So China will give probably zero percent loan to auto companies to push outside China. This makes sense and means that FCA could be China owned next year. Gonna be interesting as the Chinese are aggressive and clearly the Communist party wants their share of world control.

Be interesting to see how the US deals with this.

What ifs that just won't happen.  Replace FCA with GM, Ford, Mitsubishi, etc, etc, you have the same story.  Hey,, trump has already chased Focus production to China so by the time he is out of his first term all of our cars may come from China. 

Quote

 

"But in more recent years — through knowledge and expertise gained via joint ventures with the world's largest and most successful automakers — Chinese companies have closed the quality gap."

 

......... and by acquiring FCA they want to widen it again? ok....

1 hour ago, FAPTurbo said:

"But in more recent years — through knowledge and expertise gained via joint ventures with the world's largest and most successful automakers — Chinese companies have closed the quality gap."

......... and by acquiring FCA they want to widen it again? ok....

I would expect to see massive kill off by the Chinese as they buy up existing FCA, then tell each product line to use the following Chinese platforms and kill off the Fiat crap.

Jeep is moving forward with Grand Wagoner as a Hybrid so it can sell in China and I expect them to debut a Jeep GC Hybrid. 

I know many Jeep fans that would like a GC Hybrid, first 100 miles pure electric and then the generator kicks in to give you 400 miles more range still pure electric AWD system. I can see this selling very well.

This is why I am stumped as to why GM has not put the VOLT power train into each CUV line of products across all 4 families.

3 hours ago, FAPTurbo said:

......... and by acquiring FCA they want to widen it again? ok....

I don't know, they could make FCA somewhat competent in this department.

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

This is why I am stumped as to why GM has not put the VOLT power train into each CUV line of products across all 4 families.

 

We could do a series on why GM doesn't do what seems are obvious things, but it would likely never end.

Interesting...there is some plausibility to a Chinese company that has no presence here buying parts of FCA, seems more likely than an existing US market automaker that would have too much overlap. 

I couldn't see GM, Ford, the German big 3, or any of the Japanese or Korean car makers interested in FCA--they already have existing product lines that likely wouldn't be helped by adding Jeep or Ram. 

Maybe PSA?  Would give them a footprint in NA... 

I'd like to see CDJR return to US-based ownership, but can't see how that would happen...things didn't go so well under Cerebus...

27 minutes ago, William Maley said:

We could do a series on why GM doesn't do what seems are obvious things, but it would likely never end.

Talk about a great debate that would happen though!

I think you would do well to do a "Common Sense applications of Auto Technology that GM is missing out on!"

• Volt Power Train
• Bolt Power Train
• 110 versus powered USB ports everywhere
• Mini Stage Coach Doors with flip up glass versus full flip up auto tailgate
• HUD on every auto
• Aero applied to cars

List could go on, but a good write up with this as a starting point and then invite others to contribute what they think GM is missing or skipping on their auto's versus having tech in one auto, but not expanding to the whole company. Cool  

This is typical of China in that they cannot develop any major infrastructure on their own without the aid of outside (western) influence.  They need to buy existing platforms of production in order to learn how to make it work and then profit on the improvements.  This pattern of behavior is not limited to cars.  They have done it with oil and gas, stealth technology for the military, and even golf clubs and bowling balls.  China already owns MG and Volvo.  They might as well own FCA while they are at it.

41 minutes ago, aurora97 said:

This is typical of China in that they cannot develop any major infrastructure on their own without the aid of outside (western) influence.  They need to buy existing platforms of production in order to learn how to make it work and then profit on the improvements.  This pattern of behavior is not limited to cars.  They have done it with oil and gas, stealth technology for the military, and even golf clubs and bowling balls.  China already owns MG and Volvo.  They might as well own FCA while they are at it.

Do not forget Steel. After all they came to America, bought the steel plants, disassembled them part by part and shipped them back to China, rebuilt them and then made them better. Crazy, but it worked for them.

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/song/readings/inventions_timeline.htm

silk, ca. 1300 BCE	• 1300 BCE •	[received in the West, 552-54 CE]
folding umbrella (?)	• 300 BCE •	[received in the West, 1600s]
lodestone, 240 BCE	• 200 BCE •
shadow figures (?)	• 100 BCE •	[received in the West, after 1700]
	BE/BCE
lacquer	• 100 CE •	[received in the West, 1730]
		peach and apricot [earlier origins in China, but cannot be accurately dated]
paper, 105 CE		[received in the West, 1150]
tea, 264-273 CE	• 200 CE •	[received in the West, 1600s]
Word for porcelain first used	• 300 CE •	[produced in the West, 1709]
sedanchair	• 400 CE •	[received in the West, 1600s]
kite, 549	• 500 CE •	[received in the West, 1589]
		silk, 552-554 [in China, ca. 1300 BCE]
	• 600 CE •
playing cards	• 700 CE •	[received in the West, 1377]
dominoes
gunpowder (?)		[received in the West, 1330]
porcelain described, 851	• 800 CE •	[produced in the West, 1709]
oldest printed book, 868		[Bible printed in the West, 1456]
The Song Dynasty, 960-1279	• 900 •
movable type, 1041-1049	• 1000 •	[block printing in the West, 1423]
compass		[received in the West, 1190]
zinc used in coins, 1094-1098		[described in the West, 1500s; industrially produced, 1740]
		orange [earlier origins in China, but cannot be accurately dated]
	• 1100 •	paper, 1150 [in China, 105 CE]
explosives, 1161		[gunpowder and cannon in the West, 1330]
		compass, 1190 [in China, 1000s]
	• 1200 •
	• 1300 •	gunpowder and cannon, 1330 [in China, 700s]
		playing cards, 1377 [in China, 700s]
		lemon [earlier origins in China, but cannot be accurately dated]
	• 1400 •	block printing, 1423 [movable type in China, 1041-1049]
		Gutenberg's Bible, 1456 [China's first printed book, 868]
chaulmoogra oil and ephedrine described, 1552-1578	• 1500 •	[received in the West, after 1700s]
		zinc described [used in coins in China, 1094-1098]
		kite, 1589 [in China, 549 CE]
The use of the following also originated in China in early times, but cannot be accurately dated: peach, apricot, orange, lemon, pomelo, chrysanthemum, tea rose, camellia, azalea, China aster, gingko, "German silver," wallpaper, goldfish.	• 1600 •	sedanchair [in China, 400s CE]
		tea [in China, 264-273 CE]
		folding umbrella [in China, in the 300s BCE]
		wallpaper manufactured, 1688
	• 1700 •	porcelain, 1709 [in China, word first used, 300s CE; first described, 851 CE]
		lacquer produced, 1730 [in China, in the 100s CE]
		zinc in industrial production, 1740
		"German silver" production, 1750
		chrysanthemum, tea rose, camellia, azalea, China aster, grapefruit
		shadow figures [in China, in the 100s BCE]
		gingko, tung oil, soy bean
		ephedrine and chaulmoogra oil [described in China, 1552-1578]

- I find it funny when "the West" complains about China...and in the end...its about freakin' time "the West" has something technological to teach China....several millennia has passed when all "the West" ever did was learn from China!!!

The industrial revolution started (and is ending?) in the West.  Apart from gunpowder and noodles, what, as they would ask in "Life of Brian", have the Chinese done for us?

If this happens... another nail in America's industrial coffin.  And we have ourselves to blame.  No one else.

22 minutes ago, aurora97 said:

The industrial revolution started (and is ending?) in the West.  Apart from gunpowder and noodles, what, as they would ask in "Life of Brian", have the Chinese done for us?

Well...since they did invent playing cards...

Oh....and before there even was a place in the dessert called "the" Vegas which in Spanish is Las Vegas...

With this little gadget

You dont read Chinese?

BTW: Im keeping this STRICTLY DIRECT NORTH AMERICAN CHINESE INFLUENCES...

 BEGAT

Is this OK with you?

Because the very essence of our North American existence is DIRECTLY related to the Chinese...

32 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

If this happens... another nail in America's industrial coffin.  And we have ourselves to blame.  No one else.

Instead of us whining about the Chinese...maybe we should reflect upon what BLU just said and maybe just try to prevent more bleeding...

The British lost their automobile industry...its only fake national pride that keeps them going...

Maybe us as North Americans should take a good hard look in the mirror, identify the problem and fix what is ailing us!!!

It is hard to do because the truth hurts...its easier to blame somebody else though....

And this could turn political, racial, educational, social, rational and any other kind of  "-----al"  we could think of because in my opinion...there is more than one problem wrong with our North American society!!!

Dont look now guys...but many other world markets have surpassed us in anything remotely related to Americana of cocktails and dreams...

The only thing we rule is garbage TV where everybody thinks they  could be a star of some sort...

Big Brother

American Idol

Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump becoming Presidents of our nation...

the OJ Simpson trial and everything that is related to that such as the Kardashians and BLM...

School and mall shootings and cops killing people off of burnt headlight stops and routine check-ups

thug culture and the dummying down of our educational system...

12 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump becoming Presidents of our nation...

This could be a very good thing...or it could be a very bad thing...

The Hollywood glitz of it all is the bad thing...and THAT is what our society actually takes to when it comes to those two Presidents...

PS:

Ill continue being a douche...

Speaking of gunpowder and the Old West...which is a BIG part of American history with the end of the Civil war and all...

There was this too...you know...how America's first steps in becoming a world super power began...all coinciding with the industrial revolution...with the electrification of our North American world...

I repeat: the very essence of our North American existence is DIRECTLY related to the Chinese...

Chryco died in 2008-2009.

(Earlier than that if you wanna go further back to the merger of equals)

The FCA thing in hindsight just prolonged the agony...it was a good thing as many did not lose their jobs...it would have been disastrous...

Does it really matter who gets to say they own Chrysler, Dodge (and Dodge Trucks), Jeep at this point in time?

I think Sergio's chances for a sale go up if he can close Chrysler and or Dodge.  Then Alfa and Maserati can be it's own company and Sergio can head that, or even merge it back with Ferrari.  

The inherent problem with the Chinese acquiring all of this infrastructure is that they do not trust their own people with the knowledge needed to create it in the first place.  The printing press was a success in Europe because it allowed the introduction of Islamic texts and once-thought-lost Greek writings to many, many citizens.  Thus all of that new-found knowledge brought forth the Renaissance.  Eventually, the Industrial Revolution that brought forth the coal, steel, and automobile was caused from that cultural momentum.

China deliberately crushes any information and knowledge from outside their country.  The Great Firewall of China censors Google, Apple, Facebook, et al. and prohibits any chance of individuality among its people.  Yet another industrial engine (pun intended) will be had to continue their juggernaut all of at our expense.  We can't do anything about it because they already own the majority of the $20 Trillion in debt that we have accumulated.  Where is our cultural momentum now?

12 hours ago, dfelt said:

Do not forget Steel. After all they came to America, bought the steel plants, disassembled them part by part and shipped them back to China, rebuilt them and then made them better. Crazy, but it worked for them.

And others... the 3 steel plants in Cleveland (less than 10 miles from me) are owned by ArcelorMittal, a multinational of European and Indian origin... never saw anything like that in Arizona or Colorado, neat to drive by them, reminds me of as a kid living in Steubenville seeing the mills along the Ohio River and going to Pittsburgh...

The whole Chinese thing makes me wonder if it did not start with an advanced race visiting this planet, finding it nice and deciding to setup living here only to fall into decay and loose their advanced ways with their emperor system, etc.

Before god existed and Christ became all the rage and the bible was written by man, there was the Chinese and their advanced way of doing things. The time line I find interesting as you can look at many version and they all have one problem. The constant rediscovery of certain things like the Kite.

We have many unsolved advanced items found on this planet that carbon date back before Christ, his father Yahweh or god or Jehovah and all the manipulation of humanity by corrupt humans supposedly working for god and his church with a drive to take your hard earned money.

Aztec's, Peru, Egypt, the list goes on with many advances and some very strange unresolved old artifacts that make one wonder just what happened to these places? How did certain items come to be when Humans were so un-advanced?

From old Baghdad Batteries, to The Antikythera mechanism – a Greek ancient computer, The Sacsayhuaman walls and more. 

http://www.zmescience.com/other/most-amazing-unexplained-artifacts/

We must continue to challenge ourselves and get our butts off this rock to explore the universe. Otherwise we die. DC has proven this with the old stagnate keep it the same and do not work with each other thinking.

Maybe it is time for a new Revolution.

So to clear it up... FCA is really two main companies.  There is FCA the parent holding company, and two main subsidiaries.

FCA Italy - Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Fiat Professional, Lancia and the engine manufacturing subsidiary VM Motori (Think - EcoDiesel)

FCA US -  Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, and Ram, plus the Mopar service and parts organization

Maserati is its own directly under the FCA holding company. 

Sergio is not going to sell all of FCA. You get one guess on which subsidiary is getting sold off. 

From today's editorial board in the Wall Street Journal;

Trump’s China Trade Sally

Beijing steals U.S. business IP, but tariffs could backfire.

Donald Trump’s trade policy has been more measured than his campaign rhetoric, but on Monday he ramped up the pressure on China by ordering an investigation into its rampant theft of intellectual property from U.S. firms. The danger is that the stick the President is brandishing, Section 302(b) of the Trade Act of 1974, could harm efforts to open markets to American goods.

Mr. Trump is right that China is breaking the promises it made to enter the World Trade Organization in 2001. Instead of embracing freer trade, the country has turned in the direction of import-substitution under current leader Xi Jinping and predecessor Hu Jintao.

The “Made in China 2025” program that Mr. Xi started in 2015 aims to boost the Chinese-made content of manufactured products to 70% within eight years. It also calls for China to become the leader in 10 industries through state investment and closing off its market to foreign companies. The Obama Administration released a damning report in January on China’s mercantilist strategy to dominate the global semiconductor industry—to pick one example of the squeeze Beijing puts on U.S. companies.

China’s developed-country trading partners are united in believing that these practices are unacceptable, and Beijing has retreated somewhat in response to criticism. But history suggests it will continue to pressure auto makers and technology firms to hand over cutting-edge technology to the government and joint-venture partners.

The problem is that Section 302(b) is a blunderbuss weapon that could backfire because it allows the U.S. executive to play judge, jury and executioner, and take any action the President deems appropriate. In the 1980s the Reagan Administration used tariffs to counter Japan’s nontariff barriers and a rising bilateral trade deficit. Instead of opening Japan’s markets, the U.S. and Tokyo settled for managed trade in the likes of semiconductors, which divvied up market share and kept prices higher than they should have been.

That outcome was due in part to the lack of a binding mechanism to force Japan to follow international trade law. The conflicts of that era led to the 1995 creation of the WTO along with an appellate division that decides when countries have broken their treaty obligations.

So what would happen now if the Trump Administration raised duties on Chinese goods? First, Beijing could pose as the victim and bring the U.S. to the WTO. If the dispute escalated, companies on both sides would lose opportunities, consumers would pay more and the economies would slow down.

The conflict would also erode respect for the rules-based WTO system, which could work to China’s advantage. Beijing could use its position as the leading trade partner of East Asian nations to cement its pre-eminence in the region and marginalize the U.S. America’s trading relationships with allies would suffer. The U.S. thus has a strong interest in maintaining the rules-based trading system it helped to build.

The flip side of China’s trade surplus is the need to invest in foreign assets, and Beijing wants to diversify from U.S. Treasurys. The Trump Administration is rightly emphasizing reciprocal treatment, and regulations give it the power to hold up Chinese investment, especially in fields using advanced technology.

That suggests a more WTO-compliant way to retaliate if Beijing continues to restrict the ability of American companies to invest in China. If the U.S. and other developed countries work together on this issue, they can insist that Beijing follows the trade law it signed up to.

Ah, where to start....

Pretty sure they are not buying FCA for the product (maybe Jeep and RAM), but more for the network to get their products here. And with the downturn, now would be a good time to buy. Mr M doesn't hold any Trump card (lol) that will make him more money here. I expect China to get a pretty good deal on a has been company....though I would not expect it to last long. Those who wanted cheaper cars will get their wish.....which would not be good for any automaker......

Would like to hope that China does not get their hands on FCA, as the average consumer is braindead and will be cheap and shiny without question. That spells major trouble for GM, Honda, Toyota, and everyone else-we don't need a battle to the bottom here.......

8 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Ah, where to start....

 

Pretty sure they are not buying FCA for the product (maybe Jeep and RAM), but more for the network to get their products here. And with the downturn, now would be a good time to buy. Mr M doesn't hold any Trump card (lol) that will make him more money here. I expect China to get a pretty good deal on a has been company....though I would not expect it to last long. Those who wanted cheaper cars will get their wish.....which would not be good for any automaker......

Would like to hope that China does not get their hands on FCA, as the average consumer is braindead and will be cheap and shiny without question. That spells major trouble for GM, Honda, Toyota, and everyone else-we don't need a battle to the bottom here.......

The strangest possible part of the whole deal is that Jeep alone is supposed to be valued more than all 4 brands combined.... which means that investors see Chrysler, Dodge, and possibly Ram as negative value. 

Whatever company buys them is not going to be able to ax the other brands and rebuild the new network, but they will have to fill those brands with new product.  Sadly, at this point, any leadership would be better than the leadership FCA currently has. China may be Dodge and Chrysler's only hope.

If one needs an example of it actually working out well, all one needs to do is look at Volvo.  This is why I was surprised by Geely saying they weren't interested in FCA at this time. A brand lineup of Volvo at the top, Chrysler as mid-premium like Buick, Dodge as the family car, Ram, and Jeep could actually work.  Volvo has a fantastic, flexible new platform (One of the best on the market at the moment IMHO) in SPA that could conceivably be used for Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep.  Chrysler could go to China as a Buick competitor, Jeep is already there, ProMasters and City could be rebadged into Geely or Jeep for China.  When you start looking across the lineups, picturing the replacements using SPA and filling in some of the current gaps, a Geely - Chrysler Group merger actually makes sense. 

On 8/14/2017 at 8:45 PM, ocnblu said:

If this happens... another nail in America's industrial coffin.  And we have ourselves to blame.  No one else.

Quoted for truth!

Dongfeng also denied a purchase of FCA

http://www.motortrend.com/news/dongfeng-doesnt-want-buy-fiat-chrysler-either/

Im thinking Sergio bullshytted...again...to bring attention to himself...again...

These are desperate desperate times for Sergio...

Time is running out on Sergio...

8 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The strangest possible part of the whole deal is that Jeep alone is supposed to be valued more than all 4 brands combined.... which means that investors see Chrysler, Dodge, and possibly Ram as negative value. 

Whatever company buys them is not going to be able to ax the other brands and rebuild the new network, but they will have to fill those brands with new product.  Sadly, at this point, any leadership would be better than the leadership FCA currently has. China may be Dodge and Chrysler's only hope.

If one needs an example of it actually working out well, all one needs to do is look at Volvo.  This is why I was surprised by Geely saying they weren't interested in FCA at this time. A brand lineup of Volvo at the top, Chrysler as mid-premium like Buick, Dodge as the family car, Ram, and Jeep could actually work.  Volvo has a fantastic, flexible new platform (One of the best on the market at the moment IMHO) in SPA that could conceivably be used for Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep.  Chrysler could go to China as a Buick competitor, Jeep is already there, ProMasters and City could be rebadged into Geely or Jeep for China.  When you start looking across the lineups, picturing the replacements using SPA and filling in some of the current gaps, a Geely - Chrysler Group merger actually makes sense. 

True...I think Geely might be one that could work. I have to say I like what they have done with volvo....And the plan you mention would be a fine one.

Now as far a axing the brands, you have like 4 cars between two brands....pretty sure anyone could fill the gap......

9 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The strangest possible part of the whole deal is that Jeep alone is supposed to be valued more than all 4 brands combined.... which means that investors see Chrysler, Dodge, and possibly Ram as negative value. 

Whatever company buys them is not going to be able to ax the other brands and rebuild the new network, but they will have to fill those brands with new product.  Sadly, at this point, any leadership would be better than the leadership FCA currently has. China may be Dodge and Chrysler's only hope.

If one needs an example of it actually working out well, all one needs to do is look at Volvo.  This is why I was surprised by Geely saying they weren't interested in FCA at this time. A brand lineup of Volvo at the top, Chrysler as mid-premium like Buick, Dodge as the family car, Ram, and Jeep could actually work.  Volvo has a fantastic, flexible new platform (One of the best on the market at the moment IMHO) in SPA that could conceivably be used for Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep.  Chrysler could go to China as a Buick competitor, Jeep is already there, ProMasters and City could be rebadged into Geely or Jeep for China.  When you start looking across the lineups, picturing the replacements using SPA and filling in some of the current gaps, a Geely - Chrysler Group merger actually makes sense. 

1 hour ago, daves87rs said:

True...I think Geely might be one that could work. I have to say I like what they have done with volvo....And the plan you mention would be a fine one.

 

Now as far a axing the brands, you have like 4 cars between two brands....pretty sure anyone could fill the gap......

I think no one will really know who in China if anyone is really going to buy FCA US. If it happens it will surprise everyone.

1 hour ago, daves87rs said:

True...I think Geely might be one that could work. I have to say I like what they have done with volvo....And the plan you mention would be a fine one.

 

Now as far a axing the brands, you have like 4 cars between two brands....pretty sure anyone could fill the gap......

True, but one has to remember to think globally. Dodge never had much of a market outside of North America.  

Chrysler has been in Europe, they sell an oddly high number of Town and Country minivans there. It's just about the most common North American built, US branded vehicle I see there. Jeep is in China, neither Chrysler nor Dodge are. They could, and already have plans to send Chrysler to China starting next year.  Chrysler will be priced and positioned like Buick. Under Geely, they'd keep the Pacifica. 300 and 200 go on SPA as Lacrosse and Regal competitors. Add a crossover or 3 and the lineup is pretty full for both China and US. SPA was designed from the start to be a plug-in hybrid, so it would go over well with China's electric car goals.

No need to bring Dodge as a brand over to China, Geely is already an established brand, so just swap badges on which ever cars get shipped whichever direction. Dodge US could use some lower cost platform shared with Geely for the smaller stuff and the Volvo SPA for the Durango. Charger and Challenger would get axed under this scenario. Replacements for Dart, Avenger, Journey, and Nitro (FWD) could come from Geely.  This also gets Geely into the South America market via a reputable brand.

RAM and Jeep just keep on keepin on. JGC would probably need to move to SPA, just let the Americans make it trail rated. They'd eventually have to replace the Fiat based Jeeps, but they'd have 5 or 6 years to get that done. 

It's not impossible to imagine Volvo's new factory spitting out S90s, 300c, Durango and JGCs.

*Sorry if I'm rambling, hardly slept this week*

49 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

True, but one has to remember to think globally. Dodge never had much of a market outside of North America.  

Chrysler has been in Europe, they sell an oddly high number of Town and Country minivans there. It's just about the most common North American built, US branded vehicle I see there. Jeep is in China, neither Chrysler nor Dodge are. They could, and already have plans to send Chrysler to China starting next year.  Chrysler will be priced and positioned like Buick. Under Geely, they'd keep the Pacifica. 300 and 200 go on SPA as Lacrosse and Regal competitors. Add a crossover or 3 and the lineup is pretty full for both China and US. SPA was designed from the start to be a plug-in hybrid, so it would go over well with China's electric car goals.

No need to bring Dodge as a brand over to China, Geely is already an established brand, so just swap badges on which ever cars get shipped whichever direction. Dodge US could use some lower cost platform shared with Geely for the smaller stuff and the Volvo SPA for the Durango. Charger and Challenger would get axed under this scenario. Replacements for Dart, Avenger, Journey, and Nitro (FWD) could come from Geely.  This also gets Geely into the South America market via a reputable brand.

RAM and Jeep just keep on keepin on. JGC would probably need to move to SPA, just let the Americans make it trail rated. They'd eventually have to replace the Fiat based Jeeps, but they'd have 5 or 6 years to get that done. 

It's not impossible to imagine Volvo's new factory spitting out S90s, 300c, Durango and JGCs.

*Sorry if I'm rambling, hardly slept this week*

Nope, makes perfect sense to me. If it goes Geely, I like this.......

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

 

I think no one will really know who in China if anyone is really going to buy FCA US. If it happens it will surprise everyone.

True....it's all up in the air right now....