"Shock and Awe" GMC Electric Lineup

Looks (what we can see so far) MUCH better than the Lightning - and it still strongly says 'GMC'. 

It will be interesting to see the pickups when revealed.

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

Looks (what we can see so far) MUCH better than the Lightning - and it still strongly says 'GMC'. 

It will be interesting to see the pickups when revealed.

Agree, I am liking what I see on the GMC Sierra EV. 

Based on GM's corporate web site and there, GMC/Chevrolet social media pages, the CES or Consumer Electric Show in January we will see these trucks unveiled.

Can these EV trucks survive a Detroit or Minneapolis winter with little or no loss in performance and battery life?  That is the question!

^ I have no intentions of finding out, personally... ever.

5 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Can these EV trucks survive a Detroit or Minneapolis winter with little or no loss in performance and battery life?  That is the question!

What question?

Tesla and Norway has answered that riddle a loooong time ago...

I think its time to move on from that angle...   

^ OK, so what's the data from Tesla on winter weather performance degradation?

Surely it's been tabulated by now.

How about we ask Norwegians and how they cope with it.

After all, they have voted EVs in with their money and not their mouths...

That might be formidable to tabulate on numerous fronts. Do you happen to speak Norwegian?

I assume Tesla, the company, has done cold weather testing / data collection.

Would be interesting to read their findings.

13 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Can these EV trucks survive a Detroit or Minneapolis winter with little or no loss in performance and battery life?  That is the question!

Considering GM has been building and selling trucks in cold climates for over 100 years, I'm sure they have done their homework and developed these products to perform under a variety of conditions.  This is a large car company, not some tiny startup...

Yes.  

Considering it IS General Motors and the amount of time GM has taken to release their Ultium tech EV vehicles to the public, Im sure the right engineering has gone into them to make sure uneasy and queazy Americans about EVs wont be disappoint... 

Kinda like Supercruise.

It took, what it was like, GM forever to introduce a smart cruise control system of the likes of Mercedes and Tesla and all others.  But when Cadillac unleashed it to the world...  Man-oh MAN was it gooooood! 

Have you noticed that GM, other than the Bolts, GM has NO OTHER EVs to sell?  And GM has been promising us Ultium for 2-3 years now?  Let me remind you that the Bolt is last gen Battery tech...   

Let me ALSO remind you that the Bolt does NOT lose THAT much battery life in cold cold weather.  No need to speak Norwegian to actually see what THAT data tells us about either the Bolt OR Tesla.... as both have been sold in Canada and in the US and some of these ENGLISH speaking folk have announced it on their Youtube videos have dealt with it more or less with no real pain...

There is no need to go all 'Fox News covering the Jan. 6 riots' or CNBC Chevy pick-up truck explosion' on this matter...  

Ill repeat, Norwegians dont seem too disturbed from their daily lives by the battery life loss in cold weather. Maybe we as uneasy, queazy Americans and Canadians shoudnt make a mountain out of a mole hill...

It makes us look weak and stupid to the rest of the world...

16 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Can these EV trucks survive a Detroit or Minneapolis winter with little or no loss in performance and battery life?  That is the question!

Gasoline and diesel lose range in winter months as well, just say'n. 

9 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

How about we ask Norwegians and how they cope with it.

After all, they have voted EVs in with their money and not their mouths...

 

I mean, with government incentives. They didn't just decide to pay full price for electric vehicles because they like them. They get additional benefits like access to bus-only lanes, and free municipal parking, 50% ferry/toll fees, you can look at the rest below.

The Norwegian EV incentives:

• No purchase/import taxes (1990-)
• Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-)
• No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021.
• No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997- 2017).
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018-)
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2019)
• Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
• Parking fee for EVs was introduced locally with an upper limit of a maximum 50% of the full price (2018-)
• Access to bus lanes (2005-).
• New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016)
• 50 % reduced company car tax (2000-2018).
• Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-)
• Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015)
• Fiscal compensation for the scrapping of fossil vans when converting to a zero-emission van (2018)

https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Gasoline and diesel lose range in winter months as well, just say'n. 

Albeit not as much.  

With my rant, I dont want to make it seem that there is no SIGNIFANT battery life. Because there is.  With my rant, I dont want us to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

If we are honest about this EV thing, there is plenty from the tech that is way way waaaaaaaay behind what we are used to with the internal combustion engine. 

But that is the thing. 

Are we expecting EV tech to be on par with tech that we have been using, improving and honing in on for the last 120 some odd years?

of COURSE there HAS to be some compromises to be made with a switch to EVs. 

I get it, some of us do not WANT to make these compromises.

Fair enough.    But lets be honest about THAT then. There is no need to false news it...

But then again, we have come to a point where humans have no CHOICE but TO change their ways regarding pollution.  

Is battery tech all that superior to gasoline tech in regards to pollution? 

Some say yes. Some say no.  And somewhere in between those two factions the truth resides...   

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I mean, with government incentives. They didn't just decide to pay full price for electric vehicles because they like them. They get additional benefits like access to bus-only lanes, and free municipal parking, 50% ferry/toll fees, you can look at the rest below.

The Norwegian EV incentives:

• No purchase/import taxes (1990-)
• Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-)
• No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021.
• No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997- 2017).
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018-)
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2019)
• Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
• Parking fee for EVs was introduced locally with an upper limit of a maximum 50% of the full price (2018-)
• Access to bus lanes (2005-).
• New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016)
• 50 % reduced company car tax (2000-2018).
• Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-)
• Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015)
• Fiscal compensation for the scrapping of fossil vans when converting to a zero-emission van (2018)

https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/

Yes!

And that is going to happen here (North America) too.   

Like I said above.   Its time for humans to change their ways in consuming certain items...    And even if we dont agree on that statement regarding climate change...

The Hemi is going away because Dodge pays huge compliance fines. And ultimately, the emissions regulations WORLD WIDE regarding ICE will end up killing off 3 and 4 cylinder cars WORLD WIDE before this decade is up...

World wide INCLUDES the US and Canada.

I’m not reading anyone here ‘making a mountain out of a molehill’; merely asking to see data on extreme cold weather BE degradation. 

It’s a valid question.

And there’s nothing wrong in asking it.

I believe last year when I looked this information up, it was roughly a 30% loss of range. Obviously each vehicle's heating/cooling of the batteries will change the drop in range and everybody has different solutions to maintaining their batteries. 

Cost is what is going to matter not battery degradation.  Most people aren't driving more than 50 miles a day, I think range and battery degradation are highly over rated, and probably that narrative was started by car companies wanting to sell gas cars and not really form consumers.

The question is what can be done with cost, Since they are starting with the Denali, I would guess this is another $100k or close to it pickup truck, maybe it's $75k like a Rivian.  But the Hummer is over $100k, the Lucid is $149k.  The real winner of EV future is who can make a mid-size sedan or SUV that electric for Rav4 or Camry money.  Who can make an EV pickup that costs as much as an F150 XLT, where the main build of sales are.    This is where it could be Tesla, and if so, all these other guys are in big trouble.  

45 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think range and battery degradation are highly over rated, and probably that narrative was started by car companies wanting to sell gas cars and not really form consumers.

I think it most started because range wasn't 250-500 miles like it is now. Losing 30% range in something that only gets 70-150 miles of range in good conditions, is pretty crappy to only get 50-100 miles of range in poor conditions. I know it isn't often but surpassing 100 miles in a day of a lot of running around isn't unheard of. I wouldn't have been able to pick up my wife's G55 from the dealership Saturday in cold conditions if I had less than 100 miles of range. It's 60 miles in each direction. Had I had a Mercedes Benz B Class Electric (84 miles of range), it would be a two charge trip. Just say'n, I think that's why this is a major topic still. 

52 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

the Lucid is $149k

We've been over this, it starts at 75k, just like a Model S. 

7 hours ago, balthazar said:

I’m not reading anyone here ‘making a mountain out of a molehill’; merely asking to see data on extreme cold weather BE degradation. 

It’s a valid question.

And there’s nothing wrong in asking it.

I agree, good question to ask, seems you can find plenty of cold weather results on the Chevrolet Bolt and yet all these stories talk about how great the Tesla Alaska testing site it, but still no real data.

An exclusive look at Tesla's extreme cold testing facility - Roadshow (cnet.com)

Tesla's Winter Testing Facility In Alaska Is Pretty Incredible (insideevs.com)

Interesting that even on Tesla own forum owners admit that they want to see but have found no info on Tesla 3 cold weather battery degradation.

Cold weather testing — Tesla Forums

Interesting that another Tesla Forum also has the same results of no info on any of Tesla products even though they have their winter testing ground. They do mention Bolt data and how good the Bolt is at minimal battery degradation in extreme cold.

Cold weather testing? | Tesla Motors Club

This is probably one of the best news stories on Tesla and how it matches up to the Bolt. Tesla in -36c Saskatchewan Canada takes 10 min to heat up before it lets you drive it. Chevrolet Bolt heats up in seconds and due to the battery tech that manages the battery pack, even in the extreme cold you can get in and drive right away. WIN GM.

Teslas & Other EVs In Extreme Cold (-36°C) - CleanTechnica

Tesla Support has plenty of cold weather tips and they state to use their software app to make sure the auto is ready for you 10 minutes before you leave by having it do the cold weather start up process. This makes me even more want to take a GM EV over a Tesla.

Winter Driving Tips | Tesla

Interesting that RIVIAN has learned from GM as they manage the heating of the battery pack in extreme cold to keep it ready to use instantly rather than a 10 min preheat like Tesla. Rivian testing is done near the north pole in -40C in Canada.

Rivian tests R1T electric pickup in sub-zero temperatures - Electrek

This tends to make me think GM and Ford will have far superior EVs in Cold Climates over Tesla.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134470_cold-weather-affects-ev-range-differently-for-each-model-here-are-some-examples
 

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I think it most started because range wasn't 250-500 miles like it is now. Losing 30% range in something that only gets 70-150 miles of range in good conditions, is pretty crappy to only get 50-100 miles of range in poor conditions. I know it isn't often but surpassing 100 miles in a day of a lot of running around isn't unheard of. I wouldn't have been able to pick up my wife's G55 from the dealership Saturday in cold conditions if I had less than 100 miles of range. It's 60 miles in each direction. Had I had a Mercedes Benz B Class Electric (84 miles of range), it would be a two charge trip. Just say'n, I think that's why this is a major topic still. 

We've been over this, it starts at 75k, just like a Model S. 

The Cheapest Lucid Air (Pure), which you can reserve now, but it isn't in production until spring 2022, is $84,900 base price before tax credits.   A Mercedes-AMG E53 which is the same size, has similar performance and a better interior is $75,000 base price.  A Lexus LS which is a larger, more luxurious car than the Air Pure starts at $76,000.   The Air has hype because the top end version has over 1,000 hp, but the middle trim has to go against E63's and M5's, the Taycan and Panamera, the lower trim against established German sedans and Lexus and this isn't a big segment.  Infiniti, Cadillac, Lincoln, and Acura have all got out of mid-large luxury sedans, and Lexus killed the GS because there is no growth in this segment.  

The 2022 Model S starts at $94,990, and if you order today, you get it July of 2022 (estimated).   That car is super fast, but it has a pretty mediocre interior.  BMW, Audi and Mercedes can all undercut that price with the EQE, A6 E-Tron, and i5-series EV thing and have a better interior, better car. 

The market will flood with EV's, but these near $100k cars are such a tiny part of the market, no one is really even attempting a volume EV, outside of maybe Tesla with the 3/Y, but even those the global volume on that is a fraction of what a Rav4 or CR-V does globally.

23 hours ago, balthazar said:

I’m not reading anyone here ‘making a mountain out of a molehill’; merely asking to see data on extreme cold weather BE degradation. 

It’s a valid question.

And there’s nothing wrong in asking it.

I am Greek, therefore a little melodrama here and there is the norm from where I come from. Either from starting it myself, or actually noticing it and calling it out.  Even if its a small tiny amount of melodrama, I sees it.  Im accustomed to seeing it.  Its in my Greek DNA.    Italian and Hebrew peoples are also masters of melodrama in sniffing it out and creating it.         Call it a gift?  (For creating it and seeing it)  Anyway.  

A question was asked about if the technology is up to snuff to withstand harsh Michigan winters.  And it was asked in a way to undermine GM's ability to engineer things and at the same time,  it was asked in way to undermine the technology itself. 

Nothing wrong it asking about it. But everything wrong about being skeptical about it when Teslas have been in use in harsh weathers since close to a decade now.

And the answers that were posted by CCAP, Robert and myself have addressed the issue.   

When a Model S had a range of 200 some odd miles with the 60 KW/H battery, and when Nissan Leafs and Chevy Bolts had 100 some odd mile ranges, 5-6 years ago, then yeah, it was an issue.  The norm now is 300 mile range.  Even at 50% battery loss life with harsh cold weather and the heater is on full blast and because its NOT uncommon to HAVE a 50% battery loss regardless what EV we are talking about, 150 mile range on a REGULAR daily driven commute does NOT pose a problem any more.  If one wants to do other things and drive to different places on TOP of their regular daily driven routine, then at even 150 mile range, we WILL have a problem.  The thing is,  I live in an area where the climate gets harshly cold very very often every winter. But I drive gasoline powered cars. For now. The thing is though, even with a FULL TANK OF GAS, I DO NOT DRIVE HERE AND THERE AND EVERYWHERE WHEN ITS HARSHLY COLD OR SNOW STORMY OUTSIDE...  Or at least I try not to...

So we could throw all kinds of imaginary problems to our skeptical criticism of a technology that we may not welcome in our lives, we should try to be less melodramatic with our questions surrounding our unfounded problems with the tech.

Like I said, no need to create a mountain out of a molehill.  (I saw that its one word and not two. LOL)   Because I saw through the melodramatic style of asking the question if General Motors could release an EV pick-up truck ready for the vigors of a harsh Michigan winter...   

If the argument will delve into: "But I NEED to drive those miles..."  

Then if THAT is the case, EVs are NOT the type of vehicle that addresses that persons needs. So moot point about cold battery life loss...   However, the technology is advancing by leaps and bounds.   The more expensive EVs are already in the 400 mile range and the Lucid Air is said (not proven yet)to have a 500 mile range.   And the newer battery tech such as Ultium, is said to reduce battery loss due to cold.   By the time ICE becomes really dead, these cold issues will have been eliminated.. 

29 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Chevy Bolts had 100 some odd mile ranges, 5-6 years ago

Bolt came out in 2017 with a 238 mile range. It's currently 259.

ccap's posted chart is very good info (if the results of real-world independent results, not OEM-sourced).
hyundai, vw, bmw, Chevy & Ford see some significant loss, but Teslas apparently do not. 

I have good faith in GM, but the Ultium system is brand new to production- and you know you should never buy the first year of a new major system. ?

On 12/18/2021 at 12:15 PM, balthazar said:

Bolt came out in 2017 with a 238 mile range. It's currently 259.

ccap's posted chart is very good info (if the results of real-world independent results, not OEM-sourced).
hyundai, vw, bmw, Chevy & Ford see some significant loss, but Teslas apparently do not. 

I have good faith in GM, but the Ultium system is brand new to production- and you know you should never buy the first year of a new major system. ?

One of the key factors in maintaining battery performance is whether the car comes equipped with a heat pump and battery warmer or not.  The heat pump scavenges waste heat from additional sources to warm the cabin.  The battery warmer is like a block heater, but for batteries. On some EVs (mostly the cheaper ones) it is an option or not even available. I'm fairly certain it is standard with the Teslas. Li-Io batteries don't do well at lower temperatures and using their own electricity to warm them up helps to provide additional range.   I would bet all the candy in my stocking that the EVs above that have the largest performance degradation in cold weather do not have heat pumps while the ones that do have one. 

And just like a block heater, an EV heatpump isn't needed in Texas or Florida, so it makes sense that the less expensive EVs make it optional when it is available. Hyundai makes it part of a very extensive $3,500 convenience package.  Kia makes it available on a $1,100 Cold-Weather package that also includes a heated steering wheel.

Looking at that chart, it seems the combination of a heat pump and battery warming is the key combination to range much like Direct Injection + Turbo charging made a huge difference.  The Bolt has battery warming, but it only operates between 30% and 90% charge, it does not have a heat pump, is uses the equivalent of a large hair dryer to warm the cabin. The Teslas have all had improvements to their battery temperature management over the years, the older ones saw large range drops in cold weather.  However, you'll notice the Model Y actually has a slight improvement in range in cold weather... it was the first Tesla to come with a heat pump. The Model 3 did get it starting with the 2021 model year, but with the way Tesla does model years, not every 2021 Model 3 may have one.  So, since the chart doesn't specify the model year tested, the results shown for the Model 3 are likely 2020 or older. 

So if you're shopping for an EV and live in a colder climate, you want an EV with both a good battery warmer and a heat pump to get the most range. 

Also, keeping the car plugged in overnight will keep the battery nice and warm for when you leave in the morning. 

On 12/17/2021 at 8:27 PM, smk4565 said:

The Cheapest Lucid Air (Pure), which you can reserve now, but it isn't in production until spring 2022, is $84,900 base price before tax credits.   A Mercedes-AMG E53 which is the same size, has similar performance and a better interior is $75,000 base price.  A Lexus LS which is a larger, more luxurious car than the Air Pure starts at $76,000.

I'm sure you read the comparison between the Air and EQGarbage and the praise on how well Lucid packaged the Air's interior saying it was as spacious as the S Class/EQS. 

I'm sure you can figure out which is which based on the below measurements/capacities. 

I'm positive you didn't even do your own research here so I'll show you.

On 12/17/2021 at 9:27 PM, smk4565 said:

A Mercedes-AMG E53 which is the same size, has similar performance and a better interior is $75,000 base price.

Taking the “comparing apples to gas powered oranges” to a whole other level I see? Face it. The EQS is a huge let down and you’ve have been pedaling endless excuses for it by pointing out the perceived (and easily debunked) flaws of everyone else. Classic deflection. 

16 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Taking the “comparing apples to gas powered oranges” to a whole other level I see? Face it. The EQS is a huge let down and you’ve have been pedaling endless excuses for it by pointing out the perceived (and easily debunked) flaws of everyone else. Classic deflection. 

Has Mercedes made an EV worth a damn yet? I mean, the EQS isn't a bad vehicle, it just looks like complete crap. Why somebody would consciously choose a vehicle that looks as jellybean as that vehicle is beyond me.  

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Has Mercedes made an EV worth a damn yet? I mean, the EQS isn't a bad vehicle, it just looks like complete crap. Why somebody would consciously choose a vehicle that looks as jellybean as that vehicle is beyond me.  

Exactly. All the effort they put into the interior design should have been dedicated to that low rent looking exterior and maybe add a frunk while you’re at it. That is not the “best or nothing”. 

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Exactly. All the effort they put into the interior design should have been dedicated to that low rent looking exterior and maybe add a drunk while you’re at it. That is not the “best or nothing”. 

Absolutely, isn't one of the biggest perks of going EV to save quite a bit of space which can (should) be used as a frunk? Or, at least repurpose the hood/frunk area for something else. An EV without a frunk just doesn't make sense to me, unless the vehicle is pretty small. That's where I give the Bolt a pass (and other compact vehicles). It's a small enough vehicle that packaging still dictates that space is needed for powertrain components. 

If freakin' FORD can make a frunk on a Mach-E, then Mercedes should be able to make a frunk on an S Class-sized vehicle. 

On 12/21/2021 at 11:15 AM, ccap41 said:

Absolutely, isn't one of the biggest perks of going EV to save quite a bit of space which can (should) be used as a frunk? Or, at least repurpose the hood/frunk area for something else. An EV without a frunk just doesn't make sense to me, unless the vehicle is pretty small. That's where I give the Bolt a pass (and other compact vehicles). It's a small enough vehicle that packaging still dictates that space is needed for powertrain components. 

If freakin' FORD can make a frunk on a Mach-E, then Mercedes should be able to make a frunk on an S Class-sized vehicle. 

The EQS has a HEPA filter in the front.  The EQS has hospital operating room quality air on the inside, which other cars do not.

On 12/21/2021 at 9:41 AM, ccap41 said:

I'm sure you read the comparison between the Air and EQGarbage and the praise on how well Lucid packaged the Air's interior saying it was as spacious as the S Class/EQS. 

I'm sure you can figure out which is which based on the below measurements/capacities. 

I'm positive you didn't even do your own research here so I'll show you.

 

I actually thought their $77,400 was after tax credit, because Tesla advertises car prices like that, they give you the after tax credit price, which you may not even qualify for.  And let's see if they actually build that car or if next year the base Air is delayed, then all of a sudden the 2023 model is $84k base.  Much like the $35k Model 3 that never happened.  

The Air does a lot of impressive things, but the interior is not on Mercedes level.  The EQS is an ugly car, but I don't think the Air is that good looking either.  If it said Camry on the front, no one would question it.  Also the Mercedes EQE is the same size as the Air, so we'll see how that price comparison goes.  

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The EQS has a HEPA filter in the front.  The EQS has hospital operating room quality air on the inside, which other cars do not.

Literally nobody gives a fck about this. 

Also, this doesn't take up anywhere near the entire frunk area. 

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The EQS has hospital operating room quality air on the inside

Once you open the door or window and...POOF!  There goes the hospital operating room quality air on the inside...

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I actually thought their $77,400 was after tax credit, because Tesla advertises car prices like that, they give you the after tax credit price, which you may not even qualify for.  And let's see if they actually build that car or if next year the base Air is delayed, then all of a sudden the 2023 model is $84k base.  Much like the $35k Model 3 that never happened.  

The Air does a lot of impressive things, but the interior is not on Mercedes level.  The EQS is an ugly car, but I don't think the Air is that good looking either.  If it said Camry on the front, no one would question it.  Also the Mercedes EQE is the same size as the Air, so we'll see how that price comparison goes.  

So it's actually about $5,000 cheaper than a Model S. Well, I guess Tesla's cheapest Model S currently has a purchase price of $94,990 so more like $17,000 cheaper. It looks like there is no 2WD Model S anymore, or at least for the time-being. 

29 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Once you open the door or window and...POOF!  There goes the hospital operating room quality air on the inside...

Can you imagine rolling around with the windows down or the sunroof open?!? 

THEY'D BE CLEANING THE AIR FOR EVERYBODY!!! 

16 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Can you imagine rolling around with the windows down or the sunroof open?!? 

THEY'D BE CLEANING THE AIR FOR EVERYBODY!!! 

 I got the visual!!!

 Imagine trying to clean out the outside air of a city's downtown core?  How long would a HEPA filter last by cleaning out the air for everybody?   

What about the surfaces?    The air might be clean but are the surfaces clean as well?  Does a HEPA air filter system clean the surfaces.  Surely no bacteria lives on surfaces that we touch in our cars. The dashboard, the steering wheel, the seats we sit our asses on...

So much wrong with a marketing campaign focusing on a HEPA air filter system in a damned car. A car???!!! Perhaps one of THE most dirtiest things we touch on a daily basis due to the fact that we dont wash our hands nearly half as much as we should, even during COVID times, eating and having crumbs and coffee spill and sauce from Big Macs fall, or slush during winter,  driving around in cities where smog exists and a car is not hermetically sealed. Like not even 1% hermetically sealed...  

Leave it to the Mercedes fanboi to toot toot toot such a useless marketing bullshyting campaign...