Rumorpile: Farewell Dodge Caravan?

Utterly stupid.

I'm guessing FIAT's logic is to have a single car brand in the end, consistent with Hyundai or Mercedes, and have RAM be exclusively for trucks.

That isn't a bad idea, although shuttering an identifiable brand like Dodge does seem like a waste. I thought FIAT initially intended Chrysler to occupy a higher-tier and have Dodge be the everyman brand.

Ummm....not going to happen.

Caravan..possible, not likely.

Dodge? WTF? Not happening......

Great timing...as I read this article I'm listening to the latest Autoblog podcast and the hosts are debating this very issue--speculating if Dodge will be phased out eventually to be replaced by Fiat....there are points and counter points for each argument. The biggest hole at Dodge currently is a competitive midsize sedan...

bad idea. i really do think they can rid dodge and call it fiat. fiat does not have the history or equity in this country, but sergio wants to move fiat's HQ here so why would they keep dodge to compete? It's got to be an Italian penis wins over an american penis thing.

Fiat = small Chrysler = midsize and larger.

Ram = trucks

SRT = expensive sh1t

Jeep = crossovers that try hard to be like real jeeps.

the Jeeps and trucks sold here in the US are the only thing that keeps chrysler viable in this setup anymore. No one would give a crap about Fiat here if not for how cute the 500 was.

It will be sad if they axe dodge but that is what it looks like they are doing.

I think Dodge is toast. The Durango is basically a longer Grand Cherokee, they could easily replace it with a Jeep, or a 3 row Chrysler SUV. The Dart could get a new grille and move to Chrysler, and the Charger is already at Chrysler and no one buys the Journey anyway.

Plus there is potential to expand the Fiat brand, or to bring Alfa Romeo here. I don't really care for Fiats or Alfa's, but Fiat may be thinking there are better profit margins to be had on selling European imports, and the current Dodge cars can be merged into Chrysler and then you don't have competition among Dodge and Chrysler.

The best selling car in Canada? I don't think so for some reason. It will live on up here at least.

I think Dodge is toast. The Durango is basically a longer Grand Cherokee, they could easily replace it with a Jeep, or a 3 row Chrysler SUV.

There has been talk for years of a longer, larger GC--bring back the Wagoneer name possibly....seems like it would make the Durango redundant..

The Dart could be the "all new" Chrysler 100, and they would just have to change the front and rear fascias. It is a cheap way to make a new model.

Ugh... here we go again with this crap. I told you guys Fiat is not Dodge's friend. Who the hell would rather drive a Fix It Again Tony over a Dodge? Not many people in THIS country.

Fiat won't look at it that way. They will see themselves as the owner of Chrysler LLC or whatever that company out of bankruptcy is called, and Fiat will call all the shots. Fiat in their minds doesn't need all these brands that are basically all in one dealership anyway, they'll trim it down and streamline it. Fiat didn't buy Chrysler to keep everything, they bought it to raid it, get Jeep which is a valuable brand, get Ram trucks because pickups = profit in the usa, and most importantly get entry into the US market for their own products.

I think Fiat's plan is to dump Dodge, align Chrysler against VW and Buick since there is a bit better profit margin there than there will be batting it out on price and volume with Toyota and Hyundai, and rely on truck and SUV sales for profit in the short term, while importing more and more Fiats and Alfas to the USA because car sales in Europe are at a 20 year low. But Fiat can't beat Ford or VW in Europe and they won't beat them here either.

Dodge isn't going anywhere, and the Caravan isn't likely going anywhere, either.

Mr. Stoddard clearly has a second grade reading level or his informant must really like trolling him.

Chrysler only has three models right now: 300, Town & Country, and the 200.

Dodge has the Dart, Avenger, Charger, Challenger, Caravan, Durango, and Journey. The Dart just arrived. The Avenger will be replaced with a new model shared with Alfa. The Charger is due for a refresh very soon. The Challenger is staying at Dodge. The Caravan is getting a replacment. The Journey isn't going anywhere and will have a next-generation model coming out. The Durango is currently under review, but there's a good chance we'll see it and the new Wagoneer both.

With only three models right now and none to be added to my knowledge other than a replacement for the 200 and T&C and a refresh for the 300, I could argue Chrysler is the brand getting the axe here, not Dodge. I could go even further and fortify that claim by bringing up the recently cancelled 100 model.

Dodge isn't going anywhere and any rumors claiming that are pure bunk, plain and simple.

Agreeing with BK full on this one....

And they can't replace half of dodge's lineup anyways....

Fiat will stay on the smaller end, and Alfa could become the next "mini" brand

Simply put, dodge is macho, Fiat is for "somebody"...

So lets take this from the flip side. Fiat wants to move their HQ here to the US. The Socialist Unions are bleeding the company dry, they cannot compete with their ugly poor quality products.

Could it be that Fiat ends up eventually going away as they move to have a small Mini style of store within a store. Fiat becomes that eco box level for Dodge. Then you have Ram for Trucks, Jeep for Off road SUV's, bring back the wagoneer, kill the Durango and Dodge becomes the Entry level product line world wide for them from the 500 up to the Charger. SRT is the Performance Division and Chrysler is the Mid to higher Lux line.

I could see Fiat being the one to eventually disappear. Due to size and the heavy discounts Fiat is doing on their ugly little 500, I only see value people, aka pure price driven people buying these auto's.

Maybe....Fiat is barely making it here....

When this rumor really started to hit its stride last week or early this week, I think I calculated Dodge has accounted for approx. 37% of Chrysler's sales so far this year, including Fiat. How the hell could Fiat think they could phase out Dodge and not kill annual volume in the process? There is no way I can see them transitioning your typical Dodge owner over the Fiat or even the Chrysler brand. Maybe they can learn from GM. I do think GM needed to reduce brands but I'm betting they kept far less Saturn and Pontiac drivers in the fold then they anticipated.

Case in point, prior to the two vehicles the wife and I have now, here is a list of the vehicles we bought or leased since 2005:

2005 Saab 9-3

2005 Saab 9-2X Aero

2007 Saturn Aura XR

2008 Saturn Vue XR

2002 Pontiac Bonneville

2007 Saab 9-5 Aero

Here is what we currently drive:

2011 Ford Flex

2012 Dodge Charger R/T

The wife is up next for a vehicle and while I could see her getting a Buick Verano Turbo or a Cadillac ATS, that's about it for GM products. I would gladly take a Cadillac CTS-V wagon but I don't think I could convince her to get one.

Dodge may have volume but how much of that is to fleet sales. Ford and GM dropped minivans, Dodge can lose theirs too, and the plan is for the 2016 van to by Chrysler only because it has a $31k base price, compared to $20k for the Caravan. Fiat is going to look for profit, not volume and sell vehicles with higher margins.

I think Dodge is done after 2015 model year, they are weak on CAFE, and without the Caravan and Avenger, they have no mid-range products. The Dart will get revised to become a Chrysler 100, Challenger redesigned to the SRT Challenger, joining the SRT Viper. Journey dies, Durango is replaced by a 3 row Jeep SUV, because a Jeep Wagoneer can sell for $10,000 more than a Durango.

Fiat can't survive with all these brands. Chrysler and Lancia will have overlapping products, similar to Buick-Opel, or the One Ford plan, but same product, different badge. Fiat-Alfa will expand offerings here, and SRT will stay for the Mopar fan boys because they can jack the price up on those. Jeep has always been a solid brand name with a loyal following, nothing to change there. Fiat didn't buy Chrysler for Chrysler/Dodge, they wanted Jeep and entry to the American market.

When you look at Chrysler-Dodge-Ram-SRT-Jeep in the USA and Fiat-Lancia-Alfa Romeo-Maserati-Ferrari in Europe, that is 10 brands, that is what destroyed GM. Now a few of those brands are low volume and super high profit margin, so they are safe, but and Automaker doesn't need 10 brands.

Don't count on Fiat going anywhere.

Dodge may have volume but how much of that is to fleet sales. Ford and GM dropped minivans, Dodge can lose theirs too, and the plan is for the 2016 van to by Chrysler only because it has a $31k base price, compared to $20k for the Caravan. Fiat is going to look for profit, not volume and sell vehicles with higher margins.

I think Dodge is done after 2015 model year, they are weak on CAFE, and without the Caravan and Avenger, they have no mid-range products. The Dart will get revised to become a Chrysler 100, Challenger redesigned to the SRT Challenger, joining the SRT Viper. Journey dies, Durango is replaced by a 3 row Jeep SUV, because a Jeep Wagoneer can sell for $10,000 more than a Durango.

Fiat can't survive with all these brands. Chrysler and Lancia will have overlapping products, similar to Buick-Opel, or the One Ford plan, but same product, different badge. Fiat-Alfa will expand offerings here, and SRT will stay for the Mopar fan boys because they can jack the price up on those. Jeep has always been a solid brand name with a loyal following, nothing to change there. Fiat didn't buy Chrysler for Chrysler/Dodge, they wanted Jeep and entry to the American market.

When you look at Chrysler-Dodge-Ram-SRT-Jeep in the USA and Fiat-Lancia-Alfa Romeo-Maserati-Ferrari in Europe, that is 10 brands, that is what destroyed GM. Now a few of those brands are low volume and super high profit margin, so they are safe, but and Automaker doesn't need 10 brands.

Well -- BIG SUPRISE HERE -- you're wrong yet again, but you'll see that soon enough.

Your post also clearly indicates you have absolutely no idea how CAFE affects automakers.

Also, there are very little to no circumstances surrounding Chrysler Group's brands and Old GM's brands that can be paralleled.

You've lost the ball. Please, go home and stay there.

Isn't the FWD-based CUV the new minivan? Might make sense to drop the minivan and replace it with something else...

I think the MiniVan is a dying product. Toyota, Honda and Hyundia might keep them alive in one form or another, but the CUV has replaced the MiniVan pretty much and I do not see it surviving here in the US unlike how the station wagon survives in Europe.

Would make an interesting case study as to why the over all space and versitility has lost out to less room and lower gas mileage of the CUV?

Which one sells more? I thought it was the Caravan....why would you kill the better selling product and hope cutsomers go to the one that doesn't sell as well?

Which one sells more? I thought it was the Caravan....why would you kill the better selling product and hope cutsomers go to the one that doesn't sell as well?

Because the Town and Country has a base price of $31,000 and the Caravan's is $19,995. It is about profit per car, not volume. Chrysler Corp went bankrupt because they made no money, and Fiat bought them because they had Jeep and American dealerships. If Chrysler didn't have Jeep in the stable, they'd be with Saab and Pontiac.

Valid point... but then raise the price of the Caravan and make justifiable improvements. There's gotta be some room in there for a mini-van with a base price around $25k. The Oddy seems to start around $28k

One thing nobody has clearly answered in the Dodge is dead scenario is what happens to the Charger and Challenger? I have heard speculation that they both go to SRT or that Charger dies and Challenger goes to SRT but does that make sense? Are they going to dilute SRT by selling V6 Chargers and Challengers? I could see maybe selling R/T versions under the SRT name but even that doesn't make sense. If they do that, would be the purpose of having created a separate SRT brand? They may as well have just kept everything Dodge and made SRT a trim level like it used to be.

There aren't really "SRT" dealers either... they are just a roped off section in a Dodge dealer.

The Charger can die off because they have the 300, and they could replace the Challenger with a rear drive Chrysler coupe. There are rumors that the Challenger will be replaced by a Chrysler/SRT Barracuda in 2015. If they want to keep an SRT Charger, they could, then you a V8 only Charger (competition for Chevy SS) that can sell for near $50k. If people want V8s post 2015 they are going to have to pay a steep price. The Chrysler 300 would get V6 gas and diesel and a V8, they could do the SRT Charger and Barracuda off the same platform which gives them 2 "halo" cars and something to appeal to the 55-60 year olds that used to drive muscle cars and still want that sort of car.

This also clears out the $15-30,000 mainstream car segments (where Chrysler is terrible anyway) for Fiat to move in with their econoboxes. When the 2025 CAFE hits, and as the younger urban generation takes over and the "traditional American car buyer" dies off, our car market is going to look a lot like Europe's does now.

The Charger can die off because they have the 300, and they could replace the Challenger with a rear drive Chrysler coupe. There are rumors that the Challenger will be replaced by a Chrysler/SRT Barracuda in 2015. If they want to keep an SRT Charger, they could, then you a V8 only Charger (competition for Chevy SS) that can sell for near $50k. If people want V8s post 2015 they are going to have to pay a steep price. The Chrysler 300 would get V6 gas and diesel and a V8, they could do the SRT Charger and Barracuda off the same platform which gives them 2 "halo" cars and something to appeal to the 55-60 year olds that used to drive muscle cars and still want that sort of car.

This also clears out the $15-30,000 mainstream car segments (where Chrysler is terrible anyway) for Fiat to move in with their econoboxes. When the 2025 CAFE hits, and as the younger urban generation takes over and the "traditional American car buyer" dies off, our car market is going to look a lot like Europe's does now.

It's just like talking to a brick wall. I guess the only way to get through to you would be to spray paint profane words on your face.

The Charger can die off because they have the 300, and they could replace the Challenger with a rear drive Chrysler coupe. There are rumors that the Challenger will be replaced by a Chrysler/SRT Barracuda in 2015. If they want to keep an SRT Charger, they could, then you a V8 only Charger (competition for Chevy SS) that can sell for near $50k. If people want V8s post 2015 they are going to have to pay a steep price. The Chrysler 300 would get V6 gas and diesel and a V8, they could do the SRT Charger and Barracuda off the same platform which gives them 2 "halo" cars and something to appeal to the 55-60 year olds that used to drive muscle cars and still want that sort of car.

This also clears out the $15-30,000 mainstream car segments (where Chrysler is terrible anyway) for Fiat to move in with their econoboxes. When the 2025 CAFE hits, and as the younger urban generation takes over and the "traditional American car buyer" dies off, our car market is going to look a lot like Europe's does now.

Just because you're that wrong, let's go through this one final time.

• A refreshed Challenger will debut next year for the 2015 model year on a new platform, coded LA. The current platform cannot support the new 8-speed automatic transmissions and still makes use of the old Daimler-sourced electrial system.
• A refreshed Charger is due around the same time with typical mid-cycle enhancement upgrades.
• In 2015, the Caravan replacement will debut. It could likely be the Caravan will remain as a minivan, or be "merged" with the Durango.
• In 2016, the Journey will be replaced. Remember, the Journey also enjoys strong popularity in other markets as the Fiat Freemont. Before you argue that it could just wind up here as a Fiat, sorry, no. It would work against Fiat's brand image in the United States. It will remain as a Dodge.
• The Durango either will be replaced or "merged" with the Caravan if it is molded to be more of a crossover rather than a minivan. Before you say it won't be replaced keep in mind the recent Durango refresh wasn't actually supposed to happen, but steady and rising demand for the Durango combined with a longer than expected gestation period for the upcoming related Jeep Wagoneer model prompted Chrysler to think otherwise. Also, the Wagoneer should move Jeep further upmarket when it arrives, putting some distance between it and the Durango.

Yeah, Dodge is going away in 2015 alright. In other news, I've also recently become a multi-millionaire who developed a cure for frigging cancer.

Don't believe anything I'm saying? Fine then. Google it for yourself. The basic gist of Chrysler's future product plans aren't exactly shrouded in secrecy, and it doesn't take that much to fill in the blanks if you follow the company close enough and use some common sense.

"A refreshed Challenger will debut next year for the 2015 model year on a new platform, coded LA. The current platform cannot support the new 8-speed automatic transmissions and still makes use of the old Daimler-sourced electrial system."

Huh? What's so different about the Challenger that it can't use the 8-speed while the 300 and Charger can? Or are you speaking strictly of the Hemi models?

Weird that from Autoweek to Autoblog to dodge forums all talk about the challenger going to the LA platform so it can get the 8 speed transmission and yet no one seems to say why it has to change to get the tranny. Is it an issue with the fire wall? An issue with the body design? I am interested also as to why it cannot use the 8 speed on the current platform?

My guess is that it's an issue with the Hemi and that most Challengers are sold with one so there is no point in building the V6+8speed model. None of the Hemi powered LX cars have the 8-speed.

That would make sense especially if they are going to build a Barracuda with a new SuperCharged Hemi + 8speed tranny. That would rock in the pony car wars.

"A refreshed Challenger will debut next year for the 2015 model year on a new platform, coded LA. The current platform cannot support the new 8-speed automatic transmissions and still makes use of the old Daimler-sourced electrial system."

Huh? What's so different about the Challenger that it can't use the 8-speed while the 300 and Charger can? Or are you speaking strictly of the Hemi models?

When Chrysler refreshed the Charger and 300 for the 2011 model year, they comprehensively redesigned the LX platform. I believe the floorpan had to be redesigned to accept the ZF 845RE/8HP45. In fact, I've read from a few different sources that the structure almost qualifies as being "all-new." On a related note, because the structure was so heavily revised and required a considerable investment, this is what prompted Marchionne to consider using a version of the LX-platform for the new Maserati Quattroporte and Ghibli (the two cars are LX-related; study the interior photos and check out some of the switchgear if you don't believe me).

Because the Challenger uses a modified (shortened) version of the old pre-2011 LX platform and floorpan, it cannot accept the 8-speed transmission with either the 3.6L Pentastar V6 or the 5.7L and 6.1L Hemi V8s. This is the same reason why Dodge hasn't updated the Challenger with the UConnect infotainment system; the old Daimler-sourced electrical system simply can't support it.

I've also read from a few sources that when the Challenger refresh debuts next year, it's structure will be almost entirely "all-new." That would make sense, considering what I mentioned earlier about the current LX platform.

Forgot to add ...

My guess is that it's an issue with the Hemi and that most Challengers are sold with one so there is no point in building the V6+8speed model. None of the Hemi powered LX cars have the 8-speed.

The Hemi/8-Speed combo should be coming the Charger's way for next year's refresh.

It isn't an issue with the Hemi. The Ram recieved the Hemi/8-speed duo for 2013.

Forgot to add ...

My guess is that it's an issue with the Hemi and that most Challengers are sold with one so there is no point in building the V6+8speed model. None of the Hemi powered LX cars have the 8-speed.

The Hemi/8-Speed combo should be coming the Charger's way for next year's refresh.

It isn't an issue with the Hemi. The Ram recieved the Hemi/8-speed duo for 2013.

Yeah, but that's a newer redesign and could have been built for it from the start.

I see the LX in the Ghibli, but aside from some buttons on the door, I see no similarity to the LX hardpoints in the Quattroporte..

Here is a Ward's Auto article on how on 2016 big changes are coming. Dodge won't get an Avenger replacement, Caravan goes away, Chrysler is getting a new 100 and new 200, maybe the Dart leaves too?

http://wardsauto.com/blog/dodge-s-future-and-other-questions-loom-fiat-chrysler

Another article on how most of the new Fiat-Chrysler cars coming post 2015 will be going to Fiat, and the Wards Auto article also stated that 75% of the Fiat-Chrysler cars post 2016 will be on a Fiat platform. Jeep is getting a 7-passenger Wagoneer, looks like the Durango will be doomed.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2013/02/07/chrysler-has-issues/

I could care less what Fiat and Chrysler do, I think they are both doomed anyway. My belief though is that Fiat will do what they think is best for Fiat, and not for Chrysler LLC.

Here is a Ward's Auto article on how on 2016 big changes are coming. Dodge won't get an Avenger replacement, Caravan goes away, Chrysler is getting a new 100 and new 200, maybe the Dart leaves too?

http://wardsauto.com/blog/dodge-s-future-and-other-questions-loom-fiat-chrysler

Another article on how most of the new Fiat-Chrysler cars coming post 2015 will be going to Fiat, and the Wards Auto article also stated that 75% of the Fiat-Chrysler cars post 2016 will be on a Fiat platform. Jeep is getting a 7-passenger Wagoneer, looks like the Durango will be doomed.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2013/02/07/chrysler-has-issues/

I could care less what Fiat and Chrysler do, I think they are both doomed anyway. My belief though is that Fiat will do what they think is best for Fiat, and not for Chrysler LLC.

Oh really? Is that so? Well, you'd better let the folks over at Chrysler know what's going on then. It seems they didn't get your memo.

Here's the graphic for Chrysler's revised five year plan:

Let me translate this for you one last time.

Dodge (through 2016):

• 2012: For the 2013 model year, the Dart was introduced.
• 2013: This year, the Durango received it's refresh . Dropped models were a Fiat-derived B-segment model and Avenger replacement (more on the latter in a moment).
• 2014: Next year will mark the introduction of the refreshed Charger and Challenger. Both will see the Hemi/8-Speed automatic combo and revised styling.
• 2015: The Dart will be refreshed and the Caravan (or Caravan/Durango) replacement introduced. Some current rumors suggest that the work completed for the cancelled Chrysler 100 sedan/hatch may lead to a new Dart hatchback.
• 2016: The Journey replacement debuts on CUSW. Additionally, it is strongly suggested but not confirmed that another new Dodge model -- likely the Avenger replacement -- will debut with a good chance of sharing a new rear-drive platform with Alfa Romeo. Here's some additional reading straight from the horse's mouth on this one. Marchionne has said that it wouldn't be economical to create a new rear-drive mid-sized car solely for Alfa Romeo alone, but it would pay dividends if he could make one that both Dodge and Alfa could share.

As I mentioned on the last page, it may be possible the Durango will also stick around after the Wagoneer's introduction in 2015, if it's unlikely that the Caravan replacement doesn't effectively replace it as well. Once again, the recent refresh wasn't intended to happen (as indicated per Chrysler's own plans), but steady sales and a two-year delay in the Wagoneer's development prompted Chrysler to do otherwise.

Here's what's going on over at Chrysler for reference.

Chrysler (through 2016):

• 2012: The Dart-related 100 hatch/sedan was dropped from the plans.
• 2013: Both a Fiat-derived B-segment model and crossover were dropped for this year.
• 2014: The next-generation 200 debuts based on a modified CUSW platform that will accept the Pentastar V6 (another nail in the 100's coffin). The 300 is refreshed with updates similar to the Dodge Charger.
• 2015: A new 200 convertible debuts alongside the new Town & Country. It's possible that the third model represented in the graphic here is a related model to the upcoming Journey replacement.
• 2016: With nothing being introduced for Chrysler this year, maybe Chrysler goes away. (Now, let me take my tongue out of my cheek.)

Check your sources next time. Oh wait, I forgot. You never check your sources and spout off whatever hateful thing you feel like spouting off about a brand you don't like.

Now that I'm finished, you can downrate this post, ehaase (everyone else: click the score down in the lower hand corner of the post to see what I'm seeing, if you're wondering). Or hopefully you'll be man enough this time to say something one on one?

Other information I forgot to share:

• This isn't a test mule for the Chrysler 100. It's actually a mule for the 200. Notice the (misleading) sticker above the fuel door that reads "PREMIUM FUEL" and the note taped to the center stack that reads "E85 ONLY?" That's likely because this car is testing the Pentastar V6 with the 9-speed automatic transmission for front-drive applications. The Pentastar V6 is E85 capable. Disregard the hatchback bodystyle; as we all should know by now, all CUSW mules use hacked up Alfa body shells for initial testing. Also, if you notice, the rear bumper has been extended on this mule, giving us a nod as to what the shell is really hiding.
• If SRT's recent promotion to brandhood is serving to further this "Dodge is dead" crap, don't look too deep into it. What Chrysler has done with that move is turn SRT into their own version of AMG, end of story.
• Marchionne is focusing on eliminating cannibalism and redundancy, not brands. That's making a long story short.