SPIED: Chevy's smallest EV drops its CAMO!

Now if the Volt's 4-banger ran on ethanol, or CNG, or propane, or even diesel...

Oh but it does matter where the juice comes from - just saying.

And the Volt?

It's the only electric car that makes any sense.

Simply untrue. Even the Leaf/FocusEV/SparkEVmakes sense for certain people.

I posted this article on Friday from the Acela train to DC. The guy in the booth next to me and I were talking about electric cars. He's on a wait list for a Leaf. He lives in D.C. and takes the metro for most things. If he goes long distance it is normally by train or by car. He only needs a car for the occational trips out to the suburbs. His wife has a crossover for hauling the kids around. He is trading in a Jetta for the Leaf and it seems to make a lot of sense for his needs. No need for the Volt because he doesn't need the range in his second car.

Even my Albert could make the Leaf work as his primary car if he wasn't so insistent that he needs AWD. We would still need something for distance runs, but for his run to work, he would have 85 miles of range left over at the end of the day.

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for everyone.

Drew, your above post shows that an electric car is still only practical as a second car for short trips. Who has money for two cars? I want something that can operate in any condition I need it for...

As far as the LaCrosse goes, I am simply relaying what Ward's said in their article.

Oh but it does matter where the juice comes from - just saying.

And the Volt?

It's the only electric car that makes any sense.

Simply untrue. Even the Leaf/FocusEV/SparkEVmakes sense for certain people.

I posted this article on Friday from the Acela train to DC. The guy in the booth next to me and I were talking about electric cars. He's on a wait list for a Leaf. He lives in D.C. and takes the metro for most things. If he goes long distance it is normally by train or by car. He only needs a car for the occational trips out to the suburbs. His wife has a crossover for hauling the kids around. He is trading in a Jetta for the Leaf and it seems to make a lot of sense for his needs. No need for the Volt because he doesn't need the range in his second car.

Even my Albert could make the Leaf work as his primary car if he wasn't so insistent that he needs AWD. We would still need something for distance runs, but for his run to work, he would have 85 miles of range left over at the end of the day.

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for everyone.

Just because it "works" for some people in their usual routine, doesn't mean it makes sense when that routine changes, or that it makes sense as an engineering direction. Only the Volt covers the bases and can claim to really be a fully-capable car.

Situations change all the time. The cts fit my daily routine until it didn't. Suddenly I needed a truck so I bought the Avalanche. Then my financial situation changed and I had to sell the avalanche and end the CTS lease and drive a $750 Buick Wagon that I borrowed. Then I went with no car for a while and just used Alberts CRV and the bus.

You don't buy a car today based on what you think you might need in 5 years. Lots of families are 2 vehicle families, thus the leaf or focusEV or SparkEV do make sense.

Point is, if one must have a bit of humming in their vehicle, a Volt is the only car of its kind that would not have to be sold if one moved to the country by choice or circumstance.

Those aren't the sort of changes I was talking about. How about a sudden illness that requires just a few more miles of range to visit your spouse in the hospital?

How will you feel about that Spark EV, or that Leaf then?

A thousand scenarios like that can , and will, occur.

All current electric cars (except the Volt) are toys to one degree or another. As all-around cars they do not yet measure-up.

That's the simple truth.

If you're more than 100 miles round trip from a hospital, you're probably not buying a leaf in the first place.

You can come up with all of the strawmen you want, I'll still be here to set them on fire.

C'mon Drew, you know better than that. You know that the owners of these cars will find themselves in circumstances where their full-electric car lets them down due to range. It will happen.

You also know that my point remains valid that these cars do not yet measure-up.

Wanting these cars to be the solution does not make it so.

100 miles round trip? Is that winter, spring, summer, or fall? Uphill in either direction? Highway, suburban, or urban? Jeez, so many variables to contend with. Range anxiety is real and justified when you are out there on your own.

100 miles round trip? Is that winter, spring, summer, or fall? Uphill in either direction? Highway, suburban, or urban? Jeez, so many variables to contend with. Range anxiety is real and justified when you are out there on your own.

My normal daily commute round trip is maybe 25 miles, but I like the predictability of approx 350 mile range and an abundant # of gas stations around..

From the last bit of my post from last night:

These battery-powered electric cars would be sold as city runabouts, marketed mainly to folks who live in big urban areas and their very closely-knit suburbs. People that have no idea what a country road really looks like or what a long trip or commute really feels like. With a maximum range of 100 miles, these would be cars built for people who drive to work 15 to 30 miles in one direction and only leave the house otherwise to run 10 to 20 miles to a supermarket or shopping mall.

In order for these cars to secure their place in the auto world of the future, automakers should instead focus on making them much cheaper to buy than what you can today and not bothering so much with chasing the range rabbit down its big, black hole.

That's the key to getting more electric, battery-only cars out there.

"I say Perseus old boy, do you have you heard about that new horseless carriage?"

"Why yes Batholomew , I hear it runs on some unheard of principle called internal combustion. They said it will replace the horse as mainstream transportation."

"Internal combustion you say? In what manner does it operate?"

"Well good sir, it is said that a machine used to convert energy into useful mechanical motion. This "internal combustion engine" is an engine in which the combustion of a petroleum-based fuel known as gasoline occurs with oxygen. the expansion of the high-temperature and high -pressure gases produced by combustion apply direct force to some component of the engine. This force is applied typically to what are being called pistons. This force moves the component over a distance, transforming chemical energy into useful mechanical energy."

"And this shall replace the horse as humankind's preferred mode of transportation?"

"Why yes, so it is being touted."

"Poppycock. What a preposterous idea!"

Hmm...yes, quite. Let us engage in laughter.

"Splendid idea old boy."

specious.

And a miata is an unsuitable primary vehicle on a farm, and a GMC Sierra Denali is an unsuitable primary vehicle for the average NYC dweller. And a SMART is an unsuitable primary vehicle for Octomom, and a Suburban is an unsuitable vehicle for a middle aged female office worker to commute 50 miles each way in.....

And yet, those vehicles are still built and sold.

For some people, the leaf is a suitable vehicle. You complain, loudly, when there is the threat of someone taking a V8 out of production. You feel that such the removal of choice is a disease to be stomped out.

Physician, heal thyself!

And a miata is an unsuitable primary vehicle on a farm, and a GMC Sierra Denali is an unsuitable primary vehicle for the average NYC dweller. And a SMART is an unsuitable primary vehicle for Octomom, and a Suburban is an unsuitable vehicle for a middle aged female office worker to commute 50 miles each way in.....

And yet, those vehicles are still built and sold.

For some people, the leaf is a suitable vehicle. You complain, loudly, when there is the threat of someone taking a V8 out of production. You feel that such the removal of choice is a disease to be stomped out.

Physician, heal thyself!

You misunderstand.

I am not against anyone choosing to buy and drive one of the current crop of EVs - far from it. I am also not against the automakers developing the technology. I am merely pointing out the shortcomings of the cars (which are many). I am against putting all of our eggs in the electric basket and expecting any measurable results. It is a foolish way to go about things, and hasn't much of a chance of ever solving our energy problems.

Who, besides Tesla, has put all of their eggs in an electric basket? Not one single manufacturer has. The Spark EV will arrive about 18 months after the Cruze diesel. Ford is talking about 3 cylinder turbos to compliment the Focus EV in the lineup. The transit connect comes in standard, electric, and natural gas. The Sonic and Cruze are both getting upgraded 1.4t power plants.

If there is a misunderstanding here, it's how you came up with this idea we are going all electric anytime soon.

Some people fear change.

Who, besides Tesla, has put all of their eggs in an electric basket? Not one single manufacturer has. The Spark EV will arrive about 18 months after the Cruze diesel. Ford is talking about 3 cylinder turbos to compliment the Focus EV in the lineup. The transit connect comes in standard, electric, and natural gas. The Sonic and Cruze are both getting upgraded 1.4t power plants.

If there is a misunderstanding here, it's how you came up with this idea we are going all electric anytime soon.

There are several misunderstandings here, as well as a number of assumptions.

I'm not referring to a manufacturer when I say that we are putting all of our eggs in the electric basket. I'm talking about the perception among many that everything will be just fine once we move to all electric cars. There is a strong emphasis on this one road as our "magic bullet" moving into the future.

It isn't.

And it probably can't be.

And I believe that it should not be.

I also believe that micro-engines in micro-cars is not the answer.

As I believe that tactics like CAFE are not the answer.

Electric cars are a distraction when we should be taking steps that make a real difference in the here and now as well as the future.

Some people fear change.

I don't fear change, I fear mistakes.

You don't learn unless you make mistakes. Suppose you are right and EVs can't be developed beyond their current level. What harm is done? A few city dwellers drive their leafs around and eventually give them up once all the charging stations are removed.

What I described above is a multi-prong approach. Diesels, 3 cylinder turbos, eAssist... It is getting to be far more diverse out there in engine technology than it has been in 7 decades. The only thing we're missing at this point (to my sadness) is steam vehicles.

Eventually one will become (or remain) the dominant technology. Mistakes might be made, but we will learn from them and move on.

You don't learn unless you make mistakes. Suppose you are right and EVs can't be developed beyond their current level. What harm is done? A few city dwellers drive their leafs around and eventually give them up once all the charging stations are removed.

What I described above is a multi-prong approach. Diesels, 3 cylinder turbos, eAssist... It is getting to be far more diverse out there in engine technology than it has been in 7 decades. The only thing we're missing at this point (to my sadness) is steam vehicles.

Eventually one will become (or remain) the dominant technology. Mistakes might be made, but we will learn from them and move on.

Good points all.

However (and this is what vexes me), we are not addressing the problem head-on. What we need are substitutes (plural) for oil. Not only are we not taking that search seriously enough, but we are ignoring some excellent interim substitutes that could be implemented today, with current technology. Further, we are allowing artificial barriers to entrepreneurial solutions that should be springing-up all around us. Free the innovators that know how to use what's available now to make things better now.

I am old enough to remember the gas lines of '73, and our progress since then has been piss-poor. So, my patience with pie-in-the-sky diddling with electric cars and waiting on fuel cells has grown a bit short.

I want to see real steps taken, and taken now.

Brazil has done it with ethanol.

Australia is doing it with CNG.

We have many resources and I want to see them all put to work.

Or to put it another way, provide me with an alternative fuel that I can use today and I'll immediately convert my Tahoe to run on it.

That means an ethanol pump nearby, or better yet, a CNG pump.

I'd love to stop burning foreign oil products today.

I'm not willing to say that we shouldn't pursue EVs just because Camino says so. I think at this point we keep all options open and be willing to admit that it might take a combination of these technologies to make it work. I see no reason that we need to pick just one.

I'm not willing to say that we shouldn't pursue EVs just because Camino says so. I think at this point we keep all options open and be willing to admit that it might take a combination of these technologies to make it work. I see no reason that we need to pick just one.

I don't say so, and never have.

I think it will take a combination of technologies to get the job done.

I have always said so - several times in this thread, in fact.

Don't care... which is the whole point about electrics! You don't care where the electricity is coming from as long as you're getting it. You like to $h! all over the Volt and Leaf and even the eAssist Lacrosse for using electricity. So the source of the electric doesn't seem to matter to you. As the technology continues to improve, battery range will get you further. In the meantime there are vehicles like the Volt to mitigate that problem. Electric is the power of the fastest land based vehicles on earth that move through the force of their wheels.

So no, I don't care where the power is from. The point is I'm running at 125mph under electric propulsion which is faster than ANY of the vehicles you have owned can go. IF by chance you did own one that could reach 125mph... in an hour I'll be in the 150mph zone.

Siding with this right here. I think people fail to see just how fast this is growing and changing. Wanna know what I know?

Just drive thru Dearborn. Ford has embraced it with open arms. You'll be surprised....

"I say Perseus old boy, do you have you heard about that new horseless carriage?"

"Why yes Batholomew , I hear it runs on some unheard of principle called internal combustion. They said it will replace the horse as mainstream transportation."

"Internal combustion you say? In what manner does it operate?"

"Well good sir, it is said that a machine used to convert energy into useful mechanical motion. This "internal combustion engine" is an engine in which the combustion of a petroleum-based fuel known as gasoline occurs with oxygen. the expansion of the high-temperature and high -pressure gases produced by combustion apply direct force to some component of the engine. This force is applied typically to what are being called pistons. This force moves the component over a distance, transforming chemical energy into useful mechanical energy."

"And this shall replace the horse as humankind's preferred mode of transportation?"

"Why yes, so it is being touted."

"Poppycock. What a preposterous idea!"

Hmm...yes, quite. Let us engage in laughter.

"Splendid idea old boy."

Damn DF, thanks for making sneeze Pepsi....

It doesn't matter. The thing that matters is what the customers want to buy. And hybrids and electrics have not taken off around the world the way some ppl are fantasizing.

I think we have one member here who owns a Volt. Any others? Who has a hybrid or full electric? Come on, talk is cheap, why isn't anyone putting their money down?

In Europe where fuel has been historically high, diesel is the frugal-minded person's power of choice. Not electric or hybrid.

Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

It won't change things, because it can't change things.

Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there....

Prius sells quite well..they are ubiquitous. Pure electrics are still in their early adopter phase, will be interesting to see how they do over time.

It won't change things, because it can't change things.

Why not? If we had that thought process, things would never change.

EVs are not going to take over the world-they are just going to be a bigger part of the market, that's all. Gas will always be an option, the question is more one price...

Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there....

That's just the most immediate problem.

Prius sells quite well..they are ubiquitous. Pure electrics are still in their early adopter phase, will be interesting to see how they do over time.

I would assume pretty much the same....

Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there....

That's just the most immediate problem.

Can I safely assume the gas station idea here?

It won't change things, because it can't change things.

Why not? If we had that thought process, things would never change.

EVs are not going to take over the world-they are just going to be a bigger part of the market, that's all. Gas will always be an option, the question is more one price...

They can't change things because of several things.

1) All electric cars combined make no measurable difference in our oil consumption, and they can't because even if sales could rise to that of a successful midsize they only enter service one model year at a time. The shift won't be significant for many, many years.

2) If production of EVs ever rises to a level that makes a real impact - then our grid can't handle it.

3) There is very little indication that the tech will work in applications beyond smallish cars, we don't function without trucks.

4) Range is inadequate

5) Battery supply is inadequate (as is the supply of the required materials)

* The exception is the Volt (or rather its technology and approach - which should be scaleable)

Prius sells quite well..they are ubiquitous. Pure electrics are still in their early adopter phase, will be interesting to see how they do over time.

I would assume pretty much the same....

Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there....

That's just the most immediate problem.

Can I safely assume the gas station idea here?

Sort of.

Sorry for the quote mess - not quite sure what happened there.

The short version is that by the time that EVs could make a real difference, it will be far too late to matter.

By themselves that is.

I do see them as a near- ideal option in a place like LA....

But imagine this, if you will.

The Volt system sort of in reverse.

On a full-sized pickup E-assist style.

The gains could be quite impressive.

And using 4wd could be really something.

Now extrapolate that to a large percentage of full-size pickup production in this country.

That sort of application is where I see electric doing the most good.

Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

(Deep Sigh)

Pathetic.. really?!

Let's take a look at both shall we..

Nissan Leaf sales:

10,369 (total sales since December 2010 launch)

676 Leafs sold in January 2012

With the Leaf, it currently is sold in 29 states with nationwide sales beginning later this year. That's up from the five states when it was launched in December 2010 ( California, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, and Tennessee).

But also there was this little thing in march that happened in Japan; the earthquake and tsunami. That knocked out production of the Nissan Leaf for a few months and caused many headaches for the company and people who reserved them. Nissan missed their goal of building of 50,000 Leafs for the world market. But they seemed happy with selling 20,000 worldwide.

Chevroler Volt sales:

8,600 (Vehicles sold since launch)

603 Volts sold in January

Ah the Volt, where do we begin. Like the Leaf, it was sold in limited markets, before being rolled out in 2011.

But the Volt suffered many problems. The plant was shut down for a few weeks in the summer to make room for the Malibu & new Impala. And then, there was the was the whole Battery fire incident. Plus, the plant has been idling up until last week or so

And I'll throw in the high price tag as being a factor and GM's outrageous sales projections (10,000 Volts in 2011, 45,000 in 2012)

Now to some, those numbers seem poor and its time to call them a failure. To me, those numbers seem right. They're selling them to the people who can a. afford them and b. know they can live with one.

*********************************************************

Look, I like electrics. But I also know they're not the key to solving are oil problem. Automakers are trying to figure out what works; gas engines with new tech, diesels, hybrids, Natural Gas, EVs, etc.

Electrics are just taking the spotlight for the moment. Like hydrogen vehicles, or Hybrids; it's the hot thing.

They can't change things because of several things.

1) All electric cars combined make no measurable difference in our oil consumption, and they can't because even if sales could rise to that of a successful midsize they only enter service one model year at a time. The shift won't be significant for many, many years.

2) If production of EVs ever rises to a level that makes a real impact - then our grid can't handle it.

3) There is very little indication that the tech will work in applications beyond smallish cars, we don't function without trucks.

4) Range is inadequate

5) Battery supply is inadequate (as is the supply of the required materials)

+1000

Post of the month for putting it together correctly. Of course, many here will poo-poo it because somehow science will somehow save us... next year... or the year after that. But several of these problems, cannot be fixed... Unless a giant asteroid of copper crashes into Earth, we do not have the copper to upgrade our grid, even if we wanted to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_copper And aluminum is also in short supply, as well.

It doesn't matter. The thing that matters is what the customers want to buy. And hybrids and electrics have not taken off around the world the way some ppl are fantasizing.

I think we have one member here who owns a Volt. Any others? Who has a hybrid or full electric? Come on, talk is cheap, why isn't anyone putting their money down?

In Europe where fuel has been historically high, diesel is the frugal-minded person's power of choice. Not electric or hybrid.

Toyota went in there with the Pruis and was charging 5-series pricing for that crap trap. It is unsurprising to me at all that the Germans took no notice. The only redeeming quality of the Pruis is its powertrain, the rest of the car is crap, handles like crap, drives like crap.

Leafs are still wait listed. So if Leaf sales are pathetic, it is a supply issue and not a demand one.

Wow I go to work and things go crazy here with the fear of fat people in over priced electric cars.

The problem is here that too many think or expect electric cars to come out of the box cheap and able to do anything a gas car can do. The fact is little was invested into much of this since the Detroit or Baker Electic.

I can name cars that were not cheaper than the transportation they replaced, They were not more durible than the transportation they replaced. They had an even more limited range than the transprotation they replaced. They often left their owners standed along the road out of energy or broke down.Many claimed they would never replace the horse but a few people bought them and more people invested in them to the point that they finally became reliable and cheaper.

The Electric car is not a over night deal and it will take time for cheaper prices and longer ranges. This whole thing needs more time and investment and it requires a market to do this. The few buyers that are willing to bite the limited range and high cost bullet will provide the market that will lead to improvments. This is not anything different than the first gas powered auto buyers. If they had not paid the high prices and delt with the issues of the first cars we still would be on horses.

Things will not change over night and electric cars will not be a dominate car for a good while. This whole deal is in flux and will evolve as time goes on. We will see more E assist like hybrids and more of the electric technology adapted to the gas powered cars.

As for the Volt it is the only real electric for the average buyer. Yes there are a few who can live with a all electric but they are few. The only hold up on the Volt for the most part is price and it will come done in time. As they improve the Volt the money invested will also help imporve electric motors and batteries for full electrics.

As with any new technology it will get better and cheaper as time goes on. Much is owed to those who are willing to pay more for th new technology in the early years to create these markets.

It was the first computer buyers who help bring in a change on how we live today with cheaper and better computers. Same for Cell phones and many other products we have today.

So it is important to understand development and the the time it will take for this market to evolve. We must keep this in perspective to understand where this is all going. The short and long of this is electrics will take more time to improve and get cheaper and gas engines will be around for most of our lives and not fully fade away.

As for the other fuels there are issues with each and most have to do with refueling. Few of us are willing to take the time or the effort it takes to fill with Hydrogen or even propane. The fact everyone has an electric outlet in their home is why electric has a open door to all people.

I even put a 220 Outlet near where I part in my new garage that I just built as some day it may need to be used to plug a car in. Till then the welder or plasma cutter will work well with it.

Dare I say I agree with both of you (Camino &hyper) Some good valid points there.

All I can say at this point is that I hope the EV improvements come quickly......

The fact is little was invested into much of this since the Detroit or Baker Electic.

Slurp! Mmmm... Flavor-Aid. I can tell them little was invested since the Baker Electric... even when OcnBlu has posted in another thread the Electrovair II. Sorry, you are full of it, Hyper. There has been billions invested since the Baker Electric... so you think companies like Baker Electric and Detroit Electric didn't invest large sums to try to extend their businesses? GM and Studebaker also had large slices of the electric pie, which I'm sure they would have liked to preserve. Do you think General Electric spent nothing to get all these Deisel Electric trains? GM built the Electrovair I, Electrovair II, an Electric Greenbriar, and a Electrovan, the Urban Electric Car, the 512 series, Electrovette, Sunraycer, EV-1, S-10 Electric. Ford made the Ranger EV. AMC worked on a Lithium-based battery in 1967 and had a NiCd electric '69 Rambler wagon, the Amitron, the Electron. The '50 Henney Kilowatt. The 1980 ComutaCar. Then there are GEM and Zap, who have been been building cars for about 20 years each. Then there is all the forklift and golf cart companies. All the laptop and cellular phone battery research which scales up... Oh... and the Lunar Rover. You're right... little money or effort was put into electric cars since the Baker... yeah.

The Electric car is not a over night deal and it will take time for cheaper prices and longer ranges. This whole thing needs more time and investment and it requires a market to do this. The few buyers that are willing to bite the limited range and high cost bullet will provide the market that will lead to improvments. This is not anything different than the first gas powered auto buyers. If they had not paid the high prices and delt with the issues of the first cars we still would be on horses.

Horses are stubborn and require space and maintenance. Autos surpassed the horse for economics, in reliability and in ease of maintenance in less than 10 years. Electrics have been around for almost 120 years of drivetrain and battery advancements.

As they improve the Volt the money invested will also help imporve electric motors and batteries for full electrics.

----

As with any new technology it will get better and cheaper as time goes on. Much is owed to those who are willing to pay more for th new technology in the early years to create these markets.

Sure... to the tune of 5-15% improvement per decade, its going to be a slow trip.

Using this logic, regular gasoline powered cars should get cheaper. They don't.

As for the other fuels there are issues with each and most have to do with refueling. Few of us are willing to take the time or the effort it takes to fill with Hydrogen or even propane. The fact everyone has an electric outlet in their home is why electric has a open door to all people.

Effort? It takes about twice as long to fuel with CNG as gasoline. BFD.

Hydrogen does have some issues filling, storage and combustion... but with CNG being created at every landfill and working as a retrofit on every gasoline engine ever made, I don't see why anyone invests in hydrogen.

I even put a 220 Outlet near where I part in my new garage that I just built as some day it may need to be used to plug a car in. Till then the welder or plasma cutter will work well with it.

Great. Let me know when you put a 1000 Amp outlet in so that you can refill at something closer to the rate of the CNG.

You are going to argue a point on Horses here and try to make a point with the Electrovair II LOL! You have got to better than that.

I stand by my post..

This is not a horses vs. cars situation.

And it will never be.

Until the fuel cell makes it so.

Full electrics cannot become factor until then.

Panic brings electrics into fashion from time to time, but they have no staying power without the fuel cell.

Batteries are never going to cut it.

Electrics are a dead-end until they can generate their own power on-board.

Think of the Volt as proto-fuel cell, and you will get where I stand on this.

We need simpler, more immediate, solutions.

Battery development is not at a standstill. Electric motor development is not at a stand still.

You guys want range? The 640hp AWD electric mini-cooper has a range of 200 - 250 miles. Or... roughly Pittsburgh to D.C.

If they made it just FWD *cough* sorry, if they made it just RWD and 320hp, and only increased the range to 350miles, that would still be a longer cruising range than I have on my Toronado or CR-V or my old CTS.

I realize it is just a concept, but it is also proof of concept.

Another electric toy doesn't address the larger problems.

These cars have to charge themselves before they will matter.

Meanwhile, we need to move on to things we can do right now.

If we could convert say 15% of our existing fleet to CNG, and another 15% to ethanol, we could buy decades of time for fuel cell development and not get caught with our pants down again.

And ethanol is a renewable resource which could provide us with a domestic supply of fuel all on its own for an indefinite time.

I prefer gaseous fuels, but both ethanol and CNG could get us off of oil right now if we decide to make it happen.

I'd be far more charitable toward R&D on electrics and fuel cells if we were using what we have at hand to get the problem under control today.

It's a sin that GM has built over 5 million FFVs and we have no fuel to use in them. That's where our immediate focus should be.

Well, aside from the fact that that Mini does recharge itself, since when do gasoline cars refill themselves?