Marchionne Still Dreams of A FCA-GM Merger

If GM put a ban on wearing black sweaters at work, Sergio would leave them alone forever.

He should try to merge with PSA, no one wants cars "Imported From Detroit" he could try some imported from France and use Citroen to fill Chrysler dealerships.   And they can consolidate some of the other brands.

 VW has many other options before even needing to think about FCA. What a joke. 

Yes, one could make a case for VW and FCA so VW gets Jeep and Ram and sells off Dodge/Chrysler to some China Company. Fiat/Alfa would also either be sold off or closed.

Sergio just does not seem to get it, he is clueless about what other companies would need to fulfill the final pieces. VW has just about everything they need and might only be interested in Jeep / Ram. Course they could also easily build their own versions of those two which is what I really think VW would do.

11 minutes ago, dfelt said:

VW has just about everything they need and might only be interested in Jeep / Ram. Course they could also easily build their own versions of those two which is what I really think VW would do.

While I agree.. Ram and Jeep as names carry a ton of weight that even if VW made a better product it would take sooooo long before it overtook Jeep/Ram in sales.

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

While I agree.. Ram and Jeep as names carry a ton of weight that even if VW made a better product it would take sooooo long before it overtook Jeep/Ram in sales.

True name recognition in the US with those two is big. That is the only reason I could see VW buy those two items. Pass on the rest. If VW did want to do it all in house though I believe they could.

I laughed my ass off at "we have other problems...."  said VW. Yeah U do 

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

True name recognition in the US with those two is big. That is the only reason I could see VW buy those two items. Pass on the rest. If VW did want to do it all in house though I believe they could.

Oh I definitely think VW is capable of making any vehicle great that they want to. It might be bland..but great.. lol

Here are the facts. 

Sergio is an idiot. 

FCA at some point is going to crash as they can not continue on and one economic turn down will kill them. 

Once Fiat crashes look for VW or Daimler to swoop in and buy Jeep and Ram from FCA out of the wreckage. 

The only thing is VW needs to pay of the Diesel issue first as they have big loans on that secured by Bentley. Sales have been good so they should get back on track soon. 

As for PSA well they are going to go no where. They have no real fans outside of Europe and even inside they only have friends in France. They are mostly a punch line for Jeremy Clarkson. 

GM left Europe for Geopolitical, labor and economic reasons they themselves seen as outsiders could not get much help with. Often you have to take a step back before you can move forward. But in this case with 16 years of losses in Europe it was not really much of a step back.  

Sorry, but this article reads like it was originally from The Onion.  Why would Sergio criticize the PSA/Opel deal when it was his idea to spin off Ferrari as its own publicly traded company?

6 minutes ago, aurora97 said:

Sorry, but this article reads like it was originally from The Onion.  Why would Sergio criticize the PSA/Opel deal when it was his idea to spin off Ferrari as its own publicly traded company?

 

 

Welcome the Twilight Zone, here is your black sweater.

VW looks at things globally, the only global brand at FCA with any value is Jeep.   I am sure VW would love to have Jeep in the arsenal, Ram trucks would make profit in USA would would help them, but isn't like something they really need.  I don't think the value of Jeep offsets the worthlessness of Dodge/Chrysler/Fiat/Alfa/Maserati to VW.  

There certainly is more to FCA of value than just Jeep.

SEAT's highest volume line is the Ibiza: it sold 160K in 2015.
Skoda's highest volume line is the Octavia: it sold 436K in 2016.

Ram sold 544K units in 2016 in the U.S. only. And without a doubt the profit margins on the Ram are many times over that of the ibiza or Octavia. Cash cows are always appealing in a business case.

Funny seeing as a couple months ago he said there was absolutely no intrest in a merger anymore.  At least he should be laving soon. 

13 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Here are the facts. 

Sergio is an idiot. 

FCA at some point is going to crash as they can not continue on and one economic turn down will kill them. 

Once Fiat crashes look for VW or Daimler to swoop in and buy Jeep and Ram from FCA out of the wreckage. 

The only thing is VW needs to pay of the Diesel issue first as they have big loans on that secured by Bentley. Sales have been good so they should get back on track soon. 

As for PSA well they are going to go no where. They have no real fans outside of Europe and even inside they only have friends in France. They are mostly a punch line for Jeremy Clarkson. 

GM left Europe for Geopolitical, labor and economic reasons they themselves seen as outsiders could not get much help with. Often you have to take a step back before you can move forward. But in this case with 16 years of losses in Europe it was not really much of a step back.  

Moe hyperbole.  they are actually paying down their debt at an incredible rate.  the new platform and turbo 4 engines that will spread across the line are now out there, the new Compass looks to be a hit, The Wagoneer, Grand Wagoneer, and new Ram are coming.  The Compass looks to be a hit.  The LX cars are cash cows as the tooling is long paid off and the Charger has a strong following in police fleets.  The KSP for example uses almost exclusively Chargers.  Despite a lack of updates, the Journey continues to post higher sales numbers each month while being a cash cow, as, again, the tooling is long paid off.  Hellcat demand continues to outpace production capacities.  They could be the number 1 seller in the world and you would still be predicting doom........

If all these FCA products were such great cash cows, Sergio wouldn't constantly be looking for merger partners.  FCA is spending almost nothing in on new products, so what do they sell in 2020 with so little in the pipeline?  And one global downturn, recession or gas spike could be 2009 all over again for them and he knows it.  They are making money now because the auto market has had back to back record sales years, that won't last forever.  

Maybe he should contact Carlos Ghosn, he like alliances and mergers, and he took on Mitsubishi so apparently no car maker is too far lost for him to take on.  Nissan would get the full size truck they want, Renault can absorb any Fiat models worth keeping, they could sell Renault in USA at existing dealers (the new Renault Alpine 110 looks pretty sweet), they can kill Chrysler and sell the Pacifica at Nissan or Dodge or both, they'd keep Jeep as is.

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If all these FCA products were such great cash cows, Sergio wouldn't constantly be looking for merger partners.  FCA is spending almost nothing in on new products, so what do they sell in 2020 with so little in the pipeline?  And one global downturn, recession or gas spike could be 2009 all over again for them and he knows it.  They are making money now because the auto market has had back to back record sales years, that won't last forever.  

Maybe he should contact Carlos Ghosn, he like alliances and mergers, and he took on Mitsubishi so apparently no car maker is too far lost for him to take on.  Nissan would get the full size truck they want, Renault can absorb any Fiat models worth keeping, they could sell Renault in USA at existing dealers (the new Renault Alpine 110 looks pretty sweet), they can kill Chrysler and sell the Pacifica at Nissan or Dodge or both, they'd keep Jeep as is.

Um, there is tons of new product coming in the next few years.  I understand what they are doing right now is using what they have to get rid of debt rather quickly before starting a costly product onslaught.  We know the new Alfa sedan and SUV are just a beginning of what we are going to see as the platform and turbo 4 will be spreading across the lineup.  They have to.  The more vehicles a platform can cover, they more they get to amortize the cost, and the more profit they make. 

Yes Stew.. I have to agree with Smk and Hyper on this one. FCA is for all intents a 3 Trick Pony.. in that they have Jeep. But then they have Ram.. and LX cars NOT being updated in order to pay the bills. Look at the fact that FCA's profits are very weak considering the last two points made. One good update to Ram and profit SAP is on the way. One good spike in Fuel costs and BOOM.. their reliance on the SRT "We Build Excitement" (lol) goes away. Jeep is really the only thing that I could see GM really wanting.. Maserati would probably be desirable to Ford. Ferrari is gone on its own. Alfa is really nothing to write home about. Chrysler is pretty much a minivan. They have no.. and I mean no small cars in the mainstream brand (Dodge). They have no.. and I mean no mid-size in the mainstream brand. Pretty much FCA in the U.S. is Charger cop cars, Challenger, Ram, and Jeep... oh and a minivan. 

Personally I see no reason for Mary to even consider it once those facts are presented. Does GM need SRT?? Hell no. The Camaro alone does everything that the performance cars at Dodge do better. They have the capability, and frankly the necessity for scale to build an Omega or Alpha-L Impala that could put the Charger on the flatbed. Does GM need Ram??? Hell no. Come on. Does GM need Jeep??? Not even. GMC could easily take on Jeep I think if they wanted to. 

10 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Yes Stew.. I have to agree with Smk and Hyper on this one. FCA is for all intents a 3 Trick Pony.. in that they have Jeep. But then they have Ram.. and LX cars NOT being updated in order to pay the bills. Look at the fact that FCA's profits are very weak considering the last two points made. One good update to Ram and profit SAP is on the way. One good spike in Fuel costs and BOOM.. their reliance on the SRT "We Build Excitement" (lol) goes away. Jeep is really the only thing that I could see GM really wanting.. Maserati would probably be desirable to Ford. Ferrari is gone on its own. Alfa is really nothing to write home about. Chrysler is pretty much a minivan. They have no.. and I mean no small cars in the mainstream brand (Dodge). They have no.. and I mean no mid-size in the mainstream brand. Pretty much FCA in the U.S. is Charger cop cars, Challenger, Ram, and Jeep... oh and a minivan. 

Personally I see no reason for Mary to even consider it once those facts are presented. Does GM need SRT?? Hell no. The Camaro alone does everything that the performance cars at Dodge do better. They have the capability, and frankly the necessity for scale to build an Omega or Alpha-L Impala that could put the Charger on the flatbed. Does GM need Ram??? Hell no. Come on. Does GM need Jeep??? Not even. GMC could easily take on Jeep I think if they wanted to. 

Of course, you see everything through GM Rose colored glasses.......

1 minute ago, Stew said:

Of course, you see everything through GM Rose colored glasses.......

Of course 

Just now, Cmicasa the Great said:

Of course 

And I am ok with that.  I tend to have a multi-national driveway haha.  2 Dodges, a Chevy, a Toyota, and a VW lol. 

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

There certainly is more to FCA of value than just Jeep.

SEAT's highest volume line is the Ibiza: it sold 160K in 2015.
Skoda's highest volume line is the Octavia: it sold 436K in 2016.

Ram sold 544K units in 2016 in the U.S. only. And without a doubt the profit margins on the Ram are many times over that of the ibiza or Octavia. Cash cows are always appealing in a business case.

Not only that but VW is a company that makes two different variants of certain cars, so they obviously see the value in catering to a specific market- the US, in this case- if the rewards are great enough.

With all of his merger talk and subsequent shoot downs, Sergio is like the kid that keeps punching himself in the nuts and expecting it to no longer hurt. How is this man in charge of anything?

59 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Personally I see no reason for Mary to even consider it once those facts are presented. Does GM need SRT?? Hell no. The Camaro alone does everything that the performance cars at Dodge do better. They have the capability, and frankly the necessity for scale to build an Omega or Alpha-L Impala that could put the Charger on the flatbed. Does GM need Ram??? Hell no. Come on. Does GM need Jeep??? Not even. GMC could easily take on Jeep I think if they wanted to. 

GM(or anybody else) could always use the Jeep brand regardless of what product they could produce themselves. But I completely agree with everything else you said. They simply don't really make competitive products anymore. They have a few niche items like the Hellcats and SRT Grand Cherokee that everybody seems to love but outside of those the rest is old(save for the van, Cherokee & now Compass) or is a Fiat... Jeep is the only thing I would want to buy from them.

49 minutes ago, Stew said:

And I am ok with that.  I tend to have a multi-national driveway haha.  2 Dodges, a Chevy, a Toyota, and a VW lol. 

Yeah..  I kno. I'm a GM or Ford kinda guy since 1998. Before Chrysler hooked up with Daimler. Either way.. I am still looking at it from a business standpoint.. and business wise a GM/FCA hook-up would only spawn issues with the union at this point. On top of that the overlap if GM revitalized Dodge and Chrysler alone would be massive. If they were gonna do that they may as well of just reopened Pontiac. That would give em 500K sales instantly.. For the Jeep thing.. Again I call for a trim level based solely on the Canyon that emulates.. U guessed it.  the Hummer H3,  H3T and Hx concept 

Ccap41 see my post to Stew 

One great thing is that the new Alfas are getting pretty rave reviews, basically replacing the Alpha based ATS as the mags favorite small luxury car.  unfortunately this doesn't guarantee sales, but when this platform makes it way to Dodge in will be a game changer, as much as the original LX cars were when they came out.  The new Turbo 4 is also getting rave reviews.  For a RWD 4 cylinder Alfa MT got 0-60 in 5.1 and a 1/4 mile of 13.6.  That is quicker than most of the competitions optional V6s and way quicker than their base 4 bangers.  The next resting place for this engine will be the new Wrangler, though I am sure it will be tuned for more low end torque where the Alfa version is tuned for mid/top end HP.  The Real MPG numbers were also pretty impressive at 38.1 on the highway, and I believe a 32 MPG average.  Things are going to get interesting over the next few years. 

31 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

GM(or anybody else) could always use the Jeep brand regardless of what product they could produce themselves. 

Yes there is certain power with the Jeep name, but honestly, GM just needs a Hummer Edition on the GMC product line and produce the the HX concept. This would address the Wrangler needs of the GM family.

Imagine this with a GMC grill. It would sell big time!

I wouldn't go with a hummer design or name because Hummer did not have the best rep when they were killed off. 

2 hours ago, Stew said:

I wouldn't go with a hummer design or name because Hummer did not have the best rep when they were killed off. 

I have to disagree, extreme tree huggers hurt it, but plenty of Hummers still around here in the PNW and people love them for their off road capability. Every bit as good and in many ways better than Jeep.

Hummer as an offroad GMC package would do great. Take the HX above and give it a GMC grill and call it the Terracross. have various packages including the ultimate would be the hummer package.

3 hours ago, Stew said:

One great thing is that the new Alfas are getting pretty rave reviews, basically replacing the Alpha based ATS as the mags favorite small luxury car.  unfortunately this doesn't guarantee sales, but when this platform makes it way to Dodge in will be a game changer, as much as the original LX cars were when they came out.  The new Turbo 4 is also getting rave reviews.  For a RWD 4 cylinder Alfa MT got 0-60 in 5.1 and a 1/4 mile of 13.6.  That is quicker than most of the competitions optional V6s and way quicker than their base 4 bangers.  The next resting place for this engine will be the new Wrangler, though I am sure it will be tuned for more low end torque where the Alfa version is tuned for mid/top end HP.  The Real MPG numbers were also pretty impressive at 38.1 on the highway, and I believe a 32 MPG average.  Things are going to get interesting over the next few years. 

ATS has been out since 2012. The update will be a game changer and its literally just around the corner. Plus.. I call it today.. Mags will be in love with the Alfa JULIETTE.. bitch ass car.. til the lil muthafucker breaks them down in the middle of nowhere

35 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I have to disagree, extreme tree huggers hurt it, but plenty of Hummers still around here in the PNW and people love them for their off road capability. Every bit as good and in many ways better than Jeep.

Hummer as an offroad GMC package would do great. Take the HX above and give it a GMC grill and call it the Terracross. have various packages including the ultimate would be the hummer package.

Plenty of Hummers here.. hell everywhere. The Hummer had a bad rep because of just what U said... ironically the were no worse in FE than almost any of the sports cars, coupes of their time.. or even now. I won't even mention that with today's GM powertrains.. diesels included.. Hummer could make a helluva comeback. Hell.. isn't Lutz involved with a company that pretty much is selling Hummer looking trucks with EV powertrains?

Well, if somebody at GM wanted to build a direct Jeep competitor as GMC product, I'm in. 

I wish Sergio would give Ghosn a call and let them talk merger.  The only reason Sergio keeps talking FCA-GM merger is that GM foolishly failed to buy Fiat back in 2005 and had to pay an exorbitant exit fee of $4 billion.  Tell Sergio to just go.

49 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

ATS has been out since 2012. The update will be a game changer and its literally just around the corner. Plus.. I call it today.. Mags will be in love with the Alfa JULIETTE.. bitch ass car.. til the lil muthaf@#ker breaks them down in the middle of nowhere

ATS will have to make a quantum leap to change any games, I don't think Cadillac has it in them to get the ATS interior to class leading, while also increasing performance and refinement and space.  The car Mags already like the Alfa more than the C63, it is the darling of the journalists, although it still doesn't sell.  The fact that the Alfa Quadrifiglio V6 is 75% of a Ferrari V8 gives it some solid cred though.

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

I have to disagree, extreme tree huggers hurt it, but plenty of Hummers still around here in the PNW and people love them for their off road capability. Every bit as good and in many ways better than Jeep.

Hummer as an offroad GMC package would do great. Take the HX above and give it a GMC grill and call it the Terracross. have various packages including the ultimate would be the hummer package.

Please explain o me how they are better than Jeep offroad exactly, especially the Wrangler Rubicon.  Anyways, every manufacturer GM killed had lived past it's sell by date, especially Hummer. 

GMC has the All-Terrain badge and models, they should simply go more extreme with those. 

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

ATS will have to make a quantum leap to change any games, I don't think Cadillac has it in them to get the ATS interior to class leading, while also increasing performance and refinement and space.  The car Mags already like the Alfa more than the C63, it is the darling of the journalists, although it still doesn't sell.  The fact that the Alfa Quadrifiglio V6 is 75% of a Ferrari V8 gives it some solid cred though.

 

How do you know the Alfa sedan doesn't sell, they barely have any dealerships and very few have even arrived on our shores.....

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

ATS has been out since 2012. The update will be a game changer and its literally just around the corner. Plus.. I call it today.. Mags will be in love with the Alfa JULIETTE.. bitch ass car.. til the lil muthaf@#ker breaks them down in the middle of nowhere

A little butthurt considering the ATS just received it's MCE and new redesign, which it will take, is years off?  The 2.0T and 2.9TT are all new engines, NOTHING even remotely related to anything Alfa has used before so assuming it will have bad reliability is simply fanboy attack tactics.....

Assuming an Italian company will have bad reliability is just going with their own track record of making...unreliable vehicles... The sentence, " That Italian car is so reliable." has never been said, ever, by anybody.

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

ATS will have to make a quantum leap to change any games, I don't think Cadillac has it in them to get the ATS interior to class leading, while also increasing performance and refinement and space.  

 

Why is it so hard to believe when its pretty much already done with the ATS-L and CTS interiors? 2018-19 is gonna put U in your place again. OH.. and FUCK Benz.. and anyone who likes them

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Assuming an Italian company will have bad reliability is just going with their own track record of making...unreliable vehicles... The sentence, " That Italian car is so reliable." has never been said, ever, by anybody.

FIX

IT

AGAIN

TONY

3 hours ago, Stew said:

A little butthurt considering the ATS just received it's MCE and new redesign, which it will take, is years off?  The 2.0T and 2.9TT are all new engines, NOTHING even remotely related to anything Alfa has used before so assuming it will have bad reliability is simply fanboy attack tactics.....

Nope. Simply stating facts. And MCE is not a makeover or new model. The Alfa is brand new...and if it didn't out do the ATS or 3 Series then I would say FCA needs to get out of the car business today.. right now. The problem with all is that the ATS, despite its age still is a better handler and all around sports lux than almost all. Its biggest demerit continues to be.. the fuckin backseat. As to reliability.. pleeeeeeeease. Its a Fiat.Nuff said

44 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Why is it so hard to believe when its pretty much already done with the ATS-L and CTS interiors? 2018-19 is gonna put U in your place again. OH.. and f@#k Benz.. and anyone who likes them

FIX

IT

AGAIN

TONY

Because the because the CT6 interior is worse than the C-class or most Audis, unless you only judge by rear seat legroom.  So unless the ATS gets a CT6 beating interior, they aren't being a game changer.  The Alfa Quadrafiglio is like 20 seconds faster around the Nurburgring ring than a CTS-V.  I don't see them making an ATS-v faster than a CTS-V so again no game changer.  Mercedes is for some unknown reason building a C63 R that will drop weight and have 577ish hp, Cadillac isn't that ballsy because there is next to no market for cars like that.  I don't think Mercedes should even bother with it.

Alfa has the Stelvio too, that may sell.  And the number of 500 hp small crossovers can be counted on one hand, and that is even after the F-Pace V8 and GLC63 go on sale.

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Alfa Quadrafiglio is like 20 seconds faster around the Nurburgring ring than a CTS-V...

from 2009.

13 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Nope. Simply stating facts. And MCE is not a makeover or new model. The Alfa is brand new...and if it didn't out do the ATS or 3 Series then I would say FCA needs to get out of the car business today.. right now. The problem with all is that the ATS, despite its age still is a better handler and all around sports lux than almost all. Its biggest demerit continues to be.. the f@#kin backseat. As to reliability.. pleeeeeeeease. Its a Fiat.Nuff said

As for reliability, my brother's ATS has been in the shop multiple times and even had to have the whole CUE unit replaced.  I could go on about curnt GM quality issues, but I won't.  please give me some exact reliability issues with this new Alfa that hasn't even been out long enough to have a quality and reliability rating.  Again, fanboy conjecture because their favorite cars has been overtaken.  Oh, the 16 MCE was pretty extensive in the powertrain department. 

16 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Assuming an Italian company will have bad reliability is just going with their own track record of making...unreliable vehicles... The sentence, " That Italian car is so reliable." has never been said, ever, by anybody.

That is like saying we should be afraid of all GM cars because wht, millions had to be recalled of ignitions?  or we shouldn't buy ecoboosts because they have a track reord of recalls, even for possible fires?  Or we shouldn't trust Ford transmissions because the AOD, AODE, and 4R70W were garbage that were pretty well guaranteed to fail before 100k miles?

14 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Why is it so hard to believe when its pretty much already done with the ATS-L and CTS interiors? 2018-19 is gonna put U in your place again. OH.. and f@#k Benz.. and anyone who likes them

FIX

IT

AGAIN

TONY

F Benz and anyone who likes them?  Really?  You sound like a 5 year old having a temper tantrum because everybody in the world doesn't follow your lead and love ONLY GM.  

PS the sound alone of the AMG C63 is frankly intoxicating. 

17 minutes ago, Stew said:

That is like saying we should be afraid of all GM cars because wht, millions had to be recalled of ignitions?  or we shouldn't buy ecoboosts because they have a track reord of recalls, even for possible fires?  Or we shouldn't trust Ford transmissions because the AOD, AODE, and 4R70W were garbage that were pretty well guaranteed to fail before 100k miles?

Sure, go ahead. But it's a widely known issue with Italian made cars that aren't made to the greatest quality even if they are superb cars when driven.

Ignition issues isn't the same as just making an all around low quality vehicle where knobs, plastics, and otherwise shet just fails, vehicles that are joked about for being in the shop more than driven. Watch any car show about Italian cars and maintenance and reliability will be joked about. It's a thing. And transmissions failing before 100k miles isn't the same as 17 trips to the shop for miscellaneous bullshet that has stopped working.

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Sure, go ahead. But it's a widely known issue with Italian made cars that aren't made to the greatest quality even if they are superb cars when driven.

Ignition issues isn't the same as just making an all around low quality vehicle where knobs, plastics, and otherwise shet just fails, vehicles that are joked about for being in the shop more than driven. Watch any car show about Italian cars and maintenance and reliability will be joked about. It's a thing. And transmissions failing before 100k miles isn't the same as 17 trips to the shop for miscellaneous bullshet that has stopped working.

You realize japanese car fans say the exact same things about American cars, right?????   Face it, American cars still don't have the best reputation as a whole and there are reasons.  Ford for example is really bad for using less than great quality stuff on their interiors.  And both GM and Ford still use materials of mixed quality and even colors and types in their cars and you basically have to get the highest trim available to get the best interior.  Fusion is a great example.  The lower trim models are button filled and cheap while Titanium models have totally different center stacks, head units, a switchgear.  Same is true of the Malibu.  Ford is still plagued with transmission issues, particularly the DCT in the Focus and Fiesta.  Your asumption is that this is going to be a low quality car with the same assumptions that Japanese car fans use to bash Domestic cars.  You know what assuming makes you, right?

35 minutes ago, Stew said:

you basically have to get the highest trim available to get the best interior.

Uhhh no sh!t..? What kind of statement of obvious is that?

35 minutes ago, Stew said:

Ford is still plagued with transmission issues, particularly the DCT in the Focus and Fiesta. 

Other than the DCT what transmission issues are they having?

Yeah, I'm fine with assuming an Italian car is unreliable until they prove otherwise. If it makes me an asshole, so be it. It isn't like Fiats have been reliable since their return so why would I think the same mother company, and Italian, would all of a sudden make something better? Once they do, great! I don't want Alfas to be shet quality but until they prove themselves...most will believe their past reputation and Italian reputation which aren't good.

Fiat = unreliable

Italian = unreliable

Past Alfas = unreliable

What are they giving me to have faith in them?

1 hour ago, Stew said:

PS the sound alone of the AMG C63 is frankly intoxicating. 

Not sure why but there is just something coarse, rough just off about the sound of the C63.

CTS-V

Love the sound of this over the C63

Europe does seem to like American fast auto's.

20 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Uhhh no sh!t..? What kind of statement of obvious is that?

Other than the DCT what transmission issues are they having?

Yeah, I'm fine with assuming an Italian car is unreliable until they prove otherwise. If it makes me an asshole, so be it. It isn't like Fiats have been reliable since their return so why would I think the same mother company, and Italian, would all of a sudden make something better? Once they do, great! I don't want Alfas to be shet quality but until they prove themselves...most will believe their past reputation and Italian reputation which aren't good.

Fiat = unreliable

Italian = unreliable

Past Alfas = unreliable

What are they giving me to have faith in them?

What are the exact reliability issues with the current Fiats and what matters?  the last Alfas sold here were 2 decades ago, Domestic manufacturers weren't exactly setting the reliability world on fire in the 80s and 90s (unless you are talking about Ford's huge recall for actual ignition fires).  Besides this isn't exactly Italian only.  it uses the bullet proof ZF 8 speed and the turbo 4 AND the platform were designed partially here to underpin new Dodges and jeeps.   Like I said, assumptions......

19 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Not sure why but there is just something coarse, rough just off about the sound of the C63.

CTS-V

Love the sound of this over the C63

Europe does seem to like American fast auto's.

 

Wrong C63, that looks o be a last gen black series. 

2 hours ago, Stew said:

As for reliability, my brother's ATS has been in the shop multiple times and even had to have the whole CUE unit replaced.  I could go on about curnt GM quality issues, but I won't.  please give me some exact reliability issues with this new Alfa that hasn't even been out long enough to have a quality and reliability rating.  Again, fanboy conjecture because their favorite cars has been overtaken.  Oh, the 16 MCE was pretty extensive in the powertrain department. 

That is like saying we should be afraid of all GM cars because wht, millions had to be recalled of ignitions?  or we shouldn't buy ecoboosts because they have a track reord of recalls, even for possible fires?  Or we shouldn't trust Ford transmissions because the AOD, AODE, and 4R70W were garbage that were pretty well guaranteed to fail before 100k miles?

CUE??? I kno people with Maseratis.. 500s.. hell even Grand Cherokees that have had their damn engines replaced.. RECENTLY.

And DAMN IT!!! DAMN U!!! For making me do this There is a GOD DAMN FCA at the bottom for the last 3 years... and all usually rank under the industry. Cadillac??? Cadillac's dependability issues mostly come from a lack of understanding of a damn UI. 

3 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

CUE??? I kno people with Maseratis.. 500s.. hell even Grand Cherokees that have had their damn engines replaced.. RECENTLY.

And DAMN IT!!! DAMN U!!! For making me do this There is a GOD DAMN FCA at the bottom for the last 3 years... and all usually rank under the industry. Cadillac??? Cadillac's dependability issues mostly come from a lack of understanding of a damn UI. 

 

Sure you do.  i am sure you just know tons of people with 500s....  Right.  He has also had to take it in and have the ECU reflashed for engine and transmission issues.    Hey, were the 500s the NA, turbo, or Abarth models?  the Masers all the same V8?  What engine were these Grand Cherokees running as from everything i know the Pentastar, Hemi, and even  the 3.0 diesel are pretty bulletproof..... 

1 hour ago, Stew said:

you basically have to get the highest trim available to get the best interior.

This is the same in every damn car make on the planet... There is a reason why the S-Class starts at $90 and goes up to $170.. and it ain't just because of the AMG designation

Just now, Stew said:

Sure you do.  i am sure you just know tons of people with 500s....  Right.  He has also had to take it in and have the ECU reflashed for engine and transmission issues.    Hey, were the 500s the NA, turbo, or Abarth models?  the Masers all the same V8?  What engine were these Grand Cherokees running as from everything i know the Pentastar, Hemi, and even  the 3.0 diesel are pretty bulletproof..... 

And how many miles on each one?  Was all maintenance done as stated and how many miles on each failure?

2 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

This is the same in every damn car make on the planet... There is a reason why the S-Class starts at $90 and goes up to $170.. and it ain't just because of the AMG designation

LOL, but not the mix match of materials.  My Camry and bug both are consistent throughout the cabin and my Camry is even a base LE.