GM To Cut Back On Production As Inventory Is At An 8-Year High

27 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

U u were talking premium not luxury the Impala is premium take a look do some research like the Avalon and the 300 they are considered to be premium at the top of the scale within their brands if u are only talking about that then u are completely missing my point

If your beloved Implala is so "premium" then WTF is the LAX doing?!?! The Impala isn't premium. Buick is premium, Cadillac is Luxury. To not only skip over Buick for a loaner and jump down to the lowest totem pole for a loaner..sucks as a customer.

Let me spend my 60k on a gorgeous Cadillac and when it has issues(because they will at the very least have some recall) lend me a damn Chevy.. when CADILLAC made a recallable part. Or they at least put it under their hoods.

Or, as Stew has pointed out.. If I spend my 60k on an Audi... at least I get a damn Audi when AUDI is the one who made the broken part.

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Simply.... no.  A loaded ES still has button blanks in it. The interior plastics are terrible for the class. Styling is subjective, but the Avalon's dash seems more cohesively styled to me and the panel surrounding the HVAC and infotainment feels very very nice. 

 

Ok, maybe the ES isn't hat it once was and I agree the Avalon is a much better offering and it is even sort of fun to drive for a fullsizer. 

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Simply.... no.  A loaded ES still has button blanks in it. The interior plastics are terrible for the class. Styling is subjective, but the Avalon's dash seems more cohesively styled to me and the panel surrounding the HVAC and infotainment feels very very nice. 

 

Wow, I like the center console section of the Toyota much better than the Lexus. Neither center stack looks all that great in these pictures but neither looks bad either.

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

If your beloved Implala is so "premium" then WTF is the LAX doing?!?! The Impala isn't premium. Buick is premium, Cadillac is Luxury. To not only skip over Buick for a loaner and jump down to the lowest totem pole for a loaner..sucks as a customer.

Let me spend my 60k on a gorgeous Cadillac and when it has issues(because they will at the very least have some recall) lend me a damn Chevy.. when CADILLAC made a recallable part. Or they at least put it under their hoods.

Or, as Stew has pointed out.. If I spend my 60k on an Audi... at least I get a damn Audi when AUDI is the one who made the broken part.

It sounds like this is a dealer per dealer issue.  When I had a Cadillac, when it went in for service, I got a Cadillac loaner.  Even today, when our Encore goes in for service (different dealer), I get a Buick loaner... it's usually a used Lucerne... but it's still a Buick. 

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Wow, I like the center console section of the Toyota much better than the Lexus. Neither center stack looks all that great in these pictures but neither looks bad either.

The pictures distort the Toyota a bit.  If you haven't sat in one, you can't really tell from the pictures that the upper center stack is actually angled towards the driver.  It makes it a very Star Trek consol feel to it and its very convenient to use. 

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It sounds like this is a dealer per dealer issue.  When I had a Cadillac, when it went in for service, I got a Cadillac loaner.  Even today, when our Encore goes in for service (different dealer), I get a Buick loaner... it's usually a used Lucerne... but it's still a Buick. 

See that sounds like how it should be and how the Caddy dealer I have gone to works as well.

Random-ish, but my local Ford dealer will actually pick my car up from the "park and ride" bus stop I park at and drop it off before I get back and I just have to stop in and pay when I do get back to my car.

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

See that sounds like how it should be and how the Caddy dealer I have gone to works as well.

Random-ish, but my local Ford dealer will actually pick my car up from the "park and ride" bus stop I park at and drop it off before I get back and I just have to stop in and pay when I do get back to my car.

That's pretty nice.  My Cadillac dealer would pick up from my office in downtown.  My Buick dealer does from my house.

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

See that sounds like how it should be and how the Caddy dealer I have gone to works as well.

Random-ish, but my local Ford dealer will actually pick my car up from the "park and ride" bus stop I park at and drop it off before I get back and I just have to stop in and pay when I do get back to my car.

I hope they change here because it is really horrible the way they do.  The own The Chevy/Buick/Caddy/GMC dealership, the Ford/Lincoln Kia dealership, the Mazda dealership, and the Nissan Toyota dealership here, the biggest ones anyway.  that said, the place I bought my car has the used only lot, bought the closest Mopar dealership, and bought the Ford/Honda dealership here by work so hopefully that will force the other one to up their game. 

Hmmmm, dealership where i bought the Camry and Bug has a very nice 14 Avalon XLE.  Hmmmmmm

14 minutes ago, Stew said:

Hmmmm, dealership where i bought the Camry and Bug has a very nice 14 Avalon XLE.  Hmmmmmm

I've had the current body Avalons a few times (probably that same year) and always enjoyed them.  They are much faster than their horsepower numbers suggest.  My only complaint would be that they overcompensated when they stiffened up the suspension over the floaty prior model and they seem to be much more prone to losing traction under hard acceleration on poor quality pavement.

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I've had the current body Avalons a few times (probably that same year) and always enjoyed them.  They are much faster than their horsepower numbers suggest.  My only complaint would be that they overcompensated when they stiffened up the suspension over the floaty prior model and they seem to be much more prone to losing traction under hard acceleration on poor quality pavement.

Ah yes, still like them.  maybe when i am done with the bug i will consider an Avalon as a replacement.  Don't get me wrong, I love my bug , but at times i just wish I had a lot more room and more comfortable seats.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

If your beloved Implala is so "premium" then WTF is the LAX doing?!?! The Impala isn't premium. Buick is premium, Cadillac is Luxury. To not only skip over Buick for a loaner and jump down to the lowest totem pole for a loaner..sucks as a customer.

Let me spend my 60k on a gorgeous Cadillac and when it has issues(because they will at the very least have some recall) lend me a damn Chevy.. when CADILLAC made a recallable part. Or they at least put it under their hoods.

Or, as Stew has pointed out.. If I spend my 60k on an Audi... at least I get a damn Audi when AUDI is the one who made the broken part.

WTF is the LaX doing??? Its being a Buick that what. This is not the Alfred Sloan era. Each one of these brands essentially lives on its own.. with only a nudge towards the other despite themselves. Chevy having the Impala has NOTHING to do with the LaX in the minds of the buyers.. Ye.. the new LaX is more premium than the Impala.. in fact I'll go so far as to call it a LUXURY vehicle.. cause again.. we must be mincing words in what PREMIUM means. To me.. and many alike.. Premium= IMPALA (especially LTZ) , Avalon (epecially XLE Premium), Maxima (especially Platinum,Taurus (especially Limited) , and 300. 

And again.. as I said.. it must be a dealership thing with Stew's brother because the Caddy dealers in my area loan out nothing but Cadillacs over the last 7 years. 

Oh.. and YES my Impala is LOVED. It has been an exemplary car in all ways.. getting attention and praise as much as any luxury car on the market including Caddy and Benz. It has never let me down.. is quiet, serene, plush, smooth.. and powerful. I kno I kno... 305HP isn't a big deal anymore but just a few years ago it was literally powering Corvettes and 911s. 

48 minutes ago, Stew said:

Hmmmm, dealership where i bought the Camry and Bug has a very nice 14 Avalon XLE.  Hmmmmmm

4 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

WTF is the LaX doing??? Its being a Buick that what. This is not the Alfred Sloan era. Each one of these brands essentially lives on its own.. with only a nudge towards the other despite themselves. Chevy having the Impala has NOTHING to do with the LaX in the minds of the buyers.. Ye.. the new LaX is more premium than the Impala.. in fact I'll go so far as to call it a LUXURY vehicle.. cause again.. we must be mincing words in what PREMIUM means. To me.. and many alike.. Premium= IMPALA (especially LTZ) , Avalon (epecially XLE Premium), Maxima (especially Platinum,Taurus (especially Limited) , and 300. 

And again.. as I said.. it must be a dealership thing with Stew's brother because the Caddy dealers in my area loan out nothing but Cadillacs over the last 7 years. 

Oh.. and YES my Impala is LOVED. It has been an exemplary car in all ways.. getting attention and praise as much as any luxury car on the market including Caddy and Benz. It has never let me down.. is quiet, serene, plush, smooth.. and powerful. I kno I kno... 305HP isn't a big deal anymore but just a few years ago it was literally powering Corvettes and 911s. 

FYI it is my partner's daily driver and is comfortable with good fuel mileage and utterly reliable so far.  Sorry we don't all drive CTS-Vs........

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

the new LaX is more premium than the Impala.. in fact I'll go so far as to call it a LUXURY vehicle..

Aaaaaaaaaand that's how you lose credibility.

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Aaaaaaaaaand that's how you lose credibility.

Why? A loaded out LaX is pretty luxurious... 

Being "pretty luxurious" and being a "luxury vehicle" are not the same thing.

Maybe I should have just said, "Humping one company just for the sake of is why you lose credibility." But what I said was shorter.

22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Being "pretty luxurious" and being a "luxury vehicle" are not the same thing.

Maybe I should have just said, "Humping one company just for the sake of is why you lose credibility." But what I said was shorter.

They are fuzzy definitions.  There are more than a couple vehicles in the luxury class that I would consider to be less luxury than a LaX. Different people define it differently. 

5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It's okay... the MKZ and Continental tout the same engines as an F-150, Taurus, and Fusion.  And the 3.0T is just a modified 2.7T so they have a badging distinction.

3.0L and 2.7L share almost no components. Very different.  

34 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

3.0L and 2.7L share almost no components. Very different.  

I've been told the exact opposite from Lincoln reps. 

27 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I've been told the exact opposite from Lincoln reps. 

You've now been told by a powertrain engineer who had his hand in both engines.

And the uniqueness is more so with Truck, which is the only application for RWD.  At least that is being sold today.

Wow...easy folks.......

Dave nailed it with the first post. There is no other excuse. This is hitting ALL automakers, just some more than others. 

-Crazy election has has people worried....and worried more about the economy

- sedans/ coupes are on the decline-everyone and their grandma wants to sit up high. Hell, my old ass wants to sit up high too.....

-new and better products are on the way. Folks know, and are waiting...

-We have not seen much in the way of deals with sales currently. People are in deal mode, and also waiting....(heck, I may pick off an old Nox' or good lease/buy deal on a Cruze)

You guys are reading way, way to much into this...

Being here for more than a decade,  I've watched sales  go up and down for all different reasons. Throwing something simple as a little cash on the hood will help........

3 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

You've now been told by a powertrain engineer who had his hand in both engines.

And I'm Donald Trump's nominee for the EPA.  I've never seen any credentials that you've presented. The guy I was talking to had a Lincoln branded name tag on. 

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Aaaaaaaaaand that's how you lose credibility.

How so??? Have U been in a new '17 LaX? In fact I wager to say that a '16 LaX was quite the definition of a luxury car. Even more interesting is that U, I bet, have no issue with labeling an MKZ, ES350, or TL a luxo.. so why would the LaX not qualify? Fact is the XTS is a luxury car.. the LaX and Impala have a great deal of the qualities built into the XTS... Yes the Caddy has a softer leather and slightly different chassis tuning.. but the badge and styling are the truest differences in the three. They are all quite nice, despite your prejudices. BTW, honestly, the new LaX is a very nice place to be

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Being "pretty luxurious" and being a "luxury vehicle" are not the same thing.

Maybe I should have just said, "Humping one company just for the sake of is why you lose credibility." But what I said was shorter.

The analogy is completely lacking.. "CREDIBILITY." Why? Because it makes absolutely zero sense. BTW. I might hump GM til its lips are a bruised purple.. but I have, I guarantee, driven and been in 10X as many of the competition as U have.

7 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They are fuzzy definitions.  There are more than a couple vehicles in the luxury class that I would consider to be less luxury than a LaX. Different people define it differently. 

Yup. I can list a few luxo cars that I believe are under the current LaX in luxo when the content is viewed. The 528 is a vehicle I have driven and could not figue for the life of my WHY anyone would buy it when the 535 and up were available. The 320 and 328.. the MKZ... the Genesis... the TLx.. the ES350.. Shit. I am seriously trying to figure out.. based on the interior.. why the Maserati Ghibli and Tesla Model S are considered luxo

56 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Yup. I can list a few luxo cars that I believe are under the current LaX in luxo when the content is viewed. The 528 is a vehicle I have driven and could not figue for the life of my WHY anyone would buy it when the 535 and up were available. The 320 and 328.. the MKZ... the Genesis... the TLx.. the ES350.. $h!. I am seriously trying to figure out.. based on the interior.. why the Maserati Ghibli and Tesla Model S are considered luxo

The Tesla Model S....Id leave that one out...

Its luxury for 1 reason only...and NOTHING at GM has an answer for...not Cadillac, not even Corvette. Maybe the Bolt. But the Model S is eons and eons ahead of the Bolt...

TECHNOLOGY.

As in automotive breakthrough waaaay forward thinking in propulsion using alternative energies that actually is redefining the way the automobile is powered. Which is a luxury component on itself.

If Tesla were to use Italian cows on their seats with uber soft plastics and funky suedes and velours  on their dashes with exotic Martian metals for their buttons and 24k gold trimmed pieces to outline their iPad displays, the price tag of the Model S would surpass that of the Space Shuttle Columbia...

The TLX...

Nobody said the TLX is luxury...its premium. By your very own definition.

The TLX spanks the Impala in quality and in build.

And even if you dont think so, the TLX has got something that GM also does not have an answer for.

Not Cadillac. Not even Corvette.

SH-AWD.

Ok...GM does have a similar system. But GM does not have PAWS.

Hey...I much prefer the Impala over the TLX...but, when trying to sling mud a certain way, try not to get it on yourself...

PS...A 2012 TL SH-AWD might be waaaay ugly, but its by far a better premium car for premium purposes than a Super Epsilon Chevy Impala LTZ.  A TLX or TL is screwed more tighter than an Impala...tighter tolerances is what I mean...

Just because the Impala LTZ has French stitching on the dash, it does not mean that it out-premiums the Acura...

HOWEVER...I do agree with all of your other posts in this thread...

I just felt I needed to defend the Acura and the Tesla...

11 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Wow...easy folks.......

 

Dave nailed it with the first post. There is no other excuse. This is hitting ALL automakers, just some more than others. 

-Crazy election has has people worried....and worried more about the economy

- sedans/ coupes are on the decline-everyone and their grandma wants to sit up high. Hell, my old ass wants to sit up high too.....

-new and better products are on the way. Folks know, and are waiting...

-We have not seen much in the way of deals with sales currently. People are in deal mode, and also waiting....(heck, I may pick off an old Nox' or good lease/buy deal on a Cruze)

You guys are reading way, way to much into this...

Being here for more than a decade,  I've watched sales  go up and down for all different reasons. Throwing something simple as a little cash on the hood will help........

Actually this was a long time coming. They all did know it was coming but the exact date.

The Election did not bring this on and while GM has more inventory they had prepared for this this higher ATP and less incentives leading up to it. As stated in one story they have a lot of wiggle room to work in that some MFG with already high incentives do not have.

Now that we are post election I would not be surprised that many in the media will try to misrepresent things to push for more economic turmoil as they are not happy with the results. Just look at what they have done to try to diminish the new president elect before he even is in office. To be fair the other side did their things too but in their case the bias of the media was not with them accept for one network.

GM will weather this storm well and better than some MFG. The key is that we do not need a economic storm to hit while this is going on.

The American auto market has limits to growth and it will only come in spurts now as people keep cars longer and many just can no afford new cars anymore. With the youth many are not even getting drivers license till later if at all. Changes are coming in how the auto market works and everyone is watching and adjusting.

We will see incentives come as we do every auto show season starting in Jan and it will clean up some of the extras inventory. If you are in the market for a new car the next few months may be a great time to get a good buy on a Camaro or Cadillac etc.

Dave I agree with you the sky is not falling and I believe many people are waiting for some money on the hood as they have been trained to wait. I know anymore I never buy unless they are making some decent offers and it is always a matter of not if but when,.

We also need to remember this is not the GM of 2008 and it is the GM of 2016 that does not have the limits and issues of the past GM that would prohibit profits and difficulty in making move to clear lots and still make a buck doing it.

15 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

And the uniqueness is more so with Truck, which is the only application for RWD.  At least that is being sold today.

Any insight if it would make its way into the Mustang..?!?!? That'd be awesome to have the 2.3 as the base engine, 2.7 middle engine, and then 5.0 for the top engine(minus the GT350 and forthcoming GT500).

11 hours ago, daves87rs said:

- sedans/ coupes are on the decline-everyone and their grandma wants to sit up high. Hell, my old ass wants to sit up high too.....

Heck, I'm one of those... Once I got used to my Escape and not falling down into it, I love that about it. It isn't like I'm all out of shape and get winded getting in and out of a car but it's so nice to get in at about the same height as I'm standing. No step up, no step down... juuuuuust right.

8 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Just because the Impala LTZ has French stitching on the dash, it does not mean that it out-premiums the Acura...

It's fake if it is anything like the LaX. MT just pointed that out in their review of it.

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Any insight if it would make its way into the Mustang..?!?!? That'd be awesome to have the 2.3 as the base engine, 2.7 middle engine, and then 5.0 for the top engine(minus the GT350 and forthcoming GT500).

Heck, I'm one of those... Once I got used to my Escape and not falling down into it, I love that about it. It isn't like I'm all out of shape and get winded getting in and out of a car but it's so nice to get in at about the same height as I'm standing. No step up, no step down... juuuuuust right.

Yes, i miss climbing up into my truck.  Haven't got to drive it for weeks though because either the weather has been too bad to get the dogs out or there hasn't been time.  Also, i noticed getting in my brother's ATS the seats are surprisingly way lower than in the bug.  I kinda fell in them haha.  But damn the Caddy seats blow the VW seats out of the water. 

8 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Tesla Model S....Id leave that one out...

Its luxury for 1 reason only...and NOTHING at GM has an answer for...not Cadillac, not even Corvette. Maybe the Bolt. But the Model S is eons and eons ahead of the Bolt...

TECHNOLOGY.

As in automotive breakthrough waaaay forward thinking in propulsion using alternative energies that actually is redefining the way the automobile is powered. Which is a luxury component on itself.

If Tesla were to use Italian cows on their seats with uber soft plastics and funky suedes and velours  on their dashes with exotic Martian metals for their buttons and 24k gold trimmed pieces to outline their iPad displays, the price tag of the Model S would surpass that of the Space Shuttle Columbia...

The TLX...

Nobody said the TLX is luxury...its premium. By your very own definition.

The TLX spanks the Impala in quality and in build.

And even if you dont think so, the TLX has got something that GM also does not have an answer for.

Not Cadillac. Not even Corvette.

SH-AWD.

Ok...GM does have a similar system. But GM does not have PAWS.

Hey...I much prefer the Impala over the TLX...but, when trying to sling mud a certain way, try not to get it on yourself...

PS...A 2012 TL SH-AWD might be waaaay ugly, but its by far a better premium car for premium purposes than a Super Epsilon Chevy Impala LTZ.  A TLX or TL is screwed more tighter than an Impala...tighter tolerances is what I mean...

Just because the Impala LTZ has French stitching on the dash, it does not mean that it out-premiums the Acura...

 

HOWEVER...I do agree with all of your other posts in this thread...

I just felt I needed to defend the Acura and the Tesla...

Well at least this went down with the annoying videos... 

Coupla things.. yeah.. if Tesla were to spend some money on interior fitment it could instantly race into the Luxo field.. but that would be with EV powertrain or not. The EV tech in the Tesla is not more advanced than the Bolt. Its insane to say so. I could go out and build a damn EV car if I put my mind to it, but Tesla is doing it without a care in the world.. Let me explain, and like U I'm gonna go all over the place:

Tesla is an upstart company funded personally by a Billionaire from the tech industry that hasn't made one profit since its inception. It sells a vehicle that, in reality, has its core creation set waaaaaaaaaay back when GM was just a thought in Billy Durant's head. 

True innovation lies in intermingling of great engineering within the confines of every day life, while at the same time turning a profit. We can put up patents from the last 20 years and each year I think U will see GM flying high. To put up inventions and innovations of GM, a 107 year old company would truly boggle the mind. 

Electric Start, Air bag, Automatic, Catalytic Converter, Onstar, the Volt (EV1) not to mention the innovation of the Corporation in modern times by A. Sloan to name a very minute few.

The EV1 is a great example. The Tesla S employing a 60-85 kWh lithium-ion achieves a 208 to 270 mi range. The EV1's 26.7-kWh nickel-metal-hydride battery pack 100 to 140 miles. Think about that. What if.. 20 years ago.. the EV1 had of had the same AVAILABLE NOW battery tech that the Model S does? 20 Years is a long time. Innovations in the modern world have proven that it moves exponentially thru time, building on top of what has already been built innovative. In 1996 a Intel Pentium 133 MHz PC with a 400 MB hard drive would have set your soul on fire. Today I won't even get into what we have just walking around in our cell phones.Technology continuously evolved by building on top of what had already been done. Had the Electric Car not been killed in 1996.. I truly believe we would be capable of 1000 mile EVS. GM would have lead that charge

The EV1 could go from 0 to 60 mph in nine seconds, while Car and Driver tested the 2011 Nissan Leaf SL to do it in 10 seconds. Ironically the NiMh battery powered EV1 had a longer range than the current Nissan leaf. BOttom line is that GM balances its innovations more to the market than the science fair types that must have their projects front and center. While Tesla is essentially nothing but a toy car concept brought to life-size proportions, 20 years after GM did it and killed it due to the market not being a viable one due to gas prices at the time being less than $1.

Point is I dunno what U are getting at. Is this faith in Tesla because of its ability to go 0-60 in 2.8.. or because of its range??? If its the 0-60 times then I think some where some one missed the point of these things. Furthermore if GM... Ford.. Toyota or the like wanted to do a supercar for $100K using EV only driveline and lose money day after day.. not even being able to, due to not having buffers (GM can lose a dollar or two on BOLT because GM will make a ton on the Silverado/Tahoe etc) they could.

SH-AWD: 

Please stop. SH-AWD is great.. but it is not that different than or better than Quatrro, XDrive, Haldex, or GM's essentially modified Haldex system. Acura touts it because Honda doesn't provide them with any other viable solution to lack of RWD. Just to focus on the GM system.. in the CT6 for example.. coupled with the RW-Steering one would certainly see what I'm talking about. The ability for torque to be pushed to different corners.. or rear, back and forth has been around for almost a decade. Hell Saab was kicking it back in 2008 with the XWD system in the TurboX. 

TLX vs Impala: 

What the Eff are U ranting about? I have my opinion on the car and that's that. The LUXURY of the car leaves much to be desired. The PREMIUM of the car does not.. same with the Impala.. but there lies a problem with that one. In terms of TOLERANCES.. and being "screwed together tighter" what proof do U have that the Super-Epsilon in any iteration is screwed together less tight than the Acura.. let alone versus one another? Mud slung on me?? Shit talked by U.. and being regurgitated then swallowed.. REPEAT over and over again

37 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It's fake if it is anything like the LaX. MT just pointed that out in their review of it.

Again.. WRONG. I really wish U didn't LIVE on every word that MT types then blanketing every car with their words.  I literally went outside and found an are of my dash to "pick" so as to not let anyone see the shredding ..Its seems pretty real to me.

I will admit that I didn't get into the LaX recently and start picking the threads while the sales guy was talking. Again.. maybe GM saw the pointlessness of having real stitching in a $30-50K car (or any car for that matter..) but I dunno.. I will head up to the Buick dealer to commit vandalism on the interior just to do what U don't.. speak from  first hand experience and not what Motor Trend told me.

9 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Again.. WRONG. I really wish U didn't LIVE on every word that MT types then blanketing every car with their words.  I literally went outside and found an are of my dash to "pick" so as to not let anyone see the shredding ..Its seems pretty real to me.

I will admit that I didn't get into the LaX recently and start picking the threads while the sales guy was talking. Again.. maybe GM saw the pointlessness of having real stitching in a $30-50K car (or any car for that matter..) but I dunno.. I will head up to the Buick dealer to commit vandalism on the interior just to do what U don't.. speak from  first hand experience and not what Motor Trend told me.

Maybe if you were just as less critical of Acura as you are of your beloved Impala LTZ...we wouldn't be having this STUPID, CHILDISH, IDIOTIC, GRADE SCHOOL CONVERSATION!!!

PS: I LOVE THE IMPALA LTZ MORE THAN ANYTHING ITS THIS PRICE RANGE!!!!

Yet I could clearly see it has flaws...just like no other car YOU mentioned...

YEAH YEAH...Its American...

Yo...I perhaps LOVE AMERICAN CARS MORE than YOU!!!

Difference is I aint oblivious to their flaws nor do I try too justify them...making you lose credibility when the grown ups talk...

I get it Casa....I had those very same conversations YOU have in the 1990s when everything Japanese was golden and everything American was rotten and EVERYBODY was saying so...

In 2016...that is not the case...American cars get JUSTIFIED criticism today...which is not much...

Look...you find faults in Acura when they don't even exists ala GM in the 1990s...

24 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Again.. WRONG. I really wish U didn't LIVE on every word that MT types then blanketing every car with their words.  I literally went outside and found an are of my dash to "pick" so as to not let anyone see the shredding ..Its seems pretty real to me.

I will admit that I didn't get into the LaX recently and start picking the threads while the sales guy was talking. Again.. maybe GM saw the pointlessness of having real stitching in a $30-50K car (or any car for that matter..) but I dunno.. I will head up to the Buick dealer to commit vandalism on the interior just to do what U don't.. speak from  first hand experience and not what Motor Trend told me.

Good lord, man. You think they have any reason to make that stuff up???

" It also took a lot of heat for fake wood that wouldn’t fool a toddler and fake stitching on the dash top that isn’t even carried around the corners, much less actually joining anything."

LaX Review

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Good lord, man. You think they have any reason to make that stuff up???

" It also took a lot of heat for fake wood that wouldn’t fool a toddler and fake stitching on the dash top that isn’t even carried around the corners, much less actually joining anything."

LaX Review

I checked Buick's website, no mention of all about the "wood" trim.  If it was real they'd be touting that sh@t lol.

19 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Maybe if you were just as less critical of Acura as you are of your beloved Impala LTZ...we wouldn't be having this STUPID, CHILDISH, IDIOTIC, GRADE SCHOOL CONVERSATION!!!

 

PS: I LOVE THE IMPALA LTZ MORE THAN ANYTHING ITS THIS PRICE RANGE!!!!

Yet I could clearly see it has flaws...just like no other car YOU mentioned...

YEAH YEAH...Its American...

Yo...I perhaps LOVE AMERICAN CARS MORE than YOU!!!

Difference is I aint oblivious to their flaws nor do I try too justify them...making you lose credibility when the grown ups talk...

I get it Casa....I had those very same conversations YOU have in the 1990s when everything Japanese was golden and everything American was rotten and EVERYBODY was saying so...

In 2016...that is not the case...American cars get JUSTIFIED criticism today...which is not much...

Look...you find faults in Acura when they don't even exists ala GM in the 1990s...

 

 

The problem I have is that for some reason U have taken some offense to what I said about ONE effin car.. that wasn't even high on my list of cars to talk down about. In other words the Acura being included wasn't even a thought.. Its a car that I drove.. its a car that I was inside of.. its a car that left me with an impression of "meh." That's it. I didn't say I hated the car.. but for some reason U swooped in and started defending it like it was even a factor in my day. Move on Brah... 

15 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Again.. WRONG. I really wish U didn't LIVE on every word that MT types then blanketing every car with their words.  I literally went outside and found an are of my dash to "pick" so as to not let anyone see the shredding ..Its seems pretty real to me.

I will admit that I didn't get into the LaX recently and start picking the threads while the sales guy was talking. Again.. maybe GM saw the pointlessness of having real stitching in a $30-50K car (or any car for that matter..) but I dunno.. I will head up to the Buick dealer to commit vandalism on the interior just to do what U don't.. speak from  first hand experience and not what Motor Trend told me.

30 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Well at least this went down with the annoying videos... 

Coupla things.. yeah.. if Tesla were to spend some money on interior fitment it could instantly race into the Luxo field.. but that would be with EV powertrain or not. The EV tech in the Tesla is not more advanced than the Bolt. Its insane to say so. I could go out and build a damn EV car if I put my mind to it, but Tesla is doing it without a care in the world.. Let me explain, and like U I'm gonna go all over the place:

Tesla is an upstart company funded personally by a Billionaire from the tech industry that hasn't made one profit since its inception. It sells a vehicle that, in reality, has its core creation set waaaaaaaaaay back when GM was just a thought in Billy Durant's head. 

True innovation lies in intermingling of great engineering within the confines of every day life, while at the same time turning a profit. We can put up patents from the last 20 years and each year I think U will see GM flying high. To put up inventions and innovations of GM, a 107 year old company would truly boggle the mind. 

Electric Start, Air bag, Automatic, Catalytic Converter, Onstar, the Volt (EV1) not to mention the innovation of the Corporation in modern times by A. Sloan to name a very minute few.

The EV1 is a great example. The Tesla S employing a 60-85 kWh lithium-ion achieves a 208 to 270 mi range. The EV1's 26.7-kWh nickel-metal-hydride battery pack 100 to 140 miles. Think about that. What if.. 20 years ago.. the EV1 had of had the same AVAILABLE NOW battery tech that the Model S does? 20 Years is a long time. Innovations in the modern world have proven that it moves exponentially thru time, building on top of what has already been built innovative. In 1996 a Intel Pentium 133 MHz PC with a 400 MB hard drive would have set your soul on fire. Today I won't even get into what we have just walking around in our cell phones.Technology continuously evolved by building on top of what had already been done. Had the Electric Car not been killed in 1996.. I truly believe we would be capable of 1000 mile EVS. GM would have lead that charge

The EV1 could go from 0 to 60 mph in nine seconds, while Car and Driver tested the 2011 Nissan Leaf SL to do it in 10 seconds. Ironically the NiMh battery powered EV1 had a longer range than the current Nissan leaf. BOttom line is that GM balances its innovations more to the market than the science fair types that must have their projects front and center. While Tesla is essentially nothing but a toy car concept brought to life-size proportions, 20 years after GM did it and killed it due to the market not being a viable one due to gas prices at the time being less than $1.

Point is I dunno what U are getting at. Is this faith in Tesla because of its ability to go 0-60 in 2.8.. or because of its range??? If its the 0-60 times then I think some where some one missed the point of these things. Furthermore if GM... Ford.. Toyota or the like wanted to do a supercar for $100K using EV only driveline and lose money day after day.. not even being able to, due to not having buffers (GM can lose a dollar or two on BOLT because GM will make a ton on the Silverado/Tahoe etc) they could.

 

SH-AWD: 

Please stop. SH-AWD is great.. but it is not that different than or better than Quatrro, XDrive, Haldex, or GM's essentially modified Haldex system. Acura touts it because Honda doesn't provide them with any other viable solution to lack of RWD. Just to focus on the GM system.. in the CT6 for example.. coupled with the RW-Steering one would certainly see what I'm talking about. The ability for torque to be pushed to different corners.. or rear, back and forth has been around for almost a decade. Hell Saab was kicking it back in 2008 with the XWD system in the TurboX. 

 

TLX vs Impala: 

What the Eff are U ranting about? I have my opinion on the car and that's that. The LUXURY of the car leaves much to be desired. The PREMIUM of the car does not.. same with the Impala.. but there lies a problem with that one. In terms of TOLERANCES.. and being "screwed together tighter" what proof do U have that the Super-Epsilon in any iteration is screwed together less tight than the Acura.. let alone versus one another? Mud slung on me?? $h! talked by U.. and being regurgitated then swallowed.. REPEAT over and over again

Bla bla bla...

1. I said that GM has a similar AWD system...learn to read...

2. EV1 was killed off...that is too bad...

Gazillionnaire Musk is doing something that GM shoulda done...hey...don't balme Musk and the Model S for that shyte...

As of now...EV technology bonus points goes to Tesla...DEAL WITH IT!

3. TECHNOLOGY...its a component of LUXURY...

In 2016...THE LARGEST component of luxury Id say...

When Star Wars and Star Trek and Minority Report technology is obsolete and better and faster tech exists in the hands of 12 year olds in 2016 and Chevrolet Cavaliers come with cow hided seats...TECHNOLOGY is where its at for luxury...

LED headlights were a thing...replaced XENON headlights...well...even LED lights are not hat special anymore...my rant is all over the place because well you...have a right to defend GM the way you do...and I AGREE WITH YOU...but in 2016, it aint necessary to go to war anymore...

4. My opinion on the TL and the TLX are on the same level as yours on the Impala LTZ...

DEAL WITH IT!!!

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Good lord, man. You think they have any reason to make that stuff up???

" It also took a lot of heat for fake wood that wouldn’t fool a toddler and fake stitching on the dash top that isn’t even carried around the corners, much less actually joining anything."

LaX Review

Obviously U haven't been reading MT for as long as I have. I can tell U that very often they don;t necessarily make stuff up.. but they do over blow or sensationalize shit that doesn't even matter. They do some time show blind bias too. Like the legendary time they rated the Toyota Matrix as a 5 star.. but rated the Pontiac Vibe as a 3.5. This was a MECHANICAL analysis.. and everyone who read it stood up and called BULLSHIT on Angus McKenzie.

and GOOD LORD is right. Try walking away from your computer for an hour.. mozying down to Buick and checking it out for yourself.. and while U are at it.. which is the REAL reason why I responded to your post.. go to the Chevy dealer too and make sure that your blanket statement is correct on whether or not the Impala, sitting on a different platform (yup) and separated by 3 years is employing this "fake" stitching as well. MY THING IS PROOF.. FIRST HAND.

15 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Bla bla bla...

 

1. I said that GM has a similar AWD system...learn to read...

2. EV1 was killed off...that is too bad...

Gazillionnaire Musk is doing something that GM shoulda done...hey...don't balme Musk and the Model S for that shyte...

As of now...EV technology bonus points goes to Tesla...DEAL WITH IT!

3. TECHNOLOGY...its a component of LUXURY...

In 2016...THE LARGEST component of luxury Id say...

When Star Wars and Star Trek and Minority Report technology is obsolete and better and faster tech exists in the hands of 12 year olds in 2016 and Chevrolet Cavaliers come with cow hided seats...TECHNOLOGY is where its at for luxury...

LED headlights were a thing...replaced XENON headlights...well...even LED lights are not hat special anymore...my rant is all over the place because well you...have a right to defend GM the way you do...and I AGREE WITH YOU...but in 2016, it aint necessary to go to war anymore...

4. My opinion on the TL and the TLX are on the same level as yours on the Impala LTZ...

DEAL WITH IT!!!

15 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Bla bla bla...

 

1. I said that GM has a similar AWD system...learn to read...

2. EV1 was killed off...that is too bad...

Gazillionnaire Musk is doing something that GM shoulda done...hey...don't balme Musk and the Model S for that shyte...

As of now...EV technology bonus points goes to Tesla...DEAL WITH IT!

3. TECHNOLOGY...its a component of LUXURY...

In 2016...THE LARGEST component of luxury Id say...

When Star Wars and Star Trek and Minority Report technology is obsolete and better and faster tech exists in the hands of 12 year olds in 2016 and Chevrolet Cavaliers come with cow hided seats...TECHNOLOGY is where its at for luxury...

LED headlights were a thing...replaced XENON headlights...well...even LED lights are not hat special anymore...my rant is all over the place because well you...have a right to defend GM the way you do...and I AGREE WITH YOU...but in 2016, it aint necessary to go to war anymore...

4. My opinion on the TL and the TLX are on the same level as yours on the Impala LTZ...

DEAL WITH IT!!!

Me learn to read??  Here is your quote:

Quote

 

And even if you dont think so, the TLX has got something that GM also does not have an answer for.

Not Cadillac. Not even Corvette.

SH-AWD.

Ok...GM does have a similar system. But GM does not have PAWS

 

Your focus on SH-AWD after saying GM does not have an answer for paints a picture that it some who is BETTER due to PAWS. Its not.. so why'd U type it. 

2) Why did GM have to mass market an EV when EV were basically not necessary from a consumer point of view. Furthermore U can parade Musk all U want.. but I don't find anything admirable about his company completely existing due to carbon credits.

3) Then the Bolt is a LUXURY car.. It has the same type of tech and done so at literally 1/3 the price.. with better support.

4) The TL and TLX are on the same level as my Impala. We agree.. that a Chevy.. is on the same level as a supposed luxury car make by Honda. Yes.. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Considering the Corvette, Camaro, Tahoe/Subur all fetch prices well north of almost everything at Acura save the NSX.. I'd say that Chevy is now a bonafide Luxury car maker as well. U'RE THE BEST 

28 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Obviously U haven't been reading MT for as long as I have. I can tell U that very often they don;t necessarily make stuff up.. but they do over blow or sensationalize $h! that doesn't even matter. They do some time show blind bias too. Like the legendary time they rated the Toyota Matrix as a 5 star.. but rated the Pontiac Vibe as a 3.5. This was a MECHANICAL analysis.. and everyone who read it stood up and called BULL$h! on Angus McKenzie.

and GOOD LORD is right. Try walking away from your computer for an hour.. mozying down to Buick and checking it out for yourself.. and while U are at it.. which is the REAL reason why I responded to your post.. go to the Chevy dealer too and make sure that your blanket statement is correct on whether or not the Impala, sitting on a different platform (yup) and separated by 3 years is employing this "fake" stitching as well. MY THING IS PROOF.. FIRST HAND.

Yeah, they show so much blind bias when they award GM products awards and even at the beginning of the review they said how much they liked the previous LaX. I love it when fanboys always claim X magazine is so biased when they award all sorts of manufacturers all sorts of awards. Ford wins, GM wins, MB wins, BMW wins, VW wins, Nissan wins, Toyota wins, Honda, FCA... the list goes on and on but they're biased.. you're right.

Maybe the previous gen used real stitching. Even worse to know they downgraded to molded plastic. How classy of them.

45 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

 

Me learn to read??  Here is your quote:

Your focus on SH-AWD after saying GM does not have an answer for paints a picture that it some who is BETTER due to PAWS. Its not.. so why'd U type it. 

 

2) Why did GM have to mass market an EV when EV were basically not necessary from a consumer point of view. Furthermore U can parade Musk all U want.. but I don't find anything admirable about his company completely existing due to carbon credits.

 

3) Then the Bolt is a LUXURY car.. It has the same type of tech and done so at literally 1/3 the price.. with better support.

4) The TL and TLX are on the same level as my Impala. We agree.. that a Chevy.. is on the same level as a supposed luxury car make by Honda. Yes.. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Considering the Corvette, Camaro, Tahoe/Subur all fetch prices well north of almost everything at Acura save the NSX.. I'd say that Chevy is now a bonafide Luxury car maker as well. U'RE THE BEST 

 

 

 

Go read again bro...

I said that GM had a similar system...maybe you glanced over that so easily because you were frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog...

Better support the Bolt has...maybe...in your area

But my partner with his Model S in the Montreal region has excellent support...

We do agree...on Acura...

Acura was NEVER a LUXURY brand...just premium..

The Impala...in 1958 all the way to 1968-1969 was ALWAYS a PREMIUM car...

Its just that GM ;lost its way sometime in the 1970s...especially in the 1980s and 1990s and the W-Body Impala was pitiful...

The Acura brand was always premium on the level of an Oldsmobile was....minus Oldsmobile of the 1990s...that is when Acura took over...

So...when we talk like big boys...you see that we are no different you and I...

PAWS....take that system as you want to...its tech that makes the TLX handle better...remember the NSX has it too...along with 3 electric motors....

Hey...I love me the Corvette a helluva lot more than the NSX...but you gots to admit...the NSX like the 1st gen...its a techno tour de force...not that the Vette aint...but you cant piss on the NSX...

48 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yeah, they show so much blind bias when they award GM products awards and even at the beginning of the review they said how much they liked the previous LaX. I love it when fanboys always claim X magazine is so biased when they award all sorts of manufacturers all sorts of awards. Ford wins, GM wins, MB wins, BMW wins, VW wins, Nissan wins, Toyota wins, Honda, FCA... the list goes on and on but they're biased.. you're right.

Maybe the previous gen used real stitching. Even worse to know they downgraded to molded plastic. How classy of them.

Riiight. The awards situations are a wee be different in the fact that they are not the BIASED point of view of ONE writer as many of the reviews are.. good or bad. The Awards are committee situations that are consensus or multiple people.

As to the stitching... your condescending throw off means zero to me.. The overall car, LaX, is simply better than the last generation. If suddenly real stitching that didn't even exist in S-Class a generation or two ago is now the measure by which Premium cars are measured then I would say that we are becoming waaaaaaaaaay to spoiled. Either way.. I'm still waiting for YOUR OWN independent test of any of these cars... otherwise its just U smacking those lips son son.

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Riiight. The awards situations are a wee be different in the fact that they are not the BIASED point of view of ONE writer as many of the reviews are.. good or bad. The Awards are committee situations that are consensus or multiple people.

As to the stitching... your condescending throw off means zero to me.. The overall car, LaX, is simply better than the last generation. If suddenly real stitching that didn't even exist in S-Class a generation or two ago is now the measure by which Premium cars are measured then I would say that we are becoming waaaaaaaaaay to spoiled. Either way.. I'm still waiting for YOUR OWN independent test of any of these cars... otherwise its just U smacking those lips son son.

I'm not the one making a "premium" car that passed on stitching and went forward with molded plastic. Yeah it's a better overall car. But it didn't take any strides towards "premium" with fake stitching.

You literally want me to go to my GM dealer and take a picture to prove this to you(because you only trust what magazines say if they're playing the GM fiddle)? Hell no. I made the statement(which was from a reputable source), you disputed it. You're the one who's in denial here, not I.

It sucks that there are people out there like you and Wings because it turns people off of brands and companies for no good reason other than not wanting anything to do with a fanboy.

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I'm not the one making a "premium" car that passed on stitching and went forward with molded plastic. Yeah it's a better overall car. But it didn't take any strides towards "premium" with fake stitching.

You literally want me to go to my GM dealer and take a picture to prove this to you(because you only trust what magazines say if they're playing the GM fiddle)? Hell no. I made the statement(which was from a reputable source), you disputed it. You're the one who's in denial here, not I.

It sucks that there are people out there like you and Wings because it turns people off of brands and companies for no good reason other than not wanting anything to do with a fanboy.

Showing how WEEEEEAK U are.  I can't stand Wings but if I like a Ford,  as it is American,  I'll buy a Ford.  Second...  I always find it laughable when some clown reading the mags reads  one word...  One negative word..  And they run with it for all time.  Pathetic.  Smfh

On 12/20/2016 at 11:23 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

SUV/CUV doesn't matter.... Cadillac has 3.... period.  You can't say that Benz has X number while counting the GLS and then turn around and say the Escalade doesn't count because it is body on frame.

If we count Escalde and ESV as two, then GLC and GLE coupe count, so that gives Benz 7 crossover and SUV, there was a long wheelbase G-wagen spied would could be interesting.  I agree that SUV, SAV, CUV, whatever doesn't matter, people like tall boxes on wheels, that is what is selling. Cadillac needs more crossovers desperately.  And where is Cadillac's sports car?  It wouldn't sell in any volume but what legit luxury car company doesn't make a sports car?

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If we count Escalde and ESV as two, then GLC and GLE coupe count, so that gives Benz 7 crossover and SUV, there was a long wheelbase G-wagen spied would could be interesting.  I agree that SUV, SAV, CUV, whatever doesn't matter, people like tall boxes on wheels, that is what is selling. Cadillac needs more crossovers desperately.  And where is Cadillac's sports car?  It wouldn't sell in any volume but what legit luxury car company doesn't make a sports car?

I agree.  Cadillac's excuse  is the Corvette existing.  It's bullshit.  The C7 would have been the perfect basis for the return of the XLR.  

@smk4565 @Cmicasa the Great

Cadillac needs NO sports car. Cadillac needs to play to its strengths....Historical and current.

V Series cars are sports cars...and they are fantastic. However, big arrogant land yachts are what they are primarily known for and that is why the Escalade sells so well for the last 16-20 years.

 A sports car based on a Vette of some sorts or bespoke like the Cien would be great....

But...an SUV ABOVE the Escalade, a Ciel and an El Miraj 4 door and coupe would benefit Cadillac MORE than a Cien would and in my opinion an UBER Slade, Ciel and El Miraj should be brought to product waaaay before a Cien...

The V series cars are sports car enough for Cadillac. Let us no forget...the ATS V coupe is a TURBO V6 Camaro....maybe the ATS V should have that V8 as well...

Maybe a 100% electric battery powered 300 mile plus range Tesla Model S killer should also be in production before a Cien...

Cadillac is Cadillac.

Cadillac aint Acura to spawn a NSX.

Cadillac aint Mercedes Benz to spawn a SLS gullwing sports car or SLR.

Cadillac is Cadillac.

Known for Eldorados...

Known for Escalades.

Known for the STS. When the STS was a good thing about Cadillac.

known for Devilles and Sevilles when those were a good thing about Cadillac.

Known for the CTS-V.

Its OK to play to your strengths...

BMW made the M1 and failed.

Sure Audi made the R8 and succeeded...but Cadillac made the XLR and failed...

Cadillac is making the V Series cars...and are not exactly flying off the shelves...

Suggesting that a luxury brand absolutely needs a high performance option to be relevant or superior.....is like suggesting that a truck line needs a high performance off road option, to be taken serious as truck brand.  Completely ridiculous.

That said, when the efff will GM at least try to compete with Raptor

3 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I agree.  Cadillac's excuse  is the Corvette existing.  It's bull$h!.  The C7 would have been the perfect basis for the return of the XLR.  

Or why can't they build a car better than the Corvette?  Audi, Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren, Lamborghini, and Mercedes do.  Even the NSX is pretty good now, at least Acura has something in the game, Lexus did for a hot second, but it dead in the water again with Lincoln and Infiniti with no sports car.

I will help settle another argument, NOTHING at Ford or Chevy is "Premium".  Buick is "Premium" Lincoln is probably more Premium than a true luxury brand, but I'd go so far to say Lincoln is Luxury since they stepped it up with the Ecoboost and better material interiors, lately. 

56 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Or why can't they build a car better than the Corvette?  Audi, Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren, Lamborghini, and Mercedes do.  Even the NSX is pretty good now, at least Acura has something in the game, Lexus did for a hot second, but it dead in the water again with Lincoln and Infiniti with no sports car.

I will help settle another argument, NOTHING at Ford or Chevy is "Premium".  Buick is "Premium" Lincoln is probably more Premium than a true luxury brand, but I'd go so far to say Lincoln is Luxury since they stepped it up with the Ecoboost and better material interiors, lately. 

1. better than a Corvette for a GM car for GM to build?

The Corvette is as good as it gets compared to supercars from Ferrari and company...in some cases a Vette is better, in other cases on par...it dont matter

There is a Chevy bow tie in all of the Vette's logos since day 1...

Whether we like it or not...a Vette was, is and forever will be a Chevy...

A better Vette is just that...a better Vette. Z06 or ZR1 or ZL1 or by any other nomenclature...a better Vette is just another trim level above a base Corvette which belongs to Chevy...

If anything...Corvette is ready to become its own brand, not be rebranded as a Cadillac or worse...badge engineered as one...

Cadillac does NOT need to be like Acura or Lexus...

Cadillac is Cadillac... Cadillac aint Porsche or Ferrari...

Cadillac is Cadillac...

Mercedes Benz could pull that off...because Mercedes Benz in their past had sports cars...in the 1930s.

In the 1950s...Mercedes Benz had exotic sports cars...

Mercedes Benz also has racing pedigrees that has surpassed Porsche....

Formula One racing is a huuuuuge thing for Mercedes Benz...

Chevrolet does GM's racing...Pontiac, Buick and Oldsmobile too...2 out of the last 3 brands I mentioned are dead and Buick gave up on racing a while back....Cadillac has hardly raced in their 110 or so year history...

That is why the Corvette shall remain not only Chevy's top dog in racing pedigree technology, but GM's face in racing...

Its funny to me that we want to shove Cadillac in a racing program a force a sports car on them...yet we frown upon Corvette being its own brand...yet giving Cadillac a sports car is more of a stretch marketing wise than a Corvette becoming its own brand...

And with all that said...a Corvette is not premium...its a blue collar car...

Boy....I just threw a monkey wrench and muddled the premium-luxury-mainstream debate  even further...

Ill go further muddling this topic...

Something that I already did make a thread on...

https://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/topic/86783-what-does-cadillac-mean-to-you/#comment-788705

so...if an Impala is premium...or not...and the Cadillac ATS clearly does NOT a Cadillac make...is a Cadillac ATS premium or is it luxury?

To boot, Cadillac in many ways aint exactly all that luxury...its a tad better than Lincoln and Lincoln is premium frolicking into lux territory while Cadillac steps inside the luxury sand box, but in many ways is afraid to get its hands and knees dirty with sand...

so...an Acura TLX is above Cadillac ATS or is it below?

because as we know...Chevrolet has Silverado trim levels  that out price most Acuras...

yet...said Silverados also out price a Cadillac ATS...

yes Casa...in that link I posted, you called me crazy, yet my though process is straight as an arrow and I have NEVER strayed from my logic...it has always been consistent...

You on the other hand, because of bias...are all over the place....which is fine...its great to have passions...

But please...your opinions on premium and luxury dont really mean much...because as much as your first hand experiences count....mine count as much as yours....at least Im a tad more even keeled than you are...