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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    GM's Upcoming Electric Onslaught

      11 Vehicles, New Platform and Battery Tech


    On Wednesday, General Motors invited a number of media to their tech center in Warren, MI for their EV Day event. The company is making a big bet on electric vehicles with 11 new vehicles rolling out by 2025, featuring a new electric modular platform and battery tech. Here's what we know.

    Third-Generation Electric Vehicle Platform

    Underpinning this massive push is GM's new third-generation EV platform (BEV3). The new platform was designed to provide flexibility for different vehicle types - ranging from compact cars to pickup trucks. Battery packs are designed to be mounted beneath the passenger compartment to allow for a lower center of gravity. This results in more passenger room and improved handling. The platform also allows for different drive configurations - front, rear, or all-wheel drive - depending on the vehicle.

    Ultium Battery Technology

    Providing the electric power for these new models is what GM calls Ultium batteries. Working together with its battery partner LG Chem, the Ultium batteries are large-format, pouch-style cells that can either be stacked vertically or horizontally in packs. This will allow more flexibility for engineers to design battery packs for vehicles.

    More important is the chemistry of the batteries. GM has reduced the amount Cobalt - an element used in the making of batteries that is becoming harder to find and expensive - by seventy percent. Instead, the batteries are using aluminum. This will hopefully bring down the price of the battery packs.

    Battery capacity will range from 50 to 200 kilowatt hours - giving a projected max range of 400 miles depending on the vehicle. Level II and DC fast-charging are both supported.

    The Vehicles

    At the event, GM had 10 vehicles on display and one shown via digital renderings. The current plan is to start launching the new models beginning later this year.

    • Updated Chevrolet Bolt: The first vehicle to be launched in this offensive. It will get an updated interior with a more premium dash.
    • Chevrolet Bolt EUV: The crossover-variant of the Bolt, it is about five-inches longer and rides on a wheelbase that has been stretched by three inches. An updated roofline reportedly eliminates the small front windows on the Bolt. The EUV will also be the first model outside of Cadillac to get Super Cruise.
    • Chevrolet Midsize Crossover: About the same size as the Blazer, this model has an aggressive design and features a low roofline. A pair of 18-inch multimedia displays dominate the interior.
    • Chevrolet Full-Size Truck: This was the model only shown in digital renderings according to those who were at the event. It will complement the Silverado and be aimed at those who want something to be used on a job site - not like the upcoming GMC Hummer Truck or Rivian which are aimed more at lifestyle folks. This model is expected to arrive in 2025.
    • Buick Crossover and SUV: These two models didn't have a name and were wearing a design that was described by the Detroit Free Press as a "vaguely European look". 
    • GMC Hummer Truck: This will only be available in a crew-cab configuration with a five-foot bed. The design will be utilitarian and boxy. Inside, two large screens will serve as the instrument cluster and infotainment system. Don't expect any leather as many of materials used inside will be made from recycled materials. The truck will also have removable roof panels (like the Jeep Wrangler, that can be stored in the front trunk.
    • GMC Hummer SUV: Basically the same as the truck, albeit using a shorter wheelbase.
    • Cadillac Lyriq: We have seen teasers of this model last year and Cadillac dropped another this week showing off the silhouette - reminding us some crossovers from Jaguar and Porsche. The vehicle is wide and rides on 23-inch wheels. Size-wise, it is similar to the XT5. The interior boasts a 34-inch-wide high-def screen and seating for four, though the production model may have seating for five.
    • Cadillac Celestiq: A new four-door flagship sedan that has a long front end and a fastback rear according to those who saw the clay model. It will be hand-built and carry a six-figure pricetag.
    • Cadillac Large SUV: About the size of an Escalade, it be complementary vehicle to it. The model will have a more traditional design than the other Cadillac EVs. Inside, it will boast large screens up front and three-rows of seating.

    Source: Roadshow, Detroit Free Press, The Drive, General Motors
    Press Release is on Page 2


    GM Reveals New Ultium Batteries and a Flexible Global Platform to Rapidly Grow its EV Portfolio

    WARREN, Mich. – Starting today, General Motors Co. (NYSE: GM) is gathering hundreds of employees, dealers, investors, analysts, media and policymakers to share details of its strategy to grow the company’s electric vehicle (EV) sales quickly, efficiently and profitably.

    “Our team accepted the challenge to transform product development at GM and position our company for an all-electric future,” said Mary Barra, GM chairman and CEO. “What we have done is build a multi-brand, multi-segment EV strategy with economies of scale that rival our full-size truck business with much less complexity and even more flexibility.”

    The heart of GM’s strategy is a modular propulsion system and a highly flexible, third-generation global EV platform powered by proprietary Ultium batteries. They will allow the company to compete for nearly every customer in the market today, whether they are looking for affordable transportation, a luxury experience, work trucks or a high-performance machine.

    “Thousands of GM scientists, engineers and designers are working to execute an historic reinvention of the company,” said GM President Mark Reuss. “They are on the cusp of delivering a profitable EV business that can satisfy millions of customers.”

    Ultium Batteries and Propulsion System Highlights

    • GM’s new Ultium batteries are unique in the industry because the large-format, pouch-style cells can be stacked vertically or horizontally inside the battery pack. This allows engineers to optimize battery energy storage and layout for each vehicle design.
    • Ultium energy options range from 50 to 200 kWh, which could enable a GM-estimated range up to 400 miles or more on a full charge with 0 to 60 mph acceleration as low as 3 seconds. Motors designed in-house will support front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive, all-wheel drive and performance all-wheel drive applications.
    • Ultium-powered EVs are designed for Level 2 and DC fast charging. Most will have 400-volt battery packs and up to 200 kW fast-charging capability while our truck platform will have 800-volt battery packs and 350 kW fast-charging capability.

    GM’s flexible, modular approach to EV development will drive significant economies of scale and create new revenue opportunities, including: 

    • Continuous Improvement in Battery Costs: GM’s joint venture with LG Chem will drive battery cell costs below $100/kWh. The cells use a proprietary low cobalt chemistry and ongoing technological and manufacturing breakthroughs will drive costs even lower.
    • Flexibility: GM’s all-new global platform is flexible enough to build a wide range of trucks, SUVs, crossovers, cars and commercial vehicles with outstanding design, performance, packaging, range and affordability.
    • Capital Efficiency: GM can spend less capital to scale its EV business because it is able to leverage existing property, including land, buildings, tools and production equipment such as body shops and paint shops.
    • Complexity Reduction: The vehicle and propulsion systems were designed together to minimize complexity and part counts beyond today’s EVs, which are less complex than conventional vehicles powered by internal combustion engines. For example, GM plans 19 different battery and drive unit configurations initially, compared with 550 internal combustion powertrain combinations available today.
    • Rising Customer Acceptance: Third-party forecasters expect U.S. EV volumes to more than double from 2025 to 2030 to about 3 million units on average. GM believes volumes could be materially higher as more EVs are launched in popular segments, charging networks grow and the total cost of ownership to consumers continues to fall.
    • New Sources of Revenue: By vertically integrating the manufacture of battery cells, the company can reach beyond its own fleet and license technology to others.

    The first generation of GM’s future EV program will be profitable. The initial programs will pave the way for further accretive growth. GM’s technology can be scaled to meet customer demand much higher than the more than 1 million global sales the company expects mid-decade.

    Upcoming Launches and Reveals

    Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC and Buick will all be launching new EVs starting this year. The next new Chevrolet EV will be a new version of the Bolt EV, launching in late 2020, followed by the 2022 Bolt EUV, launching Summer 2021. The Bolt EUV will be the first vehicle outside of the Cadillac brand to feature Super Cruise, the industry's first true hands-free driving technology for the highway, which GM will expand to 22 vehicles by 2023, including 10 by next year.

    The Cruise Origin, a self-driving, electric shared vehicle, shown to the public in January 2020 in San Francisco, was the first product revealed using GM’s third generation EV platform and Ultium batteries. Next will be the Cadillac Lyriq luxury SUV in April. Details about its launch will be shared then. The reveal of the Ultium-powered GMC HUMMER EV will follow on May 20. Production is expected to begin in Fall 2021 at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant, GM’s first assembly plant 100 percent dedicated to EV production.

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    11 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    The AMG One might have been interesting 5 years ago, but now it would be just another hypercar.. Koenigseggegg is doing some really interesting things w/ ICE design. 

    Yes!

    A 3 cylinder.  No cams.  600 HP.  

    Like you said. The AMG-One is soooooo 5 years ago.  An F1 engine in a road car...   Great idea...to link F1 racing and road cars.  Too bad it aint the 1990s anymore.  

    Image result for acura nsx ayrton senna

    Image result for Mclaren f1 gordon murray

     

     

    6 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    I don't know if it will be the Z06 or the ZR1, but I'd love to see a street C8 with the wing and bodywork of the C8R...

    Yeah. Me too. Although the Stingray C8 is the first base Corvette that I like and probably will prefer over the more  hi-po versions in a long time. 

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    the car works, it hitting emissions that needs the work.

    Then it doesnt work...

    Emissions is the hard part...

    And emissions for ICE is getting stricter and stricter. And this is a race engine...that has to be engineered to be 1000 plus horsepower, to meet the engineering specs promised, WITHOUT CHEATING THE EMISSIONS PART...which are getting stricter and stricter to which Mercedes coulndt meet when the emission regulations were  relatively lax...

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/24/20881603/daimler-dieselgate-mercedes-benz-emissions-cheating-fine

     

    Quote

     

    Daimler fined nearly $1 billion for selling cars that cheated emissions tests

    At least 700,000 cars worldwide were designed to cheat

    Mercedes-Benz parent company Daimler has been hit with an €870 million (roughly $960 million) fine as part of a settlement with German prosecutors over the automaker’s own diesel cheating scandal. The fine comes in at the lower end of what was expected earlier this year.

    The news comes just about four years to the day after Volkswagen’s Dieselgate scandal was exposed by the Environmental Protection Agency and California’s Air Resources Board. Volkswagen’s massive emissions cheating scandal, which affected 11 million cars worldwide, kicked off several investigations and lawsuits that helped uncover similar efforts at automakers like Daimler to skirt regulations on diesel vehicles.

    Germany’s motor authority found that some 280,000 Mercedes-Benz C-class and E-class vehicles had been outfitted with software that made them look cleaner than they were during testing, similar to the grift that Volkswagen had pulled (though on a smaller scale). That led to a wider recall of some 700,000 affected vehicles around the world last year. Daimler also had to recall 60,000 GLK SUVs for the same issue earlier this year. The extent of Daimler’s cheating is still unknown, as an investigation by the US Department of Justice and a class action lawsuit in New Jersey are still ongoing.

     

     

     

     
     
    Edited by oldshurst442
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    13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

     

    Yeah. Me too. Although the Stingray C8 is the first base Corvette that I like and probably will prefer over the more  hi-po versions in a long time.  

    I'd be happy with a base C8 (maybe w/ the Z51 suspension option) in Zeus Bronze w/ full tan interior..

    d985121b7b81bdab4dd0faf4cd3d0493_1_a75e63644df7a20afe1eb478f09d260c5dd22554_6b7db40fe11a91f750344aa1ebf5db3f636d75ff-2.jpg

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    AMG One will happen, Mercedes is going to be in Formula 1 another 10 years that they committed to, so the R&D is already there.

    Also the Tesla will be heavy,  the Corvette needs to lose a 1,000 lbs of weight and double the horsepower to even get close to an AMG One.  I don’t know where GM engineers find 1,000 lbs to cut out of a C8 when the only way they know how add power is displacement and superchargers which adds more weight.

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    6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    AMG One will happen, Mercedes is going to be in Formula 1 another 10 years that they committed to, so the R&D is already there.

    Also the Tesla will be heavy,  the Corvette needs to lose a 1,000 lbs of weight and double the horsepower to even get close to an AMG One.  I don’t know where GM engineers find 1,000 lbs to cut out of a C8 when the only way they know how add power is displacement and superchargers which adds more weight.

    AMG One is DEAD, The web site implys that, MB does not talk about it and all links are dead that used to be active. They are cutting everywhere. Too late to the party, this is a product that never should have been to begin with. They should have focused on pure EV like Tesla.

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    It will be interesting to see what happens in F1 this year...if the season does indeed start in May or get cancelled completely...

    <sarcasm> They should just can cancel the rest of the season and give the championships to M-B and Hamilton, as that is the usual predictable result.. 

    </sarcasm>

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    15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    when the only way they know how add power is displacement and superchargers which adds more weight.

    Image result for mercedes kompressor badge

    Image result for mercedes kompressor badge

     

    Image result for Mercedes 6.3 amg badge


     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    33 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    It will be interesting to see what happens in F1 this year...if the season does indeed start in May or get cancelled completely...

    <sarcasm> They should just can cancel the rest of the season and give the championships to M-B and Hamilton, as that is the usual predictable result.. 

    </sarcasm>

    F1 ICE should just be killed and focus purely on F1E. 

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    Looks at that shtty SL in the first pic 2 posts up; plastic fake side scoop with plastic 'strakes' across it. Generic.

    Mercedes fans should be mad.

    Edited by balthazar
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    39 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    This tends to make me feel more solid about the death of AMG One and their exit from F1 racing as MB has HUGE FINES still to come in their Diesel emissions problem. Right now, I bet Diamlers board is looking at how to save money as they cut loses.

    That means F1 is dead, AMG One is dead especially since they are having major emissions problems with regular auto's and the FAILED AMG ONE cannot meet emissions.

    Here is one of many stories that show the Arab counteries are falling inline with Europe emissions and will be removing emission polluting autos from their roads.

    https://www.constructionweekonline.com/article-49209-higher-emission-standards-reshaping-uae-vehicle-fleets

    Days of ICE Hyper auto's is over especially when they cannot meet emissions.

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    2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    This tends to make me feel more solid about the death of AMG One and their exit from F1 racing as MB has HUGE FINES still to come in their Diesel emissions problem. Right now, I bet Diamlers board is looking at how to save money as they cut loses.

    That means F1 is dead, AMG One is dead especially since they are having major emissions problems with regular auto's and the FAILED AMG ONE cannot meet emissions.

    Here is one of many stories that show the Arab counteries are falling inline with Europe emissions and will be removing emission polluting autos from their roads.

    https://www.constructionweekonline.com/article-49209-higher-emission-standards-reshaping-uae-vehicle-fleets

    Days of ICE Hyper auto's is over especially when they cannot meet emissions.

    Somebody tell ocnblu THIS IS WHY governments will mandate BEVs over ICE cars in the near future.

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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Then it doesnt work...

    Emissions is the hard part...

    And emissions for ICE is getting stricter and stricter. And this is a race engine...that has to be engineered to be 1000 plus horsepower, to meet the engineering specs promised, WITHOUT CHEATING THE EMISSIONS PART...which are getting stricter and stricter to which Mercedes coulndt meet when the emission regulations were  relatively lax...

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/24/20881603/daimler-dieselgate-mercedes-benz-emissions-cheating-fine

     

     

     

     
     

    The Corvette doesn’t meet the WLTP emissions standards that AMG One is trying to make.  AMG wants this car to be world compliant, not a regional player.

    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    That’s old news, Mercedes said they will be in F1 for years to come.  Toto said it and their CEO said it.  They signed a 10 year sponsorship deal in February with a new sponsor.  They are here to stay and if this season ever starts they are going to win title number 7, as preseason testing shows their car the fastest again and has dual axis steering that no one else has.

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    5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Corvette doesn’t meet the WLTP emissions standards that AMG One is trying to make.  AMG wants this car to be world compliant, not a regional player.

    The Corvette is being sold in the HERE and NOW...

    The Corvette has a platform that WILL support hybrid EV with ICE and only ICE AND could be used to go 100% BEV...

    Tadge was being coy when being asked about future possible C8 platformed Vettes...but he hinted LOUDLY and  CLEARLY  that the car is compliant with GM's future with EVs and BEVs and that the  platform is engineered that way...

    PLUS...

    the AMG-ONE is 

    DEAD DEAD DEAD

     

    And quite frankly...it and Mercedes go to HELL HELL HELL for all I care...

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Image result for mercedes kompressor badge

    Image result for mercedes kompressor badge

     

    Image result for Mercedes 6.3 amg badge


     

     

    They haven’t used a supercharger in 10 years.  They went from 6.3 liter to 5.5 liter to 4.0 liters, and now they added mild hybrid system to the 4 liter V8 to help mileage and emissions.  And they did that in a 10 year span increasing power and fuel economy along the way.

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    31 minutes ago, dfelt said:

     

    Days of ICE Hyper auto's is over especially when they cannot meet emissions.

    The Corvette and Camaro can’t meet emissions in Europe either.  Which also means they don’t pass in South Korea, India or Japan that also use WLTP.  
     

    Why isn’t GM fixing that?

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    14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Corvette doesn’t meet the WLTP emissions standards that AMG One is trying to make.  AMG wants this car to be world compliant, not a regional player.

    That’s old news, Mercedes said they will be in F1 for years to come.  Toto said it and their CEO said it.  They signed a 10 year sponsorship deal in February with a new sponsor.  They are here to stay and if this season ever starts they are going to win title number 7, as preseason testing shows their car the fastest again and has dual axis steering that no one else has.

    Prove it with actual links and statements. Daimler web site and MB web site says NOTHING about signing new 10 year deal for F1. 

    SHOW ME THE BEEF? ?

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    9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    That’s old news,

    Are you buzzing?

    Look at the date...

    And stop trolling...   turbos and superchargers and big displacements are part of M-B. 

    Image result for the pot calling the kettle black

     

     

    Quote

     

    Wild Reports Suggest Mercedes Team Will Leave Formula 1 After 2020

    Mercedes might reportedly end its dominant F1 effort, and Canadian billionaire Lawrence Stroll could take it over and turn it into an Aston Martin team.

    JAN 29, 2020

     

     
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    2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Corvette and Camaro can’t meet emissions in Europe either.  Which also means they don’t pass in South Korea, India or Japan that also use WLTP.  
     

    Why isn’t GM fixing that?

    Easy, they DO NOT plan to sell the auto there. The Camaro EV will be the global auto.

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    2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Corvette and Camaro can’t meet emissions in Europe either.  Which also means they don’t pass in South Korea, India or Japan that also use WLTP.  
     

    Why isn’t GM fixing that?

    Stop trolling...

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    5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Easy, they DO NOT plan to sell the auto there. The Camaro EV will be the global auto.

    Right. Mercedes isn’t selling in one country so they need to be all country compliant.  And AMG’s sales and product management head said in November 2019 that the One is “first priority at AMG”.  So it happening and the most important project they have.

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    16 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Are you buzzing?

    Look at the date...

    And stop trolling...   turbos and superchargers and big displacements are part of M-B. 

    Image result for the pot calling the kettle black

     

     

     

    “Wild Reports”  And again they don’t have a supercharger in 10 years, and AMG has cut displacement over 33% from the 6.3 V8 of a decade ago.  And all AMG 53’s are all mild hybrids and the 63’s are in the process of switching over, GLE and GLS already are.

    On February 10, 2020 they signed a five year deal with Ineos ( I thought it was 10) and Mercedes committed to 5 more years of F1 and I don’t know if anyone else is committed that long.  
    https://jalopnik.com/mercedes-benz-confirms-its-commitment-to-formula-one-in-1841585529

    Edited by smk4565
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    3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    “Wild Reports”

    When on February 10, 2020 they sign a five year deal with Ineos ( I thought it was 10) and Mercedes committed to 5 more years of F1 and I don’t know if anyone else is committed that long.  
    https://jalopnik.com/mercedes-benz-confirms-its-commitment-to-formula-one-in-1841585529

    OK, lucky I found the link to a better covering of this.

    https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-arrogant-f1-team-pushed-ineos-to-mercedes-for-multi-year-deal/

    The weird part is that while I could only find the link you provided above and the one I found below. MB own web site has ZERO Coverage of this.

    https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/sports/

    https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/

    Everything that is on either of these two sites is either out of date or if it is on 2020, just related to the most recent F1 races or news of race status. Nothing about a new long term deal or anything more current than a year plus old info on AMG One.

    14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Right. Mercedes isn’t selling in one country so they need to be all country compliant.  And AMG’s sales and product management head said in November 2019 that the One is “first priority at AMG”.  So it happening and the most important project they have.

    MB has plenty of auto's they DO NOT sell here, NOT every auto MB makes is Global. So how is that any different than GM focusing on their two largest markets and not bothering with the others.

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    12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    AMG One will happen, Mercedes is going to be in Formula 1 another 10 years that they committed to, so the R&D is already there.

    Also the Tesla will be heavy,  the Corvette needs to lose a 1,000 lbs of weight and double the horsepower to even get close to an AMG One.  I don’t know where GM engineers find 1,000 lbs to cut out of a C8 when the only way they know how add power is displacement and superchargers which adds more weight.

    What was the projected price of the AMG One?

     

    Once you tell us that, then you will truly understand how absolutely insane it is to make the comparison you are making. I do know which car is actually real and will be on our roads en masse and I know which one is a now a figment of Daimler’s imagination right now.

    And seriously? Have the last six pages of this been wasted on responding to SMKs endless hypotheticals and apples to oranges comparison? Seriously?

     

    I am ashamed to have taken any part in this, quite honestly. 

    Edited by surreal1272
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    14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Mercedes is going to be in Formula 1 another 10 years that they committed to, so the R&D is already there.

    2021 regulations on spending money should REALLY shake things up. I'm really looking forward to a much more level playing field as it should be a much more competitive field. It'll be interesting to see how some of these young, great drivers fair when they actually get a car that's competitive. 

    14 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    It will be interesting to see what happens in F1 this year...if the season does indeed start in May or get cancelled completely...

    <sarcasm> They should just can cancel the rest of the season and give the championships to M-B and Hamilton, as that is the usual predictable result.. 

    </sarcasm>

    You're not wrong though. 2021 should be interesting as there will be an imposed spending limit and it should level out the field so the small teams can actually afford to put out a competitive car. 

    13 hours ago, dfelt said:

    F1 ICE should just be killed and focus purely on F1E. 

    I mean, there are two separate organizations.. Just let them both do their own thing. 

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    15 hours ago, dfelt said:

     

    MB has plenty of auto's they DO NOT sell here, NOT every auto MB makes is Global. So how is that any different than GM focusing on their two largest markets and not bothering with the others.

    But the WLTP standards are tougher than US, so if the car passes in Europe it will pass here.  And most of what Mercedes doesn’t sell in the US is a diesel or a wagon.  Every model line is sold here, for cars anyway, not the commercial trucks and busses.

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    5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    What was the projected price of the AMG One?

     

    Once you tell us that, then you will truly understand how absolutely insane it is to make the comparison you are making. I do know which car is actually real and will be on our roads en masse and I know which one is a now a figment of Daimler’s imagination right now.

    And seriously? Have the last six pages of this been wasted on responding to SMKs endless hypotheticals and apples to oranges comparison? Seriously?

     

    I am ashamed to have taken any part in this, quite honestly. 

    $3 million.

    My original point was about Celestique costing more than a Porsche Taycan or more than an AMG GT63, perhaps more than a GT73 hybrid which will be on sale by then.  And that GM won’t allow Cadillac to make a sedan faster than a Corvette, even if GM engineers could figure out how to.  So Celestique won’t have performance of already a available product.  These leaves them with one option to win on luxury and have Bentley level interior but Cadillac hasn’t had a class leading interior in 50 years so how do they pull that off?

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    32 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Yet as I posted, Daimler and MB own corporate news site has NOTHING about this. One has to question if it really will happen when their own company web sites do not state this.

    Questionable

    What's the company site you're speaking of? 

    This is the Mercedes F1 team site.

    https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-f1-launch/mercedes-announces-principal-partnership-ineos/

    Edited by ccap41
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    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    Something else you may(or may not because the dislike for the company) like:

    https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-03/mercedes-benz-sustainable-change-motorsport/

     

    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    What's the company site you're speaking of? 

    This is the Mercedes F1 team site.

    https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-f1-launch/mercedes-announces-principal-partnership-ineos/

    When looking at that site which I did post in response to SMK, I did not find that, so between the time I looked and you guys posting they must have added the info. Good to know they are invested at a shorter time. Glad they will continue to support F1. Thank you for posting as that is one of @smk4565 problems is running off the mouth with no valid links to back up his apple to orange comparisons.

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    36 minutes ago, dfelt said:

     

    When looking at that site which I did post in response to SMK, I did not find that, so between the time I looked and you guys posting they must have added the info. Good to know they are invested at a shorter time. Glad they will continue to support F1. Thank you for posting as that is one of @smk4565 problems is running off the mouth with no valid links to back up his apple to orange comparisons.

    I think you must not have scrolled down far enough as it was announced in February. There was a button "load more" and it was down further. 

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    On 3/16/2020 at 2:24 PM, smk4565 said:

    $3 million.

    My original point was about Celestique costing more than a Porsche Taycan or more than an AMG GT63, perhaps more than a GT73 hybrid which will be on sale by then.  And that GM won’t allow Cadillac to make a sedan faster than a Corvette, even if GM engineers could figure out how to.  So Celestique won’t have performance of already a available product.  These leaves them with one option to win on luxury and have Bentley level interior but Cadillac hasn’t had a class leading interior in 50 years so how do they pull that off?

    Again, everything you have said here is purely subjective and just pure trolling which led to six pages of pure waste because you still stand by the baseless assumptions you have made. Meanwhile, you wholesale deflect this very same criticisms when they are aimed at Daimler. And Benz doesn’t even have a Bentley level interior so why the hell does Cadillac need to? Again, a bunch of random apples to oranges comparison by you all because GM is laying out a plan that Daimler won’t even fully commit to, EVs. 

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    I'd like to see what justifies a $200,000 base price for a Cadillac.   When an Escalade starts at $75,000.  And in time we'll see what they build, unless they cancel it.

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    51 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I'd like to see what justifies a $200,000 base price for a Cadillac.   When an Escalade starts at $75,000.  And in time we'll see what they build, unless they cancel it.

    Same could be said for MB when they have crapy $30,000 FWD appliances. So what justifies the over amped, under delivered Maybach crap.

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    33 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Same could be said for MB when they have crapy $30,000 FWD appliances. So what justifies the over amped, under delivered Maybach crap.

    The A-class has nothing to do with the S-class.  The S-class has been the best car in the world for decades, it justifies it's price.  And S-class Maybach sales were up 10% last year.   Cadillac is going into space they never went before, without any track record of winning in the lower segments.  

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    29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The A-class has nothing to do with the S-class.  The S-class has been the best car in the world for decades, it justifies it's price.  And S-class Maybach sales were up 10% last year.   Cadillac is going into space they never went before, without any track record of winning in the lower segments.  

    WOW, Clearly you are now wanting to say Cadillac has no history of building luxury barges before MB built an overpriced Maybach that now has FWD appliances as part of the family selling for $30,000.

    Before you trash a brand, know the history.

    Where was MB when Cadillac was selling these? NO WHERE

    1934 Cadillac Aerodynamic Coupe — US$7,850 new, $147,000 inflation-adjusted

    1933-cadillac-aerodynamic2.jpg?quality=1

    1930s Cadillac 452 V-16 — up to US$8,150 new, $153,000 inflation-adjusted

    1931-cadillac-series-452a-v16.jpg?qualit

    1941 Cadillac Custom Limousine ‘The Duchess’ — US$14,000 new, $240,000 inflation-adjusted

    1941-cadillac-custom-limousine-the-duche

    Cadillac was selling the worlds best luxury barges before MB even thought of selling anything equal to it! ?

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    I doubt Mercedes Benz was exporting any cars to the USA prior to the 1960s, so their best cars were all stuck in Germany.  It is not MB's fault Cadillac went downmarket with the original 1976 Seville, then came all of Cadillac's errors and MB/BMW took advantage in the 1980s.

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    11 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    I doubt Mercedes Benz was exporting any cars to the USA prior to the 1960s, so their best cars were all stuck in Germany.  It is not MB's fault Cadillac went downmarket with the original 1976 Seville, then came all of Cadillac's errors and MB/BMW took advantage in the 1980s.

    I agree with you and understand that, but SMK speaks as if Cadillac never did a high end 6 figure luxury car before and has no ability to do that. They have done it, they can do it again and we now have to wait to see if the Celestiq can live up to the price tag.

    Especially since it is an EV sedan.

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    25 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    I doubt Mercedes Benz was exporting any cars to the USA prior to the 1960s, so their best cars were all stuck in Germany.  It is not MB's fault Cadillac went downmarket with the original 1976 Seville, then came all of Cadillac's errors and MB/BMW took advantage in the 1980s.

    MB started importing by '56-57. They partnered with Studebaker and used their dealerships for years and even advertised with the company. It was a long tough road, putting their cars in with Studebaker and instantly making them look 10 years older. When a mercedes S and a Studebaker Lark were on equal tiers...

    MB Stude 4.png


    But the Seville was an upmarket move, not down. Or if not up, at least a lateral.

    Edited by balthazar
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    10 hours ago, dfelt said:

    I agree with you and understand that, but SMK speaks as if Cadillac never did a high end 6 figure luxury car before and has no ability to do that. They have done it, they can do it again and we now have to wait to see if the Celestiq can live up to the price tag.

    Especially since it is an EV sedan.

    Well, nobody currently working at Cadillac was a part of those 30's-40's vehicles so there really isn't any proof they have the ability to do it, yet. 

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    10 hours ago, dfelt said:

    WOW, Clearly you are now wanting to say Cadillac has no history of building luxury barges before MB built an overpriced Maybach that now has FWD appliances as part of the family selling for $30,000.

    Before you trash a brand, know the history.

    Where was MB when Cadillac was selling these? NO WHERE

    1934 Cadillac Aerodynamic Coupe — US$7,850 new, $147,000 inflation-adjusted

    1933-cadillac-aerodynamic2.jpg?quality=1

    1930s Cadillac 452 V-16 — up to US$8,150 new, $153,000 inflation-adjusted

    1931-cadillac-series-452a-v16.jpg?qualit

    1941 Cadillac Custom Limousine ‘The Duchess’ — US$14,000 new, $240,000 inflation-adjusted

    1941-cadillac-custom-limousine-the-duche

    Cadillac was selling the worlds best luxury barges before MB even thought of selling anything equal to it! ?

    Mercedes made the 770 in the 1930s and they made the 540K Roadster with a 1936 price of $68,000 or $1.25 million in today’s money.  And one recently sold for $11.7 million at auction.

    And I am saying that Cadillac’s recent history even going back to the Allante gives no confidence that they can do a $200k car.  Nothing about GM operates today suggests they would do low volume vanity projects when platform and parts bin share is the company mandate.  And nothing suggests the public wants to pay $200k for a Cadillac when the CT6 and CTS got cancelled because they didn’t sell.  And the CT5 is sub $37k now.

    Edited by smk4565
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    No- it's real all right. Just; not in production. But it certainly could be. Hence; Cadillac can compete in this price tier by putting their concept-caliber cars into production.

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    57 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    No- it's real all right. Just; not in production. But it certainly could be. Hence; Cadillac can compete in this price tier by putting their concept-caliber cars into production.

    But this is GM we are talking about..they always figure out how to cheap out... beancounters won't let them go all out.

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