Sales of Chevrolet Bolts Rise Due To Model 3 Delays, Tax Credit Concerns

Wonder if we'll ever hear any more updates on new reservations vs. cancellations.

Tesla is really good at designing cars, really good at marketing cars, terrible at producing cars.  And this is Tesla's chance to cash in, they need to get that production line at full speed, before everyone else enters the market. 

Any more delays past June and I think Tesla will have officially shot themselves in the foot long term.

Benefit is that Chevy is going to win over some skeptics who will find the BOLT to be every bit as good if not better than the Tesla 3.

Tesla's 'worn soap' look is already long in the tooth from the Model S, by the time the Model 3 fills 20% of it's pre-orders, the design will be a decade old.

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

Tesla's 'worn soap' look is already long in the tooth from the Model S, by the time the Model 3 fills 20% of it's pre-orders, the design will be a decade old.

So totally agree and perfect analogy, a worn bar of soap is exactly what the car looks like. Tesla is a patent / powertrain win for who ever eventually buys them, right now their best bet is what they have started to do which is sell the Powertrain via EV conversion shops like EV West who will sell and install it for you into your auto or just sell you the package for doing it yourself.

Took a look @ EV West's site; they'll ell you a single Model S motor, 275-400 KW, plus some support pieces for $12,000. Add an LSD and you're at $15K.

For some reason, this electric motor only has a 1 year warranty- would've expected with the relative simplicity vs. IC, it would be at least double the OEM IC warranty. Didn't see a range of installation prices. So far, their conversion kits are only made for penalty-box Euro vehicles tho.

Not looking like a sound financial deal, IMO.

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

Took a look @ EV West's site; they'll ell you a single Model S motor, 275-400 KW, plus some support pieces for $12,000. Add an LSD and you're at $15K.

For some reason, this electric motor only has a 1 year warranty- would've expected with the relative simplicity vs. IC, it would be at least double the OEM IC warranty. Didn't see a range of installation prices. So far, their conversion kits are only made for penalty-box Euro vehicles tho.

Not looking like a sound financial deal, IMO.

I called them as every auto and the size of the battery (Most expensive component) makes every conversion a custom quote. 

I agree with you that the 1yr warranty is weird and I would have expected longer too from Tesla, but at least they are trying.

I wonder when GM or Toyota will offer EV powertrain kits on their crate sales site.

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is really good at designing cars, really good at marketing cars, terrible at producing cars.  And this is Tesla's chance to cash in, they need to get that production line at full speed, before everyone else enters the market. 

Small problem: execution and product availability are everything in this business.  Elon Musk and his crew have clearly underachieved on this one.  Seems like no one can actually get their hands on a Tesla model 3.  Pitiful.

22 hours ago, dfelt said:

Any more delays past June and I think Tesla will have officially shot themselves in the foot long term.

Benefit is that Chevy is going to win over some skeptics who will find the BOLT to be every bit as good if not better than the Tesla 3.

But the Bolt is small, for people that only want an EV no matter what, then it is fine.  But if I were in the market for a mid-size sedan or RAV4 sized crossover or 3 row crossover, as most shoppers are, then I would not be looking at a Bolt.  The Bolt isn't as fast as a Model 3 either.  Now if they make a 220 mile range EV Malibu or Equinox for $37k, then game on.

59 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Small problem: execution and product availability are everything in this business.  Elon Musk and his crew have clearly underachieved on this one.  Seems like no one can actually get their hands on a Tesla model 3.  Pitiful.

Right, I could make a flying car that ran on cheez wiz and if there was only one of them hand built in my garage it wouldn't do any good.  Tesla needs to figure out how to get the stuff they design to actual buyers.

the market needs a mid size or large car at a palatable price.  by that, I mean something not as small as Bolt / Volt.

'The Bolt's not large enough for people looking for a mid-size car.'
Model 3 interior volume: 97 CF.
Bolt EV interior volume: 95 CF.
At least the Bolt has a cargo opening you can fit more than a shoebox through.

The industry has been moving to smaller & smaller vehicles on the whole. Though it doesn't suit my preferences, large cars (or what is so labeled these days) are on the way out (I buy trucks, anyway). Model 3 sedan unfortunately will be born into a rapidly shrinking segment, whereas the much more practical Bolt is in the growing segment. Model 3 should have been the Model Y first.

What is the legroom, shoulder room, hip room on a Bolt?  I have sat in the Bolt, it has head room because it is sort of tall and there is knee room because the center console is small and mostly open, so those are pluses.  But the Bolt is still too little of a car for me to consider, the Volt actually has less space for the driver, despite being larger.

Look at the sales of 3 row crossovers, the largest growth segment in the industry.  Look at Camry and Accord sales, pick up truck sales, etc.  Then look at Fiat and Mini sales, because the Bolt is Mini Cooper sized. 

@smk4565 Right from their website: 

Bolt has more front & rear legroom than an E-class sedan! Then again, perhaps MB-s mediocre packaging isn't a fair comparison.

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Bolt has more front & rear legroom than an E-class sedan! Then again, perhaps MB-s mediocre packaging isn't a fair comparison.

I can't imagine someone buying a Bolt over an E-class, though.   Different niches.   Commuter econobox vs. a midsize luxury sedan...

25 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I can't imagine someone buying a Bolt over an E-class, though.   Different niches.   Commuter econobox vs. a midsize luxury sedan...

Go test drive one, the closing of the door on the Bolt is like a vault compared to the tin can close of the E-Class. Chevy did a very nice job on the Bolt and you get allot of CUV for the money I think. The one thing I hear over and over is how solid the BOLT is by people that check it out compared to higher end luxury auto's.

No Chevy has doors more solid than a German car, the only think worse is a a Toyota door.  And the Bolt is slow and what about skidpad and grip?  The Model 3 can out perform an ATS, for ATS money, the Bolt can not. 

I am pro Electric  vehicles, but I am not interested in econoboxes. Neither are most people.  The Malibu, Implala, Tahoe, Camaro, Traverse and Equinox all outsell the Bolt.  This tells me people don’t want a subcompact car, because they want a Chevy, just not a small Chevy.

35 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

No Chevy has doors more solid than a German car, the only think worse is a a Toyota door.  And the Bolt is slow and what about skidpad and grip?  The Model 3 can out perform an ATS, for ATS money, the Bolt can not. 

I am pro Electric  vehicles, but I am not interested in econoboxes. Neither are most people.  The Malibu, Implala, Tahoe, Camaro, Traverse and Equinox all outsell the Bolt.  This tells me people don’t want a subcompact car, because they want a Chevy, just not a small Chevy.

The Bolt is a novelty econobox--for city commuters that want something with a small footprint for tight parking spaces, I suppose. 

The Bolt is a good small car.  My question is this: where are the EV Equinox and EV Trax?  Better still, where are the EV Cadillac XT5 and XT4?  GM needs to build those too, because Tesla either cannot or will not build them.

1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

The Bolt is a novelty econobox--for city commuters that want something with a small footprint for tight parking spaces, I suppose. 

That's what Daimler expressly said about the smart, yet I see them (not many, admittedly) out in rural areas and jockeying on the Turnpike with semis.
Bolt is a compact mini-wagon, basically a low CUV. It's sales are impressive within it's segment (EVs), but not so much relative to ICE vehicles... but that's a factor of a notably higher price and the uphill battle EVs are working against. I suppose one could call the entire EV genre a 'novelty' based on market performance, but I don't think one should look upon it as a 'fad'. Will be interesting to watch it's 2018 sales chart performance.

Meanwhile, General Motors is supposed to bring how many EVs online by 2021?
Would be interesting to see an XT4 EV powertrain option (as long as there are also ICEs).

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

No Chevy has doors more solid than a German car, the only think worse is a a Toyota door.  And the Bolt is slow and what about skidpad and grip?  The Model 3 can out perform an ATS, for ATS money, the Bolt can not. 

I am pro Electric  vehicles, but I am not interested in econoboxes. Neither are most people.  The Malibu, Implala, Tahoe, Camaro, Traverse and Equinox all outsell the Bolt.  This tells me people don’t want a subcompact car, because they want a Chevy, just not a small Chevy.

Your post tells me you have never actually looked at one, been in one or test drove one. 0 to 60 in 6.5 seconds is nothing to sneeze at and when you put it in sport mode it drops a full second to 5.5 seconds. BOLT is faster than most ICE Cars out there today.

More usable space than a Tesla 3, there has been no official testing of a Tesla 3 so trying to compare it to an ATS or better than anything else is Vapor Speech.

People who say it is a stripped down Econobox, needs to first go and record themselves in the actual car. It is a very nice car with triple door seals and yes closes better than than most German cars including the E-Class.

Your snob attitude tells me you have not set foot on a chevy dealership at least since the BOLT came out as you think you and your E-Class is too good to even go and be a TRUE CAR ENTHUSIAST and check the BOLT out.

I challenge you SMK to go onto the lot, record yourself checking out a BOLT and post the Pictures / Video to everyone and then if you still want to say it is garbage, your right.

Right now, the BOLT is way better than allot of cars / CUVs out there.

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

The Bolt is a good small car.  My question is this: where are the EV Equinox and EV Trax?  Better still, where are the EV Cadillac XT5 and XT4?  GM needs to build those too, because Tesla either cannot or will not build them.

They are coming, GM CEO is on record by her own words that 2 CUV's will be coming for sale at 2020 models in late 2019 and by 2021 Generation 2 platform for the BOLT will spane 7 more EV's plus be used for plug in Hybrids using the VOLT type powertrain for a total of 11 EV/Hybrid auto's.

Forgot that in October, CEO Barra stated that the updated plan is to have 20 EV auto's out in the next 6 years of which the first two as I stated above will be based on the BOLT Generation 1 platform out late 2019 as 2020 models and then 18 based on Generation 2 platform covering global sales and all 4 family brands.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/02/gm-to-ramp-up-electric-vehicle-plans-with-20-models-over-next-6-years.html

Here was the official GM release about 20 EV auto's and a global push for Zero Emission family of auto's for the planet.

http://www.gm.com/mol/m-2017-oct-1002-electric.html

40 minutes ago, dfelt said:

They are coming, GM CEO is on record by her own words that 2 CUV's will be coming for sale at 2020 models in late 2019 and by 2021 Generation 2 platform for the BOLT will spane 7 more EV's plus be used for plug in Hybrids using the VOLT type powertrain for a total of 11 EV/Hybrid auto's.

 

Forgot that in October, CEO Barra stated that the updated plan is to have 20 EV auto's out in the next 6 years of which the first two as I stated above will be based on the BOLT Generation 1 platform out late 2019 as 2020 models and then 18 based on Generation 2 platform covering global sales and all 4 family brands.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/02/gm-to-ramp-up-electric-vehicle-plans-with-20-models-over-next-6-years.html

Here was the official GM release about 20 EV auto's and a global push for Zero Emission family of auto's for the planet.

http://www.gm.com/mol/m-2017-oct-1002-electric.html

MY 2020 and 2021 are not far off, so I would think we should be see some of these at shows in the next 12-18 months...going to be interesting to see.   

46 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Your post tells me you have never actually looked at one, been in one or test drove one. 0 to 60 in 6.5 seconds is nothing to sneeze at and when you put it in sport mode it drops a full second to 5.5 seconds. BOLT is faster than most ICE Cars out there today.

More usable space than a Tesla 3, there has been no official testing of a Tesla 3 so trying to compare it to an ATS or better than anything else is Vapor Speech.

People who say it is a stripped down Econobox, needs to first go and record themselves in the actual car. It is a very nice car with triple door seals and yes closes better than than most German cars including the E-Class.

Your snob attitude tells me you have not set foot on a chevy dealership at least since the BOLT came out as you think you and your E-Class is too good to even go and be a TRUE CAR ENTHUSIAST and check the BOLT out.

I challenge you SMK to go onto the lot, record yourself checking out a BOLT and post the Pictures / Video to everyone and then if you still want to say it is garbage, your right.

Right now, the BOLT is way better than allot of cars / CUVs out there.

I sat in a Bolt yesterday, the majority of the interior is plastic, like most Chevrolet product.  My car does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, anything slower than that I am not interested in.

If the Bolt were better than a lot of CUVs (which it isn't a CUV, but whatever), then the Equinox, Traverse, Acadia, Envision, XT5, Terrain, etc wouldn't all outsell it.   The Tesla Model S actually outsells most of its gasoline competition.  

How often do you take your car to the drag strip? What brand of slicks do you prefer?

Quote

The Tesla Model S actually outsells most of its gasoline competition.

If the Model S is so good, why were it's sales down 4% in '17 vs. '16?
Bolt would have outsold the Model S to be the #1 EV in '17 if Tesla hadn't pulled it's usual game for December and pulled ahead January sales (4,975 in Dec vs. 800 in Jan).

18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

How often do you take your car to the drag strip? What brand of slicks do you prefer?

If the Model S is so good, why were it's sales down 4% in '17 vs. '16?
Bolt would have outsold the Model S to be the #1 EV in '17 if Tesla hadn't pulled it's usual game for December and pulled ahead January sales (4,975 in Dec vs. 800 in Jan).

The Bolt isn't $100,000 either.  And the Bolt isn't faster than a Z06 Corvette, or Audi R8 V10+  The best comparison for the Bolt is the Leaf or maybe BMW i3, those are closer in size, price and amenities.  

The Leaf is probably the closest competitor to the Bolt..very similar styling also. 

• What happened to the Leaf tho? It was selling in the 1100-1400/mnth range but since October, it barely finds 150 takers/mnth.  It's dead in the  water...

• Bolt isn't $100K, but it's certainly more than the average IC hatch in it's size class. Don't pretend that's not a factor in not outselling other similar (gas) vehicles.

• Question is still on the table- why did the Model S sales drop in '17? It certainly wasn't cannibalization from the Model 3. And if you use a more 'natural' December volume, it was down around 8%.

13 minutes ago, balthazar said:

• What happened to the Leaf tho? It was selling in the 1100-1400/mnth range but since October, it barely finds 150 takers/mnth.  It's dead in the  water...

• Bolt isn't $100K, but it's certainly more than the average IC hatch in it's size class. Don't pretend that's not a factor in not outselling other similar (gas) vehicles.

• Question is still on the table- why did the Model S sales drop in '17? It certainly wasn't cannibalization from the Model 3. And if you use a more 'natural' December volume, it was down around 8%.

Don't know what is up w the Leaf.  Maybe the more mainstream styling is turning off people that liked the toad face of the original.    As for the Model S, it is getting a bit old-6th model year now---and they dropped the cheapest version, and maybe the Model X is stealing some sales? 

Sales are down because fads are shortlived, by definition.  I am left wondering who is going to buy all these electrics GM is planning on?  Because they're not born yet, based on current electric car sales performance.

I don't think styling is playing a part. Leaf was redone in fall '17, no? I was expecting it to see a solid rise in sales... maybe the Bolt is taking Leaf intenders away.

Don't think SUV people are going to cross-shop sedans much. Model S is due for a redesign.

If tax credit concerns are in any way a factor in this, then that tells me that demand is not genuine, it is propped up.

@Cubical-aka-Moltar @balthazar I expected Leaf sales to tank and they have based on the fact that they have Leaf 2.0 out but not the long rang battery option yet so you have 110 miles in a Leaf 2.0 or 238 miles in a Bolt. Bolt wins and I am seeing those that leased Leafs here at work trading in their leafs for bolts. 

Bolt sold 1,177 in Jan up from Jan 2017

Leaf sold 150 in Jan down 80% from Jan 2017 I believe due to the new model out but not with the long range battery pack yet.

i3 sold 382 the exact same number as in 2017. Like the leaf you have just over 100 miles range ev and people are not willing to pay the BMW premium for it. They would if it had a real battery pack like the bolt.

Bolt is clearly eating the others lunch and yet this time next year as we see more EV's with the supposedly 300 mile battery packs hit the lots, it will be interesting to see what goes down in sales numbers.

3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

If tax credit concerns are in any way a factor in this, then that tells me that demand is not genuine, it is propped up.

For some the tax credit is a driving force but for many, the wait for something they like better from a different name brand with a 300 mile range is where we will finally see a difference in sales and I expect a big drop in ICE over EV's once all the various brands start to put them on the lots for sale.

Most people hate oil changes, hate filling up gas, hate all the maintenance around an ICE auto. EV's will change that in many ways and the public is waiting for choice that is better than we have now.

I was surprised to see the Bolt down in Jan vs. Dec tho. But Jan was a rough sales month for everything.

So the Leaf was all new, but the lack of a reserve upgrade is rendering it a has-been. Interesting indicator that EV performance is what's driving the consumers on EVs, not the usual factors.

49 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I was surprised to see the Bolt down in Jan vs. Dec tho. But Jan was a rough sales month for everything.

So the Leaf was all new, but the lack of a reserve upgrade is rendering it a has-been. Interesting indicator that EV performance is what's driving the consumers on EVs, not the usual factors.

Plenty of news stories on the Leaf with plenty of comments by people that they want a new leaf with long range battery and are holding off. Clearly Nissan was scared by GM due to the BOLT 238 miles range and pushed out Leaf 2.0 before they had the bigger battery packs ready.

Customers are seeing all the news by the various auto companies about 300 mile range EV auto's out in 2019 as 2020 models. I truly think 2018 is going to be a hard year for auto sales due to people holding out for the EV's. 

People have stated they like the idea of home refueling, they like the minimal maintenance of ev auto's, they want more choice and as such seem to be willing to wait to get what they want I believe.

In regards to the BOLT, I agree that it was surprising to see the drop in sales, but still the leader and I think that will pick up as California Chevy dealers are reporting more and more Tesla 3 folks are coming in to buy rather than wait for Tesla and loose their rebates.

43 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I truly think 2018 is going to be a hard year for auto sales due to people holding out for the EV's. 

I don't think 2018 will be a good year for sales as the last year or two was just too high to sustain but I don't think that is the reason. 

31 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think 2018 will be a good year for sales as the last year or two was just too high to sustain but I don't think that is the reason. 

Your right I should have geographically stated, west coast as I know many are waiting to trade in their auto for an EV.

How many is "many" that you personally know that are waiting to trade in their vehicle for an EV? 

Personally, I've only met a few people who want an EV and they're mostly just Tesla fans and one person who owns a Leaf. They absolutely love their Leaf, fwiw. 

41 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

How many is "many" that you personally know that are waiting to trade in their vehicle for an EV? 

Personally, I've only met a few people who want an EV and they're mostly just Tesla fans and one person who owns a Leaf. They absolutely love their Leaf, fwiw. 

I work in an office of 1200 teammates and easily a couple dozen and probably more. Remember, Seattle is a High tech growth hub and a very green state as 92% plus of all our power is Green produced.

Web Site for state checking of Green energy production

Profile of Washington State Power Production web site

As the link above will show, our state is very focused on removing fossil fuels from the everyday road and using as much as possible green sustainable power.

Washington and Oregon adopted California auto laws and emission standards so both states follow CARB and as such you will find allot of Tree Huggers that want EVs here.

I wish IL would push for that more than they do..which is almost none at all. 

A guy I worked with in Phoenix was very interested in getting a Model 3, gave up and bought a Bolt.  Already has a Volt.  Other than that, most of my office colleagues in Scottsdale drive CUVs/SUVs, trucks and Asian sedans.   I did work with one exec that had a Model S, but she traded it on a Continental. 

No idea what the EV market is like in NE Ohio..I've seen a few Teslas, loads of Hondas, Kias, Hyundais...higher percentage of domestic cars than in Phoenix I would say, the usual German luxury models in upscale areas,  lots of SUVs and trucks. 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I wish IL would push for that more than they do..which is almost none at all. 

According to the web site at least your state while ranked 34 in Green energy production is making 11.52% from renewable sources.

44 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

A guy I worked with in Phoenix was very interested in getting a Model 3, gave up and bought a Bolt.  Already has a Volt.  Other than that, most of my office colleagues in Scottsdale drive CUVs/SUVs, trucks and Asian sedans.   I did work with one exec that had a Model S, but she traded it on a Continental. 

No idea what the EV market is like in NE Ohio..I've seen a few Teslas, loads of Hondas, Kias, Hyundais...higher percentage of domestic cars than in Phoenix I would say, the usual German luxury models in upscale areas,  lots of SUVs and trucks. 

Ohio is 9.15% renewable production of power. ranked 38th in the US for green energy production.

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

According to the web site at least your state while ranked 34 in Green energy production is making 11.52% from renewable sources.

Ohio is 9.15% renewable production of power. ranked 38th in the US for green energy production.

Got a ways to go..I know the old coal plants along the North Coast have closed, mostly nuclear around here. 

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Seattle is a High tech growth hub and a very green state as 92% plus of all our power is Green produced.

Might want to check this source. As of 2012-14, fully 51% came from nuclear, coal & NG. I doubt the state has gone from 51% non-renewable to 0.2% in 3 years. Metric needs to be clarified.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Might want to check this source. As of 2012-14, fully 51% came from nuclear, coal & NG. I doubt the state has gone from 51% non-renewable to 0.2% in 3 years. Metric needs to be clarified.

Wiki is very questionable but I would guess about as good as our own gov web site that I posted. Oregon has a very green gov and if you had checked the 2nd link and changed from Washington to Oregon you would find that as of 2016 they have ZERO Coal power production plants. Natural Gas, 1 nuclear plant and 2 petro plants otherwise all wind, Solar, Hydro and BioMass power plants.

https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=OR

They are very green state. Yes in 3yrs time, you can convert over from dirty greenhouse gas production electric plants to green production plants and the PNW aka Oregon and Washington has made that massive transition. Yes we pay for it as Oregon has a high Income tax, but no sales tax. Washington has no income tax but high Sales Tax. Seems to work for us.

Also back in the late 90's both states had voter approved to wind down and replace all nuclear plants by 2020. Both states each have 1 plant that will be decommissioned in 2020 as they retire nuclear totally. I will have to look for it, but all petro / NG plants will be converted over to BioMass power generation plants. The goal was by 2025 or 2030 both states are to be 100% renewable electric production.

6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

How many is "many" that you personally know that are waiting to trade in their vehicle for an EV? 

Personally, I've only met a few people who want an EV and they're mostly just Tesla fans and one person who owns a Leaf. They absolutely love their Leaf, fwiw. 

Not a Tesla fan but not a hater either.  I'd like to see them succeed but they need to get their crap together on the quality front before that can happen in the mainstream market.  The one thing they have going for them is there probably aren't too many walk home issues which means most of their quality issues are more of an annoyance than anything.

I have always been a big HP ICE guy but at the same time, I like to try different stuff.  I would seriously consider a Bolt.  I checked one out at NAIAS and didn't think it was too bad.  In fact, I will probably even test drive one within the next few months.  Free recharging at work means no fuel bill for me. That said, the current plan is a good deal on a used CTS-V Sport that I will drive for a year or so and then strongly consider switching over to a Volt or Bolt, but only if the price is right.  I'm definitely not an early adopter that will spend whatever to be the first on the block with one. I did, however, by a Cruze diesel just because I had never owned a diesel before. haha

All I know, is that I have seen two truckloads of Bolts here in the last two weeks...

Sales are picking up!!!