Spying: Mid-Engine Chevrolet Corvette Shows Off A Little More

I'd love to see a Nurburgring time or any race track time, of a Yukon or even Escalade, and inner on the same track a 328i would embarrass it.  This isn't even close.

I have driven a 2013 Mercedes GL450 with airmatic, has very smooth ride, handles well for its size, and I imagine since it is developed on the Nurburgring it can out handle a Yukon any day of the week.  Yet the GL is no where near my car in the corners and I think a 3-series would out handle my car on a windy road.

A 5500 lb SUV is not going to handle as well as a 3-series, or even an 7-series for that matter.

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I'd love to see a Nurburgring time or any race track time, of a Yukon or even Escalade, and inner on the same track a 328i would embarrass it.  This isn't even close.

I have driven a 2013 Mercedes GL450 with airmatic, has very smooth ride, handles well for its size, and I imagine since it is developed on the Nurburgring it can out handle a Yukon any day of the week.  Yet the GL is no where near my car in the corners and I think a 3-series would out handle my car on a windy road.

A 5500 lb SUV is not going to handle as well as a 3-series, or even an 7-series for that matter.

First of all I said it could handle its own.. obviously the center of gravity for a vehicle that is 74.4 inches vs one that is 56.3.. almost 2 ft higher in the front alone.. would hinder the vehicle somewhat.. and U are an IDIOT for bringing up the RING in this conversation.. GOD DAMN IDIOT... 

BTW.. 27.4 sec @ 0.68 g (avg)  Denali/Escalade as per MT vs 26.7 sec @ 0.65 g (avg) for comparable 328d XDrive. Looks pretty close to me.. 

Even a Bentayga or GLS63 will lose a handling battle to a 3-series.   No full size SUV can keep up with a 3-series in corners.  When the 3-series has mostly been the standard for best handling sedan the past 30 years.

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Even a Bentayga or GLS63 will lose a handling battle to a 3-series.   No full size SUV can keep up with a 3-series in corners.  When the 3-series has mostly been the standard for best handling sedan the past 30 years.

Did you actually read his last post? 

Good grief. 

I thought I read that 3-series gave it's handling/driving crown up to the ATS?

33 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I thought I read that 3-series gave it's handling/driving crown up to the ATS?

Shhhhh! We don't talk about that.

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Did you actually read his last post? 

 

Good grief. 

Yes he posted how the Yukon is slower on a figure 8 than a Diesel 3-series.  So clearly a 335i as he originally said would easily outrun it in the twisties.

29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Yes he posted how the Yukon is slower on a figure 8 than a Diesel 3-series.  So clearly a 335i as he originally said would easily outrun it in the twisties.

Actually he never said the Yukon would beat it. He only said that it would "hold its own" which is a subjective measure. 

23 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Actually he never said the Yukon would beat it. He only said that it would "hold its own" which is a subjective measure. 

I know he said hold its own, but it wouldn't even do that.  A 335i/340i would blow away a Yukon on curvy road, race track, twisty street, etc

29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I know he said hold its own, but it wouldn't even do that.  A 335i/340i would blow away a Yukon on curvy road, race track, twisty street, etc

Don't care. You're just looking for an excuse to make a mountain out of a molehill. 

what about a modded Yukon? Suspension upgrades are plentiful and relatively easy.
You can buy a turn-key circa 1000 HP Tahoe from a few tuners, not sure what they offer suspension0wise but wouldn't be surprised if it was an upgrade there.

I've seen a few videos of the Ram SRT-10 running a road course- it was very well planted and consistent, and it sure looked like it was moving at a sport sedan pace.

No time or speed (and WTH is that music?) :

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

I thought I read that 3-series gave it's handling/driving crown up to the ATS?

It did, 2014 many mags said the ATS beat the BMW even the web site BMWBLOG says ATS beats BMW 328i.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/10/10/test-drive-cadillac-ats-2-0t-vs-bmw-328i

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I know he said hold its own, but it wouldn't even do that.  A 335i/340i would blow away a Yukon on curvy road, race track, twisty street, etc

I put my GMC Suburban SLE up against and will beat the 335i/340i.

Heck guess I do not need to put up my custom 1994 Suburban that does beat BMW 3 series products as I forgot about Chevy offering RST Editions of Tahoe & Suburbans. These rock.

RST will be available on Tahoe and Suburban models in the fall of 2017. Inspired by aftermarket trends, virtually all chrome trim has been eliminated for a street performance appearance. Changes include body-color grille surround and door handles; gloss-black grille and mirror caps; black roof rails, window trim, badging and Chevy bowties. RST also includes exclusive 22-inch wheels wrapped in Bridgestone P285/45R 22 tires.

Available upgrades for Tahoe and Suburban RST include a Borla performance exhaust system that offers a 28 percent improvement in exhaust flow, for a 7-10-horsepower gain at the rear wheels. An available brake package features massive front red Brembo six-piston, fixed aluminum calipers with brake pads clamping on larger-than-stock 410 x 32mm (16.1 inch x 1.3 inch) Duralife rotors coupled with a 84 percent increase in brake pad area and a 42 percent increase in rotor area to increase system thermal capacity. Duralife™ rotors feature a hardened surface to reduce corrosion and provide quieter braking with less vibration.

The Tahoe RST will also be offered with an exclusive Performance Package that includes Magnetic Ride Control with performance calibration, 6.2L V-8 and the new 10L80 10-speed automatic transmission.

This is the first time Tahoe will offer the 6.2L V-8, which delivers an estimated 420 horsepower and 460 lb-ft of torque. The engine features three state-of-the-art technologies — direct injection, Active Fuel Management and continuously variable valve timing — to make the most of power, torque and efficiency across a broad range of operating conditions.

The 6.2L V-8 will be paired with an all-new 10-speed automatic transmission. With smaller steps between each ratio, the transmission maximizes engine power under acceleration. With a wide 7.39 overall gear ratio spread and lower numerical top gear ratio, the transmission also improves efficiency by reducing engine revolutions at highway speeds.

27 minutes ago, dfelt said:

It did, 2014 many mags said the ATS beat the BMW even the web site BMWBLOG says ATS beats BMW 328i.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/10/10/test-drive-cadillac-ats-2-0t-vs-bmw-328i

I put my GMC Suburban SLE up against and will beat the 335i/340i.

That's a bold statement. 

11 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

That's a bold statement. 

True, but then I have done many customizations from the suspension that is tight and has zero body roll in clover leave on and off ramps at 80+mph to the 350 V8 I bored out to 402 and now produces 505 hp, 551ft-lbs. 425 posi lock diff, custom 4 speed tranny. 

My 1994 Suburban will hold it's own against a BMW 3 series car. Put it and a number of other german brand cars to shame plus their SUV's.

This was before I had done more than replace the coils and leaf springs. But even then this held it's own.

Not that this is in any way instrumented...
but I've had pesky BMWs and other 'sport sedans' on my rear bumper, and I have a bit of lead in my foot.
But when sweeping turns come up, I get thru them easily; good grip, low-end 520 TRQ, 3.73 gears and 3/4-ton suspension. The truck never leans or plows, it just powers thru. The pests always fall back on the turns, speed up again on the straights, then fall off on the next turn. And my truck is about 6600 lbs.

This is all insane, but I found some lap times of a stock 335i (2012 E90 generation, since they are 340i's now).

On Sachsenring in Germany the 335i runs 1:44.3 or 1:45.0 seconds (it had 2 times, one might have been a coupe)  Here are the fastest SUVs on that track:

Bentley Bentayga 1:44.5   Cayenne Turbo S 1:44.7   AMG ML63 1:47.2

The 335i is with them all, and those are probably the 3 fastest SUVs on the planet.  I also found times on Virginia International raceway (pre 2014), and the 2012 335i ran a 3:13.2 lap.  The only SUV in the top 125 lap times was a Grand Cherokee SRT-8 at 3:17.4

That is a generation old 3-series going as fast as a Bentley Bentayga, the fastest SUV there is, and think of how much faster the 335i must be in the corners since it has literally half the horsepower and torque.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

This is all insane, but I found some lap times of a stock 335i (2012 E90 generation, since they are 340i's now).

On Sachsenring in Germany the 335i runs 1:44.3 or 1:45.0 seconds (it had 2 times, one might have been a coupe)  Here are the fastest SUVs on that track:

Bentley Bentayga 1:44.5   Cayenne Turbo S 1:44.7   AMG ML63 1:47.2

The 335i is with them all, and those are probably the 3 fastest SUVs on the planet.  I also found times on Virginia International raceway (pre 2014), and the 2012 335i ran a 3:13.2 lap.  The only SUV in the top 125 lap times was a Grand Cherokee SRT-8 at 3:17.4

That is a generation old 3-series going as fast as a Bentley Bentayga, the fastest SUV there is, and think of how much faster the 335i must be in the corners since it has literally half the horsepower and torque.

WHO CARES! Only YOU!

We cannot take our SUV's there to run them so it really is about American ROADS with American Versus German auto's here in America not Germany.

Here, the proof is in the pudding as they say and many of us that drive full size trucks and SUV's have no problem trouncing on the German auto's.

End Result, BMW and MB build quality cars to their roads but that does NOT mean they truly cannot be put down by American Products and This I know for a Fact.

Eat my American Exhaust!

My point is a Yukon can not keep up with a 335i in corners if a Bentley Bentayga and Cayenne Turbo S can't.  The lap data proves that they can't, because both those SUVs beat a 335i in a straight line, get killed in corners.  Doesn't matter if those corners are in Germany, England, or USA.

Do you REALLY believe a 1:44.7 lap time "isn't keeping up with" a 1:44.5???

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

Do you REALLY believe a 1:44.7 lap time "isn't keeping up with" a 1:44.5???

 

The overall lap time is even but the Cayenne Turbo S or Bentayga  is much faster in a straight line than a 335i.  So in corners or "twisties" the 335i has a significant advantage.  And a Bentayga is significantly faster than a Yukon.

32 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The overall lap time is even but the Cayenne Turbo S or Bentayga  is much faster in a straight line than a 335i.  So in corners or "twisties" the 335i has a significant advantage.  And a Bentayga is significantly faster than a Yukon.

And you know this because a Yukon has actually been tested there right?

Oh wait.

All I know is that a mid-engine Vette will eat them all for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and that is what this thread is ACTUALLY about.

43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The overall lap time is even ...

So is a 3:13.2 and a 3:17.4 - you're splitting hairs here. A Bentley SUV will never see a road course outside of (pointless) magazine testing.

So what makes you think a packaged Tahoe could not somehow equal that number? GC SRT is a big, tall, heavy (5100 lbs) SUV and it's hanging right off the 335i's bumper. I for one would sure like to see the Tahoe RST lap time.

...but the Cayenne Turbo S or Bentayga  is much faster in a straight line than a 335i.  So in corners or "twisties" the 335i has a significant advantage.  And a Bentayga is significantly faster than a Yukon.

Maybe the 335i can drive a circular track, you know; constant left turns, and widen the lap time gap with the SUVs.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

So is a 3:13.2 and a 3:17.4 - you're splitting hairs here. A Bentley SUV will never see a road course outside of (pointless) magazine testing.

So what makes you think a packaged Tahoe could not somehow equal that number? GC SRT is a big, tall, heavy (5100 lbs) SUV and it's hanging right off the 335i's bumper. I for one would sure like to see the Tahoe RST lap time.

 

 

Maybe the 335i can drive a circular track, you know; constant left turns, and widen the lap time gap with the SUVs.

Because a Yukon is larger and heavier than a Grand Cherokee SRT and has less horsepower. 

Also consider a Bentley Bentayga beats a Cadillac CTS-V in 0-60 time.  So even an SUV that is faster straight line than a CTS-V can't beat a 2012 335i around this race track which has a sizable straight away, and other decent sized straights.  And we were originally talking about a stock Yukon, but even a modified one would need like 800 hp to have any chance at beating a 300 hp 335i on a lap time, and still wouldn't match it in a corner.

Comparing SUV performance to compact sedan performance is absurd.....and how does any of this nonsense relate to a mid-engined Corvette?   

Leaving the debate of if an SUV can hold it's own against BMW 3 series auto's and the skill it takes to have a difference of mear partial seconds between cuv/suv and a car I go back to on topic:

On Topic:

You always find this the most common statement of a mid or rear engine auto.

"Handling improves with a better 50/50 weight split front/rear wheels and generally the reduced inertial moment of the vehicle by having the engine lower and closer to the center of gravity."

With that said, it is amazing to read what everyone is saying about Mid-engine versus front engine design.

Many will talk about all the advances made in Front engine performance auto's while keeping functionality of a car, cuv, or SUV with little sacrifice.

Mid-Engine is the performance focus where one gives up functionality all for the added partial seconds of performance.

Interesting read:

http://www.whyhighend.com/front-vs-mid-engine.html

This one goes into even more detail about the advantages and disadvantages and includes a video:

http://aermech.com/advantages-and-disadvantages-mid-engine-cars-rwd-vs-awd/

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Because a Yukon is larger and heavier than a Grand Cherokee SRT and has less horsepower. 

Also consider a Bentley Bentayga beats a Cadillac CTS-V in 0-60 time.  So even an SUV that is faster straight line than a CTS-V can't beat a 2012 335i around this race track which has a sizable straight away, and other decent sized straights.  And we were originally talking about a stock Yukon, but even a modified one would need like 800 hp to have any chance at beating a 300 hp 335i on a lap time, and still wouldn't match it in a corner.

The Bentayga and the CTS-V have an indetical 0-60 time of 3.5 seconds, with one being a W12 and the other being a V8.

14 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Comparing SUV performance to compact sedan performance is absurd.....and how does any of this nonsense relate to a mid-engined Corvette?   

Brings up the excellent idea of what if we move the engine from the front to a mid place in a Truck or SUV? Can the internal space given up be recovered by having a frunk and adjusting the rear seating?

Be an interesting engineering exercise to see how the higher center of gravity is affected in a mid-engined Suv/Cuv auto.

35 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Brings up the excellent idea of what if we move the engine from the front to a mid place in a Truck or SUV? Can the internal space given up be recovered by having a frunk and adjusting the rear seating?

Be an interesting engineering exercise to see how the higher center of gravity is affected in a mid-engined Suv/Cuv auto.

No, that won't work.  The engine would rob all the interior space and it would still be to heavy and tall of a vehicle to do anything with it.  What you could have is an electric SUV with a motor at each wheel and the batteries in the middle, but then that is basically a Tesla Model X.

On 8/5/2017 at 0:59 PM, smk4565 said:

Yes he posted how the Yukon is slower on a figure 8 than a Diesel 3-series.  So clearly a 335i as he originally said would easily outrun it in the twisties.

U truly are a German loving Ho-Type. Seriously.. I scratch myself hard every time I think about the fact that I served this country so that POS twats like U could talk shit about it. 

My exact quote is easily found.. but I'll help your sorry ass:

Quote

The current Corvette.. and several generations  before have been the test bed for almost every performance vehicle GM has put out. The Camaro didn't suddenly become a handling genius out of no where.. nor did the CTS, ATS, and even Regal and Tahoe.. the engineering was started by team Vette.. and trickled into what is now the absolute best handling line-up (every GM) on the market overall. I can tell U that it wouldn't be far fetched to take a GMC Yukon and put it up against a 335i and that Yukon, all 2.5 tons would hold its own on the twisties.. So the invest is not for nothin.. Thanks Corvette

Now.. let me ask U this.. where the FUCK did I say that a Yukon could BEAT a 335i? I said hold its own.. as in around the CURVES.. or the real world and not a road course all the way over in your beloved Germany. TWISTIES.. I have.. on many occasion gone up against plenty of 3series, A4s and such.. and HELD my own in hard curves. How the hell this became an all out obsession with U talking about a FULL-SIZE TRUCK based SUV running on the NurRing is beyond me. My only explanation is that U are some sort of daft Rain Man.

The point of my statement was that the engineering of the Corvette is a trickle occurrence that lends itself to almost all vehicles in the GM line-up, including the truck/suvs. 

32 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

U truly are a German loving Ho-Type. Seriously.. I scratch myself hard every time I think about the fact that I served this country so that POS twats like U could talk $h! about it. 

My exact quote is easily found.. but I'll help your sorry ass:

Now.. let me ask U this.. where the f@#k did I say that a Yukon could BEAT a 335i? I said hold its own.. as in around the CURVES.. or the real world and not a road course all the way over in your beloved Germany. TWISTIES.. I have.. on many occasion gone up against plenty of 3series, A4s and such.. and HELD my own in hard curves. How the hell this became an all out obsession with U talking about a FULL-SIZE TRUCK based SUV running on the NurRing is beyond me. My only explanation is that U are some sort of daft Rain Man.

The point of my statement was that the engineering of the Corvette is a trickle occurrence that lends itself to almost all vehicles in the GM line-up, including the truck/suvs. 

I am not talking $h! on USA.  I know you said the Yukon could "hold its own" and that is false.  As I pointed out even the fastest SUV not he planet can not keep up with a 335i in corners.  This is scientifically proven, and I only picked a racetrack in Virginia and one in Germany since that is what I could find for a 335i, there are dozens of tracks with lap times for newer, faster 435i's.

And I agree that the Corvette's engineering trickles down to every other car, but same goes for the Audi R8, the AMG GT, LF-A, 911s, etc.  Even the Alfa Romeo has 75% of a Ferrari V8 under the hood.  That is industry standard.

Car & Driver, 2015 BMW 335i x-drive, 300-ft skidpad: 0.86 g, 0-60: 4.6 sec, 1/4 mile: 13.3 @ 105, 70-0 braking: 186'.

Car & Driver, 2003 Lingenfelter Escalade, 300-ft skidpad, 0.83 g, 0-60: 4.0 sec, 1/4 mile: 12.7 @ 106, 70-0 braking: 182'.

6 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Comparing SUV performance to compact sedan performance is absurd.....and how does any of this nonsense relate to a mid-engined Corvette?   

This has to be the worst C&G thread since politics were removed. 

6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

No, that won't work.  The engine would rob all the interior space and it would still be to heavy and tall of a vehicle to do anything with it.  What you could have is an electric SUV with a motor at each wheel and the batteries in the middle, but then that is basically a Tesla Model X.

No an EV SUV with motors at each wheel is NOT Tesla Model X. They have a motor in the differential center of front and back driving each set of wheels.

I have posted many times about a company in Detroit that build In Wheel Hub motors and has converted an F150 and Brabus E-Class to AWD using these in wheel hub motors.

http://www.proteanelectric.com/

BRABUS EV based on the Mercedes-Benz E-Class

• All new EV system developed to demonstrate a peak combined 320 kW (430 hp) and 3,200 Nm (2,350 lb-ft) torque
• Debuted on the Brabus stand at the 2011 Frankfurt Motor Show
• All electric power using four direct-drive Protean Electric motors, one in each wheel

Ford F-150 EV (2008)

• Four Protean Drive® motors
• One motor at each wheel
• AWD battery EV
• Electric truck with over 7,000 lb GVW
• IC engine removed

This is where the Corvette mid-engine tech can come into play for tuning an auto. There is nothing to say a mid-engine cuv or suv would not be a decent performance handling machine.

Course, an AWD in-wheel hub motor suv would be best. Better is for Corvette to have this as a performance version.

I know Tesla uses a dual motor, one front one rear, Mercedes did the SLS electric with a motor at every wheel.  With an electric car you can do pretty much anything you want.  With a gas engine, especially a V8 you need like a 3 by 3 by 3 foot cube, you can't stick that in the middle of an SUV and make it work.  Maybe, rear engine like the old VW buses, but even then what would be the point of a rear engine SUV with no cargo capacity.

I'd say a all electric Corvette with motors at each wheel makes sense though.

Would be interesting to see an OEM build something with those wheel hub motors, interesting concept. 

This is essentially where Tesla got its design for the models it has.. Introduced in 2002 as a concept... some in this thread will hate where it comes from.. 

10 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

This is essentially where Tesla got its design for the models it has.. Introduced in 2002 as a concept... some in this thread will hate where it comes from.. 

GM Skateboard Baby, Always been an innovator in technology. Amazing is that another company has built many EV platforms trying to get OEM's to buy their setup to use in EV auto manufacturing. Trexa, they started off with their Tube design and then now have their own skateboard design.