Spying: Mid-Engine Chevrolet Corvette, Now In Detail!

The point I ponder on this car is how I expect it to be much more than many have even considered. 

It is clear this car was in development back almost 10 years ago and they never stopped working on it. Bob Lutz delayed it from the C7 to the C8 but they never stopped work on it. This should really have given the time to get the details right and had more time for funding to do the things that get left behind in shorter development times, 

It will be interesting on the details of cost and if they keep the Stingray for a while or longer. I have seen reports at some point the entry level car in the future will be $70K and the high end touching $200K. 

While it will not effect the hyper million dollar cars this car could turn the mid range Mid Engine class on its ear. I expect better performance for half and less the price of many of the others. 

I think Tadge will surprise many with what he will bring to the market.  Take the present car and center the mass more then add the higher HP of a LT engine and it will be amazing and yet still affordable to many. 

The beautiful thing about the Corvette has always been that it is a Chevrolet that can take on the world and win, yet still be affordable.  We've heard mid-engine rumors for about 50 years now and thankfully nothing has come of them.  I'm not sold.

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

The beautiful thing about the Corvette has always been that it is a Chevrolet that can take on the world and win, yet still be affordable.  We've heard mid-engine rumors for about 50 years now and thankfully nothing has come of them.  I'm not sold.

Why so glum? 

If they can provide a car with better weight distribution yet retain the convertible top and a price in the same area they are in now what is wrong with that? 

Also additions like AWD would be easier and the cockpit would be much more roomy inside. 

While doing all this the lower profile would provide a lower center of gravity and better aero. 

The only reason most Mid Engine cars are expensive is because they are made in such low volumes and they can ask the price.  Ferrari, Mclaren and now the NSX are all moving to models in the mid range that Chevy can challenge at half of or even less the price. 

GM has the ability to make a very competitive car for around the same price as what they sell now and with a mid engine they could even offer some higher priced models that people would not have bought any other way. 

The other 800 pound gorilla in the room is that the Corvette fan base is aging. Younger buyers have gravitated to the more modern and advanced models. I was just at a car show last week with over 35 Ferrari and Lamborghini in attendance. Over half were owned buy men under $35 involved in advanced technologies. Most paid little attention to any of the many rare Corvettes or the new Z06 on hand. Tadge has seen this as a problem moving forward. 

FYI I got to sit in a friends Miura that was freshly back from Pebble Beach. It is an amazing car. Hard to believe he drove it there being valued over $2.5 million. I would be terrified of some old person drifting into my lane. 

Anyways I am not picking on you here. I am courious what legitimate reason not to move forward could be presented with no argument to counter it for the new car. 

The one I find most give is the car has a balance of 50/50 already. What they fail to account for is that balance is good but centered weight is even more desirable. You cut the polar moment of the car down and it makes a massive improvement in handling. This is what Tadge is chasing as the C7 went to a longer wheel base to move the weight more centered. At this point how much longer wheel base can they go?

If you look at the mule the engine is going to be very centered with the longer tail

awesome!

5 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

If they can provide a car with better weight distribution yet retain the convertible top and a price in the same area they are in now what is wrong with that? 

No chance in hell this will be priced in the same area as the current Vette starting at 50k or so.

11 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

buy men under $35

Uh... WHAT!? 

Corvette should be front engine/rear drive.  

Mid-engine should be a Cadillac super car.

Mazda didn't make the Miata mid-engine, Porsche didn't make the 911 front engine.  They still with the formula.  I am all for GM offering a mid-engine car, but not a the expense of 60 years of front engine - rear drive Corvette.

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

No chance in hell this will be priced in the same area as the current Vette starting at 50k or so.

Why not?

Moving the engine back and the cab forward needs not be an expensive adventure unless you want to make it all carbon and only make 400 units. 

The Corvette is already a trans axle car and the center torque tube could easily be removed. 

Cooling is easy with two stainless tubes to the front and a couple extra hoses. AC just needs longer lines. 

As for price I never said $50K . First off even if they keep with the present car the price is going to move up so it will be in the $60K-70K range in a few years. Hell the Camaro is close to the Corvette now. 

You will see the expensive car first if what I have heard is right. The first model will be high end and about $170K-200K. They will string the Stingray along and then replace it with a cheaper version that will be much more affordable and also offered in a roadster. 

Just going mid engine does not necessarily make a car expensive. Generally it is because many are pre planned low production cars of a couple thousand or less. They at that low volume add many high end materials because they put a price point that requires it and can contain it. Companies like Ferrari also do not want to sell 10K 488 models. Part of the exclusivity is part of the price. 

Fiat, Pontiac, Toyota, and others have all offered affordable mid engine cars in the past. Generally because of the low volume and ultra low price they suffered parts bin parts. Corvette in this mid range will be able to use parts bin parts like the LT engine and still use Corvette only parts else where. They can use similar suspension parts as with the present Stingray. Word has been they had considered basing a front and mid engine on the same platform. 

GM has some real leeway here that the other do not have. 

Also it is reported the Vette will start with the LT engine but will make use of a DOHC engine in the future. Emission will kill the two valve as they keep upping the regulations in many areas. Just not enough adjustment in the cam in block to meet the emissions. Also they will not need the smaller engine due to no cowl height  issues with the engine in back. 

Might note others like Mclaren have gone to offer lower priced models than just the high end cars. They are still saddled by low volume but they have a 540c at $165,000 now

http://www.theweek.co.uk/63402/mclaren-540c-unveiled-126k-car-is-the-cheapest-mclaren-ever

Audi R8 starts at  $162,000 with a very expensive V10 so why could Chevy not beat that price with a Corvette with a very much less expensive engine and some less expensive bits that the Corvette never had in the first place. 

Heck we now have a Z06 that has carbon fenders and Large Brembo brakes and it still comes in just over $100K. So these same brakes and engine with a little carbon why could it not be prices similar? to the others or less? 

You really have to look at what is in these cars and the marketing as to how they offer so few they have to charge a lot and they can do it because people will pay it in many cases just for the name. I was at a show with 35-40 Lambo, Audi and Ferrari's on the field. I can tell you now few of those cars ever turned a wheel  in anger. they were guys 30-55 average that wore Puma shirts with the Prancing horse that were letting their 10 year old kid sit in the car reving the engine. Yes I saw that going on. You did not see that in the Corvette row. 

This car will break ground like the C4 did by offering parts, low price and performance you never saw in a mid engine at this level. 

Now I am sure their will be the ultra ZR 06 something down the road that they will only sell 1200 of and Rick Hendrick will buy the first one at a very high price. Why will they do it because a few will pay the price and it will help pay the bills in fewer numbers of models than the civilian version. If they will buy it is good business. Also you can make some parts legal that Pratt and Miller may like on their race car. 

Porsche does this with the 911 as they have the low end model and then they have the GT3 RS

Keep in mind the Corvette only has to keep a model affordable but they have show in the last few years the ability to sell several variations at some high prices. They also have leverage as they have a much larger customer base and can sell 25K cars a year and not damage their exclusivity. In America a Vette owner is still admired even if there are two more in the same parking lot. As for them globally they are seen as exotic since so few were exported. 

Ford started to do the same thing Chevy is going to do with the last GT. They kept the price down and built more than most expected. To be honest they should have kept that going as the new one even with the added models is going to be rare and few will ever be driven. But at the high price they will not lose money and there is less risk as they are limiting things. 

Also the platform an plant here will be seen at Cadillac at some point in a very different natured car. Much like the Lambo and Audi share but are much different models. This will drive the cost down and make the Corvette even more affordable.  

54 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Corvette should be front engine/rear drive.  

Mid-engine should be a Cadillac super car.

Mazda didn't make the Miata mid-engine, Porsche didn't make the 911 front engine.  They still with the formula.  I am all for GM offering a mid-engine car, but not a the expense of 60 years of front engine - rear drive Corvette.

Why can't Chevy do an affordable mid engine and Cadillac once they get their house in order do a Super mega priced low volume car? Right now Cadillac is struggling to get their core models they are known for done and successful. Doing a hyper car would be great but they need to get their core product right first and the SUV models out making money. 

They would be better off first with a $60K roadster like a BMW with a trunk for weekend trips on the PCH. 

Mazda has a nice little roadster that men and women like and it is cheap. Not a bad car but far from being able to challenge the best per lap time. 

911 is a car unto it self. While it is still a rear engine car it had been totally re engineered and is no where the same car it once was. 

Corvette on the other hand has changed much though the years. It started as a 6 cylinder with a 2 speed auto, It had no crank up windows. So they put a V8 in it. 
They then changed the body to have no trunk. Who would think a car in the 60's with no trunk or opening to the back would work? Well it did. How about pop up lights that often failed. They still bought the car. 

Next the Stingray. It was a nightmare to see out of with fender bulges and c pillars that were extended just enough to block a semi. Wiper covers that did not open and other issues. A body style that stayed too long and was cheapened up with things like a Vega steering wheel and little power. Yet they still sold. 

The C4 with quality issues and other engineering issues like stiff ride at first and cross fire injection. yet they bought them. 

C5 quality issues but yet they bought them. Removed the pop up lights and the C6 was still a hit. Today the C7 is limited performance wise by the pure physics of its drivetrain. has more performance to give but not enough grip to put it down. Yet they buy. Next they will buy it with a large wing just to plant the car for better lap times. 

The reason for the move is pure physics. While we all understand the car is a near perfect balance of 50/50 it still has a lot of mass on the ends of the chassis. Move that mass more centered and it makes the platform much more efficient. 

If you are no following take a bar bell and move the weigh to the ends. Now twist it up and down. It takes a lot of effort on the wrist to rotate the mass. Now move the weigh to the center near your hands and twist. It takes so much less energy and make it more efficient. This is what makes a car handle better and provide better grip. The more the mass is to the center and lower it is the better the platform behaves. To do this does not have to cost a lot of money that even Mclaren has shown of late. 

If you think GM can not use their resources and beat Mclaren at this you are sorely mistaken. 

Time moves on and if you stay with tradition too long you will pay a price. Many of you should know this with the mess the C3 became over the years of little change and effort to meet the markets best. 

I'm in the same camp as ocnblu- not seeing a huge or even marked potential of car improvement going to ME.
At this point the Corvette enjoys a much more rarified position in the super car arena being FE.
And then there's this :

Corvette should go back to a base V6, I have for years said they could do a base V6, they could price it at $49,995 for the affordable model, even with the 3.6, 335 hp engine and 8-speed, the Corvette doesn't weigh much, it would still be under 5 seconds 0-60 and get over 30 mpg.  That is a lot of performance for $50k in a car that has that kind of handling, and you could use all the power.    I think Z06 should have 600 hp max, the car can't even put the power down to use it at that point.   This also keeps Corvette $50-100k which is plenty of price for a Chevy, the value, mainstream brand of GM.  

Part of the problem of GM thinking is they think the Corvette has to be the best performing, fastest, most powerful car at GM.  But why?  Why can't they make a sports car above Corvette?  When Porsche wanted a 210 mph hyper car, they didn't try to put a 10 cylinder in the back of a 911, they made the mid-engine Carerra GT followed by the 918 Hybrid.  Mercedes didn't try to make an a grand touring SL hit 215 mph, they had the SLR McLaren for that.  They didn't throw away what the 911 or SL were because they wanted more performance, they just added a model above them.  That is how GM should be thinking, let the Corvette carry out it's mission, which is really successful doing, and make something above it to go after the hyper cars.

And where does it end?  They bring out a mid-engine Corvette, but then Aston Martin-Red Bull bring out the  001 with 1,000 hp weighing 2,200 lbs.  Then Mercedes-AMG start selling the R50 with a Formula 1 V6 and 3 electric motors making 1,300 hp.  Do they push the Corvette to 1,000 hp and $1,000,000 base price to keep up?  They can't have the mentality that Corvette will compete with the best in the world because it can't.  They shouldn't even want to price it like an Audi R8 because the Audi R8 has crap sales.  

Chevrolet is more than a 1-dimensional brand and has been for half it's existence.

IMO, a mid-engined Corvette 'Special' would make an interesting addition to the catalog of models, but it had better not kill off the current configuration.

3 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Why not?

Moving the engine back and the cab forward needs not be an expensive adventure unless you want to make it all carbon and only make 400 units. 

You even said 170-200k range for the first year or so. Even cut that in half to 85-100k and I don't know about you but saying "same area" as the current Vette isn't 35k or 37% MORE. I'd give 10-15% mark up to be in the same area but not 37% cutting your 170k in half to 85k. 

I said no chance because from what I've heard the current Vette will still be along side it so there has to be some price spread to make it even worth buying the "regular" Vette. 

No it doesn't HAVE to be priced way higher but we all know it will with the other Vette still hanging around. They will want some exclusivity and it will likely have a new engine, new everything, and be one badass car. I just don't see any way this will be priced "near" the current Vette...

20 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You even said 170-200k range for the first year or so. Even cut that in half to 85-100k and I don't know about you but saying "same area" as the current Vette isn't 35k or 37% MORE. I'd give 10-15% mark up to be in the same area but not 37% cutting your 170k in half to 85k. 

I said no chance because from what I've heard the current Vette will still be along side it so there has to be some price spread to make it even worth buying the "regular" Vette. 

No it doesn't HAVE to be priced way higher but we all know it will with the other Vette still hanging around. They will want some exclusivity and it will likely have a new engine, new everything, and be one badass car. I just don't see any way this will be priced "near" the current Vette...

Well you have to factor the increase of cost of any new C model. Each one has had a jump in price. Also you have to factor what a Corvette will cost by 2019 too. I expect the $50K models days are numbers no matter where the engine is. 

As for the two models. This has been around for a good while. Word is the Stingray will remain in production for about 2-3 years. Once they get the first expensive model out they will focus on bringing a lower priced coupe out and a convertible. GM generally does not do all models at one time anymore due to development cost. If they killed the C7 all at once it would leave them with no cheaper model or a convertible that counts for a high number of sales. Even  Mclaren did not do a convertible the first year of production or the cheaper model in the first two years. 

The last ZR1 was almost $130K loaded. They were able to redo the car in the new Z06 at $100K and a Grand sport with many similar features starting in the $60K range. Now this shows the flexibility to do a lot with a little. It has nothing to do with the engine being up front either. 

Now as for the engine I expect it to be a the Supercharged LT with more power. This engine has not even shown all it can do yet as the present car can not make use of what it is able to do. The ZR1 engine with a less advanced supercharger and no DI could do 725 HP all day according to the GM engineer that told me. It had passed emissions and warranty test and only needed to be installed if they wanted it. The DI engine is much more able and can easily do 750 HP with  little else needed. Word is they have tested it much higher. 

As for DOHC they may get to it but not at first. GM and the Vette seldom into a new engine and car at the same time. Again development cost. They are in a good place with the engine and it can come later. 

As for the future of the Vette. There will be several models and all prices to how fast you want to go. You can just have fast at a based price in the future once the C7 goes away. Then their will be a mid priced model with many Zora like features much like the present Grand Sport. Then there will be the Zora. In the end I would expect a pure track car like Ford has now to take advantage of the rules in IMSA. 

The key to all of this is that if the C7 goes away there will be a car in a similar price range even with Mid Engine to replace it. The Corvette was always a good sports car for the money. It made it a sports car for the common man. The future has to hold to this but today the car has become a great sports car no matter that it is still relatively affordable to most people. 

As I have pointed out the other makers are creeping down in price to garner more support for volume. Corvette has survived on volume and much of that is due to price. Most sports cars at low volume or too low of price last 5-10 years at best. 

If you do not charge enough you do not make enough money to make over the car very often. It then dies. Or you charge a lot and you sell too few then it dies because no volume. We saw this with the Viper.  The Vette has had a good balance and I see Tadge protecting that. In the future too when Cadillac is ready the platform sharing could also be a great help. 

Even an Icon like Harley while they offer high end bikes that cost over $40K they still offer their bread and butter Sportster that even a collage kid can afford.  The Corvette will be similar. 

To be honest I would love to see them keep the front engine Stingray. Chevy had looked at doing a smaller cheaper roadster with a V6. Transform this car into a model much like this. Just call it a Stingray.  It could make a nice club racer or even a car to step up from a Miata. 

22 hours ago, balthazar said:

I'm in the same camp as ocnblu- not seeing a huge or even marked potential of car improvement going to ME.
At this point the Corvette enjoys a much more rarified position in the super car arena being FE.
And then there's this :

With Super cars moving down market the Corvette is not closing in on them but the others are moving down. With an Mclaren in the $150k range they have moved away from just doing cars like the P1 at over a Million and focused more on the low end. 

As for the improvements just do the physics. It is simple and easy to understand. It is not just 50/50 balance but the need to center the weight that adds grip and ease of handling. Shut off the computer on the present Z06 and see how lap times fall off. It is much like the F117 that can only fly with a computer. 

Only same-track times I could find between these 2 : Virginia Internat'l

Ferrari 488 GTB, 661 HP : 2:45.10
Corvette GS, 466 HP : 2:47.10

That's not enough difference to revamp a 50+ yr heritage as FE into ME; anyone racing these cars together (if that's even ever happened) would be racing modified versions.
In the C&D Lightning Lap, Corvette GS was registering record lateral Gs in certain turns (1.20), and lost far less MPH in the Climbing Esses than either the Porsche GT3 RS (500 HP) or the McLaren 570S (562 HP). Neither abundantly more HP NOR mid (or rear) engine placement gained these cars much, and sometimes cost them performance. 570S has a far inferior 42%/58% weight distribution, so does the 488 GTB.

Mid engine is not the be all, end all of performance- a serious sports exotic has to do their homework… ALL their homework.

3) The Camaro almost makes the Corvette redundant as a sports car at Chevy. The Camaro is on level with the Mustang. It could be a viable Flagship for Chevy at this point especially with the Camaro stretching out all the way to $80,000 for a Z28. Its performance is undeniable. It is no longer the go to for tack heads with mullets or guidos with gold chains. The Camaro is down right "Premium" in its own right

4) A revisit to the profitability of a Corvette Brand. The Corvette division is something I've been talking about for years though..

It has occurred to me that Chevy, and possibly GM really are pushing for the Camaro to be the Halo car for Chevy these days. If so... is the Corvette finally gonna get the autonomy it deserves as a separate brand, just sold in Chevy, or better yet.. Cadillac dealers?

Quite frankly I believe that GM would make very large profits with a Corvette Specific brand in the same vane as Porsche's 911 and Cayenne:

a) Stingray $55K-75K (Base Model 460HP)

c)Cien (CT11) (it along with the Escalade would be the only non Alphanumeric) It would be completely based off mid-engine ZORA and would come out before it. 720HP for coupe and a Roadster at 730HP

22 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

All of this would continue to be sold at a CHEVY dealership in a separate (even if by partitioned wall) part of Dealership with specific/exclusive sales reps and technicians, again better yet would be the Cadillac Dealers being able to

I think this part is where things will become too costly for a business standpoint. They definitely cannot do this at all dealerships as not all Chevy dealerships are 1) Cadillac dealers so you will not get the level of treatment you're talking about(that I agree with) and 2) They aren't all large enough to even partition off a part of the showroom for something like this without rebuilding the entire building.

Everything else you said I pretty much agree with 100%.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I think this part is where things will become too costly for a business standpoint. They definitely cannot do this at all dealerships as not all Chevy dealerships are 1) Cadillac dealers so you will not get the level of treatment you're talking about(that I agree with) and 2) They aren't all large enough to even partition off a part of the showroom for something like this without rebuilding the entire building.

Everything else you said I pretty much agree with 100%.

Yeah well all Chevy dealers aren't allowed to sell Corvettes anyway. They have to have some criteria met. Problem is that with Chevy Dealers.. U have the same salesmen selling Silverado Pick-Ups and Chevy Sparks as U do selling a $100K Z06 already. Every dealer doesn't have a Mike Furman (Criswell) or Rick Conti. This vehicle is PREMIUM.. if not a SUPERCAR. This should be given to both Cadillac and Corvette for the added volume. Cadillac needs two sports cars IMO, altho one of them can certainly be a CTS Coupe type, altho a small Benz AMG GT type pretty much based off the C7, which will still be being sold for a while even when this comes out, would be nice too. This Mid-Engine.. if its already gonna be selling as a Corvette simply has no reason not to be sold in limited quantities as a Cadillac

What the problem is that Porsche is not GM, nor are they Chevy, nor is the Corvette a 911.

Now if Corvette had been a stand alone MFG and division this would make sense but with Chevy sitting right there with a full line of product that is pretty much identical to anything GM would do with Corvette it would be a foolish move.

The Corvette has become an Icon as a sports car and has a loyal following. Many owners own not just one but several of the cars. They also buy and trade often. Most sports car owners are not always like this in this price range.

Is Cadillac known as a sports car company? No! Does Cadillac have a great history with 2 seat sports cars. No!  So making number three here at this point of time when they are still sorting out their core product would end in total failure. You would sell a few cars. The Values would drop and leave people regretting they ever paid $200K for a Cadillac making it even more difficult to get them to buy a $100K TT V8 CT6.

The thing about the Corvette is it does something few cars can do. It not only attracts Chevy fans to the brand but there are many people that care little for Chevy but they own Corvettes. This means this car can lead a life as a Chevy and Just be called Corvette with no issue.

First I would let Chevy reveal the car and the plan before we jump the shark here.

As for the hard cores LOL! These are the same folks who cried when the trunks were removed in 63. They also were the ones who wailed in 68 when the C2 went away.

These are the same folks who bought the 75 C3 with no power and a Vega steering wheel.

They were upset with the C4 till they drove one.

Hated the C5 because of the big but. Yet they lined up and purchased. Pop up head lamps vanish and they said no more  Corvette for me yet sales were still strong.

About the only thing that slows and kills sales of new Corvettes is where they change too little and they keep a platform around too long.

The simple fact is the same people who gave us the excellent C7 are working on the C8. They have done a hell of a job on the last two gens and I do not see them dropping the ball now.

The bottom line to do this car as a Cadillac at this point and time would be strike three. Make a sedan and SUV that is world class first and earn the public's trust first then give them a car to attract attention. That is how Audi did it.

Making Corvette suv and sedan models. We already have that .  It is called Chevy. You prostitute the name too much and it will damage it. Protect our good name is a primary goal.

Finally let them finish this car and show their plans. This is far from doom and gloom as we hear at every C platform change.

If we had left this to the hardliners who hate change the Corvette would never have lasted.

Take a look at every C change. 50% hate it and 50% love it and in the end 95% like it and sales take off. It is a trend we have seen many times and it is something Chevy knows.

In the end time to stop comparing the Corvette to Porsche and Cadillac to the Germans. They both have their won paths that they need to follow.