Dodge Last Call of the Charger/Challenger 2023 product line revealed!

Somehow I feel like there will be 2024 Charger and Challenger models.  And 2025 even if they are just 6 cylinder.  

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Somehow I feel like there will be 2024 Charger and Challenger models.  And 2025 even if they are just 6 cylinder.  

Nope, they are closing the factory down for conversion to the EV products they will build there, Plant closure is estimated to be between 30 to 60 days. Employees will be called back in specific shifts to learn the new equipment and test the process for assembly of the EVs they will build there. 

I truly think this is a push to maximize dollars due to the down time for conversion to EV assembly. Every plant that has gone through this change has taken longer than expected and I suspect it will be true for Stellantis as well.

Official, CEO of Dodge just confirmed the ICE Dodge Performance Cars are dead as of Dec 31st 2023 with the new Dodge Banshee Going into production as well as other variations.

Dodge CEO explains why he's killing the brand's V8 muscle cars (msn.com)

We'll I have to say that I am actually disappointed in DODGE. I feel they should have not given into the Demon past buyers and go with the Demon 170 name. It is just so underwhelming. I honestly think they could have done better.

What are they going to sell in 2024?  The Banshee is in concept form, although close to production ready, so maybe they they can get it production ready by January.  But do they have the supply chain worked out to actually build at scale?  
 

And Chrysler will be down to just a minivan since they have nothing in the pipeline except the Airflow which is pretty much vaporware at this point.

27 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

What are they going to sell in 2024?  The Banshee is in concept form, although close to production ready, so maybe they they can get it production ready by January.  But do they have the supply chain worked out to actually build at scale?  
 

And Chrysler will be down to just a minivan since they have nothing in the pipeline except the Airflow which is pretty much vaporware at this point.

I find it amazing that you assume they have nothing ready to go into production. They are retooling the same plant that builds the ICE Charger/Challengers for new Dodge EV cars. Logically it would be assumed that the working Banshee is able to be moved into production and for all we know they have mules of both an EV Charger and Challenger. Chrysler is also supposed to get next year their first EV, the Airflow that will be their first EV on Sale in 2024.

Chrysler Airflow Graphite

Chrysler Portal Concept that they showed is considered a work in progress for an EV minivan.

Dodge Charger Daytona SRT BANSHEE 

Dodge Charger Daytona SRT

Dodge has going on sale this year the Hornet Hybrid in RT and GT versions.

3 hours ago, David said:

I find it amazing that you assume they have nothing ready to go into production. They are retooling the same plant that builds the ICE Charger/Challengers for new Dodge EV cars. Logically it would be assumed that the working Banshee is able to be moved into production and for all we know they have mules of both an EV Charger and Challenger. Chrysler is also supposed to get next year their first EV, the Airflow that will be their first EV on Sale in 2024.

Chrysler Airflow Graphite

Chrysler Portal Concept that they showed is considered a work in progress for an EV minivan.

Dodge Charger Daytona SRT BANSHEE 

Dodge Charger Daytona SRT

Dodge has going on sale this year the Hornet Hybrid in RT and GT versions.

I know they have the Hornet, Alfa Romeos are pretty sales proof, I doubt the Hornet will be any big seller, but at least it is a product in a big segment.  

I get that they have the Daytona/Banshee EV Charger and Airflow in the works, but if the Charger Daytona is 2-door only, that limits sales right off the bat.  And do they actually have the battery capacity to crank these out?

Cadillac sold like 900 Lyrics last year, Hyundai and Kia only managed about 20k Ioniq 5 and EV6 a piece last year, Mach E was about 39k, and all 3 of those about doubled their 2021 numbers as they ramped production.  Dodge and Chrysler might sell 20k EV's combined next year, along with the Durango that already has $5000 cash back offers since it is old as dirt, the Pacifica is slumping and we'll see with the Hornet.  I don't see a lot of sales volume out of Stellantis, who also is killing the Cherokee.  

Not to mention Stellantis dealers seem to be stocking all the high end trims, and carrying Wranglers and Grand Cherokees with $60k price tags at a time with high interest rates (Fed raised them again today) and what most people think is a slowing economy with inflation hitting everything else.

 The buyer pool for $60-100k vehicles is only so big, and the luxury brands are already there, any legacy OEM that abandons the under $45k price tier is basically handing it over to Tesla when the next-gen car arrives.  Tesla Model Y was the #3 selling vehicle in the USA last month, the next gen car will sell better, take the sales crown from the F150, especially after the Cybertruck wrecks the sales of full size trucks.  

I assume the Charger EV will be a low volume novelty though.   Can't imagine the police fleet volume of Chargers going to the EV version.   Definitely going to be interesting to see what comes out in the next year or so.  

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 Tesla Model Y was the #3 selling vehicle in the USA last month, the next gen car will sell better, take the sales crown from the F150, especially after the Cybertruck wrecks the sales of full size trucks.  

I can't imagine the Cybertruck will ever be in high production, let alone 'wrecking' the sales of full size trucks...it's just a novelty..no way that garbage will outsell the F150.

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I assume the Charger EV will be a low volume novelty though.   Can't imagine the police fleet volume of Chargers going to the EV version.   Definitely going to be interesting to see what comes out in the next year or so.  

I can't imagine the Cybertruck will ever be in high production, let alone 'wrecking' the sales of full size trucks...it's just a novelty..no way that garbage will outsell the F150.

1.5 million reservations for Cybertruck, but lets say in reality they sell 200-250,000 per year, that still steals maybe 50k each from Ford, GM and Ram, maybe a few from Toyota and a few new truck buyers.  It still disrupts.

The next-gen Tesla that is half the cost to build as a current Model 3/Y will outsell the F150. If the Cybertruck over performs or Tesla cuts price of Model Y again, Model Y might surpass the F150.

I think the Charger EV will be low volume, just like the Airflow will be low volume, the Hornet and all Alfa Romeos are low volume, Pacifica and Durango are sinking volume.  Not sure how any of those brands survives without volume because without big economies of scale, EV's are money losers.

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

1.5 million reservations for Cybertruck, but lets say in reality they sell 200-250,000 per year, that still steals maybe 50k each from Ford, GM and Ram, maybe a few from Toyota and a few new truck buyers.  It still disrupts.

 

The Cybertruck is one body style only, not remotely competitive with the F150.   You actually think there will be a next generation that competes w/ the F150?   I doubt it...they haven't even made a 2nd generation of the Model S.  Tiny company, poor quality, unable to compete w/ real car companies...claiming they will have a product that will outsell the F150 is just fanboy dreamer BS.

@smk4565 You really have a hard time looking at the future and seeing how things are changing and growing. EV sales have continued to increase, oil production is pretty much maxed out around the world and society is moving forward with EVs. You quote low sales numbers for Cadillac, Kia, Hyundai and never even mention how low they are for the Germans. 

With that stated, everyone is ramping up as I have stated before especially about battery cell production.

Others here have repeated the same message that GM has stated about Lyriq. They have ramped slowly to ensure World Class Quality. As such, it was slow in 2023. January alone production was over 8,000 per GM and reported by many media outlets. They say the first quarter production numbers will be big. If they truly average 8,000 per month based on January production, that is 24,000 LYRIQs for Q1. I have not seen anyone else, other than Tesla produce in those numbers.

GM Says Cadillac Lyriq Production Is Finally Ramping Up in a Big Way (thedrive.com)

@Robert Hall Dodge has already been working with many police departments as they all move to the Dodge Durango Pursuit SSV SUV. Police officers have in larger and larger numbers preferred an SUV due to the amount of equipment they wear and carry. You can check it out here:

2023 Dodge Durango Pursuit - Stellantis Fleet & Business Solutions

This is why Ford and GM dropped police cars and focused on trucks and SUVs. The gear police carry just cannot be handled as well as in an SUV or truck.

I agree with you that the Tesla Cybertruck will be a Tesla fan novelty item and I do not see it ever replacing the Fords, GM or Rams.

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

1.5 million reservations for Cybertruck, but lets say in reality they sell 200-250,000 per year, that still steals maybe 50k each from Ford, GM and Ram, maybe a few from Toyota and a few new truck buyers.  It still disrupts.

The next-gen Tesla that is half the cost to build as a current Model 3/Y will outsell the F150. If the Cybertruck over performs or Tesla cuts price of Model Y again, Model Y might surpass the F150.

I think the Charger EV will be low volume, just like the Airflow will be low volume, the Hornet and all Alfa Romeos are low volume, Pacifica and Durango are sinking volume.  Not sure how any of those brands survives without volume because without big economies of scale, EV's are money losers.

Sales chart still shows the current trend and the Tesla Cybertruck 1.5 million reservations is Global according to Musk, which you cannot trust as he does not deliver on anything except delays and only a portion.

Nissan is getting out of the full size truck game, so that is gone. I would be willing to say if they produce and sell their 1 trick pony truck in North America for 200,000 to 250,000 across all of North America, including Canada it still will not be much affect as Robert stated, they do not have all the various configurations that the other trucks have.

In regards to the Low EV sales numbers are you basing this on the poor sales of Mercedes to say everyone else will be just like MB. Terrible sales of EVs?

None of us can really tell how well any EV will sell. When Mercedes-Benz announced their first EV, a certain person said it would outsell everyone else and yet sales have not been that great. They sit on the lots and are taking much longer to sell compared to other brands.

Ford, Kia, Hyundai have stated ramps in building their EVs as they are selling everything they produce. GM is ramping up production to ensure quality and especially as their battery plants come online.

Right now I really cannot say that EVs will sell big or low, other than they will sell and once we have bigger variety and price points, EVs will sell.

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

The Cybertruck is one body style only, not remotely competitive with the F150.   You actually think there will be a next generation that competes w/ the F150?   I doubt it...they haven't even made a 2nd generation of the Model S.  Tiny company, poor quality, unable to compete w/ real car companies...claiming they will have a product that will outsell the F150 is just dreamer BS.

I think the Cybertruck will be more than competitive with the F150 Lightning that is supply constrained and over priced.

By next-gen car, I mean the $25,000 Tesla coming from the Mexico plant, and later other plants.  That is game over for Corolla, Civic, HR-V, Kicks, Trailblazer, Trax, etc.  Elon's goal is 20 million units per year, the world car market is roughly 80 million units per year and not expected to grow, so legacy OEM is going to lose a lot of market share in the next 10 years.

Ford loses $9,000 per EV sold, Tesla makes $9,500 per car.  Ford has an $18,500 cost issue to overcome, that is a big ask.

9 minutes ago, David said:

@smk4565 You really have a hard time looking at the future and seeing how things are changing and growing. EV sales have continued to increase, oil production is pretty much maxed out around the world and society is moving forward with EVs. You quote low sales numbers for Cadillac, Kia, Hyundai and never even mention how low they are for the Germans. 

With that stated, everyone is ramping up as I have stated before especially about battery cell production.

Others here have repeated the same message that GM has stated about Lyriq. They have ramped slowly to ensure World Class Quality. As such, it was slow in 2023. January alone production was over 8,000 per GM and reported by many media outlets. They say the first quarter production numbers will be big. If they truly average 8,000 per month based on January production, that is 24,000 LYRIQs for Q1. I have not seen anyone else, other than Tesla produce in those numbers.

GM Says Cadillac Lyriq Production Is Finally Ramping Up in a Big Way (thedrive.com)

@Robert Hall Dodge has already been working with many police departments as they all move to the Dodge Durango Pursuit SSV SUV. Police officers have in larger and larger numbers preferred an SUV due to the amount of equipment they wear and carry. You can check it out here:

2023 Dodge Durango Pursuit - Stellantis Fleet & Business Solutions

This is why Ford and GM dropped police cars and focused on trucks and SUVs. The gear police carry just cannot be handled as well as in an SUV or truck.

I agree with you that the Tesla Cybertruck will be a Tesla fan novelty item and I do not see it ever replacing the Fords, GM or Rams.

iD4 sales suck too.  The Taycan and EQS sell quite well for $100,000+ cars.  What Audi, BMW, Mercedes have to do is get their volume level EV's cranking, and essentially covert the 2 million per year ICE sales they had in 2020 to 2 million EV sales in 2030.  But they already took the hit from Tesla, Tesla isn't making more cars aimed at them, they are making cars aimed at the mainstream car brands.  So the German luxury brands will probably be okay there.

I agree it is about scaling up, and Tesla is the only one running at real scale right now.  I see the challenge of the next 10 years not in who builds the best car, it is in who can scale up and produce EV's at a price masses can afford.  Look at an EV6 or Ionic 5, basically $50,000 cars when Kia/Hyundai customers are used to paying $30,000 for a small crossover. The Ioniq 5 should be $30,000, not $50,000, otherwise it is a low volume car, not a volume seller.  If GM can run 300,000 Equinox EV at $30,000 price point, well done to them, that is the sort of thing it will take to survive.

Just now, smk4565 said:

I think the Cybertruck will be more than competitive with the F150 Lightning that is supply constrained and over priced.

By next-gen car, I mean the $25,000 Tesla coming from the Mexico plant, and later other plants.  That is game over for Corolla, Civic, HR-V, Kicks, Trailblazer, Trax, etc.  Elon's goal is 20 million units per year, the world car market is roughly 80 million units per year and not expected to grow, so legacy OEM is going to lose a lot of market share in the next 10 years.

Ford loses $9,000 per EV sold, Tesla makes $9,500 per car.  Ford has an $18,500 cost issue to overcome, that is a big ask.

Tesla has NEVER delivered on Price and Musk at Investor day already said their focus will be on the top end Cybertruck, a $100,000 truck, so again limited production.

Tesla has talked about a $35,000 Tesla 3 and never delivered in large quantities only to then just stop it all together. A $25,000 Tesla will not be here for years. They have no production capacity for it, Mexico is 2 years away at least and would still need to be fitted with equipment so realistically 3 years if they really do have any test mules which reality is they do not. Only in 2022 did Tesla finally start building Cybertruck test mules. Production is now slated end of 2023. So maybe 2027 if someone can actually keep Tesla on schedule, realistically 2030 based on Tesla past performance of building, testing and production. They still have the Roadster 2.0 that has had no movement on yet.

GM will beat Tesla to market as will many other Legacy OEMs to a low priced EV before Tesla ever delivers.

Show us the proof on the Ford Loss per EV compared to Tesla? Tesla is a Shell game with overpriced stock based on Fan boys. 

Yes Tesla helped finally move the auto industry along to EVs, but Tesla is not the profit center you think it is.

Many up and down stories, but I will go with this one.

Here's Why Tesla Is So Profitable | The Motley Fool

It is a very positive writeup on Tesla profits, but it also ignores one big problem for Tesla. Products built on a long in the Tooth old platform and as other options come onto the market, Tesla will not be growing like they have. 2023 will be a very bigg difference in the EV market.

Musk has preached the BS line of 20 million units a year for years and it will not happen for Tesla. Too many auto companies, too many options for society and Tesla is reaching a point where their CEO will be a hindering problem rather than a positive one as he continues to open mouth and insert foot as he makes thing Political. That will turn off many. It is already showing up with low mileage Tesla on the used market as people trade them in for other EV options.

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

iD4 sales suck too.  

This is a well know supply issue as the ID.4 for the North American Market was all built in Germany and shipped here. Now that their Tennessee plant is up, Q3 and Q4 were records sales of ID.4 in North America and 2023 is expected to be a banner year for VW in EV sales.

This was from an story dated Oct 2022. As they were starting to build and get things going here in the U.S., VW started to hold off sending ID.4 EVs to the U.S. Q3 was the first actual production of ID.4 EVs built in the U.S. 6,657 were built in Q3 2022. Q4 2022 they sold 9,439 ID.4 EVs.

Volkswagen of America (VWoA) reports total year 2022 sales - Volkswagen US Media Site

US: Volkswagen ID.4 Hit New Sales Record In Q3 2022 (insideevs.com)

6 hours ago, David said:

We'll I have to say that I am actually disappointed in DODGE. I feel they should have not given into the Demon past buyers and go with the Demon 170 name. It is just so underwhelming. I honestly think they could have done better.

I too...am DEEPLY dissapoint in the name.   I understand the 'fun' reasons where the 170 number comes from, its just abnormally boring coming from Dodge.    

1. The name is brain numbing boring

2. The reasons beind the name is even worse.   170 ethanol proof???!!!    The phoque???!!!   At least reason #2 is a tad  more exciting as its the code number for the Hellephant crate engine: C170 

But, its the name they chose and so Dodge will sell every Demon 170 they make and truth be told, it seems like any and EVERY Last Call Charger and Challenger will ALREADY have collector car status and most of them are not even built yet.   

I thought the same about the Demon 170 name. So tame.  The Hellcat image is outrageous, the name should be outrageous.   Something like Demon Tire Mutilator, Demon Defecator ( since it sh*ts all over the competition), Demon Dominator…

I read that the silver and black 170 they have been showing to the press has been stolen already. 

The only question left is, what version are you?

I am THIS version!!! 

But if Im buying a Challenger for myself...I dont want or need a Last Call version.  Nor a Demon.  A regular Hellcat is what I always wanted and that hasnt changed since 2015.  Ill go with a Red-Eye.  

Regular or widebody.   Uniform body colour all the way through or  black hood.  No stripes. Original hood or twin snorkel.  Prefer the twin snorkel hood though.   In those 3 colours.

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall As I watched the Demon 170 reveal, when they gave the Name, the online crowd was so disappointed. So many pointed to the evil little leprechaun they used to tease this car. 

Many thought it would be named using some of the evil Leprechaun names like "Killian" or "Mordecai". Many thought they would use actual Demon names such as "Succubus" or "Incubi".

End result, I am sure there were Legal concerns about the naming of the auto and they already owned the Demon name, but I still feel this is one of the biggest let downs by a auto company after all the buildup.

I still wouldn't mind having a Challenger..though I don't need a Hellcat..the regular R/T or R/T Scat Pack 392 w/ a manual and maybe the wide body would be fine, as long as it's in F8 green or octane red.

Maybe I'll get a CPO or otherwise clean late model one when I get my property plans sorted (got to have more garage space).  Though I do like the 2015+ Mustang quite a bit also.

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall

As I sit here working, I started to laugh as the image in my mind formed of a bible thumping individual arriving at Sunday church in their Demon 170, Swinger, Black Ghost, etc.

One can only imagine what would be going through the heads of the people.

?

Be interesting to see the final details over the last year of Camaro and what Ford does with the Mustang.

30 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I read that the silver and black 170 they have been showing to the press has been stolen already. 

LOL

Doesnt surprise me.   As much as I have given shyte to Hyundai and Kia for theft problems stemming from corporate idiot decisions, Stellantis (Dodge) should know better to protect the these cars from theft as these cars have been on the hot list since at least 5 years now.   And they still havent done anything to address to curtail some of the theivery done.  Yes...I understand a thief will always find a way, a back door of sorts, but proof that Dodge has done nothing to curtail this problem as theives steal them straight from the dealership.   Not good! 

5 minutes ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall

As I sit here working, I started to laugh as the image in my mind formed of a bible thumping individual arriving at Sunday church in their Demon 170, Swinger, Black Ghost, etc.

One can only imagine what would be going through the heads of the people.

?

Be interesting to see the final details over the last year of Camaro and what Ford does with the Mustang.

Bible thumping Republican?  Of Fox News swillin' morons? 

Nothing will arise.

1. hypocrites 

2. too stupid to see the irony

11 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

LOL

Doesnt surprise me.   As much as I have given shyte to Hyundai and Kia for theft problems stemming from corporate idiot decisions, Stellantis (Dodge) should know better to protect the these cars from theft as these cars have been on the hot list since at least 5 years now.   And they still havent done anything to address to curtail some of the theivery done.  Yes...I understand a thief will always find a way, a back door of sorts, but proof that Dodge has done nothing to curtail this problem as theives steal them straight from the dealership.   Not good! 

Bible thumping Republican?  Of Fox News swillin' morons? 

Nothing will arise.

1. hypocrites 

2. too stupid to see the irony

Too True, So many Hellcats stolen in less than 60 seconds. Latest robbery of 6 from a dealership that had it happen with the last order of Hellcats they had too. Dealership been hit twice with having them all ripped off.

I wonder what the deal w/ all the Hellcat thefts is...do they have a particular vulnerability w/ the ignition or locks?   Or are thieves getting smarter and more clever... 

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Somehow I feel like there will be 2024 Charger and Challenger models.  And 2025 even if they are just 6 cylinder.  

You are not entirely wrong though...

Stellantis has this new inline 6...   Brand new.  It hasnt debuted yet.  But it will. 

They will put this engine into something and sell it like soon.  Like in 2024 soon.  

5 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You are not entirely wrong though...

Stellantis has this new inline 6...   Brand new.  It hasnt debuted yet.  But it will. 

They will put this engine into something and sell it like soon.  Like in 2024 soon.  

I do wonder if the Charger and Challenger will continue.  It hasn’t been clear to me if 2023 is just the end of the Hellcat models or the end of the current Charger and Challenger generation completely.  They are being quiet about that unless I’ve misunderstood. 

I hope they do use it in cars.  I assume Ram will get it for trucks and Jeep will use it elsewhere.  

17 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I wonder what the deal w/ all the Hellcat thefts is...do they have a particular vulnerability w/ the ignition or locks?   Or are thieves getting smarter and more clever... 

Based on local news, it would seem they had knowledge of the dealership's security system. Speeds were exceeding 180 mph.

Thieves steal 6 cars from Somerset dealership, 1 arrested | whas11.com

This has been going on for years as this was from 2021. Seems these theives have figured out a black box that allows them to not have the keys and start and steal the cars.

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I do wonder if the Charger and Challenger will continue.  It hasn’t been clear to me if 2023 is just the end of the Hellcat models or the end of the current Charger and Challenger generation completely.  They are being quiet about that unless I’ve misunderstood. 

I hope they do use it in cars.  I assume Ram will get it for trucks and Jeep will use it elsewhere.  

Will be interesting to see if they do use the inline 6 motor and build at another plant as the core plant that builds all the Chargers/Challengers, all models is closing down for conversion to EVs.

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall @ccap41 @surreal1272 @Drew Dowdell @trinacriabob @riviera74

Check out what the Hellcat can do on the German Autobahn.

3 hours ago, David said:

@smk4565 

Sales chart still shows the current trend and the Tesla Cybertruck 1.5 million reservations is Global according to Musk, which you cannot trust as he does not deliver on anything except delays and only a portion.

Nissan is getting out of the full size truck game, so that is gone. I would be willing to say if they produce and sell their 1 trick pony truck in North America for 200,000 to 250,000 across all of North America, including Canada it still will not be much affect as Robert stated, they do not have all the various configurations that the other trucks have.

In regards to the Low EV sales numbers are you basing this on the poor sales of Mercedes to say everyone else will be just like MB. Terrible sales of EVs?

So Cybertruck could take 10-15% of that market, I think that is pretty reasonable.  That still puts the F150 to about 600k units a year, the Model Y could pass that.

Mercedes EV sales aren't poor, the EQS is the only one that was on sale all last year, it is the #2 selling vehicle over $100,000 ICE or EV and it is only #2 because Mercedes makes the #1 seller.  The EQS outsold the Taycan, the 911, even outsold the Cadillac CT4 that is 1/3rd the price.  Mercedes too though needs to ramp up more production and they need the smaller size EVs because the volume lives there, not with a $125,000 sedan.  

And my point is not about low EV sales, it is more about profitability of EV sales, which these low volume producers don't make any money.  And my other point is Tesla hasn't hit the mainstream price yet, once you can get a Tesla for the same price as an ICE Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Hyundai/etc and then get a tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, less depreciation, a Tesla becomes cheaper than owning a Corolla.  That is game over for the legacy OEM's.

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

I do wonder if the Charger and Challenger will continue.  It hasn’t been clear to me if 2023 is just the end of the Hellcat models or the end of the current Charger and Challenger generation completely.  They are being quiet about that unless I’ve misunderstood. 

I hope they do use it in cars.  I assume Ram will get it for trucks and Jeep will use it elsewhere.  

I have the same thoughts as you do.  Nothing is clear about what actually happens to the Charger and Challenger.  Im also under the impression that only the V8s are gone.  I think the inline 6 will be the last gasoline engine to power Stellantis vehicles in North America until Stellantis in North America goes all EV.   And that includes the Alfa Romeos both SUVs and the Quadrofolio sedan.   

Although I miss the V8s in the Mopar muscle cars already (and they are not gone just yet...), I am curious to see what kind of Challenger (andCharger) that inline 6 will make them into.  Although Id prefer a lighter new platform Challenger (same size though) for the inline 6 to power, I am down with an inline 6 to them.  And I agree with @smk4565.  I dont think they are truly gone just yet.  And like how he says it...as 6 cylinder models.  

1 hour ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall @ccap41 @surreal1272 @Drew Dowdell @trinacriabob @riviera74

Check out what the Hellcat can do on the German Autobahn.

 

Feels right at home, doesnt it???!!!    Not forgetting its got German ancestry...   Id say the ONLY good thing to come out of that merger is that we eventually got the Challenger, Charger and Chrysler 300 from Mercedes.  Not forgetting the Magnum wagon.      

I often think about what it be like if the 300 got Hellcatted and the Magnum as well!.  

Id rock a Magnum Hellcat with a current gen Charger front end!

Id definetely trade in my TL for a Hellcat 300 and to hell with Quebec gasoline prices.  Id sell a kidney to finance the gas for one. LOL  

Id go for the original Hellcat hood.  All black.  Just 6 chromed Hellcat logos.   1 on each side of the front fenders and 4 on the wheels. The center caps. The mags from the original Chalenger Hellcat.  Black mags.   Wide body.  And when I say all balck...I mean all black. Just the Hellcat logos are to be shiny and blingy chrome. That is it.  

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Id go for the original Hellcat hood.  All black.  Just 6 chromed Hellcat logos.   1 on each side of the front fenders and 4 on the wheels. The center caps.  That is it.  

Those are in the style of the Charger Hellcat.  I’d go for a super subtle Hellcat 300 styled like the 300C SRT back in 2013.    Black or dark gray, low key trim, lots of power.  

2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Those are in the style of the Charger Hellcat.  I’d go for a super subtle Hellcat 300 styled like the 300C SRT back in 2013.    Black or dark gray, low key trim, lots of power.  

Subtle is a nice way to go.  Especially the way the 300C SRT8 was in 2013.  I agree!!!

With me though, Id like to flash a little bit of the wild side.   

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Subtle is a nice way to go.  Especially the way the 300C SRT8 was in 2013.  I agree!!!

With me though, Id like to flash a little bit of the wild side.   

I get that.  There is a place for everything.   
I saw a pic of a dark green CT5-v recently.  Love the muscle car in a tuxedo sport sedan style.  

7 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I get that.  There is a place for everything.   
I saw a pic of a dark green CT5-v recently.  Love the muscle car in a tuxedo sport sedan style.  

Robert you talking about this OEM color that they had on the 2020 CT5-V?

4 minutes ago, David said:

Robert you talking about this OEM color that they had on the 2020 CT5-V?

Yes, love that color.  Haven’t seen one in person yet.  

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Yes, love that color.  Haven’t seen one in person yet.  

I have and would love that Metallic Green on an Escalade. It is deep, rich and just beautiful. Great Green color, I am surprised that Cadillac does not offer it on the LYRIQ.

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

So Cybertruck could take 10-15% of that market, I think that is pretty reasonable.  That still puts the F150 to about 600k units a year, the Model Y could pass that.

Mercedes EV sales aren't poor, the EQS is the only one that was on sale all last year, it is the #2 selling vehicle over $100,000 ICE or EV and it is only #2 because Mercedes makes the #1 seller.  The EQS outsold the Taycan, the 911, even outsold the Cadillac CT4 that is 1/3rd the price.  Mercedes too though needs to ramp up more production and they need the smaller size EVs because the volume lives there, not with a $125,000 sedan.  

And my point is not about low EV sales, it is more about profitability of EV sales, which these low volume producers don't make any money.  And my other point is Tesla hasn't hit the mainstream price yet, once you can get a Tesla for the same price as an ICE Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Hyundai/etc and then get a tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, less depreciation, a Tesla becomes cheaper than owning a Corolla.  That is game over for the legacy OEM's.

I see some dipped their whole head into the devils lettuces before they posted this, with the coup de grace being "a Tesla becomes cheaper than owning a Corolla.".

BTW, I think I will compare Escalade sales to Sprinter van sales, while we are it. Or how about Ford F-150 sales against Mercedes Benz EQE (in the same vain as your asinine EQS to CT4 sales comparison)? That sounds about right, doesn't it?

Just pure fanboy nonsense SMK. Sorry.

For some reason, I just don't give a sht about this car. EVs, 911 Turbos and such cars have made me care less about insane quarter mile times. Cars that can make insane passes AND do other things are cool but, this doesn't do anything for me. 

For a one-trick pony, I'm sure one could get this performance with a GT500 with slicks, a pulley, and a tune and it can also take corners and stop. Probably damn close with a ZL1, as well. Heck, probably a Hellcat Redeye, too. 

Yeah, yeah yeah, modded VS stock... but this is one very expensive one-trick pony. 

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

1.5 million reservations for Cybertruck, but lets say in reality they sell 200-250,000 per year, that still steals maybe 50k each from Ford, GM and Ram, maybe a few from Toyota and a few new truck buyers.  It still disrupts.

I cannot imagine them selling 200-250k vehicles for more than one year, when it's hot and new. Once the novelty wears off, it just doesn't come off as a truck that can sell a quarter million units a year, consistently. 

Knowing their Model X pricing, starting at $99,990., I can't imagine a truck will be much less. I know Elon claimed 40k or whatnot, but this won't be had for under 100k for awhile. 

There are so many details we don't have on this hypothetical truck yet that it's tough to say anything about it. Ford will have a 2nd gen Lightning by the time this is out and both Ram and GM will have theirs in customers' hands already. So yeah, it may take some sales back but by being so damn late, they'll already have lost hundreds of thousands of sales to the D3. 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I cannot imagine them selling 200-250k vehicles for more than one year, when it's hot and new. Once the novelty wears off, it just doesn't come off as a truck that can sell a quarter million units a year, consistently. 

Knowing their Model X pricing, starting at $99,990., I can't imagine a truck will be much less. I know Elon claimed 40k or whatnot, but this won't be had for under 100k for awhile. 

There are so many details we don't have on this hypothetical truck yet that it's tough to say anything about it. Ford will have a 2nd gen Lightning by the time this is out and both Ram and GM will have theirs in customers' hands already. So yeah, it may take some sales back but by being so damn late, they'll already have lost hundreds of thousands of sales to the D3. 

Totally agree and as I posted in my response to him above, Musk at the investors day meeting said they would be focusing on the top end Cybertruck first, a truck that is 6 figures. So they will not if ever have a common persons truck like Ford, GM or Ram.

15 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Stellantis has this new inline 6...   Brand new.  It hasn't debuted yet.  But it will.

It's in the Grand Wagoneer already, maybe the Wagoneer, as well. 

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-jeep-wagoneer-l-hurricane-i-6-first-test-review/

9 minutes ago, David said:

Totally agree and as I posted in my response to him above, Musk at the investors day meeting said they would be focusing on the top end Cybertruck first, a truck that is 6 figures. So they will not if ever have a common persons truck like Ford, GM or Ram.

Exactly, and we all understand why. Most companies do the same thing. 

I don't foresee a 40k Cybertruck ever though. That was announced like 5 years ago and inflation has been insane. I could guess a 50k work truck version may possibly be a thing...but I'm not too confident in that either. This will be a 100k vehicle and they're not selling 200-250,000 $100k of these a year. Nobody has sales like that. Nothing could possibly have demand like that. 

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I have the same thoughts as you do.  Nothing is clear about what actually happens to the Charger and Challenger.  Im also under the impression that only the V8s are gone.  I think the inline 6 will be the last gasoline engine to power Stellantis vehicles in North America until Stellantis in North America goes all EV.   And that includes the Alfa Romeos both SUVs and the Quadrofolio sedan.   

Although I miss the V8s in the Mopar muscle cars already (and they are not gone just yet...), I am curious to see what kind of Challenger (andCharger) that inline 6 will make them into.  Although Id prefer a lighter new platform Challenger (same size though) for the inline 6 to power, I am down with an inline 6 to them.  And I agree with @smk4565.  I dont think they are truly gone just yet.  And like how he says it...as 6 cylinder models.  

They can sell Pentastar V6, Charger, Challenger, 300 for a couple more years easily.  Well they can easily keep them around, might take cash back deals to actually sell them,  

If they plan to keep the LH cars around a while they could put the inline 6 in, I assume that will take some engineering dollars that they may not want to spend.  But if they want to, they could sell a 500 hp inline 6 SRT Charger and slap some hurricane stickers on it and they could be selling SRT “last call” Challengers in 2027.

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Exactly, and we all understand why. Most companies do the same thing. 

I don't foresee a 40k Cybertruck ever though. That was announced like 5 years ago and inflation has been insane. I could guess a 50k work truck version may possibly be a thing...but I'm not too confident in that either. This will be a 100k vehicle and they're not selling 200-250,000 $100k of these a year. Nobody has sales like that. Nothing could possibly have demand like that. 

It has to be around $50k to start to get the 200,000 volume I think.  That’s the magic number because we see how GM, Ford and Ram pushed truck prices to 60, 70, 80 thousand and now these trucks are stuck on dealer lots.  A $60k loan at 6.5% is about $1100 a month for 6 years.  Then add gas, maintenance, insurance, it is like $1500 a month to drive a new pick up. Not going to be a huge buyer pool if they keep pushing prices and interest rates stay high.  
 

If Tesla is priced like an ICE truck with $7500 tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, better resale value then there is a big cost savings for the Tesla.

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It has to be around $50k to start to get the 200,000 volume I think.  That’s the magic number because we see how GM, Ford and Ram pushed truck prices to 60, 70, 80 thousand and now these trucks are stuck on dealer lots.  A $60k loan at 6.5% is about $1100 a month for 6 years.  Then add gas, maintenance, insurance, it is like $1500 a month to drive a new pick up. Not going to be a huge buyer pool if they keep pushing prices and interest rates stay high.  
 

If Tesla is priced like an ICE truck with $7500 tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, better resale value then there is a big cost savings for the Tesla.

"If...if...if"

We have been hearing that about the Cybertruck for what...three years now? 

And your price point argument ignores a couple of things. First, the Cybertruck will not be even $50K, as it has already been pointed out. Second, while the D3 have pushed their tuck towards higher price points, $80K trucks are not even close to their volume and they start at around $15K LESS then this hypothetical $50K entry price of the Cybertruck. Two words for you regarding the D3 volume movers. "Work" and "truck". Third, the loan rate talk applies to Tesla as well so, how exactly does that help them get to that magical 200K number?

This is not even close to a legitimate comparison (in regards to sales volume and price points) and you know that but you have been pushing this "if, if, if" nonsense for so long, regarding the Cybertruck, that it just like Elons claims over the last three years. Just empty words and white noise. 

25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It has to be around $50k to start to get the 200,000 volume I think.  That’s the magic number because we see how GM, Ford and Ram pushed truck prices to 60, 70, 80 thousand and now these trucks are stuck on dealer lots.  A $60k loan at 6.5% is about $1100 a month for 6 years.  Then add gas, maintenance, insurance, it is like $1500 a month to drive a new pick up. Not going to be a huge buyer pool if they keep pushing prices and interest rates stay high.  
 

If Tesla is priced like an ICE truck with $7500 tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, better resale value then there is a big cost savings for the Tesla.

You can't ACTUALLY believe they'll be selling 50k trucks though, right? 

Just the mass/size alone and a stainless steel body will bring their costs well above a Model 3. A Model 3 with AWD starts at 53k. 

I just cannot fathom how this could be priced in the 50k price range. Maybe their complete base model(that likely will only be on sale for a few months, like the 35k Model 3) will be shown for 50k. But, everybody and their brother knows this thing will not be a 50k truck once you add AWD (because it's a truck and I'd wager 90% of orders will be AWD) and a battery to go 300 miles or more. 

"At the event in Los Angeles, Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced that the new Cybertruck will start at $39,900 before incentives, but there will be two more AWD variations that will start at $49,900 and $69,900 respectively." 

That's a quote from who knows how long ago but it was supposed to be on sale in 2021, then 2022. It's 2023. It's supposed to start production this year...but we'll have to see what ACTUALLY happens here.  

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You can't ACTUALLY believe they'll be selling 50k trucks though, right? 

Just the mass/size alone and a stainless steel body will bring their costs well above a Model 3. A Model 3 with AWD starts at 53k. 

I just cannot fathom how this could be priced in the 50k price range. Maybe their complete base model(that likely will only be on sale for a few months, like the 35k Model 3) will be shown for 50k. But, everybody and their brother knows this thing will not be a 50k truck once you add AWD (because it's a truck and I'd wager 90% of orders will be AWD) and a battery to go 300 miles or more. 

"At the event in Los Angeles, Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced that the new Cybertruck will start at $39,900 before incentives, but there will be two more AWD variations that will start at $49,900 and $69,900 respectively." 

That's a quote from who knows how long ago but it was supposed to be on sale in 2021, then 2022. It's 2023. It's supposed to start production this year...but we'll have to see what ACTUALLY happens here.  

They could do rwd base at $50k, awd at $60k is what I am thinking.  Tesla has a more efficient manufacturing process with newer plants than the legacy OEM’s.  That is where Tesla is winning.  They also vertically integrate, rather than buying everything from suppliers who have a mark up, then sell to a dealer that has a mark up.