Marchionne Still Dreams of A FCA-GM Merger

Just now, Stew said:

Sure you do.  i am sure you just know tons of people with 500s....  Right.  He has also had to take it in and have the ECU reflashed for engine and transmission issues.    Hey, were the 500s the NA, turbo, or Abarth models?  the Masers all the same V8?  What engine were these Grand Cherokees running as from everything i know the Pentastar, Hemi, and even  the 3.0 diesel are pretty bulletproof..... 

The GC was a V6... the 500s I don't.. Don't care. They are bitch cars. The Maseratis were GrandT with a 4.7L and Quatroporte Twin Turbo 6. What's your point. 

2 minutes ago, Stew said:

And how many miles on each one?  Was all maintenance done as stated and how many miles on each failure?

LOL, but not the mix match of materials.  My Camry and bug both are consistent throughout the cabin and my Camry is even a base LE. 

My Impala interior is quite consistent.. so is my V, Vette, and Yukon.. admittedly.. I wouldn't buy a base car of any make so what the fuck do I care

4 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

The GC was a V6... the 500s I don't.. Don't care. They are bitch cars. The Maseratis were GrandT with a 4.7L and Quatroporte Twin Turbo 6. What's your point. 

My Impala interior is quite consistent.. so is my V, Vette, and Yukon.. admittedly.. I wouldn't buy a base car of any make so what the f@#k do I care

And you do nothing to disprove my point then.  The vast marority are NOT buying the top models. 

"Consumer Reports does not recommend any Fiat models."

"All Fiat Chrysler brands finished in the bottom third of the rankings, with Fiat coming last," Consumer Reports wrote in a statement.

" "The reasons why most FCA products are at the bottom of our Ratings is mostly due to poor reliability and sub-par performance in our testing. Only the Durango is recommended," "

"with unresponsive touchscreens, dysfunctional multi-use controllers,"

"I'd be sick of posting about Jennifer Lopez/Fiat disaster if it didn't keep being hilarious. The latest update? The Fiat 500 she wasn't actually driving broke down during filming. This is getting too easy."

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Not sure why but there is just something coarse, rough just off about the sound of the C63.

CTS-V

Love the sound of this over the C63

Europe does seem to like American fast auto's.

 

I'm with @Stew on this one. The AMG motors just sound freakin NASTY! I love them so much. They are enough to easily persuade me from an ATS-V to a C63.

1 hour ago, Stew said:

What are the exact reliability issues with the current Fiats and what matters?  the last Alfas sold here were 2 decades ago, Domestic manufacturers weren't exactly setting the reliability world on fire in the 80s and 90s (unless you are talking about Ford's huge recall for actual ignition fires).  Besides this isn't exactly Italian only.  it uses the bullet proof ZF 8 speed and the turbo 4 AND the platform were designed partially here to underpin new Dodges and jeeps.   Like I said, assumptions......

Wrong C63, that looks o be a last gen black series. 

First post the video of the C63 you want to compare to the V as sounding so sweet. The black edition is what comes up as their audio standard and so far not impressed.

In regards to Fiat, unlike the US auto makers who worked to build better and better auto's and have proven themselves at least GM and Ford has at getting better, Fiat brought in garbage and still building garbage. They ignored their history and clearly felt that the current buyers would not be aware of their piss poor track record.

Regardless of the model of 500, there is a ton of proof of all the motor, transmission, electrical problems even the 2017 models still have.

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Fiat/500/

http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/forumdisplay.php?46-Fiat-500-Issues-and-concerns

Forum is an amazing read of people who love the quirky little tin can but hate all the issues they have had with the auto.

Examples of compliants on the auto for just 2014 alone:

http://www.arfc.org/complaints/2014/fiat/500/engine/problem.aspx

2016 if you want something current

http://www.arfc.org/complaints/2016/fiat/500/

Love the graph on True Delta that shows the areas of problems:

http://www.truedelta.com/FIAT-500/problems-1014

Electrical / AC is first place

Body / Trim is second place 

Engine third place

Suspension fourth place

Transmission fifth place

In regards to Alfa, Build quality from end to end is still their number 1 problem not to mention just getting the new Alfa's to start and not stall out according to owners.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/alfa-romeo/giulietta/reliability

My coworker who bought it as he loved the design has had enough of it spending most time in the shop. He has started the paperwork with Washington state to have the auto declared a lemon and force the dealer to refund 100% the money back. 

https://www.startmycar.com/alfa-romeo/156/problems

http://4c-forums.com/

Seems no matter what model you have Quality is still a big issue and I doubt Fiat / Alfa will still be here in the states by 2025 with a piss poor product line.

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

"Consumer Reports does not recommend any Fiat models."

"All Fiat Chrysler brands finished in the bottom third of the rankings, with Fiat coming last," Consumer Reports wrote in a statement.

" "The reasons why most FCA products are at the bottom of our Ratings is mostly due to poor reliability and sub-par performance in our testing. Only the Durango is recommended," "

"with unresponsive touchscreens, dysfunctional multi-use controllers,"

"I'd be sick of posting about Jennifer Lopez/Fiat disaster if it didn't keep being hilarious. The latest update? The Fiat 500 she wasn't actually driving broke down during filming. This is getting too easy."

I'm with @Stew on this one. The AMG motors just sound freakin NASTY! I love them so much. They are enough to easily persuade me from an ATS-V to a C63.

I think everyone has some touchscreen issues, but again, no specifics.  the article even contradicts itself by saying no models are recommended and then goes to say the Durango is.  Not that it makes the slightest bit of sense why the Durango would be an the basically identical mechaniclly grand Cherokee isn't  It is like when they recommended the Corolla, but not the Prism even hough the only difference was the badge. 

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

First post the video of the C63 you want to compare to the V as sounding so sweet. The black edition is what comes up as their audio standard and so far not impressed.

In regards to Fiat, unlike the US auto makers who worked to build better and better auto's and have proven themselves at least GM and Ford has at getting better, Fiat brought in garbage and still building garbage. They ignored their history and clearly felt that the current buyers would not be aware of their piss poor track record.

Regardless of the model of 500, there is a ton of proof of all the motor, transmission, electrical problems even the 2017 models still have.

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Fiat/500/

http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/forumdisplay.php?46-Fiat-500-Issues-and-concerns

Forum is an amazing read of people who love the quirky little tin can but hate all the issues they have had with the auto.

Examples of compliants on the auto for just 2014 alone:

http://www.arfc.org/complaints/2014/fiat/500/engine/problem.aspx

2016 if you want something current

http://www.arfc.org/complaints/2016/fiat/500/

Love the graph on True Delta that shows the areas of problems:

http://www.truedelta.com/FIAT-500/problems-1014

Electrical / AC is first place

Body / Trim is second place 

Engine third place

Suspension fourth place

Transmission fifth place

 

In regards to Alfa, Build quality from end to end is still their number 1 problem not to mention just getting the new Alfa's to start and not stall out according to owners.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/alfa-romeo/giulietta/reliability

My coworker who bought it as he loved the design has had enough of it spending most time in the shop. He has started the paperwork with Washington state to have the auto declared a lemon and force the dealer to refund 100% the money back. 

https://www.startmycar.com/alfa-romeo/156/problems

http://4c-forums.com/

Seems no matter what model you have Quality is still a big issue and I doubt Fiat / Alfa will still be here in the states by 2025 with a piss poor product line.

Dude, those aren't even from this Gulietta, not even remotely considerably even usable to judge reliability of the new one. The whole thing is about the last gen model never even offered in the US.  And what Alfa does your friend have?

I love the manual control of the exhaust system. 

I

Also got to compare to the Correct Caddy.  the ATS V, not CTS, is it's competitor. 

We don't know what Alfa Romeo reliability will be like. Ow since it just went on sale.  The problem is neither do the potential buyers.  People buying sport sedans and soon Alfa will be in sport crossover, trust the Germans, they know what they are getting.   If you buy a Jaguar or Alfa Romeo it is a gamble, you aren't sure what you are getting.

50 minutes ago, Stew said:

What engine were these Grand Cherokees running as from everything i know the Pentastar, Hemi, and even  the 3.0 diesel are pretty bulletproof..... 

As far as I know, it isn't a single engine or transmission issue its everything else that breaks and goes wrong on them.

59 minutes ago, Stew said:

My Camry and bug both are consistent throughout the cabin and my Camry is even a base LE. 

Have you not been in or seen a loaded Camry then? Saying the base model has different(lower quality) interior materials than the top of the line spec'd cars is one of the most obvious things ever stated.

Golfs are the same way. "S" does not have the same interior as a GTI or R.

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

As far as I know, it isn't a single engine or transmission issue its everything else that breaks and goes wrong on them.

But the basic suspension, infotainment systems, etc, etc are shared with the both.  It makes no sense.

And in the example of the Corolla and Prism, everything was identical, even the plant and people building them.  LITERALLY the only difference was the brand badging. 

37 minutes ago, Stew said:

I think everyone has some touchscreen issues, but again, no specifics.  the article even contradicts itself by saying no models are recommended and then goes to say the Durango is.  Not that it makes the slightest bit of sense why the Durango would be an the basically identical mechaniclly grand Cherokee isn't  It is like when they recommended the Corolla, but not the Prism even hough the only difference was the badge. 

Those are snips from multiple websites.

Again, I don't think most of their faults are in the engine or transmission.

And an issue with posting from forums is I have yet to find a single one for any model were woners posting about good experiences and not the bad ones.  Nature of the beast. 

oh, same thing happened with the Corolla clone Nova of the 80s.  Only difference was the badge, yet the Corolla was recommendd3ed and the Nova wasn't. 

Well, apparently they have a reputation to build because I'd never seriously consider a Fiat or Alfa until there are POSITIVE reliability reports out for them.

Has Italy EVER made a car that people said was reliable?

1 minute ago, Stew said:

And an issue with posting from forums is I have yet to find a single one for any model were woners posting about good experiences and not the bad ones.  Nature of the beast. 

 

oh, same thing happened with the Corolla clone Nova of the 80s.  Only difference was the badge, yet the Corolla was recommendd3ed and the Nova wasn't. 

I've talked to two people on a private Facebook group that they were constantly in the shop with their 500's. Literally, once every month MAYBE two months until they got rid of them they were in the shop for something not working. They loved them when they worked but they never worked.

22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Well, apparently they have a reputation to build because I'd never seriously consider a Fiat or Alfa until there are POSITIVE reliability reports out for them.

Has Italy EVER made a car that people said was reliable?

I've talked to two people on a private Facebook group that they were constantly in the shop with their 500's. Literally, once every month MAYBE two months until they got rid of them they were in the shop for something not working. They loved them when they worked but they never worked.

500 is an old design, a lot older than it's intro here with next to no real updates.  A lot of Italian cars are designed for style and basically just that.  my hope is that with the underpinnings, engine, and transmission (well it is the 8 speed ZF so we know it is good) set to underpin more mainstream cars and SUVs that a lot of work has went into the reliability.  I do worry about the 2.9TT V6 because can you imagine the boost that is need to make 505 HP from 2.9 liters?   I know a few people with Focuses and Fiestas that are just like what you described above with the 500s and all have traded for Camrys of all things.  Most had multiple transmission failures. 

In my flip flop of a mind I am considering trading the bug in 6 months to a year, but I am not looking at FCA, Ford, or GM.  I am interested in the new Civic SI if rices stay close to the last model.  Heck, maybe even just a coupe 1.5T EX, with the manual of course, since they are basically as quick as the last SI (but I don't think they have the limited slip?) 

1 hour ago, Stew said:

Dude, those aren't even from this Gulietta, not even remotely considerably even usable to judge reliability of the new one. The whole thing is about the last gen model never even offered in the US.  And what Alfa does your friend have?

My coworker bought his 4C from the Kirkland Dealership, much like the one they have on their showroom floor.

http://www.fiatofkirkland.com/new-Seattle-2017-Alfa+Romeo-4C+Coupe-Base-ZARBAAA45HM222427

Loved it when he test drove it and I think was crazy as he paid MSRP, but since then the last month it has sat in the shop waiting for a variety of parts as he was given a loaner from the lot and not even an Alfa, they gave him a challenger which he says is fun but to bloated of a car for him to drive. History has repeated itself with their cars just not holding up.

The links just continue to show that from Europe to America, Alfa and Fiat have not changed from being garbage auto's.

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

My coworker bought his 4C from the Kirkland Dealership, much like the one they have on their showroom floor.

http://www.fiatofkirkland.com/new-Seattle-2017-Alfa+Romeo-4C+Coupe-Base-ZARBAAA45HM222427

Loved it when he test drove it and I think was crazy as he paid MSRP, but since then the last month it has sat in the shop waiting for a variety of parts as he was given a loaner from the lot and not even an Alfa, they gave him a challenger which he says is fun but to bloated of a car for him to drive. History has repeated itself with their cars just not holding up.

The links just continue to show that from Europe to America, Alfa and Fiat have not changed from being garbage auto's.

Who honestly expected the 4C to be reliable?  High boost turbo, less than great DCT, everything removed in an attempt to save weight, 2 totally different products that literally share not one single thing. 

9 minutes ago, Stew said:

500 is an old design, a lot older than it's intro here with next to no real updates. 

So? That doesn't excuse it for being sh!t.

10 minutes ago, Stew said:

  I know a few people with Focuses and Fiestas that are just like what you described above with the 500s

Yeah, there have been A LOT of people who don't like the DTC in them. But that has nothing to do with Fiat, Alfa, or FCA as a whole. Sounds like a little side step action..  

I'd assume the EX would not have a limited slip but they might have "torque vectoring" what uses the brakes(like Ford does..*rolls eyes*) because it's much cheaper.

8 minutes ago, Stew said:

2 totally different products that literally share not one single thing. 

Except the company that "okays" everything.

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

So? That doesn't excuse it for being sh!t.

 

Yeah, there have been A LOT of people who don't like the DTC in them. But that has nothing to do with Fiat, Alfa, or FCA as a whole. Sounds like a little side step action..  

I'd assume the EX would not have a limited slip but they might have "torque vectoring" what uses the brakes(like Ford does..*rolls eyes*) because it's much cheaper.

I wasn't side-stepping, just pointing out it can happen with any ca make.  And they didn't just not like the DCT, hey literally had failures, some multiple at less than 100k miles. 

the bug has he brake based torque vectoring and that system at least works really well.  hell on he brakes, bu turns like magic and love it on quick left/right sweepers.  Hell on the front brakes though.....

1 hour ago, Stew said:

Who honestly expected the 4C to be reliable?  High boost turbo, less than great DCT, everything removed in an attempt to save weight, 2 totally different products that literally share not one single thing. 

It's an Alfa, stop moving the goal post to justify the 4 door sedan that no one can really expect to be any better based on history and existing products including the European links I posted that clearly shows both Products from Alfa as being garbage.

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

It's an Alfa, stop moving the goal post to justify the 4 door sedan that no one can really expect to be any better based on history and existing products including the European links I posted that clearly shows both Products from Alfa as being garbage.

You have shown NOTHING stating the new sedan is garbage and provide ZERO proof.  Again, this isn't related in any way to any previous Alfa.    You cannot say it is garbage or unreliable until there is stone cold evidence on the vehicle you are talking about.  You  are making assumptions and you know what they about assuming, right? 

So go buy an Alfa. Put-cho money where yo mouth is! You can be the first person in the history of humans to buy a reliable Italian car.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

So go buy an Alfa. Put-cho money where yo mouth is! You can be the first person in the history of humans to buy a reliable Italian car.

He won't.. he will simply continue to tell us how great it is.. how great a fuckin 500 is.. .. and never ever go out and take the RISK.. cause its a big RISK.. himself. 

Stewy my boy.. after 12 years of owning Cadillacs and 8 of those years with VSeries... all Hi-Po.. all abused by luxury car standards by Moi.. all gorgeous, all reliable.. if my only complaint was the freaking Head unit then I think I'd be quite alright. As it stands my biggest complaint about all my Caddys is that eventually.. they get dirty.. and I hate dust on my freakin sexy babes 

Oh. and 

Typically... no MOSTLY means:  

1 hour ago, Stew said:

You have shown NOTHING stating the new sedan is garbage and provide ZERO proof.  Again, this isn't related in any way to any previous Alfa.    You cannot say it is garbage or unreliable until there is stone cold evidence on the vehicle you are talking about.  You  are making assumptions and you know what they about assuming, right? 

I am happy with my ASSumption. Yes It can make an ASS out of you. History of Italy and their heavy handed Socialist system and Unions is laziness. I have done much business with Italy and so far, every time I get into bed with an Italian business it is nothing short of a nightmare of garbage quality. I have finally decided nothing short of being paid millions will make me do business with Italy. I take asian, German and especially American built products over Italy any day.

History of working on Italian auto's has proven to be garbage. Current 4C is garbage. There is no reason to expect anything better from the Giulia.

Just gonna weigh in on the C63 exhaust- it sounds wretched. Broken, raspy, tinny, just awful. It sounds more like its running poorly than a performance model. ATS-V, for a factory car, is decent- and much smoother. The c63 driver-controlled exhaust is a neat gimmick tho (Dodge/Plymouth had that like 50 years ago).

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

I am happy with my ASSumption. Yes It can make an ASS out of you. History of Italy and their heavy handed Socialist system and Unions is laziness. I have done much business with Italy and so far, every time I get into bed with an Italian business it is nothing short of a nightmare of garbage quality. I have finally decided nothing short of being paid millions will make me do business with Italy. I take asian, German and especially American built products over Italy any day.

History of working on Italian auto's has proven to be garbage. Current 4C is garbage. There is no reason to expect anything better from the Giulia.

Fiat = Fix It Again Tony

Even Ferrari while better is still a major project and cost to maintain due to the engineering involved. 

Lambo is pretty good now since it is more German than Italian. 

Cars from Italy have improved but so has everyone else. I have has to deal with the rust and engine issues. The only thing worse may be some French cars or a Lada. The Lada was if you have never seen one was a Russian built Fiat. It almost made a Yugo appear good. We had a customer with one. It was not around long as it had too many issues. He bought it in Canada new. 

17 hours ago, Stew said:

You have shown NOTHING stating the new sedan is garbage and provide ZERO proof.  Again, this isn't related in any way to any previous Alfa.    You cannot say it is garbage or unreliable until there is stone cold evidence on the vehicle you are talking about.  You  are making assumptions and you know what they about assuming, right? 

On the flip side, you have shown nothing that proves that Fiat/Alfa are anything close to reliable cars. All the evidence points to the contrary so the burden of proof clearly falls on you to show that they are not unreliable piles. 

On 3/9/2017 at 11:43 AM, Stew said:

I love the manual control of the exhaust system. 

Quick point of fact..  The CTS-V and ATSV both have manual operation of exhaust note thru Modes. SPORT and TRACK are way more aggressive than touring and the rest. Blip of a button easy

On 3/9/2017 at 11:43 AM, Stew said:

I love the manual control of the exhaust system. 

Quick point of fact..  The CTS-V and ATSV both have manual operation of exhaust note thru Modes. SPORT and TRACK are way more aggressive than touring and the rest. Blip of a button easy

On 3/9/2017 at 11:43 AM, Stew said:

I love the manual control of the exhaust system. 

Quick point of fact..  The CTS-V and ATSV both have manual operation of exhaust note thru Modes. SPORT and TRACK are way more aggressive than touring and the rest. Blip of a button easy

On 3/10/2017 at 0:06 PM, Stew said:

You have shown NOTHING stating the new sedan is garbage and provide ZERO proof.  Again, this isn't related in any way to any previous Alfa.    You cannot say it is garbage or unreliable until there is stone cold evidence on the vehicle you are talking about.  You  are making assumptions and you know what they about assuming, right? 

Fine, you want proof, here is a nice list of stories about product quality problems with the  Giulia.

http://dailysunknoxville.com/2017-alfa-romeo-giulia-what-a-shame/92007937

http://jalopnik.com/the-alfa-romeo-giulia-is-off-to-a-rough-start-1776852795

http://www.giuliaforums.com/forum/329-2017-alfa-romeo-giulia-reviews/2482-issues.html

http://fcauthority.com/2016/03/alfa-romeo-admits-quality-issues-delayed-launch-of-giulia-sedan/

https://lockerdome.com/7470052068821057/8741690316072980

http://fcauthority.com/2016/05/the-sunday-times-blasts-alfa-romeo-giulia-over-quality-flaws/

End result is that they take a few of these auto's on the road to show it off and end up having to remove one because the Nav / Info system dies and takes out the whole car. Another is allowed to be driven by journalist and it has a engine warning light on the whole time with Alfa saying to ignore it. Third Auto had electrical issues that were only fixed when you came to a stop and turned off and turned on the car again. 

Alfa is trying to compare this auto to the Germans, Asians and Americans and yet they allow the press to drive garbage auto's.

Yes I also find it interesting how some of these press people talk about the tuning of the chassis and driving ability, yet how far does that really go when the rest of the auto has nothing but problems.

History is how you gauge a company that has not been in the local market and worked to rebuild their reputation like FORD or GM has done.

You come into the market and better damn well have a solid end to end home run auto to sell otherwise you set yourself up for judging based on past history and when the new models are nothing but problems, you have already failed long term.

Style look alone does not make an auto a winner!

On 3/10/2017 at 3:21 PM, ccap41 said:

So go buy an Alfa. Put-cho money where yo mouth is! You can be the first person in the history of humans to buy a reliable Italian car.

On 3/10/2017 at 4:45 PM, Cmicasa the Great said:

He won't.. he will simply continue to tell us how great it is.. how great a f@#kin 500 is.. .. and never ever go out and take the RISK.. cause its a big RISK.. himself. 

Stewy my boy.. after 12 years of owning Cadillacs and 8 of those years with VSeries... all Hi-Po.. all abused by luxury car standards by Moi.. all gorgeous, all reliable.. if my only complaint was the freaking Head unit then I think I'd be quite alright. As it stands my biggest complaint about all my Caddys is that eventually.. they get dirty.. and I hate dust on my freakin sexy babes 

Oh. and 

Typically... no MOSTLY means:  

On 3/10/2017 at 4:56 PM, dfelt said:

I am happy with my ASSumption. Yes It can make an ASS out of you. History of Italy and their heavy handed Socialist system and Unions is laziness. I have done much business with Italy and so far, every time I get into bed with an Italian business it is nothing short of a nightmare of garbage quality. I have finally decided nothing short of being paid millions will make me do business with Italy. I take asian, German and especially American built products over Italy any day.

History of working on Italian auto's has proven to be garbage. Current 4C is garbage. There is no reason to expect anything better from the Giulia.

Ah, but the big difference here is that I am NOT saying it will be reliable, you guys are just pissy because I am not saying it will NOT be reliable.  If it ends up being junk I am good, if it ends up being good, then you all get to look like ASSES.  What I have seen from the latest GM and Ford, they are nothing to write home about in the reliability department, unless, of course, you are too blind to notice it.  Honestly, my next cars in a few years are looking like they will be a TNG Camry XSE V6 and the newest Civic SI.  I never thought I would say that, but I am too old to be putting money into little issues. 

On 3/11/2017 at 2:54 PM, dfelt said:

Fine, you want proof, here is a nice list of stories about product quality problems with the  Giulia.

http://dailysunknoxville.com/2017-alfa-romeo-giulia-what-a-shame/92007937

http://jalopnik.com/the-alfa-romeo-giulia-is-off-to-a-rough-start-1776852795

http://www.giuliaforums.com/forum/329-2017-alfa-romeo-giulia-reviews/2482-issues.html

http://fcauthority.com/2016/03/alfa-romeo-admits-quality-issues-delayed-launch-of-giulia-sedan/

https://lockerdome.com/7470052068821057/8741690316072980

http://fcauthority.com/2016/05/the-sunday-times-blasts-alfa-romeo-giulia-over-quality-flaws/

End result is that they take a few of these auto's on the road to show it off and end up having to remove one because the Nav / Info system dies and takes out the whole car. Another is allowed to be driven by journalist and it has a engine warning light on the whole time with Alfa saying to ignore it. Third Auto had electrical issues that were only fixed when you came to a stop and turned off and turned on the car again. 

Alfa is trying to compare this auto to the Germans, Asians and Americans and yet they allow the press to drive garbage auto's.

Yes I also find it interesting how some of these press people talk about the tuning of the chassis and driving ability, yet how far does that really go when the rest of the auto has nothing but problems.

History is how you gauge a company that has not been in the local market and worked to rebuild their reputation like FORD or GM has done.

You come into the market and better damn well have a solid end to end home run auto to sell otherwise you set yourself up for judging based on past history and when the new models are nothing but problems, you have already failed long term.

Style look alone does not make an auto a winner!

LMAO, it isn't like the Germans are exactly reliability queens.........   Hell, most luxury cars are leased so it seems like most are designed for the first 30k miles, sans my brother's ATS whioch is having quite a few issues before it even hits 10k. 

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:54 PM, dfelt said:

Fine, you want proof, here is a nice list of stories about product quality problems with the  Giulia.

End result is that they take a few of these auto's on the road to show it off and end up having to remove one because the Nav / Info system dies and takes out the whole car. Another is allowed to be driven by journalist and it has a engine warning light on the whole time with Alfa saying to ignore it. Third Auto had electrical issues that were only fixed when you came to a stop and turned off and turned on the car again. 

Alfa is trying to compare this auto to the Germans, Asians and Americans and yet they allow the press to drive garbage auto's.

Yes I also find it interesting how some of these press people talk about the tuning of the chassis and driving ability, yet how far does that really go when the rest of the auto has nothing but problems.

History is how you gauge a company that has not been in the local market and worked to rebuild their reputation like FORD or GM has done.

You come into the market and better damn well have a solid end to end home run auto to sell otherwise you set yourself up for judging based on past history and when the new models are nothing but problems, you have already failed long term.

Style look alone does not make an auto a winner!

LOL @

"However, in other areas, Alfa Romeo seems like a stuck record, its needle unable to play past a reputation for poor quality.

One Giulia was wheeled off like an A&E casualty after the infotainment system failed. Another I drove had an engine warning light screaming for attention from the instrument binnacle, and the cruise control refused to switch on.

A third car tested suffered a frozen infotainment system, which could only be brought back to life by stopping the car and switching the ignition off and back on, and at times some air vents stopped blowing air whilst others continued."

22 minutes ago, Stew said:

LMAO, it isn't like the Germans are exactly reliability queens.........   Hell, most luxury cars are leased so it seems like most are designed for the first 30k miles, sans my brother's ATS which is having quite a few issues before it even hits 10k. 

I don't think I've read about a BMW, Benz, or Audi that the vents stopped blowing air...on a brand new car...

And the ATS doesn't sell.. They screwed the pooch and with abysmal sales it shows. I love the ATS but obviously it isn't a homerun in the market.

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

LOL @

"However, in other areas, Alfa Romeo seems like a stuck record, its needle unable to play past a reputation for poor quality.

One Giulia was wheeled off like an A&E casualty after the infotainment system failed. Another I drove had an engine warning light screaming for attention from the instrument binnacle, and the cruise control refused to switch on.

A third car tested suffered a frozen infotainment system, which could only be brought back to life by stopping the car and switching the ignition off and back on, and at times some air vents stopped blowing air whilst others continued."

I don't think I've read about a BMW, Benz, or Audi that the vents stopped blowing air...on a brand new car...

And the ATS doesn't sell.. They screwed the pooch and with abysmal sales it shows. I love the ATS but obviously it isn't a homerun in the market.

LOL,  I haven't read anything like that from he major mags who had no issues, but admitted it is a wait and see proposition.  As for Benz and BMW, yes, they have their gremlins, some far worse than not blowing air through the vents. 

22 minutes ago, Stew said:

LOL,  I haven't read anything like that from he major mags who had no issues, but admitted it is a wait and see proposition.  As for Benz and BMW, yes, they have their gremlins, some far worse than not blowing air through the vents. 

Wait and see? Dude that was like QUICK FAST AND IN A HURRY.. as this quote was taken from a review last year. This one too:

Quote

One colleague suffered jammed parking sensors, so they drove around with the car going “beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep”.

To the ATS. The ATS quality issue has been most limited to issues with CUE. Every person I have met or kno that has had an ATS has had zero issues with them outside of a slight learning curve in CUE. Once they drove the car, read the manual, and fiddled with it for a few weeks.. their complaints died out. Yes.. getting acclimated to a new UI is not as easy and can be more frustrating than just hopping in and pushing buttons and turning knobs as had been done for the past 100 years. Go figure. 

ATS sales. The car is a first.. introduced in a down market for CARS, and with only two variants where as the mainstay has like a billion. No marketing except in year one.. and a black eye because it has the backseat of a small compact luxury car while being.. a small compact luxury car.  I like how people try and act as tho the ATS some how is a bad car when technically a similar launched vehicle (SRX-XT5) was put out with less buzz and still did better in sales simply because it was a part of the fastest growing segment.. CUVs. BTW. ATS does better in the Global numbers than it doe sin the US. Why?? Because everywhere else isn't obsessed with CUV/SUVs

3 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Wait and see? Dude that was like QUICK FAST AND IN A HURRY.. as this quote was taken from a review last year. This one too:

To the ATS. The ATS quality issue has been most limited to issues with CUE. Every person I have met or kno that has had an ATS has had zero issues with them outside of a slight learning curve in CUE. Once they drove the car, read the manual, and fiddled with it for a few weeks.. their complaints died out. Yes.. getting acclimated to a new UI is not as easy and can be more frustrating than just hopping in and pushing buttons and turning knobs as had been done for the past 100 years. Go figure. 

ATS sales. The car is a first.. introduced in a down market for CARS, and with only two variants where as the mainstay has like a billion. No marketing except in year one.. and a black eye because it has the backseat of a small compact luxury car while being.. a small compact luxury car.  I like how people try and act as tho the ATS some how is a bad car when technically a similar launched vehicle (SRX-XT5) was put out with less buzz and still did better in sales simply because it was a part of the fastest growing segment.. CUVs. BTW. ATS does better in the Global numbers than it doe sin the US. Why?? Because everywhere else isn't obsessed with CUV/SUVs

 

More than a learning curve issue, the whole freaking unit had to be replaced.  Anad again, also had to have the PCM flashed for rough idle issues and trans shifting issue.  he still loves the car though, as do I.  That said, after taking the ATS on a long trip this weekend we have decided when we go next year we are taking the Camry lol.  We won't even start on his 09 CTS.......

On 3/11/2017 at 8:53 AM, surreal1272 said:

On the flip side, you have shown nothing that proves that Fiat/Alfa are anything close to reliable cars. All the evidence points to the contrary so the burden of proof clearly falls on you to show that they are not unreliable piles. 

I haven't said they are or are not unreliable.  All i have said is this is a new platform, engine, transmission, etc not related to any Alfa sold before and you cannot gleam it's reliability from those other vehicles.  GM and Ford had a reputation for building crap straight through the first 10 years of the 21st century, yet you are more than fine saying they are great quality now?   The proof says otherwise......

So we have some proof of them being unreliable already yet it's still a "wait and see"?

Ford and GM have a much better LIFETIME reputation and CURRENT reputation than any Alfa ever made for reliability whether it's the engine/trans or electronics.

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

So we have some proof of them being unreliable already yet it's still a "wait and see"?

Ford and GM have a much better LIFETIME reputation and CURRENT reputation than any Alfa ever made for reliability whether it's the engine/trans or electronics.

We have early test drives of pre-production and early production models.  nearly every car, regardless of manufacturer, has first year issues.  ecoboost was plagued with them for example.  First year Sting ray Engine failures and cooling issues on the Z06?  11-14 mustang GT manual transmission issues?  raptors with easily breakable frames?  Heck, even early enine failures on the new Civic NA 2.0.   I could go on and on, but what is the point?

I am simply not going to damn one while making excuses for the rest.......

You're picking one or two things here and there from Ford and GM while every Alfa ever has had problem after problem. THAT is the difference you're not grasping.

Yes, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Benz, Audi, and Nissan all have had issues on vehicles but the difference is you're picking just one or two vehicles per brand while over at Alfa you could list every car in their stable.

Nobody is magically excusing Jaguar and Land Rover and we all continue to assume they have sh!t reliability even though who actually knows about their 2017 models, right?

22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You're picking one or two things here and there from Ford and GM while every Alfa ever has had problem after problem. THAT is the difference you're not grasping.

Yes, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Benz, Audi, and Nissan all have had issues on vehicles but the difference is you're picking just one or two vehicles per brand while over at Alfa you could list every car in their stable.

Nobody is magically excusing Jaguar and Land Rover and we all continue to assume they have sh!t reliability even though who actually knows about their 2017 models, right?

And those new Land Rov3ers and Jags should be given a chance to prove or not prove themselves as well.  The worst Jags were far and away the Ford based ones.  And i am not picking one or 2 vehicles and not every Alfa ever made is junk.  That is the thing, I am not picking and choosing.  Like I said, you are using the same thing against Alfa that your rabid Toota owners say about domestics. 

http://shiftinglanes.com/2016/12/chevys-new-1-5l-engines-are-melting-themselves/

One of many articles on GM's new 1.5T melting pistons in multiple cars.   

Also, when you talk about 1.5, 1.6, 2.0, and 3.5 ecoboost issues you have basically covered everything ford makes save what, the Mustang?

56 minutes ago, Stew said:

I haven't said they are or are not unreliable.  All i have said is this is a new platform, engine, transmission, etc not related to any Alfa sold before and you cannot gleam it's reliability from those other vehicles.  GM and Ford had a reputation for building crap straight through the first 10 years of the 21st century, yet you are more than fine saying they are great quality now?   The proof says otherwise......

The proof says that Ford and GM are both more reliable than FCA overall and that has been the case for years and even decades. Regarding Alfa, you can say things like "new platform" and such but when the early test drives are already finding problems with MULTIPLE cars, then the mountain evidence is just a bit too much to ignore. Alfa is garbage in ways Ford and GM never were even in their worst years. Again, there is literally a mountain of evidence to support this. 

Oh and if you think Jaguars were worse under Ford, then you clearly have never had to maintain a Jaguar from the 1980s and 90s. Absolutely garbage. 

Because you want to turn this away from Alfa's problems, what issues did/does the 2.0 and 1.5 ever have? The 3.5 and 1.6 were both fixed after the first model year, right?

1 minute ago, surreal1272 said:

The proof says that Ford and GM are both more reliable than FCA overall and that has been the case for years and even decades. Regarding Alfa, you can say things like "new platform" and such but when the early test drives are already finding problems with MULTIPLE cars, then the mountain evidence is just a bit too much to ignore. Alfa is garbage in ways Ford and GM never were even in their worst years. Again, there is literally a mountain of evidence to support this. 

You do actually read tests of pre-production and early production models, right?  A LOT of them have issues regardless of manufacturer.  And again, it is all perception, while CR may ive GM a good rating while at the same time ignoring their various issue such the grenading 1.5 turbos, that fault is upon CR. 

I actually didn't know there was a human out there that could/would defend an Italian car's reliability.

2 minutes ago, Stew said:

You do actually read tests of pre-production and early production models, right?  A LOT of them have issues regardless of manufacturer.  And again, it is all perception, while CR may ive GM a good rating while at the same time ignoring their various issue such the grenading 1.5 turbos, that fault is upon CR. 

You do understand that while, yes preproduction cars will have some issue, that I never seen a case where three different cars of the same exact model had multiple and different issues? That's the key here. Multiple issues across three different cars of the same model. Show me another case of that and then you may have a point. 

Just now, ccap41 said:

Because you want to turn this away from Alfa's problems, what issues did/does the 2.0 and 1.5 ever have? The 3.5 and 1.6 were both fixed after the first model year, right?

Um, the 3.5 and 1.6 both had recalls and issues far past their first model years. 

1.5 issues:  http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/mk3-tsb-recall-problems-archive/567514-new-1-5-ecoboost-has-issue-but-ford-fobbing-us-off.html

2.0 seems to be ok, i will give youthat, besides the lackluster FE the fact it has already been replaced. 

Just now, surreal1272 said:

You do understand that while, yes preproduction cars will have some issue, that I never seen a case where three different cars of the same exact model had multiple and different issues? That's the key here. Multiple issues across three different cars of the same model. Show me another case of that and then you may have a point. 

Exactly. It wasn't 3 cars with the same issue it was 3 cars with 4 different issues.

5 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You do understand that while, yes preproduction cars will have some issue, that I never seen a case where three different cars of the same exact model had multiple and different issues? That's the key here. Multiple issues across three different cars of the same model. Show me another case of that and then you may have a point. 

Again, i am only saying wait and see.  And second I have reviews before where multiple production cars had issues, hack some went as far as having engine failures.  Car and drivers had at least 2 or 3 Sting Rays with engine failures, but I guess that is ok because the are Chevys......

9 minutes ago, Stew said:

Again, i am only saying wait and see.  And second I have reviews before where multiple production cars had issues, hack some went as far as having engine failures.  Car and drivers had at least 2 or 3 Sting Rays with engine failures, but I guess that is ok because the are Chevys......

Never said that and you are putting words in my mouth which needs to stop. Since you brought it up though let's go there. Yes the Vette had some problems (mostly the heat soak issues). However, they don't have decades of history with problems throughout their entire lineup like Fiat and Alfa. It's not even comparable unless you just want to keep riding that excuse horse to death. 

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Never said that and you are putting words in my mouth which needs to stop. Since you brought it up though let's go there. Yes the Vette had some problems (mostly the heat soak issues). However, they don't have decades of history with problems throughout their entire lineup like Fiat and Alfa. It's not even comparable unless you just want to keep riding that excuse horse to death. 

It is completely comparable because The Sting Ray was a brand new car on a brand new platform, which a brand new powertrain.  Like the Alfa it is also not a high production car.  looking at modern times, it is COMPLETELY comparable.  And FYI:  heat soak issues ere with the Z06.  The engine failures were regular LT1 powered Sting Rays.  Of course last i checked, the Corvette isn't exactly known for being highly reliable.  Cheaply built, with economy car interiors SURE, but that at least changed with the C7, though cost cutting is still noticeable........ 

2 minutes ago, Stew said:

Um, the 3.5 and 1.6 both had recalls and issues far past their first model years. 

1.5 issues:  http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/mk3-tsb-recall-problems-archive/567514-new-1-5-ecoboost-has-issue-but-ford-fobbing-us-off.html

2.0 seems to be ok, i will give youthat, besides the lackluster FE the fact it has already been replaced. 

So nothing officially recalled on the 1.5? At least that's what Google is telling me. I can go to a forum and find a complaint on any engine.

What issues did the 3.5 and 1.6 have after the first model years?

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/14/nhtsa-closes-ford-f-150-ecoboost-acceleration-probe-report/

NHTSA closed the report w/o issuing a recall as Ford took care of the issue w/ a TSB. Is that the only issue with the 3.5?

I'm not defending the 1.6. That had a sh!t ton of issued from day one. And to think they're still more reliable than an Italian car! lol

All of the engines there have been replaced. 3.5 is new, 2.0 is new, and 1.5 is new, replacing the 1.6. What's your point?

About the Corvette, that is still not the same situation like surreal brought up. That was one car? Not 3 cars w/ 4 different issues. C/D had ONE not THREE LT1's go on them. Iroically I read this quote talking about the Stingray's LT1 , 'Vette having to spend an inordinate amount of time in the shop – something you might expect from a small Italian manufacturer, for example, but not from one of the largest automakers in the world."

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

So nothing officially recalled on the 1.5? At least that's what Google is telling me. I can go to a forum and find a complaint on any engine.

What issues did the 3.5 and 1.6 have after the first model years?

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/14/nhtsa-closes-ford-f-150-ecoboost-acceleration-probe-report/

NHTSA closed the report w/o issuing a recall as Ford took care of the issue w/ a TSB. Is that the only issue with the 3.5?

I'm not defending the 1.6. That had a sh!t ton of issued from day one. And to think they're still more reliable than an Italian car! lol

All of the engines there have been replaced. 3.5 is new, 2.0 is new, and 1.5 is new, replacing the 1.6. What's your point?

About the Corvette, that is still not the same situation like surreal brought up. That was one car? Not 3 cars w/ 4 different issues. C/D had ONE not THREE LT1's go on them. Iroically I read this quote talking about the Stingray's LT1 , 'Vette having to spend an inordinate amount of time in the shop – something you might expect from a small Italian manufacturer, for example, but not from one of the largest automakers in the world."

 

 

 

Shoot yourself in the foot.  There are no official recalls on the Giullia yet either.......   Yet, you assume problems?

C&D had 2.  The one they had for best driver's car also blew up and GM admitted a production issue.  Doesn't take much searching o see Stingray owners also had engine failures......