General Motors To Begin Testing Autonomous Vehicles In Michigan Immedately

Have not seen one yet...

Very Cool  

While not wanting a self driving auto myself, glad to see this is happening as far too many idiots are on the road causing trouble. Better to have the computer drive them.

Except they were just SHUT DOWN for running a red light in San Fransisco. 

Extensive testing in mock cities like Ford has constructed should be conducted for a long time, before automakers start endangering lives in real cities with driverless cars.  What angers me, is that they are all rushing to market to steal headlines.   They will deserve every lawsuit they get.  I just hope nobody is injured in the process.

http://fortune.com/2016/07/20/michigan-self-driving-car-testing-center/

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Except they were just SHUT DOWN for running a red light in San Fransisco. 

More so for not having a permit to do it legally.

51 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Extensive testing in mock cities like Ford has constructed should be conducted for a long time, before automakers start endangering lives in real cities with driverless cars.  What angers me, is that they are all rushing to market to steal headlines.   They will deserve every lawsuit they get.  I just hope nobody is injured in the process.

 

 

 

 

 

http://fortune.com/2016/07/20/michigan-self-driving-car-testing-center/

 

They are not just testing in "mock" cities though (which I agree with for the record). From Ford's media page,

"This year, Ford will triple its autonomous vehicle test fleet to be the largest test fleet of any automaker – bringing the number to about 30 self-driving Fusion Hybrid sedans on the roads in California, Arizona and Michigan, with plans to triple it again next year."

They have been testing self driving Fusions on regular roads in and around the Phoenix area.

I personally think self driving cars are a disaster in the making, also for the record. I'm just going to leave it at that.

I really do not see this working out well for a while yet. The issue really is where you mix normal cars with self driven.

Self driven cars are programed by computer people and they do not think like a deviate that thinks it is fun to make radical moves with is pick up to make the self driving car shut off or swerve in some radical way for a laugh.

The other issue is liabilities. While this could reduce deaths the problems that will come from this is liabilities. If a car makes a mistake is it the owners fault? Is it a fault of the company that made the car?  Is it the fault of the programmer? Etc.

The cold harsh reality is people will still die in crashes and the liability will be moved to a MFG and just how willing are they going to be in this to accept the responsibility? The Tesla death was only the first in a semi autonomous system the full on is coming as well others.
 

The details are where this gets bogged down.

Now I do see a lot of use with this even to a higher degree than we have now. Farms, Mines etc where large equipment has a set path and set plan in a controls environment could work with little interference and little liability. This  will be where the most wide spread use will be.

Till then we will only see enhanced system that will require the driver to remain engaged with the car. Their hands may be off the wheel but they will not be reading a paper or on the phone as they will be required to remain engaged in the car by facial recognition.

10 hours ago, dfelt said:

Very Cool  

While not wanting a self driving auto myself, glad to see this is happening as far too many idiots are on the road causing trouble. Better to have the computer drive them.

Sadly, not sure it's going to help the stupid ones....

Thinking the bus is going to be their choice ride!

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

They are not just testing in "mock" cities though (which I agree with for the record). From Ford's media page,

"This year, Ford will triple its autonomous vehicle test fleet to be the largest test fleet of any automaker – bringing the number to about 30 self-driving Fusion Hybrid sedans on the roads in California, Arizona and Michigan, with plans to triple it again next year."

 

They have been testing self driving Fusions on regular roads in and around the Phoenix area.

 

I personally think self driving cars are a disaster in the making, also for the record. I'm just going to leave it at that.

Yes, Ford is ALSO testing autonomous cars in cites concurrently....complete with co-pilots.  Big difference.

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Extensive testing in mock cities like Ford has constructed should be conducted for a long time, before automakers start endangering lives in real cities with driverless cars.  What angers me, is that they are all rushing to market to steal headlines.   They will deserve every lawsuit they get.  I just hope nobody is injured in the process.

 

 

 

 

 

http://fortune.com/2016/07/20/michigan-self-driving-car-testing-center/

 

Yep, I agree with you there! I think this will never fly well for two reasons:

1- There needs to be at least HALF of these cars out there to make it work. Stuff like this works better in a controlled enviroment.

2- Stupid folk- You're going to still have the "hold my beer and watch this" crowd, along with the folks who just laugh at the road rules. An increase in public transportation for these folks would help too.....

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

Yes, Ford is ALSO testing autonomous cars in cites concurrently....complete with co-pilots.  Big difference.

GM is also using co-pilots and my initial point is that Ford is also testing in the cities here and not just their mock city in Michigan, which in case you missed it the first time, I think is a far better idea (the mock city part).

"DETROIT (AP) — General Motors has started testing fully autonomous vehicles on public roads around its technical center in suburban Detroit  

The announcement comes just one week after Gov. Rick Snyder signed legislation that allows the cars to be tested on public roads without a driver or a steering wheel. But the automaker says that for now, it will have human backup drivers for its fleet of autonomous Chevrolet Bolt electric cars."

6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Except they were just SHUT DOWN for running a red light in San Fransisco. 

Wrong Twiddle Dee, That was Uber with their Volvo running the red lights.

good. these vehicles are already far safer than manned ones so it's beneficial to real-world test them to assuage the public's fears. 

the faster they're out and about, the better. 

43 minutes ago, bigpoolog said:

good. these vehicles are already far safer than manned ones so it's beneficial to real-world test them to assuage the public's fears. 

the faster they're out and about, the better. 

But what happens when a bird takes a BIG Poo on the auto blocking the camera's vision and sensors. Who is gonna get out and wipe it?

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

But what happens when a big takes a BIG Poo on the auto blocking the camera's vision and sensors. Who is gonna get out and wipe it?

michigan is shitty but not that shitty

Here is a list of companies working on autonomous.

This is scary.  Hell, every GPS or phone I have ever mapped with, all give me wrong directions all the time.  How on earth will we come to rely on this stuff. Far too much can go wrong.  

If I was not clear before, let me clarify.  I think this technology should be thoroughly tested in closed tracks and mock cities for as long as it needs to work out bugs.  What we don't need is companies like GM rushing things for headlines, heading into auto show circuits to steal headlines.  EVERYONE should take their time developing, but competitive pressure ensures that will not be the case.

Wait, how is displaying upcoming tech at auto shows "rushing things"?  Furthermore, GM is far from first to show off the tech, though they've obviously been working on it for years.

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Wait, how is displaying upcoming tech at auto shows "rushing things"?  Furthermore, GM is far from first to show off the tech, though they've obviously been working on it for years.

If they waited until the autoshow, it gets lost in all the other stories.  They clearly want to get it out ASAP.  Oldest trick in the book

7 hours ago, dfelt said:

Wrong Twiddle Dee, That was Uber with their Volvo running the red lights.

Excuse me Chickle Wickle?  I was talking about self driving cars in general.

2 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

If they waited until the autoshow, it gets lost in all the other stories.  They clearly want to get it out ASAP.  Oldest trick in the book

Detroit auto show is rapidly losing relevance. It's down to one day of car debuts this year. 

21 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Detroit auto show is rapidly losing relevance. It's down to one day of car debuts this year. 

I  gather the Los Angeles and New York auto shows are gaining steam and stealing Detroit's thunder?

Maybe even SEMA with maybe the electronics show Las Vegas has?

LA, SEMA, CES, Texas State Fair, and the Chinese shows have been growing. Chicago has shrunk dramatically to the point were I now have to consider each year whether it is worth the travel to cover it in person. 

34 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Detroit auto show is rapidly losing relevance. It's down to one day of car debuts this year. 

Still one of the biggest in NA, and Detroit's home town.  Very important.

Im gonna guess that Beijing will be THE auto show that the world watches in the near future.

One question.

Are the Geneva and Paris shows relevant as they used to be or are they losing steam like Detroit?

Back to the Bolt and autonomous driving...

My opinion...as much as I love electric vehicles...I HATE THIS AUTONOMOUS TECHNOLOGY!!!

Although I do see how beneficial it will be for humanity going forward.

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

Still one of the biggest in NA, and Detroit's home town.  Very important.

Of course, it will always be one of the big 4, but just looking at the schedule, it now has fewer releases than LA just did.  If 2017 NYC stays the same size as it was in 2016 then that means Detroit has fallen to 3rd out of 4. It could just be product cadence by the manufacturers (which I suspect is most likely) or is could be a longer term trend. I've been doing this long enough to remember when it started Sunday afternoon, continued 6:30am Monday, and basically didn't stop till Tuesday evening.

^It also seems like more automakers are doing standalone events.

5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Of course, it will always be one of the big 4, but just looking at the schedule, it now has fewer releases than LA just did.  If 2017 NYC stays the same size as it was in 2016 then that means Detroit has fallen to 3rd out of 4. It could just be product cadence by the manufacturers (which I suspect is most likely) or is could be a longer term trend. I've been doing this long enough to remember when it started Sunday afternoon, continued 6:30am Monday, and basically didn't stop till Tuesday evening.

Well, I have been attending the Detroit show pretty much my whole life. Shorty after it went International in the late 80's I started attending almost every year, rarely missing a year.  There has bee some lapses by some automakers on occasion.  But the last 2 years have seen a steady increase in attendance, highest since 2003.  Should easily continue to increase, as they recently completed Cobo's remodeling.  And now with the entire city on a major comeback as well.  I think this will all weigh heavy on Automaker's decision on which show to introduce new models.

The more and more I read into autonomous technology and the challenges it will face, the more skeptical I am that it will ever take full foothold. There's too many variables and liability issues that need to be worked out.

No matter how good these things become at operating in a controlled environment, once you throw a large percentage of human driven vehicles into the mix, it's a whole different story. I also highly question if people are going to trust a computer to make possible life-or-death decisions for them.

If an autonomous car has to choose between mowing down two pedestrians or stuffing itself and occupants into a jersey barrier, which is it going to choose? We know what the average driver is going to do. It's not impossible, just many, many variables, as I said. 

10 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Well, I have been attending the Detroit show pretty much my whole life. Shorty after it went International in the late 80's I started attending almost every year, rarely missing a year.  There has bee some lapses by some automakers on occasion.  But the last 2 years have seen a steady increase in attendance, highest since 2003.  Should easily continue to increase, as they recently completed Cobo's remodeling.  And now with the entire city on a major comeback as well.  I think this will all weigh heavy on Automaker's decision on which show to introduce new models.

Attendance is not what I am talking about.  The number and importance of the debuts being shown there is dwindling.  The Pittsburgh Auto Show is fairly well attended by the public also... but we get zero debuts, so there is practically no media participation, no headlines, no reason for me to even go. 

2 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

The more and more I read into autonomous technology and the challenges it will face, the more skeptical I am that it will ever take full foothold. There's too many variables and liability issues that need to be worked out.

No matter how good these things become at operating in a controlled environment, once you throw a large percentage of human driven vehicles into the mix, it's a whole different story. I also highly question if people are going to trust a computer to make possible life-or-death decisions for them.

If an autonomous car has to choose between mowing down two pedestrians or stuffing itself and occupants into a jersey barrier, which is it going to choose? We know what the average driver is going to do. It's not impossible, just many, many variables, as I said. 

I believe Mercedes already stated that the car would act to save the occupants first. So that's one manufacturer's stance.  It seems to me, on the surface, to be a well reasoned path to take.  In such a case, the car has greater control of the safety of the occupants (pretensioning seatbelts, rolling up windows, any other safety countermeasures that can be activated ahead of impact).

I think the biggest thing to torpedo autonomous driving technology, in the US at least, is our refusal to invest adequately in infrastructure.  Here in Pittsburgh, a self-driving Uber went the wrong way down a one way street, however, the reason was because the street was not well marked. 

I was driving in a less desirable part of town recently and nearly ran a stop sign.  The reason? The stop sign was no longer reflective, so my headlights didn't make it shine and I didn't see it until I was right on top of it.

Even just today, the power is out in parts of town due to the ice storm.  Duquesne Light has signs up at an intersection that are non-standard stop signs.  Passing back through that same intersection later, they have a cop there directing traffic.  How will an autonomous vehicle handle that sort of situation?

A couple of accidents related to this stuff is what will kill autonomous vehicles here..... not other drivers. 

28 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Attendance is not what I am talking about.  The number and importance of the debuts being shown there is dwindling.  The Pittsburgh Auto Show is fairly well attended by the public also... but we get zero debuts, so there is practically no media participation, no headlines, no reason for me to even go. 

It has dwindled in the past, but it is not dwindling.  Should be a great show this year.  I hear Ford and Lincoln have plenty to show anyway.

14 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I believe Mercedes already stated that the car would act to save the occupants first. So that's one manufacturer's stance.  It seems to me, on the surface, to be a well reasoned path to take.  In such a case, the car has greater control of the safety of the occupants (pretensioning seatbelts, rolling up windows, any other safety countermeasures that can be activated ahead of impact).

I think the biggest thing to torpedo autonomous driving technology, in the US at least, is our refusal to invest adequately in infrastructure.  Here in Pittsburgh, a self-driving Uber went the wrong way down a one way street, however, the reason was because the street was not well marked. 

I was driving in a less desirable part of town recently and nearly ran a stop sign.  The reason? The stop sign was no longer reflective, so my headlights didn't make it shine and I didn't see it until I was right on top of it.

Even just today, the power is out in parts of town due to the ice storm.  Duquesne Light has signs up at an intersection that are non-standard stop signs.  Passing back through that same intersection later, they have a cop there directing traffic.  How will an autonomous vehicle handle that sort of situation?

A couple of accidents related to this stuff is what will kill autonomous vehicles here..... not other drivers. 

 

Infrastructure is huge.  Nationwide.  But so much more is needed and technology still has lots of room to improve.

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I believe Mercedes already stated that the car would act to save the occupants first. So that's one manufacturer's stance.  It seems to me, on the surface, to be a well reasoned path to take.  In such a case, the car has greater control of the safety of the occupants (pretensioning seatbelts, rolling up windows, any other safety countermeasures that can be activated ahead of impact).

I think the biggest thing to torpedo autonomous driving technology, in the US at least, is our refusal to invest adequately in infrastructure.  Here in Pittsburgh, a self-driving Uber went the wrong way down a one way street, however, the reason was because the street was not well marked. 

I was driving in a less desirable part of town recently and nearly ran a stop sign.  The reason? The stop sign was no longer reflective, so my headlights didn't make it shine and I didn't see it until I was right on top of it.

Even just today, the power is out in parts of town due to the ice storm.  Duquesne Light has signs up at an intersection that are non-standard stop signs.  Passing back through that same intersection later, they have a cop there directing traffic.  How will an autonomous vehicle handle that sort of situation?

A couple of accidents related to this stuff is what will kill autonomous vehicles here..... not other drivers. 

 

This is also a very valid point.

On 12/16/2016 at 7:51 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Detroit auto show is rapidly losing relevance. It's down to one day of car debuts this year. 

It's because the automakers are getting smarter.....most are not willing to put that dime out and it's just easier to release it to the net or social media, and drive the curious into the showrooms to make some money.

There's no money in shows much anymore....just window shoppers. Besides us auto folk, most of john q public is more interested in what is cool and what they can afford, not the other fluff that comes along with it.

Now us car folk, we just drink it all in....

Always wanted to be a press guy there!

10 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Always wanted to be a press guy there!

You want to write some articles or do some photography?  I might be able to work something out for you ;-)

Hey Drew, I have been into photography as long as I can remember.   Pretty good at it. 

I dare you to let me too write some pieces.

33 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Hey Drew, I have been into photography as long as I can remember.   Pretty good at it. 

I dare you to let me too write some pieces.

Wouldn't you get in on a manufacturer badge?

Unfortunately, there is a conflict of interest that I would need to consider when editing your submissions.... and you might not be happy about my editing.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Wouldn't you get in on a manufacturer badge?

Unfortunately, there is a conflict of interest that I would need to consider when editing your submissions.... and you might not be happy about my editing.

That's fine.  I think I could surprise you though with how unbiased I could be when writing articles.  Completely opposite my typical stance here is.

If you were serious though, I can link you to some articles I have written.  My name and information would however become known and privacy would be appreciated. I would have to think about that.  

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

That's fine.  I think I could surprise you though with how unbiased I could be when writing articles.  Completely opposite my typical stance here is.

If you were serious though, I can link you to some articles I have written.  My name and information would however become known and privacy would be appreciated. I would have to think about that.  

I think you'd have more of a problem with Ford's social media policy than me.  With regards to the rest, I already know more than you think I do and I haven't done anything with it.

10 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I think you'd have more of a problem with Ford's social media policy than me.  With regards to the rest, I already know more than you think I do and I haven't done anything with it.

I have never every posted my name or address.

What you have seen, is what I want you to see.

10 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

I have never every posted my name or address.

What you have seen, is what I want you to see.

As I said. I know more than you think I do.

13 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You want to write some articles or do some photography?  I might be able to work something out for you ;-)

Pretty sure we could work something out! 

Just read something in one of my Science magazines. It listed items and problems for future autonomous vehicles. 

#1 was sensing the surroundings. To computers have to detect everything from light to road conditions to wind to you name it. They said there is still more work needed. 

#2 Unexpected encounters. A cop that steps into the road signalling you to stop is one simple issues that the car can not detect hand signals. 

#3 Human Robot interaction. Choosing who has responsibility when and where and enforcing it. 

#4 Cyber Security. Hacking has been an issue and will remain an issue. 

#5 Moral Dilemmas.  People are selfish and cars can only do as programmed. If a group of kids run into the road and the only option to miss them is to hit a tree the Computer will hit the tree. 

Now researchers have tested this and found when asked people would all say hit the tree not the kids if someone else is in the car. When asked if they were in the car no one would hit the tree. So it is ok to protect the pedestrians as long as it is someone else. Well the issue here is too people though different if it was say an adult old older person or younger person. Are they jay walking etc, Society has to decide what is acceptable out come in many cases and how legally it can be addressed. If the computer fails who is at fault the car or the owner?  It just goes on and gets even more complex. 

The story is in Science News Dec 24 and is a short but interesting read as it takes on the many things auto magazines have not even considered or enthusiast have though a problem.