to 60 mph which you have used to quote performance all the time and on top of this with a low center of gravity, it handles well too even at the 9,000lb weight of that EV brick.

As has been proven over and over, a Tesla Platinum S versus and AMG Black and Tesla destroys the AMG Black.

Top Gear says it best, The Best Days of ICE are Over!

With that, who says Hyundai N EVs cannot beat an AMG Black if they wanted too.

1 hour ago, David said:

Cadillac Magna ride has proven even in an almost 10,000 lbs SUV V edition they can make it handle. Engineering given time can pretty much make anything work. Just look at the handling and speed of the Hummer by GMC. 3.2 seconds in a 0 to 60 mph which you have used to quote performance all the time and on top of this with a low center of gravity, it handles well too even at the 9,000lb weight of that EV brick.

As has been proven over and over, a Tesla Platinum S versus and AMG Black and Tesla destroys the AMG Black.

Top Gear says it best, The Best Days of ICE are Over!

 

With that, who says Hyundai N EVs cannot beat an AMG Black if they wanted too.

You brought up a lot of straight line performance, I already said EV’s kill it in a straight line.  But they don’t in the corners.

The Taycan ( the fastest one) is the Nurburgring EV record holder at 7:42.  That’s 19 seconds slower than the AMG GT63 4-door which is similar size and price.  The Taycan is 59 seconds behind an AMG Black Series or the aftermarket Mod 911 which are the all out sports cars.

But my other point was on the more affordable side of sports cars.  For $30-40k you can get a Miata, BRZ/GR86, GTI, WRX, Mustang, Camaro, etc.  All 4-cylinder cars with some fun factor.  There is no EV version of that, they can’t make a lower weight, fund handling car.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

You brought up a lot of straight line performance, I already said EV’s kill it in a straight line.  But they don’t in the corners.

The Taycan ( the fastest one) is the Nurburgring EV record holder at 7:42.  That’s 19 seconds slower than the AMG GT63 4-door which is similar size and price.  The Taycan is 59 seconds behind an AMG Black Series or the aftermarket Mod 911 which are the all out sports cars.

But my other point was on the more affordable side of sports cars.  For $30-40k you can get a Miata, BRZ/GR86, GTI, WRX, Mustang, Camaro, etc.  All 4-cylinder cars with some fun factor.  There is no EV version of that, they can’t make a lower weight, fund handling car.

Yet again, you clearly have not paid attention to the fact that Tesla Platinum S has more than proven itself at Nurburgring.

Watch The Tesla Model S Plaid Set A New EV Nurburgring Lap Record (forbes.com)

A Tesla Model S Plaid has set a new lap record for electric production cars at the Nurburgring, with an official lap time of 7min 35.579secs.

Not the Taycan!

For Racing again, NOT BMW nor Mercedes, but VW for EV record in racing at the same track.

Volkswagen ID.R is “Electric Racing Car of the Year” | Volkswagen Newsroom (volkswagen-newsroom.com)

Volkswagen ID.R Breaks Nurburgring EV Lap Record With a 6:05.336 (roadandtrack.com)

If you have looked at any of the latest Hummer by GMC videos as I stated, they do handle for how heavy they are and

EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES. 

Every leader has their day and then someone else comes along and beats them. GM had their day; Mercedes came along in the 80's to 90's and replaced them. Now it looks like Hyundai is doing it and Cadillac is starting to rebuild to get back to the Standard of the world. The next 8 years are going to really show the changes that will happen in the auto industry and YES, I expect Hyundai to deliver the next Pony EV car for people who want driving dynamics with Performance in the $30 - $40 K range.

1 hour ago, David said:

Yet again, you clearly have not paid attention to the fact that Tesla Platinum S has more than proven itself at Nurburgring.

Watch The Tesla Model S Plaid Set A New EV Nurburgring Lap Record (forbes.com)

A Tesla Model S Plaid has set a new lap record for electric production cars at the Nurburgring, with an official lap time of 7min 35.579secs.

Not the Taycan!

For Racing again, NOT BMW nor Mercedes, but VW for EV record in racing at the same track.

Volkswagen ID.R is “Electric Racing Car of the Year” | Volkswagen Newsroom (volkswagen-newsroom.com)

Volkswagen ID.R Breaks Nurburgring EV Lap Record With a 6:05.336 (roadandtrack.com)

If you have looked at any of the latest Hummer by GMC videos as I stated, they do handle for how heavy they are and

EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES. 

Every leader has their day and then someone else comes along and beats them. GM had their day; Mercedes came along in the 80's to 90's and replaced them. Now it looks like Hyundai is doing it and Cadillac is starting to rebuild to get back to the Standard of the world. The next 8 years are going to really show the changes that will happen in the auto industry and YES, I expect Hyundai to deliver the next Pony EV car for people who want driving dynamics with Performance in the $30 - $40 K range.

Well the Taycan had the record.  The AMG GT63S is 7:23 though, beats the Plaid by 12 seconds.  The Black Series is 6:43, over 52 seconds a lap faster.

The Hummer might handle well for a 9,000 lb vehicle, but that's because it weighs double of a normal size SUV, so what do you compare it too.  I am saying where is the EV that can handle with a Miata, BRZ, Corvette, Boxster/Cayman, etc.  Car and Driver compared the AMG EQS to the Model S Plaid, stated the AMG is better but it isn't enough AMG.   These EV's can blitz a quarter mile, but it is one trick pony performance, so I'd like to see the handling, breaking, weight cutting come into play, which over time with battery tech will eventually happen.

I hope Hyundai makes the 74, but it's a $75k car or more if they put 577 hp in it, the Ioniq 6 N is probably a $75k car, that's getting to low end Corvette money.   That's too much money for those.   Right now $40k is the base Ioniq 5 with 168 hp that weighs 4,000 lbs, not exactly a Golf GTI or Civic Type R competitor for fun factor.

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track

And he just showed you where the Plaid S ran faster than both of the above. You bringing up the pricer AMG GT was pointless and yet again, bar moving nonsense.

45 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And he just showed you where the Plaid S ran faster than both of the above. You bringing up the pricer AMG GT was pointless and yet again, bar moving nonsense.

M5 CS is 7:29 on the Ring, so is the Porsche Panamera, both faster than Model S Plaid.  I can't find a current E63 sedan time, the E63 wagon holds the wagon record at 7:45 and that was set in 2017.   GT63S has the 4-door record still, and that's basically an E63.   And these are cars that the Tesla has 400 hp on which further proves my point that it sucks in the corners.  The Corvette has 50% the horsepower of a Model S Plaid and is quicker around the Nurburgring by a few seconds.  

There is no electric car that can handle as well as a good ICE car, it's just pure fact.  I hope they fix that in the future.  But until they do, you aren't going to see the "fun to drive" $40k (or less) EV.  Maybe Hyundai will figure it out.

43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

M5 CS is 7:29 on the Ring, so is the Porsche Panamera, both faster than Model S Plaid.  I can't find a current E63 sedan time, the E63 wagon holds the wagon record at 7:45 and that was set in 2017.   GT63S has the 4-door record still, and that's basically an E63.   And these are cars that the Tesla has 400 hp on which further proves my point that it sucks in the corners.  The Corvette has 50% the horsepower of a Model S Plaid and is quicker around the Nurburgring by a few seconds.  

There is no electric car that can handle as well as a good ICE car, it's just pure fact.  I hope they fix that in the future.  But until they do, you aren't going to see the "fun to drive" $40k (or less) EV.  Maybe Hyundai will figure it out.

 

Yet the point of this story was about performance electric concepts that Hyundai are using to ensure they have Performance Electric.

You cannot point to ANY Mercedes EV that can outperform the Tesla and as such you point to ICE. Apple to Orange Comparison.

The fact that Tesla BEATS most of AMG Black auto's and only a couple ICE are a few seconds faster shows that Electric is about to take everything ICE had away and will do it faster, cleaner and better.

Hyundai as even you said has built a lovely looking Electric Concept and I would say that all of us that have posted on this new release love the design of the N Vision 74. Just make it pure Electric and stop wasting time on the Hydrogen thing as the best place for Hydrogen is in the Commercial market in Medium and Heavy-duty trucks. 

Accept that fact that Mercedes has NOTHING right now to beat Tesla on, they also are losing out to other companies that are beating them. 

Example, Mercedes won ZERO Red Dot awards over the last few years for the Luxury Auto Segment and Hyundai continues to clean up as the best Luxury maker right now.

Genesis Media Center : GENESIS SWEEPS THE BOARD AT RED DOT DESIGN AWARDS 2022

VW has won for their segment in the auto Industry but seems the rest of German auto companies have lost out to Asian companies.

Red Dot Design Award (red-dot.org)

Even Lowly Buick won an award last year. Red Dot Design Award: Buick Electra (red-dot.org)

End Result is Mercedes is on a slide down, they are following and trailing other global auto companies living on past glory for sales.

15 hours ago, David said:

Cadillac Magna ride has proven even in an almost 10,000 lbs SUV V edition they can make it handle. Engineering given time can pretty much make anything work. Just look at the handling and speed of the Hummer by GMC. 3.2 seconds in a 0 to 60 mph which you have used to quote performance all the time and on top of this with a low center of gravity, it handles well too even at the 9,000lb weight of that EV brick.

That thing stops as bad as 1 ton dually trucks. Not the greatest example of engineers being able to make anything work. 

You pretty much made exactly Smk's point, EVs can get after it in a straight line and nothing else. 

And you're the only one saying it "handles well".

"There's so much pitch, dive, and roll when the GMC Hummer EV Pickup accelerates, decelerates, or changes direction, it looks like something out of a children's cartoon.

This kind of silliness makes us giddy, but we also need to pause a moment and strongly recommend against ever using WTF mode on public roads. Cruising at 60 mph, the 9,000-pound Hummer needs 137 feet to stop when you mash the brake pedal on the floor. That's 3 feet farther than a 2020 GMC Sierra 3500HD diesel dually. Even with its crazy amount of regenerative braking, this truck absolutely does not have brakes commensurate with its power and speed capabilities.

Think about it: In just 3.0 seconds, you're traveling fast enough to need the same braking space as a dually, and you're still accelerating like crazy. It would be beyond easy to get into a situation where you're traveling way too fast to stop for another vehicle, a pedestrian, an animal, or anything else. You might not even be able to slow down enough to make a corner if you don't lift and brake soon enough. This is a crazy amount of weight moving ridiculously fast on all-terrain off-road tires, and the laws of physics are merciless."

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-gmc-hummer-ev-pickup-first-edition-first-test-review/

Lets wheel this in just a little bit...    (Pun on words...reel versus wheel...   This is an automobile site forum...)

1. BMW M5 CS is 7:29 on the Ring, so is the Porsche Panamera, both faster than Model S Plaid.  I can't find a current E63 sedan time, the E63 wagon holds the wagon record at 7:45....

The Model S Plaid is 7:36 on the 'Ring....   BMW and Porsche lives on the 'Ring. Especially the M5 CS.   Not too bad for an EV sedan when 'Ring times were a 6-7 year AFTERTHOUGHT on the same generation platform Model S from Tesla.   The E63 wagon that was quoted because of some sort of German superiority is still slowler than the heavy Model S EV sedan than NEVER had ANY intentions of doing ANY kind of track...   

2. The HUMMER, although its praised by its maker for being quick in a straight line, is not its primary role.  Its an offroading monster, literally a monster as big as a Costco and just about as heavy as a Costco building... 

Offoading tires on it...   

And no, it shoudnt be allowed to have a watts to freedom acceleration as its not engineered to handle all that acceleration and stopping with 9000 lbs and off roading tires and no brakes to handle all those forces.  

When the HUMMER is acceleration watts to freedom, it is limited to 106 MPH by the computer though... BECAUSE of the lack of braking AND the type of tires it comes with...

watch the video

3.  EVs  usually, inherently handle like they are on rails, well, the ones with a skateboard platform, because all the battery weight is below the axles beneath the rest of the passenger stuff.....

The over all weight is greatly masked.     The HUMMER is NOT focused to track, the HUMMER is focused on doing HUMMER things.  Doing off road, but mostly, giving the owner the attention he craves.  Look at me, Im an arrogant doouchee!!!    And it succeeds in that 100000000000%!!!    It steals the show away from a MB G Wagon and Lamborghini with ease!!! 

13 hours ago, David said:

Yet the point of this story was about performance electric concepts that Hyundai are using to ensure they have Performance Electric.

You cannot point to ANY Mercedes EV that can outperform the Tesla and as such you point to ICE. Apple to Orange Comparison.

The fact that Tesla BEATS most of AMG Black auto's and only a couple ICE are a few seconds faster shows that Electric is about to take everything ICE had away and will do it faster, cleaner and better.

Hyundai as even you said has built a lovely looking Electric Concept and I would say that all of us that have posted on this new release love the design of the N Vision 74. Just make it pure Electric and stop wasting time on the Hydrogen thing as the best place for Hydrogen is in the Commercial market in Medium and Heavy-duty trucks.

I like what Hyundai and Genesis are doing, and I like they they are getting into performance too.

And I think you can compare EV to ICE.  My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only.  You said Tesla can out perform other EV’s, but the Plaid’s lap time is slower than a Corvette that has half the horsepower.  Put a 500 hp EV on a track against a 500 hp Corvette and see what happens.  
 

And this leads to the affordable sports car issue I brought up.  A Miata, BRZ, GTI, Ecoboost Mustang are like $30k range, get into the 40s and the Supra and Z are there.  I doubt there will ever be a 200-300 hp sub $40k EV sports car that weighs under 3500 lbs and is tossable in corners.

50 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I like what Hyundai and Genesis are doing, and I like they they are getting into performance too.

And I think you can compare EV to ICE.  My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only.  You said Tesla can out perform other EV’s, but the Plaid’s lap time is slower than a Corvette that has half the horsepower.  Put a 500 hp EV on a track against a 500 hp Corvette and see what happens.  
 

And this leads to the affordable sports car issue I brought up.  A Miata, BRZ, GTI, Ecoboost Mustang are like $30k range, get into the 40s and the Supra and Z are there.  I doubt there will ever be a 200-300 hp sub $40k EV sports car that weighs under 3500 lbs and is tossable in corners.

I don't think it would be difficult to cut 500lb off of a Model 3 to get to about 3500lbs.

Actually, when they offered a RWD model, that wasn't long range, I bet that was right around 3500lbs and that's a sedan. I bet that could be made into a coupe with the same exact battery and motors therefore increasing its range AND its performance with the same parts. 

Their "standard range" battery and "standard range plus" battery in RWD form was good for 220 and 240 miles, respectively. That was also good for a 0-60 time of 5.0 seconds. That's a second quicker than an Ecoboost Mustang with the 10 spd.

49 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I like what Hyundai and Genesis are doing, and I like they they are getting into performance too.

And I think you can compare EV to ICE.  My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only.  You said Tesla can out perform other EV’s, but the Plaid’s lap time is slower than a Corvette that has half the horsepower.  Put a 500 hp EV on a track against a 500 hp Corvette and see what happens.  
 

And this leads to the affordable sports car issue I brought up.  A Miata, BRZ, GTI, Ecoboost Mustang are like $30k range, get into the 40s and the Supra and Z are there.  I doubt there will ever be a 200-300 hp sub $40k EV sports car that weighs under 3500 lbs and is tossable in corners.

Weight will always add slowness to any auto, EV or ICE. As such, you compensate with more horsepower and torque. Common Sense!

That being said there is no reason to not have an EV even with more HP / Torque outperform an ICE and Tesla is almost there far more than Porsche, Audi, VW, BMW and Mercedes.

Affordability is coming, economy of scale is what GM and Hyundai are focused on. Yet Hyundai is also not forgetting Performance nor is GM. GM seems to be going at it from top down based on the rumors about Corvette Coupe, Sedan and SUV EV based on media reports. Hyundai has always been about frugal fun and as such, IONIQ 5 N edition will be interesting, and I forecast as economy of scale for battery packs, lower priced performance EVs will get there.

Mazda did not have the Miata at the start, Mercedes did not have any AMG 1,2,3 series at the start, nor did BMW, Audi, etc. Performance ALWAYS has come after luxury and top end models are out which pay for the expensive R&D.

Example, Mercedes EQS Globally, Tesla S Globally, Cadillac Lyriq, Porsche, etc. everyone has to pay for the R&D somehow and they are doing it with the top end first, pushing into the lower priced brackets as economy of scale builds.

Hyundai has given us two AMAZING Concepts that to quote them are Rolling Labs on the roads / racetracks to prove what can be done with performance, yet Hyundai IONIQ and Kia EV are out first and the Genesis Luxury EV is in China and coming to the rest of the world this year.

IONIQ 5 N edition is out in 2023, yes this will not be a $30,000 road going Miata equal or BRZ or GR86 as terrible built as they are with the engine problems they are having, but Hyundai is keeping all levels in mind as they R&D what can be done with performance and the videos of the Concepts in this thread show that track, drifting, etc. are all possible.

I see NO GERMAN auto company that has built even a concept of a performance EV that can handle track or drift yet!

Hyundai has and has a working proven concept.

To QUOTE them, Track Optimized auto with proper cooling for Next Gen Driving Experience!

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think it would be difficult to cut 500lb off of a Model 3 to get to about 3500lbs.

Actually, when they offered a RWD model, that wasn't long range, I bet that was right around 3500lbs and that's a sedan. I bet that could be made into a coupe with the same exact battery and motors therefore increasing its range AND its performance with the same parts. 

Their "standard range" battery and "standard range plus" battery in RWD form was good for 220 and 240 miles, respectively. That was also good for a 0-60 time of 5.0 seconds. That's a second quicker than an Ecoboost Mustang with the 10 spd.

Tesla has this coming in the 2024 model built in Texas. Replacing 70 plus parts with a single cast frame system has already been stated to reduce weight by 400 pounds. Tesla has stated they plan to add in 2025 a front single cast system replacing the 80 plus frame parts and another about 400 pounds. As such Tesla is moving to the core frame of their autos to be a 3 piece system.

I suspect that GM, FORD, Asian, European, etc. all Legacy Auto OEMs are prototyping single cast or dual cast frames for their EVs. The company that supplies Tesla has already admitted that both GM, Ford, Mercedes, BMW and VW/Porsche are talking with them for single cast machines to simply their next gen EV platforms.

I think once you reduce all the parts to cast frame that allows a much more solid assembly while reducing weight you will see EVs get much closer to ICE in total curb weight.

Remember how Legacy OEMs moved to Aluminum and High strength thin steel to replace heavy dense normal steel dropping on average 500 to 700 pounds for trucks and SUVs. 

It will always be an engineering exercise to simplify, products and reduce weight for the auto industry.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And I think you can compare EV to ICE.  My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only.

Except it's not, especially when your initial comparison was regarding two other cars that were NOT the AMG GT you referenced later. After David showed where the Plaid S beat the two cars (that you first mentioned), you moved that bar in order to bring up the AMG GT. Point being, you were wrong on two fronts (EV's not having anything more than straight line speed and that the BMW and Benz you mentioned were BOTH slower than said EV around the track in question). No need to back pedal and make excuses because you were proven wrong. 

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think it would be difficult to cut 500lb off of a Model 3 to get to about 3500lbs.

Actually, when they offered a RWD model, that wasn't long range, I bet that was right around 3500lbs and that's a sedan. I bet that could be made into a coupe with the same exact battery and motors therefore increasing its range AND its performance with the same parts. 

Their "standard range" battery and "standard range plus" battery in RWD form was good for 220 and 240 miles, respectively. That was also good for a 0-60 time of 5.0 seconds. That's a second quicker than an Ecoboost Mustang with the 10 spd.

Per the Tesla website, the base rear drive standard range Model 3 is 3,862 lbs, 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and 272 mile range.  The 2022 Mercedes C300 is also around 3800 lbs, does 0-60 on 5.3 seconds per Car and Driver test.  I wouldn’t really call the C300 a sports car either.  
 

I don’t see how Tesla takes 400 lbs out of a Model 3 without shrinking the battery and sacrificing range.  

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Except it's not, especially when your initial comparison was regarding two other cars that were NOT the AMG GT you referenced later. After David showed where the Plaid S beat the two cars (that you first mentioned), you moved that bar in order to bring up the AMG GT. Point being, you were wrong on two fronts (EV's not having anything more than straight line speed and that the BMW and Benz you mentioned were BOTH slower than said EV around the track in question). No need to back pedal and make excuses because you were proven wrong. 

I first said the Taycan was the fastest EV around the Nurburgring, which it once was but the Plaid beat it.  I brought up the AMG GT63 4-door and the M5, which are both faster than the Plaid, so is the Panamera.  3 sedans faster than the Plaid and the Plaid has 400 hp more.  Proving my point that it doesn’t have the handling or braking.  

According to the wikipedia list of Nurburgring times there are 89 cars faster than the Tesla Model S Plaid.  Including this $59,000 (base MSRP) Audi which beat it by .05 seconds

And to update my earlier post, the E63 is not longer the fastest wagon, in May 2022 the BMW M3 Touring beat it and is now the wagon record holder, and is also faster than the Plaid.  So Tesla and the other EV's have work to do.  And I like the idea of EV's, so I hope they can get the weight out and get the cost out and come up with some good stuff.

The Ionic 5 N and Ionic 6 N are probably $70,000 cars, I think that's a lot for a Hyundai performance mid-size sedan or crossover.  A Cadillac CT5V (not the Blackwing) started at $51k, might not be as fast in a straight line but probably overall on a track is, and the aforementioned Audi RS3 is $59k! Now if Hyundai builds that 74 concept for under $45k, goodnight 300Z, Supra and Mustang (Camaro is going goodnight regardless).

57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

According to the wikipedia list of Nurburgring times there are 89 cars faster than the Tesla Model S Plaid.

I know you don’t want to admit that you are wrong and want to insist on us observing your new set of track standards but here are your exact words from your second post here. 
 

“An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track.”

And then David showed where you were wrong. 
 

Furthermore (per MT last year)

”While there's a long list of internal combustion engine performance cars faster than the Model S Plaid around the 'Ring, only two four-door vehicles are quicker than the Model S—the Jaguar XE SV Project 8 (7:23.164 in a Jaguar-conducted test), and the Mercedes-AMG GT 63 S 4Matic+ 4-Door (7:23.009 in a Mercedes-conducted but independently timed test”

End of discussion. 

14 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I know you don’t want to admit that you are wrong and want to insist on us observing your new set of track standards but here are your exact words from your second post here. 
 

“An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track.”

 

And then David showed where you were wrong. 
 

Furthermore (per MT last year)

”While there's a long list of internal combustion engine performance cars faster than the Model S Plaid around the 'Ring, only two four-door vehicles are quicker than the Model S—the Jaguar XE SV Project 8 (7:23.164 in a Jaguar-conducted test), and the Mercedes-AMG GT 63 S 4Matic+ 4-Door (7:23.009 in a Mercedes-conducted but independently timed test”

End of discussion. 

7:29 is faster than 7:35.5 of the Plaid.

24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

7:29 is faster than 7:35.5 of the Plaid.

 

So freakin what? The error is on MT then since it was their words. You, on the other hand, were still wrong as only stated M5 while the above is an M5 CS. Details matter I’m afraid. 

Pathetic 'ole @smk4565

The Tesla Model S was never engineered as a track car.

Th Plaid version neither. 

The Plaid was made just as a faster than a ludicrous mode P100D version to counter the Hellcat Challenger and Charger, in a straight line...

In case you dont know, neither Dodge muscle car engineering is catered to track. Even less so to track on the Nurburgring. 

Pathetically, you are arguing about lap times of a sedan, the BMW M5 CS, that is SPECIFICALY engineered to track on the Nurburgring. 

The Hellcat Demon does track work though.  Its just that it aint the kind of track that you are so stupidly arguing aboot.  (CDN accent,eh)

The Tesla's steering, suspension, software programming for acceleration is NOT engineered and fine tuned to do track work.

Unlike the BMW M5 CS. 

The Plaid does have a track mode. It is software programming. It is accessible.   But the steering and suspension systems are NOT specifically tuned to track and to track ON the Nurburgring.  

The tires used on the BMW M5 CS are track tires. 

The Plaid does use Michelin Pilot Sport 4S.  But these are great supercar tires for the street. NOT the track...

Weight distribution on the Model S is actually superior to the BMW M5 CS.  Its heavier, the Tesla is, but if it had the suspension tuning and tires of the M5 CS, it be faster BECAUSE all that heft is BELOW the axles and PERFECTLY DISTRIBUTED...

Remember, Tesla engineers just decided to say phoque it, we are going to track this car and in no time, got the Plaid Model S to do a Nurburgring run time of 7:36.  

Just like that...  7:36.

It took all of BMW's rich history of tracking and engineering  ultimate driving machines to do a 7:29 on a more powerful, more tuned version of the M5 to gain 7 seconds on the Plaid....  

Which means the Plaid probably is faster aound the 'Ring than more than a handful of shyttyy German sedans ON THEIR FIRST TRY INCLUDING BMW M5s of the SAME YEAR as that track mode Plaid S.

Why do you feel the need @smk4565 to discuss and argue like a teenager? 

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Weight distribution on the Model S is actually superior to the BMW M5 CS.  Its heavier, the Tesla is, but if it had the suspension tuning and tires of the M5 CS, it be faster BECAUSE all that heft is BELOW the axles and PERFECTLY DISTRIBUTED...

Remember, Tesla engineers just decided to say phoque it, we are going to track this car and in no time, got the Plaid Model S to do a Nurburgring run time of 7:36.  

Just like that...  7:36.

It took all of BMW's rich history of tracking and engineering  ultimate driving machines to do a 7:29 on a more powerful, more tuned version of the M5 to gain 7 seconds on the Plaid....  

Which means the Plaid probably is faster aound the 'Ring than more than a handful of shyttyy German sedans ON THEIR FIRST TRY INCLUDING BMW M5s of the SAME YEAR as that track mode Plaid S.

The Plaid has 1,000 hp.  If you took a 600 hp Tesla and a 600 hp BMW and put them on a track the results for the Tesla would be embarrassing.  Which is my point with EV performance.  And why I don't see an affordable EV sports car showing up any time soon, definitely not in the sub $45k like Camaro, Mustang, BRZ, Miata Civic Type R, Golf R, Nissan Z, etc whether you want muscle car, hot hatch or sports car.  I don't see an EV coming to take the place,

This N74/Ionic 6 N are more powerful than the Corvette (6.2 V8) and would likely cost the same as a Corvette and it would have no where near the performance of a Corvette.  Now one is mid-size sedan, not a lot of comps for non-luxury performance sedans except a Charger Hellcat.

Time for Schooling,

@smk4565

Per Wikipedia own website: Because Wikipedia cannot be considered a reliable source, the use of Wikipedia is not accepted in many schools and universities in writing a formal paper, and some educational institutions have banned it as a primary source while others have limited its use to only a pointer to external sources.

Reliability of Wikipedia - Wikipedia

Should you use Wikipedia as a credible resource? – Connors State College

Should university students use Wikipedia? | Students | The Guardian

Students are told not to use Wikipedia for research. But it's a trustworthy source (theconversation.com)

Is Wikipedia a Legitimate Research Source - Term Paper (termpaperwarehouse.com)

There is both sides to this coin and depending on sources cited in the Wiki page, some might actually be factual and valid for research and siting. Yet others are not and as theconversation.com site says as I have also seen elsewhere, spotting fake info is of the utmost importance than just citing something and saying it is true. 

Wiki is right on in saying that they are a great place to start looking for info, but one must do diligence to ensure that the facts are factual.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes and even I have made mistakes on sources, writing, etc. 

This boils down to apple-to-apple comparison of the facts and not mixing things up to fit one's personal narrative due to their belief being proven wrong on a subject.

This thread has been on a company that is producing EVs and NOT forgetting about performance. Comparing ICE to EV is an Apple to Orange comparison and as such, while one could say in old technology the numbers stand at XYZ, New Technology now stands at ZAB and future will be ABC.

Science is all about comparing like items and as such, ICE is used as a standard for EVs, yet EVs are surpassing ICE and the time is coming where nothing ICE can do will compare to where EV will go.

Evidence is in the stories you post that are all older than the EV stories or videos I posted. As such, in the past, we are now talking about the exciting future of where we are today and are going tomorrow.

Have a great weekend,

David

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The Plaid has 1,000 hp.  If you took a 600 hp Tesla and a 600 hp BMW and put them on a track the results for the Tesla would be embarrassing.  Which is my point with EV performance.  

you dont have a point. period.

There is more to track times, than just overall weight being low.   Low weight is just a single factor within a larger equation.  One shortcoming could be overcome with another factor in the equation.    And 1000 HP versus 600 HP is just one of those compensations. 

But you simply ignore the fact that the BMW M5 CS has actual steering, suspension and tires especially tuned for the track, and especially the Nurburgring as where the Plaid does not.   The actual hardware, the steering and suspension, are not track specific engineered. To compensate, software programming does its best to make the Plaid handle the track cornering going in and out of and leading back unto the straights. 

Unlike the CS's hardware where the hardware is specifically designed to do so.  On top of all that, the M5 CS is track tested specifically to run on the 'Ring to run fast times there.  Which also means that the CS might not be so dominant on another track since different tracks have different characteristics.  Anyways....    Also, the CS's tires are track specific tires.   Th Plaid has go fast grippy tires for the street. 

And the result is ONLY a 7 second difference...  Not much considering the Tesla's platform was primarily engineered to house a heavy battery and to be as efficient as possible for range, comfort, speed (in a straight line) for the street for daily driven purposes.

The 5 Series BMW  is a sports sedan known for cornering prowess. The M5 version of that is an even better sports sedan with even better cornering and the CS version is just a beast on the track because THAT is what its meant to do. All its hardware is meant to be a sports sedan for the street with very capable track prowess.

The Plaid is simply NOT a track car.  The Plaid is an EV to where most of the weight is perfectly and evenly distributed below the axles.  A factor that benefits track racing. A skateboard EV platform allows for that.  An ICE vehicle does not have that advantage.  Weight is a disadvantage for an EV, but the skateboard platform, battery on the bottom,  compensates for it.  

EV motors have instantaneous torque at any RPM, another advantage for EVs versus ICE.  Easy horsepower for EVs is another advantage. 

The ONLY things that could be the same for both EV and ICE ARE the suspension and steering components.  The BMW M5 CS chooses to have track oriented components while the Plaid does not.

The 7 second difference does not come from the difference in weight of the two, its the track specific steering, suspension and tires...  And possibly the engineering history of going fast around the track that BMW enjoys over Tesla.  But not too shabby for Tesla's 1st attempt...

You make it sound that EVs cant be competitive around the track because of heft, but the Plaid's 7:36 time around the 'Ring says otherwise...

To boot

The CS loses MORE weight. Carbon fibre hood, etc. to lose an extra 250 pounds or so.  Weighs in at a svelte 4000 lbs for a midsized, 4 door family hauling sedan.

The Plaid simply doesnt care to shed ANY additional poundage.  A carbon fibre hood, trunk, bumpers could eliminate some weight, but Tesla didnt do carbon fibre anything on the Plaid..  Tesla didnt build the Plaid to specifically go fast aound the 'Ring like BMW did the CS.  Tesla just wanted to show Porsche and the world that an EV CAN go fast around the 'Ring.   

Very cool to still watch for a street legal production car with street tires and suspension. For most people, 7 seconds is not identifiable unlike auto enthusiast. 

3 minutes ago, David said:

Very cool to still watch for a street legal production car with street tires and suspension. For most people, 7 seconds is not identifiable unlike auto enthusiast. 

 

 The video just proves that the Plaid desperately needs appropriate track oriented suspension and tires.  Its bouncing up and down and is everywhere on the track.  

PS:  at 4700 lbs, it aint even all that much heavy, to be honest...   It is an aluminum chassis and body after all...  

About the N 74 or whatever Hyundai is calling it.

Even though I am not feeling the look of it, I certainly approve of it and all Hyundai is trying to do with their EVs and especially their performance take on them..  

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Plaid has 1,000 hp.  If you took a 600 hp Tesla and a 600 hp BMW and put them on a track the results for the Tesla would be embarrassing.  Which is my point with EV performance.  And why I don't see an affordable EV sports car showing up any time soon, definitely not in the sub $45k like Camaro, Mustang, BRZ, Miata Civic Type R, Golf R, Nissan Z, etc whether you want muscle car, hot hatch or sports car.  I don't see an EV coming to take the place,

This N74/Ionic 6 N are more powerful than the Corvette (6.2 V8) and would likely cost the same as a Corvette and it would have no where near the performance of a Corvette.  Now one is mid-size sedan, not a lot of comps for non-luxury performance sedans except a Charger Hellcat.

 

Again, ignoring important and relevant facts in order to save face and move that bar once more. 

7:42

EV

Porsche Taycan Turbo and NOT the Turbo S

HP for Taycan Turbo 670.    Turbo S @ 750  Plaid @ 1020HP

weight for the Taycan 5200 lbs versus the Plaid @ 4700 lbs

for reference how a track specific ice car handles on the Nurburgring versus another that is not

But the suspension is track specific.  Watch the video and see how the Taycan is smooth on the track versus how rough the Plaid Tesla is.  The Taycan is planted while the Model S is bouncing up and down and side to side sloppy all over the place.  The Taycan IS heavier by 500 lbs.   And still, the Model S Plaid was faster because of the HP difference.    But the track suspension makes us see the difference between the two...

But Porsche decided to use a less powerful Taycan... That is interesting... 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29088855/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-nurburgring-lap-time/#:~:text=While the Turbo S makes,616 horses after that interval.

Quote

 

• Porsche used a Taycan Turbo, rather than a Turbo S, to achieve the Nürburgring lap record for a production electric vehicle.
• The Turbo S makes more power and torque and conceivably should turn a faster lap time.
• A Tesla Model S has been spotted on the Nürburging and is likely being used to make an attempt at stealing Porsche’s title.

Did Porsche leave time on the table when it claimed the Nürburgring lap record for a production electric vehicle? Stefan Weckbach, vice president of the Taycan product line, revealed to Car and Driver that the 7:42 record was set with a Taycan Turbo instead of the company’s more powerful Taycan Turbo S.

 

for reference how a track specific ice car handles on the Nurburgring versus another that is not.  The instructor in the Hellcat knows the track quite well and does and fantastic job communicating with the driver what to do, and ANYBODY that says the Hellcat cant handle twisties is just ignorant AF, but you could see the Hellcat is out of its element.  But the Hellcat does NOT have track specific suspension...

watch and analyze all videos @smk4565.   You will learn something and will make you stop spewing garbage. It is your birthday TODAY. So HAPPY BIRRTHDAY.  

I give you the gift of knowledge!!!

8 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

To boot

The CS loses MORE weight. Carbon fibre hood, etc. to lose an extra 250 pounds or so.  Weighs in at a svelte 4000 lbs for a midsized, 4 door family hauling sedan.

The Plaid simply doesnt care to shed ANY additional poundage.  A carbon fibre hood, trunk, bumpers could eliminate some weight, but Tesla didnt do carbon fibre anything on the Plaid..  Tesla didnt build the Plaid to specifically go fast aound the 'Ring like BMW did the CS.  Tesla just wanted to show Porsche and the world that an EV CAN go fast around the 'Ring.   

Correct that Tesla chose not to make the Plaid have the upgraded brakes, suspension, tires, weight reduction etc.  And that's their choice, but I wouldn't claim the Plaid as peak engineering since they just basically just added 1 motor and cranked up the voltage compared to the standard model.  Tesla could offer a performance or track package and I'm sure people would buy it.  But to Tesla (and other EV's) performance is 0-60 and 1/4 mile time and it isn't all straight line.

And the Plaid is faster than the Taycan and e-Tron GT around the track, but the Panamera is faster than the Taycan, the Audi RS3 is faster than the e-Tron GT, within the same brand the ICE cars are still faster because of EV weight.  Which I get eventually the batteries will get lighter and resolve a lot of that problem.

But we are talking high end cars with the Plaid and M5 CS.  What about a $40,000 sports car?    Or $50,000?  You won't get a fun to drive sports car, just a heavy EV that goes in a straight line, because they don't care about brakes, handling, suspension, etc, at least Tesla doesn't.  And the rest of these guys like to copy Tesla.

Final example, 

184" L x 74" W x 60" H at 4800 lbs

187" L x 71" W x 56" H at 3860 lbs

Both close in size, both cost in the high $60s, the Kia will easily beat the Cadillac 0-60 and 1/4 mile.  But I am guessing the Cadillac with 1,000 less pounds of weight is a much better to drive car.  And this is the EV problem, if Cadillac makes and Electric CT4, then it's a 4800 lb car that will handle like a 7-series or S-class, and the only thing the CT4 is good at is gone.  

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

7:42

EV

Porsche Taycan Turbo and NOT the Turbo S

HP for Taycan Turbo 670.    Turbo S @ 750  Plaid @ 1020HP

weight for the Taycan 5200 lbs versus the Plaid @ 4700 lbs

for reference how a track specific ice car handles on the Nurburgring versus another that is not

 

But the suspension is track specific.  Watch the video and see how the Taycan is smooth on the track versus how rough the Plaid Tesla is.  The Taycan is planted while the Model S is bouncing up and down and side to side sloppy all over the place.  The Taycan IS heavier by 500 lbs.   And still, the Model S Plaid was faster because of the HP difference.    But the track suspension makes us see the difference between the two...

But Porsche decided to use a less powerful Taycan... That is interesting... 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29088855/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-nurburgring-lap-time/#:~:text=While the Turbo S makes,616 horses after that interval.

 

 

for reference how a track specific ice car handles on the Nurburgring versus another that is not.  The instructor in the Hellcat knows the track quite well and does and fantastic job communicating with the driver what to do, and ANYBODY that says the Hellcat cant handle twisties is just ignorant AF, but you could see the Hellcat is out of its element.  But the Hellcat does NOT have track specific suspension...

watch and analyze all videos @smk4565.   You will learn something and will make you stop spewing garbage. It is your birthday TODAY. So HAPPY BIRRTHDAY.  

I give you the gift of knowledge!!!

 

 

Which proves my point that these "performance" EV's have trash handling, the M5 is the only one that looks like it belongs out there, the rest are mess in the handling department.  I want to see someone do a performance EV that isn't just rip your face off acceleration, and is actually a good handling car.  On an ICE car, like a Camaro, you can keep the same engine, and upgrade to the 1LE suspension, get the better brakes, etc.  On EV's the performance upgrade is bigger battery, bigger motor, penalize handling more for straight line speed.

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

1,000 less pounds of weight is a much better to drive car

nein.

The EV weight is BELOW the axles MASKING the heft quite nicely...  EVERY journalist, youtube influencer,  tear down reverse engineer and especially race car drivers says so...and quite frankly, physics...   Low center of gravity greatly improves handling and a skateboard EV platform is just that. Very low center of gravity no matter the weight.  And because the motors are directly connected to the driving wheels with no transmissions and driveshafts to contend with, your talk is simply bullshyte....

why do you insist on spewing garbage talk.

Should I start calling you Alex Jones?

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Which proves my point that these "performance" EV's have trash handling,

Nein....

UnpluggedPerformance super performance springs...

Listen to what Pobst says through the ENTIRE video...

Its the SUSPENSION that makes the difference...NOT the weight...

Listen to what he does and says about EVs and THIS particular EV has its OEM suspension parts...remember, THIS EV is the heaviest of the EVs we are talking about, Alex...

Notice, weight is NEVER mentioned? 

It proves nothing unless you want to remember that your average ICE (even from the Germans) is $h! on that track without all the adjustments mentioned for the Tesla (suspension, tires, etc). Just pure faulty logic there.

@oldshurst442 Thank you for posting, Randy Pobst has again proven my point way back at the beginning about Engineering. It is never the weight, but engineering to tune an auto to perform it's best and a tune of Suspension parts for track make that difference as you, @surreal1272 and myself keep saying.

Since Olds brought it to our attention and everyone deserves a special day.

@smk4565 Happy Birthday, I hope you have an enjoyable day whatever you choose to do.

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

nein.

The EV weight is BELOW the axles MASKING the heft quite nicely...  EVERY journalist, youtube influencer,  tear down reverse engineer and especially race car drivers says so...and quite frankly, physics...   Low center of gravity greatly improves handling and a skateboard EV platform is just that. Very low center of gravity no matter the weight.  And because the motors are directly connected to the driving wheels with no transmissions and driveshafts to contend with, your talk is simply bullshyte....

why do you insist on spewing garbage talk.

Should I start calling you Alex Jones?

 

So you are saying a Kia EV6 GT is a better handling car than a Cadillac CT4 Blackwing?  Model S Tesla handles better than an CT5 Blackwing?

2 hours ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 Thank you for posting, Randy Pobst has again proven my point way back at the beginning about Engineering. It is never the weight, but engineering to tune an auto to perform it's best and a tune of Suspension parts for track make that difference as you, @surreal1272 and myself keep saying.

Since Olds brought it to our attention and everyone deserves a special day.

@smk4565 Happy Birthday, I hope you have an enjoyable day whatever you choose to do.

The weight matters, the Model S Plaid has over double the horsepower of a Corvette, does a 9.2 second quarter mile compared to the Corvette's 11.2 and the Corvette would beat it on any track in the world that has more than 1 corner and 1 braking zone.  So if you make horsepower equal, say a Model 3 Performance vs a Corvette, I don't care what suspension parts they put on a Model 3, it isn't beating a Corvette on a track.  

And if Hyundai is going to make the N 74 or Ioniq 6 N handle like a sports car, how expensive is the suspension and brakes going to be to make that happen?  And how many buyers are out there for a $75,000 Hyundai performance sedan?  I don't see many Sonata N's out there and those are like $34,000 and they are killing the Sonata after this generation is word on the street.

And thank you all for the birthday wishes. 

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So you are saying a Kia EV6 GT is a better handling car than a Cadillac CT4 Blackwing?  Model S Tesla handles better than an CT5 Blackwing?

Hey Alex...

Stop the bullshytting once and for all. 

A Blackwing is engineered to handle with specific track suspension systems.  The KIA EV6 and Model S are engineered just to be driven on the street. Low center of gravity does the rest. 

What it is that you dont understand?

The Taycan, heavier and slower than the Model S is smooth on a track BECAUSE of the suspension...

Are you dense?

This is what a proper suspension for tracking Model S does...

Id say it kicks the Blackwing's a$$... 

It aint the phoquing weight,  Alex...

weight is but one factor...

The weight is below the axles.  Low center of gravity, Alex...

Argue with yourself now Alex!  Im done with you. 

38 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The weight matters, the Model S Plaid has over double the horsepower of a Corvette, does a 9.2 second quarter mile compared to the Corvette's 11.2 and the Corvette would beat it on any track in the world that has more than 1 corner and 1 braking zone.  So if you make horsepower equal, say a Model 3 Performance vs a Corvette, I don't care what suspension parts they put on a Model 3, it isn't beating a Corvette on a track.  

And if Hyundai is going to make the N 74 or Ioniq 6 N handle like a sports car, how expensive is the suspension and brakes going to be to make that happen?  And how many buyers are out there for a $75,000 Hyundai performance sedan?  I don't see many Sonata N's out there and those are like $34,000 and they are killing the Sonata after this generation is word on the street.

And thank you all for the birthday wishes. 

So which is it? Model 3 or Model S Plaid? 
 

And who, other than you, would EVER compare a four door ANYTHING to a mid-engine coupe? Your argument is literally all over the place.

And again @smk4565, it is simply baffling how you keep focusing on just HP and weight like there aren’t at least a dozen other factors there that you have willfully ignored up to this point. 
 

23 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Per the Tesla website, the base rear drive standard range Model 3 is 3,862 lbs, 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and 272 mile range.  The 2022 Mercedes C300 is also around 3800 lbs, does 0-60 on 5.3 seconds per Car and Driver test.  I wouldn’t really call the C300 a sports car either.  
 

I don’t see how Tesla takes 400 lbs out of a Model 3 without shrinking the battery and sacrificing range.  

You’re comparing cheap sports cars, which do 0-60 in 6 seconds and saying there needs to be a light sporty electric car. 
 

The ones I mentioned earlier were the original Model 3 when it could be had with a much smaller battery and was supposed to cost at or around 40k. That car doesn’t exist anymore. 
 

How about cutting 12-16" off the vehicle and make it a two-door sports car? That doesn’t sound unreasonable to think that would cut 3-400lbs. If it were a two-seater, that would certainly get the 400lb out.