GM To Launch Two New EVs Within 18 Months, 20 Hydrogen and EVs By 2023

Interesting, I get hedging your bet with some Hydrogen ideas, but I really doubt they will be the big win. EV is the future I see.

Just wish GM was more aggressive here than they currently are.

I don't think Fuel Cells are going to catch on, car companies have tried it for 10 years now, no one wants it.  Good to see them planning a lot of EV's, I don't think the Bolt's shape or a Cadillac wagon is the way to go, but if they build sedans and crossovers those will sell.

I suspect that GM will build whatever form of electric vehicle that will sell.  The platforms are more important since they can theoretically switch from sedan to crossover to minivan with just a body switch at relatively low cost.

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think Fuel Cells are going to catch on, car companies have tried it for 10 years now, no one wants it.  Good to see them planning a lot of EV's, I don't think the Bolt's shape or a Cadillac wagon is the way to go, but if they build sedans and crossovers those will sell.

fuel cells, "HCCI"... we'll see about the 2nd from Mazda, hopefully "soon" in production(2019 model)

Riv, yeah, if the "powertrain" can be modular, just pull it out if it's a flop and and change it to the other version...

Pretty sure this was new Tesla did not want to hear...

That said- While I love the idea- I'm not sure we as a country are ready for the demand (power) just yet.

Now, if we can get more solar into folks homes to power their cars/trucks, it would really help....

If I were to get a Bolt, I would want to charge off solar power.......

10 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Pretty sure this was new Tesla did not want to hear...

That said- While I love the idea- I'm not sure we as a country are ready for the demand (power) just yet.

Now, if we can get more solar into folks homes to power their cars/trucks, it would really help....

If I were to get a Bolt, I would want to charge off solar power.......

West coast is ready and the rest will catch up.

10 hours ago, dfelt said:

West coast is ready and the rest will catch up.

Hope you're right my friend....

Though they are starting to update the power grid around here....so hoping!

I wonder how this is going to work with the continued weakness in public interest for electrics?  It's clearly "cart before the horse" and a bit suicidal.  Government regulation is not the same thing as consumer demand.

Car makers don't want to be left behind...wouldn't be good business if GM waited until 2030 to have a lot of electrics and be perceived as foot dragging.  

3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

I wonder how this is going to work with the continued weakness in public interest for electrics?  It's clearly "cart before the horse" and a bit suicidal.  Government regulation is not the same thing as consumer demand.

First public interest is not weak, as has been stated here by many, the chicken or egg issue in regards to charging and auto options has always been the problem. Many are sitting on the side lines waiting to see what new options they get and many options are coming.

With this, I see Autoblog did a comparison of sales between the Bolt and Volt and find that many customers prefer the CUV Bolt over the Volt.

Autoblog story

Nissan Leaf is also showing the same sales increase for EV's over Hybrids. 

Like everything and just like ICE in the Early 1900's, those that are willing to adjust their habits are willing to take the ease and savings of owning an EV and charging at their own house or work place and as the Gas Stations become Charging stations with XFC or Xtreme Fast Chargers (Level 4) that gives 300 miles of charge in less than 15 min, we will see habits change on those that are more set in their ways about changing.

Cart before the Horse maybe, maybe not, clearly I expect you to be one of the last to change over if ever to EV's, yet the bulk of the public will change over in the next 15-20 years as the country changes with the rest of the world regardless of if you believe in Climate change or not. 

Many are wanting a healthier place to live for themselves, their children and the future of the planet.

I'd expect Ocn to go Amish with a horse and buggy before an EV... 

2 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I'd expect Ocn to go Amish with a horse and buggy before an EV... 

who'd be the bigger horse's ass in that situation?

8 hours ago, ocnblu said:

I wonder how this is going to work with the continued weakness in public interest for electrics?  It's clearly "cart before the horse" and a bit suicidal.  Government regulation is not the same thing as consumer demand.

I really am starting to think that at the moment it is lack of selection rather than lack of interest.

If Honda / Toyota / Chevrolet build a completely EV Accord / Camry / Malibu or RAV4 / CR-V / Equinox with range over 200 miles, I really do believe interest in EVs would increase dramatically.

Right now, consumers have few choices for plug-ins:

1. Good range, odd Looking / Ugly, but relatively inexpensive - Bolt, Leaf 2.0

2. usable range, normal looking, relatively expensive compared to platform mates - Pacifica Hybrid, Volt, Fusion Energie, CMax

3. "why bother?", normal looking, relatively expensive compared to platform mates - Plug-in Pruis, Honda Accord PHEV

4. "why bother?" range, normal looking, expensive options - All of the BMW and Mercedes plug-ins.  Volvo has a bit more range, but not much.

5. Good range, normal looking, expensive - Tesla

6. usable range, normal looking, expensive - CT6 PHEV

With the exception of the Fusion Energi, there is nothing here in the meat of the market.  No crossovers except for the expensive Model X and the Euros. Nothing AWD except for the Teslas and Euros. No trucks. 

If there is a lack of interest by consumers in making purchases, I'd argue it is because there is a lack of anything interesting to buy.

27 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I really am starting to think that at the moment it is lack of selection rather than lack of interest.

If Honda / Toyota / Chevrolet build a completely EV Accord / Camry / Malibu or RAV4 / CR-V / Equinox with range over 200 miles, I really do believe interest in EVs would increase dramatically.

Right now, consumers have few choices for plug-ins:

1. Good range, odd Looking / Ugly, but relatively inexpensive - Bolt, Leaf 2.0

2. usable range, normal looking, relatively expensive compared to platform mates - Pacifica Hybrid, Volt, Fusion Energie, CMax

3. "why bother?", normal looking, relatively expensive compared to platform mates - Plug-in Pruis, Honda Accord PHEV

4. "why bother?" range, normal looking, expensive options - All of the BMW and Mercedes plug-ins.  Volvo has a bit more range, but not much.

5. Good range, normal looking, expensive - Tesla

6. usable range, normal looking, expensive - CT6 PHEV

 

With the exception of the Fusion Energi, there is nothing here in the meat of the market.  No crossovers except for the expensive Model X and the Euros. Nothing AWD except for the Teslas and Euros. No trucks. 

If there is a lack of interest by consumers in making purchases, I'd argue it is because there is a lack of anything interesting to buy.

 

It for sure is due to lack of choices.  I think the shape of the Bolt and Leaf hurt sales.  If they were conventional sedans or crossovers they would sell better.  I think that is why there is huge demand for the Model 3, it is a normal sedan, plus Tesla is gotta have brand.

Plug in hybrids are a stop gap product, in 10 years the batteries will have 300 mile range and recharge in 10 minutes and weigh less than they do now, and at that point why bother with a plug in.  

I just realized, I forgot the BMW i3... but it's okay, so did everyone else on the planet. 

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It for sure is due to lack of choices.  I think the shape of the Bolt and Leaf hurt sales.  If they were conventional sedans or crossovers they would sell better.  I think that is why there is huge demand for the Model 3, it is a normal sedan, plus Tesla is gotta have brand.

Plug in hybrids are a stop gap product, in 10 years the batteries will have 300 mile range and recharge in 10 minutes and weigh less than they do now, and at that point why bother with a plug in.  

Not just a stop-gap. They are the stepping stone.  They help create demand for the plug-in infrastructure that is currently lacking. 

Had to reread the press release and realized that GM is going to invest in the charging network it sounds like here in the US after stating they would be helping with investing in the XFC system in Europe.

Fletcher said GM is planning to introduce the new vehicles in key, emerging segments. She also added that GM will help with "accelerating" the deployment of rapid-charging stations for its customers. There are currently more than 1,100 available publicly to GM customers in the United States. She declined to provide further details, citing more details "to come soon."

So I take this as a positive sign that GM will help with the build out of the charging network and I hope in the details to come that it is all based on XFC systems.

XFC = Xtreme Fast Charging has two levels, first one is a 350 Volt system. Second level is the one Porsche is pushing the 800 Volt system. Both can charge on par with gas dispensing.

5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I really am starting to think that at the moment it is lack of selection rather than lack of interest.

If Honda / Toyota / Chevrolet build a completely EV Accord / Camry / Malibu or RAV4 / CR-V / Equinox with range over 200 miles, I really do believe interest in EVs would increase dramatically.

Right now, consumers have few choices for plug-ins:

1. Good range, odd Looking / Ugly, but relatively inexpensive - Bolt, Leaf 2.0

2. usable range, normal looking, relatively expensive compared to platform mates - Pacifica Hybrid, Volt, Fusion Energie, CMax

3. "why bother?", normal looking, relatively expensive compared to platform mates - Plug-in Pruis, Honda Accord PHEV

4. "why bother?" range, normal looking, expensive options - All of the BMW and Mercedes plug-ins.  Volvo has a bit more range, but not much.

5. Good range, normal looking, expensive - Tesla

6. usable range, normal looking, expensive - CT6 PHEV

 

With the exception of the Fusion Energi, there is nothing here in the meat of the market.  No crossovers except for the expensive Model X and the Euros. Nothing AWD except for the Teslas and Euros. No trucks. 

If there is a lack of interest by consumers in making purchases, I'd argue it is because there is a lack of anything interesting to buy.

 

VW E-Golf, Focus Electric and 500E all look largely identical to their normal counterparts, yet they sell abysmally.  Mercedes has reduced the number of Smart dealerships to coincide with Smart's dumb move to all-electric... to adjust for demand.  Your argument is silly.

7 hours ago, FAPTurbo said:

who'd be the bigger horse's ass in that situation?

I believe that would be your mother.

my mom's dead so you can stop beating that horse now

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

It for sure is due to lack of choices.  I think the shape of the Bolt and Leaf hurt sales.  If they were conventional sedans or crossovers they would sell better.

This theory doesn't come CLOSE to being borne out by the sales numbers.

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

VW E-Golf, Focus Electric and 500E all look largely identical to their normal counterparts, yet they sell abysmally.  Mercedes has reduced the number of Smart dealerships to coincide with Smart's dumb move to all-electric... to adjust for demand.  Your argument is silly.

I believe that would be your mother.

All all three of those cars you mention also have very short ranges compared to cars like the Bolt. It’s not hard to figure out the problem there and it has jack squat to do with looks, in this case. 

6 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

All all three of those cars you mention also have very short ranges compared to cars like the Bolt. It’s not hard to figure out the problem there and it has jack squat to do with looks, in this case. 

One of Drew's apologies for weak electric sales penetration was odd appearance of the big players.  So I met him at that juncture.

13 hours ago, ocnblu said:

VW E-Golf, Focus Electric and 500E all look largely identical to their normal counterparts, yet they sell abysmally.  Mercedes has reduced the number of Smart dealerships to coincide with Smart's dumb move to all-electric... to adjust for demand.  Your argument is silly.

You just mentioned 3 compliance auto's that are only sold in select states and not available nation wide. On top of that the 500e was killed off. So the argument is not silly it is valid that Drew posted. There is little choice at this time other than Leaf or Bolt.

4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

One of Drew's apologies for weak electric sales penetration was odd appearance of the big players.  So I met him at that juncture.

Except at that juncture, it is not an apples to apples comparison. 

13 hours ago, ocnblu said:

VW E-Golf, Focus Electric and 500E all look largely identical to their normal counterparts, yet they sell abysmally.  Mercedes has reduced the number of Smart dealerships to coincide with Smart's dumb move to all-electric... to adjust for demand.  Your argument is silly.

I believe that would be your mother.

E-Golf - Range 112 miles, starting price $30k, $11k more than a base Golf

Focus Electric - Range 118 miles city / 96 miles highway, starting price $29k, however, Ford is giving them away with $10k worth of incentives right now

Fiat 500E - Range 87 miles, starting price $32,600 and only sold in California

All of those fit in classification #2 of "usable range", "Normal looking", "substantially more expensive than platform mates". 

Range is still a factor. Anything between 40 miles and 100 miles I consider usable, but not great. Anything over 200 will be able to suit most typical drivers, even if they don't realize it yet.   The Volt gets around the range issue by having the regenerator, it looks like a fancy Cruze, but it is still rather pricey compared to a Cruze.  The three you mentioned still have range anxiety issues being lower than the 200 mile mark. 

The Bolt is the first in this price class to get over 200 miles to a charge.... my argument is that it would sell even better if it looked more like a normal car instead of an egg.  I personally don't think it looks bad, but I don't think it has visual appeal to the mass market. Bolt powertrain in a Malibu at only a slight premium over an LT model (say something around like the price premium of buying a diesel), and you'd start to see some real movement in sales.   In my own case, I'd like a plug-in, but there are none yet that meet the requirements within our budget.  The closest I can get right now is the new XC60 PHEV. 

SMART is just dumb anyway, the sales there have been tanking for years and dealers who saw the opportunity to exit, did so.  If I were a Benz dealer, I wouldn't have kept SMART around absent any announcement that they were going to expand the brand into a family car brand.

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

This theory doesn't come CLOSE to being borne out by the sales numbers.

There are no statistics to back up either claim since the vehicles I am referring to do not exist on the market. 

Focus and Golf EV sell out in Ontario due to 14k govt rebate, making them as cheap as base models but with more equipment.

Interesting.

I imagine a lot of this is platform sharing to spread the tech among the brands. So will Cadillac get the high performance EV motors (preferably in-wheel for torque-vectoring) and big, fat battery packs to power them? 

48 minutes ago, Suaviloquent said:

Interesting.

I imagine a lot of this is platform sharing to spread the tech among the brands. So will Cadillac get the high performance EV motors (preferably in-wheel for torque-vectoring) and big, fat battery packs to power them? 

I certainly hope so as in-wheel hub motors with torque vectoring would make a bad ass awd EV. I can totally see this for an Escalade.

2 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

Interesting.

I imagine a lot of this is platform sharing to spread the tech among the brands. So will Cadillac get the high performance EV motors (preferably in-wheel for torque-vectoring) and big, fat battery packs to power them? 

 

 

I would think not.  GM will be looking to reuse as much of the existing technology into other vehicles as possible.  They won't be doing in-wheel motors if the battery and other running gear for Bolt, Volt, CT6, and Malibu Hybrid are all using stuff tuned for a more traditional electric motor.  At most, you'll see a larger electric motor for heavier / more premium applications... and a dual motor setup for AWD applications if using a pure EV platform. 

9 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

E-Golf - Range 112 miles, starting price $30k, $11k more than a base Golf

Focus Electric - Range 118 miles city / 96 miles highway, starting price $29k, however, Ford is giving them away with $10k worth of incentives right now

Fiat 500E - Range 87 miles, starting price $32,600 and only sold in California

All of those fit in classification #2 of "usable range", "Normal looking", "substantially more expensive than platform mates". 

Range is still a factor. Anything between 40 miles and 100 miles I consider usable, but not great. Anything over 200 will be able to suit most typical drivers, even if they don't realize it yet.   The Volt gets around the range issue by having the regenerator, it looks like a fancy Cruze, but it is still rather pricey compared to a Cruze.  The three you mentioned still have range anxiety issues being lower than the 200 mile mark. 

The Bolt is the first in this price class to get over 200 miles to a charge.... my argument is that it would sell even better if it looked more like a normal car instead of an egg.  I personally don't think it looks bad, but I don't think it has visual appeal to the mass market. Bolt powertrain in a Malibu at only a slight premium over an LT model (say something around like the price premium of buying a diesel), and you'd start to see some real movement in sales.   In my own case, I'd like a plug-in, but there are none yet that meet the requirements within our budget.  The closest I can get right now is the new XC60 PHEV. 

SMART is just dumb anyway, the sales there have been tanking for years and dealers who saw the opportunity to exit, did so.  If I were a Benz dealer, I wouldn't have kept SMART around absent any announcement that they were going to expand the brand into a family car brand.

There are no statistics to back up either claim since the vehicles I am referring to do not exist on the market. 

And even with Ford GIVING them away... no takers.  Huge clue for braille users on the subject.  FCA LOSING $20k PER UNIT on 500e... GM LOSING $9k PER UNIT on Bolt... what auto exec in their right mind would support this?  It is business suicide... plain and simple.  And listen up... GM NEEDS to sell MORE HIGH PROFIT vehicles, like full size trucks and SUVs with smallblock V8 engines, to SUBSIDIZE the tiny, TINY amount of Bolts they sell... THE WHOLE THING IS HILARIOUSLY SELF DEFEATING.  And to think there are people here who think this can in any way shape or form actually work. 

10 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There are no statistics to back up either claim since the vehicles I am referring to do not exist on the market. 

Correct; not with the parameters you stated. But there are plug-ins in conventional sedans that are roundly rejected by the market... because this (and any) vehicle purchase is never a singular criteria.

My point was within the field that's out there now, the Bolt is doing very well; 7 months straight of sales increases & #5 overall. I don't see it's shape holding it back so far.

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

what auto exec in their right mind would support this? 

https://www.economist.com/news/business/21728980-its-government-developing-plan-phase-out-vehicles-powered-fossil-fuels-china-moves

https://electrek.co/2017/08/15/germany-going-electric-ban-on-petrol-diesel-cars-amid-auto-industry-scandal/

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/france-ban-petrol-diesel-cars-2040-emmanuel-macron-volvo

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/norway-to-ban-the-sale-of-all-fossil-fuel-based-cars-by-2025-and-replace-with-electric-vehicles-a7065616.html

And more countries to come....

So....even if you feel there is no consumer demand for EVs...which Im sure you could debate this quite successfully...because it APPEARS to be the case but not really...but its OK...because...

automakers are being FORCED to change...it dont matter!!!

You may die and never get to experience the EV...stubbornly as it may be...

YOU being that ass in that pic there!!!

And I get it...you would rather be Juan in that same pic trying to get that donkey to take you to work rather than you ever riding in an EV...which is absolutely fine...but I guarantee you that your kids will ONLY be buying EVs no matter how hard YOU convince them not too...

Remember when smokers said that their right to smoke in bars, commercial flights, restaurants etc. was being violated?

Well...same shyte applies here! (social pressures is where Im getting at)

And the manufacturers have to comply because they will have NO CARS to sell (in China...largest car market) and so will go bankrupt anyway...regardless if they lose $9000 on a Bolt today!

Just try to look a tiny wee bit further than your nose!!!

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

And even with Ford GIVING them away... no takers.  Huge clue for braille users on the subject.  FCA LOSING $20k PER UNIT on 500e... GM LOSING $9k PER UNIT on Bolt... what auto exec in their right mind would support this?  It is business suicide... plain and simple.  And listen up... GM NEEDS to sell MORE HIGH PROFIT vehicles, like full size trucks and SUVs with smallblock V8 engines, to SUBSIDIZE the tiny, TINY amount of Bolts they sell... THE WHOLE THING IS HILARIOUSLY SELF DEFEATING.  And to think there are people here who think this can in any way shape or form actually work. 

It's a limited production vehicle that has better options out there now. 100 miles isn't enough range. If it had 200+ mile range, it would sell substantially better. The Bolt is already beating sales expectations. Are you trying to say that a much more conventional looking Focus with similar range, performance, and price to the Bolt wouldn't sell better? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

33 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Correct; not with the parameters you stated. But there are plug-ins in conventional sedans that are roundly rejected by the market... because this (and any) vehicle purchase is never a singular criteria.

My point was within the field that's out there now, the Bolt is doing very well; 7 months straight of sales increases & #5 overall. I don't see it's shape holding it back so far.

Few of the plug-in hybrid sedans have an EV range worth mentioning.  Volt is the best at 50, followed by Pacifica Hybrid and CT6 PHEV at 30ish.  The Euros except Volvo are in the mid-teens, Volvo gets barely over 20. 

Yes that is what I'm saying.  But you're throwing out hypotheticals so the point is moot.  I'm looking at factual data to support what I'm saying... without diarrhea of the mouth like ahem that one Canadian dude in here with the wadded, bloody pantie liners.   

25 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Yes that is what I'm saying.  But you're throwing out hypotheticals so the point is moot.  I'm looking at factual data to support what I'm saying... without diarrhea of the mouth like ahem that one Canadian dude in here with the wadded, bloody pantie liners.   

It seems like you are the one with the...um...girlie issues...

Your reality is not looking past your nose...

Ew..

So you really think a normal looking car with the same performance as the bolt won't sell as well as the bolt?

IMO, the Bolt is completely 'normal looking' (for a stubby hatch).

18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

IMO, the Bolt is completely 'normal looking' (for a stubby hatch).

I would agree.

I saw a new Honda Fit this afternoon on the road...and I immediately saw the Chevy Bolt in it...

Eerily alike...

 I also saw the same similarities with the Nissan Leaf...

And the  2017 Versa Note...

So yeah...all these little cars share the same attributes...

The Bolt looks just like its sub-compact (CUV if you wanna go there) brethren...

21 hours ago, balthazar said:

IMO, the Bolt is completely 'normal looking' (for a stubby hatch).

And we know how well stubby hatches sell...  Fiesta, Mazda 2, Accent hatchback, Yaris hatch, all cancelled or in danger of being so.  

iM, Sonic 5 door both on life support. 

Only the Fit and Versa seem to move any real numbers, and those are still a small fraction of the sedan counterparts.

The Bolt is different, tho. It's got a lil lightning bolt on it.

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The Bolt is different, tho. It's got a lil lightning bolt on it.

And the Bolt has the trendy floating roof design...like the new Leaf.  The Fit and Versa have more ordinary 6-light greenhouses.

Enough about the 'floating roof', already.