2021 Genesis G80 Packs New Styling, Two Turbo Engines

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac states the CT5 is a C-class, A4, 3-series, G70 competitor.  

On price the CT5 and G70 match up very closely, but the CT5 is the size of a G80.   I think the G80 is nicer than a CT5, CT5 and G70 are about equal I think, depends on  how big a car you want.  I think the Cadillac will sell better as it is 1 car covering 2 segments basically and has more recognizable brand name and dealer network.

On a side note a BMW M340i has a 3.8 second 0-60 time, that's not only a full second faster than a CT5-V, it is faster than a Camaro SS or Mustang GT.  This is the big separator with the Germans and these other guys, the performance isn't there.  Genesis isn't going to make a sedan that fast, let alone an M3 competitor.  Cadillac at least has tried with the V-series to make some fast cars, but they could still do more, like V-series SUVs, etc.

Your side note is bunk. That BMW is $14K more than the Camaro and almost $20K more than the Stang. It better be faster. The BMW starts at $56K and for $8K more, a Camaro ZL1 smokes it 0-60. This is what happens when you constantly try to move the freakin bar. And that CT5-V is not the same V as what was in the previous gen CTS. You have been told this multiple times but again, that bar moving. The Blackwing CT5 that replaces the previous V high tier performance, is 650HP and will be available with a manual. Think that damn 3 series is going to touch that? No so all this BS about performance (that you had to create via that bar moving again) not being a strong suit of the domestics is pure uninformed bull$h! on your part. I don’t know why you have to keep being reminded of this but those are the facts. Just stop. 
 

And for the fifteenth time, this is about the Genesis G80. Here’s hoping it can compete in the long run with the overpriced and overhyped Germans. 

On 5/13/2020 at 4:22 PM, riviera74 said:

Perhaps, but Genesis needs a GV70 to compete in the compact luxury CUV market, where the Lexus RX reigns supreme (for now).

The NX is more the GV70 competitor, but neither the NX nor the RX will have the handling or performance of the GV70 (we'll eventually see the 420+ HP 3.5TT in the GV70, which likely will get beaten in performance by the eGV70).

19 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And the G80 is a nice effort but no match for the E-class or 5-series. 

And how exactly do you know that?

International reviews of the KDM G80 have stated otherwise.

On 5/15/2020 at 6:56 PM, smk4565 said:

CT5 is a C-class competitor, the CT5 actually costs less than a C-class.  CT6 is out of production.

Genesis plans to go into the luxury sedan segment with reliability and low maintenance cost as their sales pitch, but Lexus and Acura tried that and failed.  And Genesis has a less than 5 year track record so we don’t really know if their long term reliability is good.

The Genesis sedan has been around since 2008 and the Equus/Centennial dates back to 1999.

smk has been wrong on many things, but he/she is correct on the CT5 - it is Cadillac's entry-level competitor (even if they are saying that it also stretches to replace the CTS).

Despite its larger size, the CT5 is priced for the entry/compact segment, like the predecessor to the ATS, the 2G CTS.

After the failure of the ATS due to its quizzically cramped cabin (can thank Mark Reuss for that fiasco), Cadillac went back to its prior formula of offering more space at the price-point (Genesis also does this w/ the G80 and Infiniti w/ the Q50).
 

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Right but CT4 is a 1-series, A-class, A3 competitor.  As Johan previously stated while there, Cadillac was going to go to that segment with rear drive when everyone else did front drive.   And you can throw the Acura TLX in there, which is bigger than a CT4, but same price point.

This is also correct.

What Cadillac did for its new sedans was to basically make them LWB from the start, hence, doing away w/ the need to develop a separate LWB for China (so what you get here is the same size as what you get in China;  no separate LWB variant like the ATS-L).

There was a 2G CT6 planned that was supposed to take over the role of the 3G CTS as the 5 Series/E Class competitor, but got canceled (there have been rumblings of Cadillac re-entering that segment w/ an electric vehicle).

That above...about Cadillac...is not correct.

The Catera is the car that started the RWD sports sedan entry for Cadillac. That was waaaay back in 1997.  Johan was at Audi then.

The Catera was roughly the size of a 1st gen CTS and 2nd gen CTS.  The Catera would be the failed predecessor of the CTS.

From the get go, the Catera was going to be the BMW 3 Series (4 door) rival. It was considerably bigger than the E36 Bimmer. 

Then Cadillac did the Arts and Science thing and decided to go to a more precise way to do a BMW 3 Series rival sedan.  Changed the name to CTS. Cadillac at this time also wanted to do away with FWD sedans and changed their FWD Seville Touring Sedan and Seville Luxury Sedan (STS and SLS for short...and minor differences mainly 25 HP and 5 ft/lbs less for the SLS versus the STS amongst other trivial things) to a RWD STS.  It was a couple of years now that Seville was retired to STS and SLS but with the RWD version, only STS was the nameplate.

The STS was a BMW 5 Series competitor.  Both the CTS and STS were slightly bigger than their rivals but slightly smaller than the next step up.

What does that mean?

The CTS was bigger than the 3 Series but smaller than a STS and BMW 5 Series.  

The STS was slightly bigger than the 5 Series but smaller than a BMW 7 Series.

This lasted for another generation.  But sometime during the 2nd gen CTS, the STS was canceled.

The 3rd generation CTS arrived. But this CTS REPLACED the STS and an new entrant came to be. The ATS.  Meaning, the CTS now is DIRECTLY competing with the BMW 5 Series in size as well. The ATS gets smaller than the 1st and 2nd gen CTS and is now the SAME size as the 3 Series Bimmer.  ( The 4 Series Bimmer now also grew to be bigger....)

OK...NOW....with ANOTHER name change... CADILLAC HAS GONE BACK to the original formula in that the CT4 is a tweener like the 1st and 2nd gen CTS was to the 3 Series Bimmer and a competitor to the 4 Series Bimmer which is slightly bigger than the 4 Series and the CT5 is slightly bigger than the 5 Series Bimmer but pricewise...Both Cadillacs are directly inline with their respective BMW rivals. 

Johan...wanted a car SMALLER than the ATS. That was scrapped I believe as there are no talks about it ever since he left Cadillac.  And yes...RWD.  Shyte!  Cadillac has been in this RWD market sports sedan niche since 1997. That be 23 years.  yes. Of coarse a smaller car than the ATS would be RWD. Cadillac has gone full out RWD performance for its CARS since the first CTS-V hit the streets in 2004...  Their was even a failed XLR...Corvette borrowed chassis in that mix and a very real V12 mid engined concept car created that actually drove like a REAL production car. THAT is how serious Cadillac was for doing RWD performance cars....    And THAT is waaaaaay before Johan came in at Cadillac. All Johan did was continue the perfornce RWD trend. 

Nothing to do Johan stating he will do RWD in segments where the Japanese and Germans are going FWD.  But EVERYTHING to do in continuing what Cadillac had started a decade plus before he came in...

And THAT is why I said...

WRONG

Lets get our facts straight.

PS: 

The ATS L in China was almost like an afterthought when Cadillac decided to start selling cars in China. That was AFTER the ATS development but was easy to do as the ATS rode on the Alpha platform.  The bigger CTS rides on that platform too...

The BIGGER mistake was NOT offering the ATS-L in North America.  They had NOTHING to lose in doing so...

BUT...Like you said OCN.

Cadillac has an onslaught of EVs coming.

But Ill bet a bigger selection of CUV and SUV EVs will be offered first and the sedan EVs will be limited. 

Maybe a CT6 sized or S Class sized Cadillac EV sedan will come to fruition and maybe a Tesla Model S competitor in a CT5 V  EV will be produced, but not before an onslaught of EV CUVs...

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

This thread has been hijacked anyway talking about Mercedes more than Genesis...on TWO occasions. 

Yeah that comment was aimed toward all the derailments in general, not any one in particular.

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

M340injected is the top trim/performance model in the 3-series. But NONe of the 3 American models you compared it to are the top performance models. That’s the problem.

They make an M3.

4 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

This thread has been hijacked anyway talking about Mercedes more than Genesis...on TWO occasions. 

So to derail it further and perhaps in a more interesting topic... 

Not really a slow news day. 

Delta airlines is retiring all of its Boeing 777s.  That is a big blow to Boeing as Delta is also going to replace their fleet of 777s with  relying on their Airbus A350-900s with their longer routes and for their smaller routes with the Airbus  A330.  Delta says that both Airbuses are more fuel efficient and cost effective than the 777. 

 

Europeans beating America on fuel efficiency again?

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

They make an M3.

Not currently.
But you CAN build/buy a GT500 at Ford.

4 hours ago, OCN2 said:

^ Thanks riviera.

Yes, the GV80 will be the 1st of 3 CUVs.

GV80

GV70

Dedicated BEV CUV

Both the GV80 and GV70 likely also get EV variants.

Also, I'm sure Genesis is mulling over whether they should go ahead w/ the GV90, or maybe a smaller CUV (GV60).

 

The G80 has sold way better than the GS and w/ the F/L G90, sales are neck-and-neck w/ the LS 500.

The ATP for Genesis and Lexus are also on par w/ each other, so w/ the addition of the GV80 and the new G80, the ATP for Genesis should surpass that of Lexus.

As Tesla has shown, what you have done in the past doesn't matter nearly as much these days.

Genesis will have an electrified lineup before the Japanese.

 

There's a G80 Sport on the way (reportedly around 420 HP), as well as the aforementioned electrified eG80.

As stated above, there's already around 10k pre-orders for the GV80.

Doubt there would be too many H/K buyers trading up to a $50k-to-nearly $70k CUV (maybe something like the GV70).

The ones that will likely would be from the top spec of the Palisade and Telluride.

 

2 good posts in a row and I think Genesis is aggressive and will have a 6 vehicle line that is pretty strong within a couple years.  The SUVs will be key.  The GV80 and G80 interiors seem very nice, new chassis, new engine, that is all good stuff.
 

But they are also going against the German big 3 pretty much head on.  You have to be on your A game and be relentless.  Keep in mind Audi has an SUV that does the Nurburgring 12 seconds slower than a C8 Corvette Z51.  Can Genesis get a GV80 near Corvette level performance?  
 

Lincoln Aviatior is a good case study for Genesis, they came in with standard 400 hp turbo V6, optional 500 hp hybrid.  GV80 turbo 4 is priced against the 400 hp Aviator, the GV80 V6 is less powerful than the Aviator and probably with the right options mix the 2 could cost the same in V6 guise.  But Aviator is getting smoked in sales by others in the segment.  I’m not sure GV80 is an all out Aviator killer and it needs to be.

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Your side note is bunk. That BMW is $14K more than the Camaro and almost $20K more than the Stang. It better be faster. The BMW starts at $56K and for $8K more, a Camaro ZL1 smokes it 0-60. This is what happens when you constantly try to move the freakin bar. And that CT5-V is not the same V as what was in the previous gen CTS. You have been told this multiple times but again, that bar moving. The Blackwing CT5 that replaces the previous V high tier performance, is 650HP and will be available with a manual. Think that damn 3 series is going to touch that? No so all this BS about performance (that you had to create via that bar moving again) not being a strong suit of the domestics is pure uninformed bull$h! on your part. I don’t know why you have to keep being reminded of this but those are the facts. Just stop. 
 

And for the fifteenth time, this is about the Genesis G80. Here’s hoping it can compete in the long run with the overpriced and overhyped Germans. 

The 340i is priced near the CT5-V and G70 V6 and the BMW spanks both in performance, better interior too although not as nice as the C43 which is slower than the 340i but faster than the other 2.

As far as G80 goes, the BMW 550i is faster than a Lexus LFA, CTS-V or CT6 Blackwing.    So I’d expect a G80 to have that level of performance.  I am not even saying Genesis needs M5 or E63 performance, that won’t happen, but they should be able to get to 550i level especially since they hired a guy from BMW to run their R&D.

4 hours ago, OCN2 said:

 

And how exactly do you know that?

International reviews of the KDM G80 have stated otherwise.

 

All true in this post.  
And to answer the question, the E-class has 4 body styles (5 if you count CLS) and G80 has 1.  E-class has 4 engines in the US, all of which will be electrified for 2021 and the G80 has 2 engines with no electrification.  The E-class has up to 603 hp, the G80 has up to 375.  Also pretty much anything offered on the G80 was on the E-class 3 years ago. The G80 has to share a chassis with the GV80, E-class and GLE use different architectures so to optimize one for cars and the other for SUV.  And lastly Mercedes has a loyal buyer pool, Genesis has to conquest from another brand.  

G80 has the deck stacked against it.  And we have seen everyone else make runs at the E-class and 5-series in the past, Lexus even failed and finally quit the segment.  I don’t see how Genesis wins where Lexus failed.
 

@oldshurst442  That was a long post so I didn’t quote it, but I see a theme Cadillac Catera (Opel Omega), STS, DTS, CTS, XLR, ATS are all gone or failed.  Throw SRX that was rear drive and now a front drive XT5.  XTS too, 8 dead name plates in 20 years.  
 

Also CT5 is what gen 1 CTS was, 5-series size for 3-series money.  Gen 1 CTS was the best selling (best looking too) so that is a correct strategy. 

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The 3rd generation CTS arrived. But this CTS REPLACED the STS and an new entrant came to be. The ATS.  Meaning, the CTS now is DIRECTLY competing with the BMW 5 Series in size as well. The ATS gets smaller than the 1st and 2nd gen CTS and is now the SAME size as the 3 Series Bimmer.  ( The 4 Series Bimmer now also grew to be bigger....)

OK...NOW....with ANOTHER name change... CADILLAC HAS GONE BACK to the original formula in that the CT4 is a tweener like the 1st and 2nd gen CTS was to the 3 Series Bimmer and a competitor to the 4 Series Bimmer which is slightly bigger than the 4 Series and the CT5 is slightly bigger than the 5 Series Bimmer but pricewise...Both Cadillacs are directly inline with their respective BMW rivals.

Agree w/ everything until the CT4 and CT5 part.

In developing the ATS (and Alpha platform), Mark Reuss wanted to badly beat the 3 Series at its own game.

Problem was, Reuss benchmarked the E90 3 Series 109" WB), when he should have known that the next 3er was going to get larger (which it did w/ the F30 - 110.6" WB).

The WB of the ATS (109.3" WB) was almost identical to that of the E90.

So by the time the ATS went into production in 2012, it was already being outclassed by the F30 which went into production a year earlier in 2011.

Further exacerbating things, Reuss and the engineers working on the ATS made it so that handling prowess was maximized at the expense of trunk space.

In terms of passenger/trunk space, the ATS was more in line w/ something like the A3 (and now the A Class) than the A4 and C Class.

As an aside, the Alpha platform is the gift that keeps on giving - the 3G CTS was also tighter when it came to passenger space than its competition (5 Series/E Class) and when the Camaro switched over to the Alpha, interior room got squeezed and sales tanked (the ancient Challenger, w/ its copious amount of passenger space in comparison, started to outsell the Camaro, and by a good margin at that).

The CT4 is not the replacement for the ATS.

The CT4 has the exact same WB as the ATS (109.3" WB).

Why would Cadillac make the exact same mistake again for its compact/entry-level offering?

Yes, the CT4 is longer in overall length (187.2" compared to 182.8"), but that's pretty much all behind the rear axle - which was necessary to provide enough rear headroom w/ the new sloping roofline.

Like you had stated, the ATS-L should have replaced the ATS here in the US, but its WB is 112.6", making it a good bit roomier in the passenger compartment than the CT4, but there would have been a political price to pay for importing it from China and it wasn't worth the cost of tooling a plant here to produce it.

The CTS was on a different platform that was longer (114.6" WB) and wider than the WB for the ATS-L.

Furthermore, why would Cadillac drop the price of its compact/entry-level offering (if it were the CT4) down to $32,995?

That's a whopping $6k lower than the base price of the ATS ($38,995) which was already priced below the 3 Series ($40,750) and the C Class ($41,400).

That $32,995 price of the CT4 is below that of the A Class ($33,650), much less the CLA ($37,850) and they are FWD-based.

So are you saying that Cadillac's brand cachet is so damaged, that its compact offering has to be priced below MB's FWD subcompact offerings, and around $8,500 below the C Class?

That's also below the base price of the Acura TLX ($33,000), another FWD model.

As for the CT5, it starts at $36,895, lower than the price of the ATS.

Why in the heck would Cadillac's newest mid-segment offering be priced lower than its old compact offering?

And that's $17k below the price of the E Class ($54,050).

The new G80 is expected to start around $46k-48k ($47k, btw, is where the CTS starts), so Cadillac has to undercut Genesis by $10k as well?

None of that makes any sense.

But it's not just that; spent plenty of time on a Cadillac forum which included input from an insider who had access to Cadillac's future roadmap and read pretty much everything JdN had stated about his plans for Cadillac.

Like I had stated before, Cadillac went back to the strategy of the 2G CTS in providing more room than the competition, which also did away w/ the need for a separate LWB variants for China (JDN having focused on China as the market to drive increased volume).

The planned sedan lineup was as follows:

CT4 - sub-entry

CT5 - compact/entry

CT6 - midsize

CT7/CT8 - flagship

CT8/CT9 - uber-flagship

The 2G CT6 was canceled, or at the very least, suspended.

The Omega-based CT7/CT8 was canceled.

The uber-flagship morphed into the Celestiq EV.

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

@oldshurst442  That was a long post so I didn’t quote it, but I see a theme Cadillac Catera (Opel Omega), STS, DTS, CTS, XLR, ATS are all gone or failed.  Throw SRX that was rear drive and now a front drive XT5.  XTS too, 8 dead name plates in 20 years.  
 

Also CT5 is what gen 1 CTS was, 5-series size for 3-series money.  Gen 1 CTS was the best selling (best looking too) so that is a correct strategy. 

WRONG

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That was a long post so I didn’t quote it, but I see a theme Cadillac Catera (Opel Omega), STS, DTS, CTS, XLR, ATS are all gone or failed.  Throw SRX that was rear drive and now a front drive XT5.  XTS too, 8 dead name plates in 20 years.  

We've stated this ad nauseum.   And it really proves nothing.   

And more name changes are to come.  The EVs at Cadillac will have proper names. The Escalade shal;; remain Escalade.

The 2 steps forward 3 steps back at Cadillac is real. Fair enough.  But, most of what you post is fiction loosely based on facts.

Mostly outdated opinions you still hold...

Mostly irrelevant and trivial nonsense you hold against GM but dont hold the same standards for Mercedes.  You give a pass to Mercedes.  

The CT4 ($32,995) correlates w/ the XT4 ($35,695) - which is Cadillac's competitor to German sub-entry CUVs like the GLB ($38,050).

OCN is correct on that prior post and CT4 and CT5 still ride on Alpha.  I think Cadillac knew they had to cut price to survive.  They made the right move pricing CT5 where they did.  CTS was dying in sales, a $10k price cut was needed or there was no point in continuing.   5-series size for 3-series money is the only strategy that worked for Cadillac in the past 25 years.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

2 good posts in a row and I think Genesis is aggressive and will have a 6 vehicle line that is pretty strong within a couple years.  The SUVs will be key.  The GV80 and G80 interiors seem very nice, new chassis, new engine, that is all good stuff.

But they are also going against the German big 3 pretty much head on.  You have to be on your A game and be relentless.  Keep in mind Audi has an SUV that does the Nurburgring 12 seconds slower than a C8 Corvette Z51.  Can Genesis get a GV80 near Corvette level performance?  
 

If Genesis is still going ahead w/ the coupe, then it'll be a 7 model lineup.

If the Mint and Essentia concepts get the greenlight, it would be 9, w/ likely another dedicated BEV or 2 added at a later date.

Wouldn't exactly say German Big 3, as least not here in the US.

For much of its run, the Genesis sedan/G80 has outsold the A6, and when the new model hits, should do so again, and the G90 has been outselling the A8.

Too early yet for Genesis to launch a performance division, so a Sport model/trim will have to do.

As the new G80 is getting a Sport trim, the GV80 may get one as well.

But something the size/weight of the GV80 is not really suited for performance as is the smaller GV70; think a 420+ HP GV70 should be enough power/performance to satisfy most.

For those who want more, there's the eGV70 (can't beat instant torque from a BEV system).

But the eGV70 (not being based on a dedicated BEV platform) likely won't have the performance chops of the dedicated EV Genesis CUV.

Like the production version of Kia's Imagine CUV, should have Taycan level performance (sub 3s 0-60 time) - using the same electric propulsion as the Porsche (Porsche and HMG both have an ownership stake in Rimac which oversees their performance electrics).

Would that be quick enough for you?

As already stated, the GV80 already has nearly 10k pre-orders.

Add a more powerful Sport trim and the electric - should attract more buyers.

The Q7 did 34.6k in sales last year.

Once the GV80 gets all its variations/powertrains, don't think 28k-32k in sales is unreasonable (assuming, of course, things get back to normal, or close to it).

Dang...

and here I am hoping the V80 will do well...in this segment, we need all the sedan help we can get.

While it doesn’t beat the best- it will offer another good o solid choice in the marketplace......

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Europeans beating America on fuel efficiency again?

WRONG,

Airbus just now has an efficient plant that beats the 777. 

BOEING has Built a far more efficient plane, the Dream Liner 787 that Airbus has NOTHING to compete with.

Airbus FAILED as they tried to beat the 747 and while building an 800 plus people carrying cesspool of germs in a plane a380 that is so INEFFICIENT that most plane companies are writing them off. Production is over, where the 747 is still in production.

So YOU ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG

Back to cars

Genesis:  starting something since time began!

Mercedes E450 sedan 4matic starts at $61,550, the G80 3.5 AWD starts at. $62,250. Mercedes has a longer options list that can push the price higher but that is pretty close pricing.  That G80 better be on point if they want E450 money for it.

Genesis sold over 7,500 G80s last month in Korea.

Think they'll be more than fine w/ the new G80.

That's more (about a 1k more) than all the Lexus GS sold here in 2018 and more than 2x what the GS did in sales last year.