FCA Gets Hit With A $105 Million Fine Over Jeep/Ram Recalls

After '08 they had to pick their spots. Profits had to come first.

^ Does GM still own the HUMMER name??? I thought it got sold..

As Willy said.. it was retained. GM did a clever thing with that one too. They retained the name and use it on a cologne currently to prevent a struggle later and a possibility of extended marketing.

THAT'S how they did it! I remember now... Although it would take a certain kind of guy to tell his missus he wears Hummer cologne

Bull$h!.   Not only Jeeps and LXs, but Ram, the 200 is in the top 5 best selling midsize sedans right now BLASTING the Malibu out of the water.  Journey and Dart are seeing record sales and considering the Journey's tooling was paid off years ago (same with the minivans), the thing is a money maker.  And, FYI,, Chrysler has the LOWEST percent of fleet of the big 3 and of last mo nth outsold Ford in retail sales AND had quicker growth in the market than Ford did for the first half of this year. 

 

U might be stupid, but I'll keep it between just the two of us.

The Ram may have been a profit center, but the looming financial calamity from its recent recall might just be a negative in terms of profitability overall. I would explain to U just how even a mere buyback of 100K, let alone 200K would result in a huge red mark in cash and profitability from a line that has been at the very least heavily discounted since 2013. 

The 200 has had a few good months, but bet U a bunch of money that it isn't making PROFITS yet on its own.. and anything coming in from it is because its shared platform with the Cherokee and Giulietta. I won't even include the Dart in that yet.

I also kno of FCA's fleet percentage, but must point out to U that their fleet numbers are the most telling tail. Their overall Profit shows what 'm talking about as well. $364 Million for the entire company without any special terms to speak of. I won't even get into the debt that FCA has accumulated. 

There has been talk of GMC having Hummer packages you could add to their product line. I personally think GMC needs to take the Hx and build it as a GMC and give Jeep the Heartache they deserve.

 

1280px-Hummer_HX_Concept_-_Flickr_-_Alan_D_(1).jpg

Its a no-brainer. That's all I really have to say on trhat

THAT'S how they did it! I remember now... Although it would take a certain kind of guy to tell his missus he wears Hummer cologne

Hummer Cologne, give her some Hummer so she can return the favor........

I might be stupid, but it is a fact you are.  We know the problem with profits is overseas operations.  I have already corrected your incorrect info on the buybacks.  And if GM is still selling cars after recalling how many millions now?  i doubt this will hurt Ram sales.  Get off it and go hump GM some more.   

STOP THE PERSONAL ATTACKS FOLKS!   Remember everyone has a right to their opinion but lets keep it focused on the auto industry and NOT on name calling.

BACK on Subject, So FCA is admitting missing 5 recall deadlines.

http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/14909/20150606/fca-admits-to-missing-5-recent-recall-deadlines.htm

So it looks like RAM has 1 million trucks recalled now for Electrical and various other issues surrounding the electrical.

Dodge and Fiat have 350,000 recalls for loose motor mounts.

Jeep has 1.4 million for the Uconnect software hacking issue.

Clearly over 2 million affected NEW auto's for this model year and older.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/26/fca-2million-ram-airbag-recall/

Not a pretty way to try and sell yourself by failing to take care of the customer.

STOP THE PERSONAL ATTACKS FOLKS!   Remember everyone has a right to their opinion but lets keep it focused on the auto industry and NOT on name calling.

 

BACK on Subject, So FCA is admitting missing 5 recall deadlines.

 

http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/14909/20150606/fca-admits-to-missing-5-recent-recall-deadlines.htm

 

So it looks like RAM has 1 million trucks recalled now for Electrical and various other issues surrounding the electrical.

Dodge and Fiat have 350,000 recalls for loose motor mounts.

Jeep has 1.4 million for the Uconnect software hacking issue.

 

Clearly over 2 million affected NEW auto's for this model year and older.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/26/fca-2million-ram-airbag-recall/

 

Not a pretty way to try and sell yourself by failing to take care of the customer.

True, but let's be honest, apparently buyers don't care much about recalls.  Look at the even bigger GM ignition recall, hasn't even slowed them down and THAT was even worse because they about the defect for what 10 or 15 years?

True the GM Ignition recall has NOT slowed their sale of Auto's but then GM is also not trying to sell themselves or tie up with other car companies to survive.

This is my feeling about the wasted money FCA is putting into the alpha new product launch versus spending the money on fixing the issues and making sure the existing autolines are solid. Fiat is a perfect example of terrible built cars. Where is the focus on building a long term reliable auto?

GM Ignition I do not think is as bad as the 1.4 million auto's that can be hacked and controlled by someone at a computer. That is very bad.

Leaving aside the soul-destroying discussion of whether defective ignition cylinders or hacked cars is more disturbing, where exactly should Mopar's product development cash should be going at this point?

True the GM Ignition recall has NOT slowed their sale of Auto's but then GM is also not trying to sell themselves or tie up with other car companies to survive.

 

This is my feeling about the wasted money FCA is putting into the alpha new product launch versus spending the money on fixing the issues and making sure the existing autolines are solid. Fiat is a perfect example of terrible built cars. Where is the focus on building a long term reliable auto?

 

GM Ignition I do not think is as bad as the 1.4 million auto's that can be hacked and controlled by someone at a computer. That is very bad.

All perspective.  My guess is that if uconnect can be hacked, so can Onstar.   What are fiat's exact quality issues?  i know they are ranked low, but some specifics would be nice.  I do think the money should be spent perfecting bread and butter vehicles also, but at least Alpha has some potential for low volume and hih profit cars.  It also allows them to amortize costs of the new RWD platform to allow it to be used on future Dodges at reasonable prices.  IMHO, there is a bigger picture there.  

 

True the GM Ignition recall has NOT slowed their sale of Auto's but then GM is also not trying to sell themselves or tie up with other car companies to survive.

 

This is my feeling about the wasted money FCA is putting into the alpha new product launch versus spending the money on fixing the issues and making sure the existing autolines are solid. Fiat is a perfect example of terrible built cars. Where is the focus on building a long term reliable auto?

 

GM Ignition I do not think is as bad as the 1.4 million auto's that can be hacked and controlled by someone at a computer. That is very bad.

All perspective.  My guess is that if uconnect can be hacked, so can Onstar.   What are fiat's exact quality issues?  i know they are ranked low, but some specifics would be nice.  I do think the money should be spent perfecting bread and butter vehicles also, but at least Alpha has some potential for low volume and hih profit cars.  It also allows them to amortize costs of the new RWD platform to allow it to be used on future Dodges at reasonable prices.  IMHO, there is a bigger picture there.  

 

In regards to UConnect and OnStar, I agree I also feel the MySync of Ford can also be hancked. They need to spend the proper engineering dollars on QA testing of these systems to prevent just this type of thing from happening. Better yet, hire these hack groups that report these flaws to heavily test their system before releasing it to begin with.

Leaving aside the soul-destroying discussion of whether defective ignition cylinders or hacked cars is more disturbing, where exactly should Mopar's product development cash should be going at this point?

In regards to both of you, FCA is spending billions to try and bring back the Alpha name plate, Delaying new models for existing lines and trying to find a company to merge with.

As a CEO, I would leave ALPHA in the history books and spend those billions addressing the recall issues and updating and bringing to market the existing product lines. While not a fan of the FIAT line, in the US, they should at least expand that before trying to bring back ALPHA.

We all know that JEEP, DODGE, CHRYSLER and RAM could use tweaks to outright start from scratch updates for some products and just a proper refresh on others. This is where I would spend the billions they are trying to sink back into ALPHA.

If you leave Alfa Romeo alone, you have capped your segment growth. This is why Ford is having such a hard time going upmarket these days: once you lose it, it ain't easy to get back.

Alfa, if given the resources, will pay huge dividends in platform tech alone. It is the only logical step for them to take, unless you think that brand-specific reskins are a more pressing matter. The only thing that could possibly be more pressing is the next truck, but given how it's still able to hold its own with the competition today it's not a slam-dunk first priority.

Alfa isn't needed and is a waste. Focus on existing markets like Masseratti and CDJR models.

Focusing on Maserati instead of Alfa is like training for a marathon because you suck in the 100.

All you have to do is see what's happening with Cadillac right now to know that Alfa, AND THE PLATFORMS AND THE POWERTRAINS IT SPONS OFF, could be a huge boon for the company.

The actual penalty at the moment is $90 Million with an additional $15 Mil if they don't update their ways soon. The thing that everyone missed was 

 

 

 

FCA will also have to buy back more than 500,000 vehicles - mostly Ram trucks - due to defective suspension parts that could cause drivers to lose control.

 

 

That is a real penalty if it comes to fruition. 500,000 at a market value of $10K would be a cool $5 Billion, and another reason why every manufacturer on the planet sees Sergio's number come up on caller ID and hits the "End" button sending that $h! straight to VM

LMAO!

Not trying to get in the middle of the pissing match but FCA has a lot of issues to deal with and Sergio is not really much help here.

Even if they buy back 200,000 trucks and resell them they will not be for profit and if anything will only hurt new truck sales. If they are luck it will reduce the losses at best.

Sergio is taking what ever profits from Jeep and Ram and taking them elsewhere in the company. In his eyes Alfa is their savior and at this point he is not putting money back into Chrysler he real savior. Their programs have been delayed and we are put off. Chrysler is no longer considered by him as a Luxury brand and is more a main line volume brand. While Ford and GM as well as most Asian brands are upgrading to new platforms and new engines the Chrysler lines are just doing mild updates. Needed up dates but they really need new and more advanced platforms. They are doing with the LX what GM did with the W body. While not a total crash and burn it is also not the way to turn a company around fast.

Sergio in his own plan says they need to grow Alfa from 68K last year to 400K in 2018. There is no one in the industry outside Sergio that really believes this will happen.

If he wants volume you pump up Dodge and Chrysler with new products and take the money you are getting from Jeep and replace all the platforms ASAP with new modern product. You then work to make a 200 Dart and a model under the Dart to be segment competitive. You can not make it on reviews of well they are better than what they replaced and on leases at $199 on a 200.

Also the repeat buyers are hurting. as FCA has had the second lowest repeat buyers in the industry last year. Only Mitsubishi was worse.

Alfa and Maserati are additional income in a range of limited models and should be treated as such. Sergio wants Volume you to Dodge and Chrysler and do it there. They desperately need a wider range of smaller CUV models that are not only high volume but higher profits. Jeep is doing it but they are leaving money on the table at the other divisions.

I do not want to see Chrysler fail but I fear as long as Sergio is there they are in jeopardy. He has no real love for them and will only bleed them dry for his own Euro operations that are limited as to how they will help him.

Chrysler was in much worst shape than most realize after the last two owners. they had so much less money than GM even had going in to the chapter 11. Also the previous Owners really did little to help advance the product along. They had things but were not given the go ahead to do them.

The fact is Alfa and the Hellcat alone will not save Chrysler. A world class 200 and a Line of CUV model competing for the lead in their segment would do it.

I worry that Ferrari will go higher volumes and it will damage their image much like Porsche did in the 80's with the higher volume models they did. Ferrari is a product that needs to remain limited and if people want it they should be made to wait for 2 years. They are more than profitable at these levels and the image and demand are what few companies could ever command. It really adds meaning to being a Ferrari owner. It is not a car for everyone even if you have the money.

The fact is Alfa and the Hellcat alone will not save Chrysler. A world class 200 and a Line of CUV model competing for the lead in their segment would do it.

 

Both of which they have:  case closed you just destroyed your own case......

http://blog.caranddriver.com/ownstard-enterprising-wiz-hacks-onstar-to-enable-remote-functions-gm-working-on-fix/

Onstar hacked and Chevy sends a fix.  

The fact is Alfa and the Hellcat alone will not save Chrysler. A world class 200 and a Line of CUV model competing for the lead in their segment would do it.

 

Both of which they have:  case closed you just destroyed your own case......

I will seek out the mushy middle here.

The 200 is succeeding brilliantly. It is the hit they needed it to be. Good.

The LX is getting by right now on Hellcat fever. It is a serious roll of the dice given the volatility of gas prices, but again... darned it it ain't working.

As someone who used to slap together W-bodies for a living, I can assure you all that if Mopar doesn't do anything else with the platform for another decade than I will admit that is the next W-body. I suspect this wil not be the case. Do t be so hyperbolic in your criticism.

If Sergio spreads out the Alfa platforms through the lineup the Cadillac effect should eventually take hold. It needs to be done, may as well get cracking on it now. If his preference for Yurp keeps him from spreading the love then they will fail, and deservedly so. But he loves cash more than he does Italy, so he'll do the right thing, perhaps in spite of himself.

Ferrari has done its duty for him-it has given him cash from it's IPO.

They need a Dodge/Chrysler spun off the 500 platform.

...and that's about it, I guess.

Well, on the plus note, with the huge percentage of vehicles getting bought back….one does not have to worry so much about resale value.

Are you sure? Last I looked you couldn't even count right.

The fact is Alfa and the Hellcat alone will not save Chrysler. A world class 200 and a Line of CUV model competing for the lead in their segment would do it.

Both of which they have: case closed you just destroyed your own case......

Hellcat has sold well but is only a drop in a very large bucket.

Alfa has a long and challenging road to follow. It will never see 400,000 units by 2018.

The 200 is selling well but not at the profits it needs

The Dart is my drive this week. With some work it may measure up to a old Cruze. Such wind noise for a new car.

Eh, whatever.

 

 

The fact is Alfa and the Hellcat alone will not save Chrysler. A world class 200 and a Line of CUV model competing for the lead in their segment would do it.

 

Both of which they have: case closed you just destroyed your own case......

Hellcat has sold well but is only a drop in a very large bucket.

Alfa has a long and challenging road to follow. It will never see 400,000 units by 2018.

The 200 is selling well but not at the profits it needs

The Dart is my drive this week. With some work it may measure up to a old Cruze. Such wind noise for a new car.

 

that is funny, i have been in a few Darts and all were very quiet................  IMHO, you just hate the company so you want to see them fail.  As such you will say anything that downplays them.  Dart has one of the best interiors in i's class.  Offers features most others in the class do not.  It isn't the quickest or best handling, neither of which really matter in this class.  

 

 

 

The fact is Alfa and the Hellcat alone will not save Chrysler. A world class 200 and a Line of CUV model competing for the lead in their segment would do it.

 

Both of which they have: case closed you just destroyed your own case......

Hellcat has sold well but is only a drop in a very large bucket.

Alfa has a long and challenging road to follow. It will never see 400,000 units by 2018.

The 200 is selling well but not at the profits it needs

The Dart is my drive this week. With some work it may measure up to a old Cruze. Such wind noise for a new car.

 

that is funny, i have been in a few Darts and all were very quiet................  IMHO, you just hate the company so you want to see them fail.  As such you will say anything that downplays them.  Dart has one of the best interiors in i's class.  Offers features most others in the class do not.  It isn't the quickest or best handling, neither of which really matter in this class.  

 

While I personally like the Dart's looks the buyer isn't buying them compared to all of the stiff competition. It may be a good car but it isn't class leading in anything and it wasn't when it came out, that was a big mistake. For them to bring a brand new car to the market and not really do anything great in its class made it a flop. The magazines weren't buying it from the first reviews. MotorTrend had it 3rd out of 5 in a comparison, C/D had it lose to the Focus.. Right out of the box as a brand new car it wasn't anything specail, for its class. And it sells like that. It sells 9th out of 15 compact cars. Or 9th out of 13 if you get rid of the Buick Verano and Acura ILX as they are definitely above the rest of the compact crowd when it comes to pricing. Just under 55k sold YTD compared to the leaders at 220k Corola, 189K Civic, 150k Elantra, 149k Cruze, and 134k Focus.  

You may like it and I may like it. But the general population isn't a huge fan of it.

I have to disagree on a few points.  When it came out it was the most tech laden car in it's class, offers a large\ interior, an excellent ride, and even had a model jumping over 40 MPG on the Hwy.  It is a good car for it's class and certainly a better car than the top selling Corolla.  I can think of 3 issues.  1.  he Neon/Caliber stigma  2.  No real marketing  3.  while the 1.4T was fine in the smaller 500, it was overburdened here and have a less than great powerband, the 2.4 becoming available certainly helped here.  I personally would not buy anything in this class as they have all became way too expensive.  A compact car should never even be able to top 30k (not counting hipo editions of course).  And call me crazy, bu when you can get an AWD crossover for the same price, most going to choose that and those Jeep dealers with the Dodge dealers offer you 4 fine choices (Patriot, Compass, Renegade, and Cherokee). 

I have to disagree on a few points.  When it came out it was the most tech laden car in it's class, offers a large\ interior, an excellent ride, and even had a model jumping over 40 MPG on the Hwy.  It is a good car for it's class and certainly a better car than the top selling Corolla.  I can think of 3 issues.  1.  he Neon/Caliber stigma  2.  No real marketing  3.  while the 1.4T was fine in the smaller 500, it was overburdened here and have a less than great powerband, the 2.4 becoming available certainly helped here.  I personally would not buy anything in this class as they have all became way too expensive.  A compact car should never even be able to top 30k (not counting hipo editions of course).  And call me crazy, bu when you can get an AWD crossover for the same price, most going to choose that and those Jeep dealers with the Dodge dealers offer you 4 fine choices (Patriot, Compass, Renegade, and Cherokee). 

Well, the tech it had still wasn't selling.. And "excellent ride" is just an opinion which(not factual) the buying public disagrees with. What exactly makes it better than the Corolla? I honestly do not know. But I doubt it is an overall better package than the Corolla just based on magazine comparisons where the Dart just isn't getting very high regards. Didn't the Dart have "EcoBoost" problems with not achieving close to its EPA numbers in testing as well?  As for having a lame 1.4T at launch.. well that is what people are getting at here that FCA in general has problems and launching a car(pre FCA, I know) with a lame engine is a major issue and should NEVER happen and now the transmission issues with the brand new Cherokee as well.

"Despite MultiAir II valvetrain magic, the 3293-pound Dart ranked last, both with EPA (26 combined) and Real MPG (27)"(2.4L engine at the 2014 Big Test of Compact cars. It did tie for second in the "features/amenities" category. And only one model year after being brand new it took 7th out of 7 in MT's Big Test of Compact cars. If you break down every car in this category there just isn't a really good reason to buy the Dart over anything else in its class in an objective manner.

Also, The highest "as tested" price was $25,600. As an example, the Dart they used was $25,125 and it was a GT(GT starts at $21,645 and the base price is $16,495).  And none of those are stripper models, pretty much loaded to the gills. The big brother SUVs to all of these start around 20-22k and move up to 35k.  I built a Dart Limited and clicked every box including sticker packages and it was $27,895. That's a pretty basic CUV..

 

I have to disagree on a few points.  When it came out it was the most tech laden car in it's class, offers a large\ interior, an excellent ride, and even had a model jumping over 40 MPG on the Hwy.  It is a good car for it's class and certainly a better car than the top selling Corolla.  I can think of 3 issues.  1.  he Neon/Caliber stigma  2.  No real marketing  3.  while the 1.4T was fine in the smaller 500, it was overburdened here and have a less than great powerband, the 2.4 becoming available certainly helped here.  I personally would not buy anything in this class as they have all became way too expensive.  A compact car should never even be able to top 30k (not counting hipo editions of course).  And call me crazy, bu when you can get an AWD crossover for the same price, most going to choose that and those Jeep dealers with the Dodge dealers offer you 4 fine choices (Patriot, Compass, Renegade, and Cherokee). 

Well, the tech it had still wasn't selling.. And "excellent ride" is just an opinion which(not factual) the buying public disagrees with. What exactly makes it better than the Corolla? I honestly do not know. But I doubt it is an overall better package than the Corolla just based on magazine comparisons where the Dart just isn't getting very high regards. Didn't the Dart have "EcoBoost" problems with not achieving close to its EPA numbers in testing as well?  As for having a lame 1.4T at launch.. well that is what people are getting at here that FCA in general has problems and launching a car(pre FCA, I know) with a lame engine is a major issue and should NEVER happen and now the transmission issues with the brand new Cherokee as well.

 

"Despite MultiAir II valvetrain magic, the 3293-pound Dart ranked last, both with EPA (26 combined) and Real MPG (27)"(2.4L engine at the 2014 Big Test of Compact cars. It did tie for second in the "features/amenities" category. And only one model year after being brand new it took 7th out of 7 in MT's Big Test of Compact cars. If you break down every car in this category there just isn't a really good reason to buy the Dart over anything else in its class in an objective manner.

 

Also, The highest "as tested" price was $25,600. As an example, the Dart they used was $25,125 and it was a GT(GT starts at $21,645 and the base price is $16,495).  And none of those are stripper models, pretty much loaded to the gills. The big brother SUVs to all of these start around 20-22k and move up to 35k.  I built a Dart Limited and clicked every box including sticker packages and it was $27,895. That's a pretty basic CUV..

 

The Dar had no problems achieving or even beating it's MPG claims.  the problem with the 1.4t was no torque and an uneven powerband.  Also, 2 problems with that test, one autowriters drive the piss out of cars and 2, a 9 speed auto only in the heavier 200 with the same exact engine gets considerably OVER it's ratings?  Makes no sense.......  Wait, GT as different more aggressive gearing than other 2.4 Darts and as such is only rated around 30 on the Highway..........  Those CUVs I mentioned, all come pretty loaded at that price. 

 

 

I have to disagree on a few points.  When it came out it was the most tech laden car in it's class, offers a large\ interior, an excellent ride, and even had a model jumping over 40 MPG on the Hwy.  It is a good car for it's class and certainly a better car than the top selling Corolla.  I can think of 3 issues.  1.  he Neon/Caliber stigma  2.  No real marketing  3.  while the 1.4T was fine in the smaller 500, it was overburdened here and have a less than great powerband, the 2.4 becoming available certainly helped here.  I personally would not buy anything in this class as they have all became way too expensive.  A compact car should never even be able to top 30k (not counting hipo editions of course).  And call me crazy, bu when you can get an AWD crossover for the same price, most going to choose that and those Jeep dealers with the Dodge dealers offer you 4 fine choices (Patriot, Compass, Renegade, and Cherokee). 

Well, the tech it had still wasn't selling.. And "excellent ride" is just an opinion which(not factual) the buying public disagrees with. What exactly makes it better than the Corolla? I honestly do not know. But I doubt it is an overall better package than the Corolla just based on magazine comparisons where the Dart just isn't getting very high regards. Didn't the Dart have "EcoBoost" problems with not achieving close to its EPA numbers in testing as well?  As for having a lame 1.4T at launch.. well that is what people are getting at here that FCA in general has problems and launching a car(pre FCA, I know) with a lame engine is a major issue and should NEVER happen and now the transmission issues with the brand new Cherokee as well.

 

"Despite MultiAir II valvetrain magic, the 3293-pound Dart ranked last, both with EPA (26 combined) and Real MPG (27)"(2.4L engine at the 2014 Big Test of Compact cars. It did tie for second in the "features/amenities" category. And only one model year after being brand new it took 7th out of 7 in MT's Big Test of Compact cars. If you break down every car in this category there just isn't a really good reason to buy the Dart over anything else in its class in an objective manner.

 

Also, The highest "as tested" price was $25,600. As an example, the Dart they used was $25,125 and it was a GT(GT starts at $21,645 and the base price is $16,495).  And none of those are stripper models, pretty much loaded to the gills. The big brother SUVs to all of these start around 20-22k and move up to 35k.  I built a Dart Limited and clicked every box including sticker packages and it was $27,895. That's a pretty basic CUV..

 

The Dar had no problems achieving or even beating it's MPG claims.  the problem with the 1.4t was no torque and an uneven powerband.  Also, 2 problems with that test, one autowriters drive the piss out of cars and 2, a 9 speed auto only in the heavier 200 with the same exact engine gets considerably OVER it's ratings?  Makes no sense.......  Wait, GT as different more aggressive gearing than other 2.4 Darts and as such is only rated around 30 on the Highway..........  Those CUVs I mentioned, all come pretty loaded at that price. 

 

Well, like I said, They decided to use the 1.4t having no tq and an uneven powerband.. Yes, auto journalists do run the piss out of the cars but they run the piss out of ALL of them, not just the Dart. And for having the most powerful engine it wasn't the quickest in any test either, all while achieving the worst mileage(both rating and their test). Like I said, It's just mid pack in almost every category and it sells like that. Nothing on Dodge's website says anything about the GT's gearing being different from the rest of the Dart lineup. It was rated the lowest of the group(mpg), which is a fail on their part. There shouldn't be any "compact" car in 2015 rated at only 31mpg highway that only makes 184hp. The Focus ST at 252hp/270tq is rated at 32highway/23city. The Golf GTI is 210hp and gets 34hwy/25city.

What CUV is "pretty loaded" at less than 28k? And we're talking the stable mates to these which would be CX-5, Escape, CR-V, Tiguan, etc.

 

 

 

I have to disagree on a few points.  When it came out it was the most tech laden car in it's class, offers a large\ interior, an excellent ride, and even had a model jumping over 40 MPG on the Hwy.  It is a good car for it's class and certainly a better car than the top selling Corolla.  I can think of 3 issues.  1.  he Neon/Caliber stigma  2.  No real marketing  3.  while the 1.4T was fine in the smaller 500, it was overburdened here and have a less than great powerband, the 2.4 becoming available certainly helped here.  I personally would not buy anything in this class as they have all became way too expensive.  A compact car should never even be able to top 30k (not counting hipo editions of course).  And call me crazy, bu when you can get an AWD crossover for the same price, most going to choose that and those Jeep dealers with the Dodge dealers offer you 4 fine choices (Patriot, Compass, Renegade, and Cherokee). 

Well, the tech it had still wasn't selling.. And "excellent ride" is just an opinion which(not factual) the buying public disagrees with. What exactly makes it better than the Corolla? I honestly do not know. But I doubt it is an overall better package than the Corolla just based on magazine comparisons where the Dart just isn't getting very high regards. Didn't the Dart have "EcoBoost" problems with not achieving close to its EPA numbers in testing as well?  As for having a lame 1.4T at launch.. well that is what people are getting at here that FCA in general has problems and launching a car(pre FCA, I know) with a lame engine is a major issue and should NEVER happen and now the transmission issues with the brand new Cherokee as well.

 

"Despite MultiAir II valvetrain magic, the 3293-pound Dart ranked last, both with EPA (26 combined) and Real MPG (27)"(2.4L engine at the 2014 Big Test of Compact cars. It did tie for second in the "features/amenities" category. And only one model year after being brand new it took 7th out of 7 in MT's Big Test of Compact cars. If you break down every car in this category there just isn't a really good reason to buy the Dart over anything else in its class in an objective manner.

 

Also, The highest "as tested" price was $25,600. As an example, the Dart they used was $25,125 and it was a GT(GT starts at $21,645 and the base price is $16,495).  And none of those are stripper models, pretty much loaded to the gills. The big brother SUVs to all of these start around 20-22k and move up to 35k.  I built a Dart Limited and clicked every box including sticker packages and it was $27,895. That's a pretty basic CUV..

 

The Dar had no problems achieving or even beating it's MPG claims.  the problem with the 1.4t was no torque and an uneven powerband.  Also, 2 problems with that test, one autowriters drive the piss out of cars and 2, a 9 speed auto only in the heavier 200 with the same exact engine gets considerably OVER it's ratings?  Makes no sense.......  Wait, GT as different more aggressive gearing than other 2.4 Darts and as such is only rated around 30 on the Highway..........  Those CUVs I mentioned, all come pretty loaded at that price. 

 

Well, like I said, They decided to use the 1.4t having no tq and an uneven powerband.. Yes, auto journalists do run the piss out of the cars but they run the piss out of ALL of them, not just the Dart. And for having the most powerful engine it wasn't the quickest in any test either, all while achieving the worst mileage(both rating and their test). Like I said, It's just mid pack in almost every category and it sells like that. Nothing on Dodge's website says anything about the GT's gearing being different from the rest of the Dart lineup. It was rated the lowest of the group(mpg), which is a fail on their part. There shouldn't be any "compact" car in 2015 rated at only 31mpg highway that only makes 184hp. The Focus ST at 252hp/270tq is rated at 32highway/23city. The Golf GTI is 210hp and gets 34hwy/25city.

 

What CUV is "pretty loaded" at less than 28k? And we're talking the stable mates to these which would be CX-5, Escape, CR-V, Tiguan, etc.

 

look into it.  You will see that non GTs are rated considerably higher, up o 36 MPG I believe, in the non GT models.  And i also already said acceleration was not the quickest and handling not the best.  Speed does not matter much.  And the stablemates i was talking about were the Jeeps to the Dart.  you get a decently loaded Patriot, Compass, or Renegade for mid/high 20k range.  Look at Patriot sales.  It is almost ridiculous that it still sells as well as it does and the while the Dart sells were growing (which had a goal of only 10k a month BTW), the new Renegade sales appear to be eating into Dart sales.  Oh, Show me a Focus ST that get's it's MPG and the GTi runs VW's excellent DSG to help achieve those MPG. 

 

 

 

 

I have to disagree on a few points.  When it came out it was the most tech laden car in it's class, offers a large\ interior, an excellent ride, and even had a model jumping over 40 MPG on the Hwy.  It is a good car for it's class and certainly a better car than the top selling Corolla.  I can think of 3 issues.  1.  he Neon/Caliber stigma  2.  No real marketing  3.  while the 1.4T was fine in the smaller 500, it was overburdened here and have a less than great powerband, the 2.4 becoming available certainly helped here.  I personally would not buy anything in this class as they have all became way too expensive.  A compact car should never even be able to top 30k (not counting hipo editions of course).  And call me crazy, bu when you can get an AWD crossover for the same price, most going to choose that and those Jeep dealers with the Dodge dealers offer you 4 fine choices (Patriot, Compass, Renegade, and Cherokee). 

Well, the tech it had still wasn't selling.. And "excellent ride" is just an opinion which(not factual) the buying public disagrees with. What exactly makes it better than the Corolla? I honestly do not know. But I doubt it is an overall better package than the Corolla just based on magazine comparisons where the Dart just isn't getting very high regards. Didn't the Dart have "EcoBoost" problems with not achieving close to its EPA numbers in testing as well?  As for having a lame 1.4T at launch.. well that is what people are getting at here that FCA in general has problems and launching a car(pre FCA, I know) with a lame engine is a major issue and should NEVER happen and now the transmission issues with the brand new Cherokee as well.

 

"Despite MultiAir II valvetrain magic, the 3293-pound Dart ranked last, both with EPA (26 combined) and Real MPG (27)"(2.4L engine at the 2014 Big Test of Compact cars. It did tie for second in the "features/amenities" category. And only one model year after being brand new it took 7th out of 7 in MT's Big Test of Compact cars. If you break down every car in this category there just isn't a really good reason to buy the Dart over anything else in its class in an objective manner.

 

Also, The highest "as tested" price was $25,600. As an example, the Dart they used was $25,125 and it was a GT(GT starts at $21,645 and the base price is $16,495).  And none of those are stripper models, pretty much loaded to the gills. The big brother SUVs to all of these start around 20-22k and move up to 35k.  I built a Dart Limited and clicked every box including sticker packages and it was $27,895. That's a pretty basic CUV..

 

The Dar had no problems achieving or even beating it's MPG claims.  the problem with the 1.4t was no torque and an uneven powerband.  Also, 2 problems with that test, one autowriters drive the piss out of cars and 2, a 9 speed auto only in the heavier 200 with the same exact engine gets considerably OVER it's ratings?  Makes no sense.......  Wait, GT as different more aggressive gearing than other 2.4 Darts and as such is only rated around 30 on the Highway..........  Those CUVs I mentioned, all come pretty loaded at that price. 

 

Well, like I said, They decided to use the 1.4t having no tq and an uneven powerband.. Yes, auto journalists do run the piss out of the cars but they run the piss out of ALL of them, not just the Dart. And for having the most powerful engine it wasn't the quickest in any test either, all while achieving the worst mileage(both rating and their test). Like I said, It's just mid pack in almost every category and it sells like that. Nothing on Dodge's website says anything about the GT's gearing being different from the rest of the Dart lineup. It was rated the lowest of the group(mpg), which is a fail on their part. There shouldn't be any "compact" car in 2015 rated at only 31mpg highway that only makes 184hp. The Focus ST at 252hp/270tq is rated at 32highway/23city. The Golf GTI is 210hp and gets 34hwy/25city.

 

What CUV is "pretty loaded" at less than 28k? And we're talking the stable mates to these which would be CX-5, Escape, CR-V, Tiguan, etc.

 

look into it.  You will see that non GTs are rated considerably higher, up o 36 MPG I believe, in the non GT models.  And i also already said acceleration was not the quickest and handling not the best.  Speed does not matter much.  And the stablemates i was talking about were the Jeeps to the Dart.  you get a decently loaded Patriot, Compass, or Renegade for mid/high 20k range.  Look at Patriot sales.  It is almost ridiculous that it still sells as well as it does and the while the Dart sells were growing (which had a goal of only 10k a month BTW), the new Renegade sales appear to be eating into Dart sales.  Oh, Show me a Focus ST that get's it's MPG and the GTi runs VW's excellent DSG to help achieve those MPG. 

 

Well where do I look into it at? It isn't on their own website..

You and I both know the Patriot and Compass are jokes at this point.. They offer nothing but the Jeep logo on the hood. The Renegade is a class smaller than the Dart would be. The Renegade is smaller than the Escape, CR-V, CX-5. It is CX-3 and HR-V territory.

Well 10k a month would be 120k a year and at this rate they will fall well short of that. And why would 10k a month be a goal? Why such a low goal? As of June it was on pace for just under 100k a year.

The C/D long term Focus St got 26mpg in their hands over 40k miles(journalists' hands..(rated 23/32) . So it realistically achieved its ratings. And you're excusing the GTI on getting its mileage because of its great transmission..that isn't their fault Dodge didn't try hard enough on their own. THAT'S MY POINT. It is just a mid pack car and nothing more. The GTI had a great trans because they spend the time and money on that great trans. Dodge didn't with the Dart.

Stew let's make this clear as your opinion may be humble but terriblied flawed.

#1 I do not hate Chysler as we have already lost too many American branded cars.

I do believe Fiat and Sergio are doing the Chysler cars more harm than good.

When a company comes out with a new model like this it shoul be in the top few cars in class not mid pack or down. This is a time where a company needs to shine not just be better than their previous last place model.

The Dart I am driving does ride well and handles ok. Nothing bad but nothing that makes it stand out.

The engine power is ok but buzzy.

Interior is between a Cobalt and old Cruze. Better than a Neon but that says little.

For sure it is the best small Chrysler of all time but it is still not as good as most of the cars in segment.

Yes the wind noise on the side mirrors is horrible.

What I say here is constructive criticism not hate. Too many like you out of blind love do not always see things with out rose color glasses.

I today would be worried if GM had not had a new Cruze on the way. This is a tough segment and just good is no longer good enough.

Same on the 200 as it is too new to live on 199 a month leases. That is a troubling sign.

I feel that if Sergio was out and some one else Incharge putting Chrysler first thing would be much different.

^ that's what I'm trying to say(most of that at least. I do not know any real financials..)

Honestly, I like the Dart. I would consider it if I was in this market. But that's in part because I will give the D3 a good chance and opportunity before going overseas. But that doesn't mean that it is truly in the top of its class or ever has been. I was disappointed when it came out and read the reviews on it. Nobody fell in love with it like I had hoped. It came out mid pack.. And in this segment it is probably the most competitive segment out there as almost everybody has something in this class. I mean I listed sales and there were 15 cars if you include the ILX and Verano. Take them out and it's still 13 cars to compete with. I don't know any other segment that has that many competitors. So to stand out is tough.

Actually the Patriot and Compass are pretty nice.  My old 07 Patriot was completely reliable and would regularly get over 30 MG.  There have been nearly yearly updates to the Patriot and Compass to keep them fresh, with the most importan, IMHO, being the adaptation of the 6 speeed automatic for 14.  The off-road models are also at least as off-road worthy as the Renegade Trailhawk.  like it it combines a low range gear, MORE ground clearance, and stronger BLDs that make the Patriot and Compass equipped with the FD2 extremely capable offroad.  not to mention the same 19 inches of water fording capability, etc, etc, etc.  Know about the vehicle before you dismiss it. 

As for the GTi's DSG, my point is it is one of the best out there.  And Ford is still using 6 speed autos so nysaying the Darts 6 speed transmissions is redundant.  At least they have the excellent ZF 8 speed that is one of the best conventional autos out there bar none and actually used by VW in their Audi brand. 

10k was the goal as they knew they had a long way to go.  There are a lot of cars that sell in as low or lower volumes than the Dart hat are also fine cars.  Speaking of the GTi, the entire Golf line, 3 and 5 dor hatch, 2 turbo motors, diesel, etc, didn't even sell 1000 more units than the Dart last month. Let's say the Sonic and Fiesta suck too then, yes they are smaller, but they both sold LESS than the dart last month and 1/2 of wha the class leader the Versa sold.  Sales aren't everything, if hey are you are saying the Camry, Corolla, and CR-V are the best vehicles in their class?  Yeah, right...........

Also, the Dart is going on it's 4th model year, think about that..............

Actually the Patriot and Compass are pretty nice.  My old 07 Patriot was completely reliable and would regularly get over 30 MG.  There have been nearly yearly updates to the Patriot and Compass to keep them fresh, with the most importan, IMHO, being the adaptation of the 6 speeed automatic for 14.  The off-road models are also at least as off-road worthy as the Renegade Trailhawk.  like it it combines a low range gear, MORE ground clearance, and stronger BLDs that make the Patriot and Compass equipped with the FD2 extremely capable offroad.  not to mention the same 19 inches of water fording capability, etc, etc, etc.  Know about the vehicle before you dismiss it. 

 

As for the GTi's DSG, my point is it is one of the best out there.  And Ford is still using 6 speed autos so nysaying the Darts 6 speed transmissions is redundant.  At least they have the excellent ZF 8 speed that is one of the best conventional autos out there bar none and actually used by VW in their Audi brand. 

 

10k was the goal as they knew they had a long way to go.  There are a lot of cars that sell in as low or lower volumes than the Dart hat are also fine cars.  Speaking of the GTi, the entire Golf line, 3 and 5 dor hatch, 2 turbo motors, diesel, etc, didn't even sell 1000 more units than the Dart last month. Let's say the Sonic and Fiesta suck too then, yes they are smaller, but they both sold LESS than the dart last month and 1/2 of wha the class leader the Versa sold.  Sales aren't everything, if hey are you are saying the Camry, Corolla, and CR-V are the best vehicles in their class?  Yeah, right...........

Also, the Dart is going on it's 4th model year, think about that..............

You are just all over the place with that post..

First, The Compass and Patriot may be fine vehicles but they are also of the cheapest, plasticy-est vehicles left on the road today. Part of that is that your 07 Patriot and todays '15 Patriot are basically the same thing. 8 years isn't winning people over. I will coninue to dismiss those two are they just aren't good vehicles in the 2015 market. The standard has gone way up in the past 5 or so years and these haven't been realy updated in that time frame.

The DSG is one of the best out there. Because they didn't half ass their car.. They built an award winning car. Dodge did not. I don't recall dissing the Dodge trans other than comparing it to the DSG which you praised. I realise Ford is still using 6spds. And the ST(252hp/270tq) still achieves better mileage than a Dart GT at 184hp/174tq. I realize there is a decent price difference but it still is just a better engine/drivetrain setup. Does the Dart currently have the ZF 8spd? If so, great for them! That's something they need.

See this is why I said your post was all over the place.. You're comparing the Dart to the Golf(which VW also has the Jetta classified as a "compact" car as well). So VW has both the Golf and Jetta in the compact car segment. The Sonic and Fiesta aren't even in the same category as the Dart or previously mentioned Golf. You're comparing out of class cars. The CR-V has won awards. I believe just last year it was the SUV of the year by MT. No sales aren't everything, That's been discussed countless times but sales in the smaller less emotional segments are usually a very good indication of a better overall vehicle whether it be packaging or what you get per $ spent.

It came out as a 2013 model year. What is there to think about? It came out mediocre.. Is it coming out with a refresh next year?

I am bouncy this morning LOL.  And no, the current iterations of the Compass and Patriot are FAR from plasticy and cheap feeling.  My 07?  the interior was plastic fantastic, but now he interior is completely different and all touch points are now soft touch materials, the seats have been updated and upraded, the only caveat with the interior is that it is still using the smaller touch screen and older version of uconnect, then so is the Wrangler.  There is a reason a lot of people replace their patriots with Patriots and a number of families have more than one.  Do you know you can even get a lift kit for the Patriot and Compass?  Apparently this isn't possible with the Renegade and cherokee because of their suspension design.  in the realm of Jeeps, that is very bad indeed.  Of course i don't want any of these or a dart, i want a Wrangler Rubicon or Willys Wheeler.

I am bouncy this morning LOL.  And no, the current iterations of the Compass and Patriot are FAR from plasticy and cheap feeling.  My 07?  the interior was plastic fantastic, but now he interior is completely different and all touch points are now soft touch materials, the seats have been updated and upraded, the only caveat with the interior is that it is still using the smaller touch screen and older version of uconnect, then so is the Wrangler.  There is a reason a lot of people replace their patriots with Patriots and a number of families have more than one.  Do you know you can even get a lift kit for the Patriot and Compass?  Apparently this isn't possible with the Renegade and cherokee because of their suspension design.  in the realm of Jeeps, that is very bad indeed.  Of course i don't want any of these or a dart, i want a Wrangler Rubicon or Willys Wheeler.

 

Alright I can get on board with them redoing the interiors.. I just haven't heard anything from any comparison in a handful of years which leads me to believe they still are the same basic Compass and Patriot of 8ish years ago..

The Wrangler is its own thing. Whatever they keep doing or lack of doing is working. I don't rag that at all. They have a gold mind and they're doing exactly what the people want. That is awesome that there are lift kits for them..but that in and of itself says they are dated..

That pic is about exactly what one of my best friends wants. Simple, 2 door, black wheels.. He wants his to be a manual. And he says he will just drive everywhere with the doors off. lol

 

I am bouncy this morning LOL.  And no, the current iterations of the Compass and Patriot are FAR from plasticy and cheap feeling.  My 07?  the interior was plastic fantastic, but now he interior is completely different and all touch points are now soft touch materials, the seats have been updated and upraded, the only caveat with the interior is that it is still using the smaller touch screen and older version of uconnect, then so is the Wrangler.  There is a reason a lot of people replace their patriots with Patriots and a number of families have more than one.  Do you know you can even get a lift kit for the Patriot and Compass?  Apparently this isn't possible with the Renegade and cherokee because of their suspension design.  in the realm of Jeeps, that is very bad indeed.  Of course i don't want any of these or a dart, i want a Wrangler Rubicon or Willys Wheeler.

 

Alright I can get on board with them redoing the interiors.. I just haven't heard anything from any comparison in a handful of years which leads me to believe they still are the same basic Compass and Patriot of 8ish years ago..

 

The Wrangler is its own thing. Whatever they keep doing or lack of doing is working. I don't rag that at all. They have a gold mind and they're doing exactly what the people want. That is awesome that there are lift kits for them..but that in and of itself says they are dated..

 

That pic is about exactly what one of my best friends wants. Simple, 2 door, black wheels.. He wants his to be a manual. And he says he will just drive everywhere with the doors off. lol

 

Outdated kind of works for Jeep lol.  Jeep is hard lol.  How do you keep the faithful happy while bringing in new customers?    That is exactly what i would want right there.  Basic, fun, 2 door.  I would love the Rubicon with it's dual lockers and electric disconnecting swaybars, but I think the Willys with it's limited slip rear would be just fine for me. 

Do you know the difference in the Willy's Wheeler and the Willy's Wheeler W ?

That looks freakin' sweet! I LOVE the red interior to top it off!

Seems mostly like options, but I will find out, give me a few because I am curious.

OK, the W has standard AC and the option of a power group (windows, heated mirrors, etc) that aren't available on the regular Willys 

Also, if just get the willys with ac, it is $900 less than the W, that is the only difference and you are paying an extra 900 for nothing.  Only get the W if you want power options, if ou just want AC, stick to the regular Willys.

Hmm interesting.. Thanks for looking that up!

I think my friend who really wants one would just get the AC. He'd be content with a raw and stripped down Wrangler. He's always wanted one but they hold their value so damn well he didn't want one with a bajillion miles for a good price or couldn't afford one with a reasonable amount of miles on it.

I would like the power windows and locks, but could easily live without them.  I think my only options would be the AC, limited slip, 3.73 gears, and the 5 speed auto since I would be driving it everyday.  Oh, and the premium sunrider sunroof with the fold back sunroof and it is thicker and more weather tight, easily worth the extra 500 imo.  In Anvil of course (reason i chose Anvil or the Willy's and Rubicon pics above haha).  And used prices are insane on either o the last 2 gens of Wranglers.  an 06 TJ Rubicon with low miles can still set you back 20k or more!

Hmmm, if it ever happens, maybe I should consider Flame red to match the Dakota...

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Something they should have put into production ears ago!

That is epic. If they made that it would just tear up the market. Just call it a J-10 and watch it fly off the lots.

That is epic. If they made that it would just tear up the market. Just call it a J-10 and watch it fly off the lots.

100% agreed.  i don't see anyway it could not be a hit!

I would like the power windows and locks, but could easily live without them.  I think my only options would be the AC, limited slip, 3.73 gears, and the 5 speed auto since I would be driving it everyday.  Oh, and the premium sunrider sunroof with the fold back sunroof and it is thicker and more weather tight, easily worth the extra 500 imo.  In Anvil of course (reason i chose Anvil or the Willy's and Rubicon pics above haha).  And used prices are insane on either o the last 2 gens of Wranglers.  an 06 TJ Rubicon with low miles can still set you back 20k or more!

This is one vehicle(and probably THE ONLY one) that I would be totally fine with crank windows and manual locks.. I think it adds to the Wrangler-ness.

Hmmm, if it ever happens, maybe I should consider Flame red to match the Dakota...

 

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I think it'd be sweet to have matching colored vehicles! I'm stupid like that though lol.

Something they should have put into production ears ago!

 

100% agree. Especially because Jeep and Ram are under the same roof.. That looks gnarly for a truck.