Rumorpile: Chevrolet Ponders An Expansion of the Corvette

Model Y & Mach-E GT are both supposed to do 0-60 in 3.5 secs. But here's the deal:

1. both are plenty quick enough,
2. NOBODY is drag racing these against each other for prize money, and
3. the quickest vehicle in a given segment is almost never the highest sought-after.

In other words; a few tenths is meaningless unless it's a competition vehicle (which these aren't).

Tesla's biggest problem is stale styling and over-pricing (the company still loses money selling cars). They can charge whatever until competition starts heating up, then the probability they're F'd rises quick. There's a LOT more Ford buyers out there than Tesla buyers.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Model Y & Mach-E GT are both supposed to do 0-60 in 3.5 secs. But here's the deal:

1. both are plenty quick enough,
2. NOBODY is drag racing these against each other for prize money, and
3. the quickest vehicle in a given segment is almost never the highest sought-after.

In other words; a few tenths is meaningless unless it's a competition vehicle (which these aren't).

Tesla's biggest problem is stale styling and over-pricing (the company still loses money selling cars). They can charge whatever until competition starts heating up, then the probability they're F'd rises quick. There's a LOT more Ford buyers out there than Tesla buyers.

The performance specs are very  close but range isn’t.  And Tesla’s are very competitively priced compared to other EV’s of similar performance/features.  And I think the Mustang Mach E turned out really well even though the name is dumb.
 

Making money doesn’t seem to matter for Tesla.  Tesla is worth $802 billion and Ford is worth $45 billion.  No matter how many F150’s Ford sells, investors will still put their money on Tesla.  Right or wrong that is just how it is. 

You realize that that money Tesla is 'worth' is all borrowed, right?
Stock revenue is not something a company is supposed to survive off of.
Tesla still, I believe, loses money on every car they sell.

And a company's worth is far more than just it's stock price.

Tesla failed to take a big enough bite out of the market in order to gain & maintain a lead.

It's GM Marketing and top brass salivating at the chance to capitalize on the Corvette name...again. The Chevrolet Corvette is a classic two door premium sports car that sits low to the ground with a front or modern day mid-engine setup and that's how it should stay. The 1,000 hp Super-car Corvette Zora coming in a few years with a high winding 850hp 5.5TT V8 thundering away pushing behind the driver and passenger is the propulsion and sound it always needs, the 150 hp electric motor pulling in front is all the electric propulsion it should have. BEV's have their place, but we need to keep the sweet sounding V8 and only two doors while sitting low to the ground in a Corvette.

Emissions standards all over the world after 2030 or 2035 say otherwise for ANY internal combustion  engine. 

Im all for the Corvette to retain its V8 engine as long as its possible. Until its V8 cant pass emissions any longer. If by any chance, ICE engineers can somehow engineer a V8 (not JUST any ICE like a 4 banger, but a V8... Corvette, right?)  to pass the inevitable highly impossible emissions, then Ill be ecstatic about a V8 Corvette in a EV world. But lets not kid ourselves here....  Pie in the sky scenarios aside, I hope we all understand that the world no longer wants the ICE.  I hope we could understand that BEVs are what is next in our future for our personal transportational needs.  Be it in 2035 or 2055....its coming...

Especially when GM has said to have stopped working on new generation internal combustion engines.  

Oh...they will updated this new LT2 in the coming decade, but as is, this engine will never pass the impossibly high emissions to come in 2030 or 2035. And seeing that development money is zero for a next gen Chevy small block, this would be the last gen V8 GM will produce. 

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

the world no longer wants the ICE

flat wrong

On 1/15/2021 at 8:30 PM, smk4565 said:

A Corvette SUV is a horrible idea, they shouldn't do it. However I think GM will do it.

The "Corvette" name still means something because it hasn't been watered down or trashed.  If GM wants to make a high performance electric crossover, I'd say that is what Cadillac is for.

This goes to a greater problem with how trash the brand image of Ford and Chevrolet are, why they have to call everything Corvette or Mustang, why the Bronco doesn't say Ford on it, etc.  Compared to say Tesla, where the brand matters more than the model.  Ask a Corvette owner what kind of car they drive, they'll say Corvette, not Chevy, ask a Model S owner and they'll say Tesla.  GM needs to make the Chevy brand cool, not trash the Corvette name with SUVs.

I agree with you that GM should not make an SUV model with the Chevy Corvette name, but you can't compare a model like the Model S that's only been around since 2012 to a legendary model like the Corvette that's been around since 1953, not even in the same league. 

It's comes down to uniqueness and notoriety, Model S is a bland generic model name that doesn't resonate with people, so Tesla has to be mentioned with the model and people know all Tesla's are EV's so there's no need to elaborate. Chevrolet is a storied brand where Tesla has a lot of catching up to do. It has nothing to do with a "trash image" with not mentioning Chevrolet with Corvette, it's just implied and doesn't need to be mentioned as they are both well know very unique names that need no introduction. It's the same with the Silverado name even though only a model name since the 1999 redesign it was a trim name in the SB trucks of the 70's and 80's so it's known that it's a Chevrolet pickup. Even the Cadillac Escalade has a very strong model branding that can be mentioned with or without Cadillac, has nothing to do with the image of Cadillac, people just know because both are a storied brand name and model, unlike Tesla's models with zero unique qualities.

BTW, I am a Corvette owner and I say it's a Chevy Corvette or C5 Chevy Corvette or if talking to a fellow Corvette owner only C5 Coupe needs to be brought up, it has absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to bring up the Chevrolet or Chevy name or it not being thought of as a great storied brand name. How many songs have been written about Tesla? Zero. Chevrolet on the other hand? Several.  

Also, Tesla only has 4 or 5 models so saying Tesla is easier for owners when the actual models have very little notoriety and zero uniqueness. If you only say Chevrolet they will say oh which one a car, truck or SUV? (of 18 -20 models currently on sale including commercial vans and medium duty trucks) MUCH larger company. And as far as Tesla's Stock or company value it's VERY over valued, anyone in the stock market knows it's majorly bloated. 

Chevrolet to Tesla is Apples to Oranges. Or maybe Apple Pies to Creamsicles?   

On 1/22/2021 at 5:45 PM, smk4565 said:

But what is next for Ford also?  If the Mustang Mach-E is the top performance Ford EV, do they just go down from there?  The Model Y is the slowest Tesla.  For Ford I think electric F150 is key to get that market locked down before the Cybertruck takes it over.

There is nothing stopping them from adding a sedan or larger SUV. I know they're not in the sedan/car market anymore but if the market shifts again, these EV skateboard platforms can just change the body to a car. 

We don't even know what a "real" Cybertruck will look like because everybody with a brain knows what they showed off will need drastic changes to even be street legal. 

On 1/22/2021 at 9:56 PM, balthazar said:

Model Y & Mach-E GT are both supposed to do 0-60 in 3.5 secs. But here's the deal:

1. both are plenty quick enough,
2. NOBODY is drag racing these against each other for prize money, and
3. the quickest vehicle in a given segment is almost never the highest sought-after.

In other words; a few tenths is meaningless unless it's a competition vehicle (which these aren't).

Tesla's biggest problem is stale styling and over-pricing (the company still loses money selling cars). They can charge whatever until competition starts heating up, then the probability they're F'd rises quick. There's a LOT more Ford buyers out there than Tesla buyers.

Plus Ford has a lot more plants, and can build automobiles that hold up over hundreds of thousands of miles without the issues Teslas have.  And they ahve the dealership network, and more engeneerring budget. 

5 hours ago, ccap41 said:

There is nothing stopping them from adding a sedan or larger SUV. I know they're not in the sedan/car market anymore but if the market shifts again, these EV skateboard platforms can just change the body to a car. 

We don't even know what a "real" Cybertruck will look like because everybody with a brain knows what they showed off will need drastic changes to even be street legal. 

Cybertruck and F150 will fill different market segments, but my money is on Ford here. 

On 1/24/2021 at 2:22 PM, ocnblu said:

flat wrong

They want both. The Free market should provide both.

On 1/23/2021 at 1:57 AM, balthazar said:

You realize that that money Tesla is 'worth' is all borrowed, right?
Stock revenue is not something a company is supposed to survive off of.
Tesla still, I believe, loses money on every car they sell.

And a company's worth is far more than just it's stock price.

Tesla failed to take a big enough bite out of the market in order to gain & maintain a lead.

Ford valuation is up quite a bit.

On 1/24/2021 at 1:04 PM, oldshurst442 said:

Emissions standards all over the world after 2030 or 2035 say otherwise for ANY internal combustion  engine. 

Im all for the Corvette to retain its V8 engine as long as its possible. Until its V8 cant pass emissions any longer. If by any chance, ICE engineers can somehow engineer a V8 (not JUST any ICE like a 4 banger, but a V8... Corvette, right?)  to pass the inevitable highly impossible emissions, then Ill be ecstatic about a V8 Corvette in a EV world. But lets not kid ourselves here....  Pie in the sky scenarios aside, I hope we all understand that the world no longer wants the ICE.  I hope we could understand that BEVs are what is next in our future for our personal transportational needs.  Be it in 2035 or 2055....its coming...

Especially when GM has said to have stopped working on new generation internal combustion engines.  

Oh...they will updated this new LT2 in the coming decade, but as is, this engine will never pass the impossibly high emissions to come in 2030 or 2035. And seeing that development money is zero for a next gen Chevy small block, this would be the last gen V8 GM will produce. 

 

The Camaro V8 couldn't pass Euro emissions, I think the Corvette was reworked to pass it, but yes, it will only get tougher or ICE powertrains could just be banned in 2035.  It is nice to let the V8 run out it's life cycle, but that isn't the future, so it isn't where companies will put their engineering dollars. 

But I think they can make an electric Corvette that is faster than the V8 Corvette, so I don't see losing the V8 as anything that hurts.  It is just evolution, most family sedans had a 3-3.8 liter V6 15 years ago, now most have a 2 liter 4-cylinder and are faster.  It's just progress.

On 1/24/2021 at 2:22 PM, USA-1 said:

I agree with you that GM should not make an SUV model with the Chevy Corvette name, but you can't compare a model like the Model S that's only been around since 2012 to a legendary model like the Corvette that's been around since 1953, not even in the same league. 

It's comes down to uniqueness and notoriety, Model S is a bland generic model name that doesn't resonate with people, so Tesla has to be mentioned with the model and people know all Tesla's are EV's so there's no need to elaborate. Chevrolet is a storied brand where Tesla has a lot of catching up to do. It has nothing to do with a "trash image" with not mentioning Chevrolet with Corvette, it's just implied and doesn't need to be mentioned as they are both well know very unique names that need no introduction. It's the same with the Silverado name even though only a model name since the 1999 redesign it was a trim name in the SB trucks of the 70's and 80's so it's known that it's a Chevrolet pickup. Even the Cadillac Escalade has a very strong model branding that can be mentioned with or without Cadillac, has nothing to do with the image of Cadillac, people just know because both are a storied brand name and model, unlike Tesla's models with zero unique qualities.

BTW, I am a Corvette owner and I say it's a Chevy Corvette or C5 Chevy Corvette or if talking to a fellow Corvette owner only C5 Coupe needs to be brought up, it has absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to bring up the Chevrolet or Chevy name or it not being thought of as a great storied brand name. How many songs have been written about Tesla? Zero. Chevrolet on the other hand? Several.  

Also, Tesla only has 4 or 5 models so saying Tesla is easier for owners when the actual models have very little notoriety and zero uniqueness. If you only say Chevrolet they will say oh which one a car, truck or SUV? (of 18 -20 models currently on sale including commercial vans and medium duty trucks) MUCH larger company. And as far as Tesla's Stock or company value it's VERY over valued, anyone in the stock market knows it's majorly bloated. 

Chevrolet to Tesla is Apples to Oranges. Or maybe Apple Pies to Creamsicles?   

Tesla is probably the coolest, most desired, or hottest brand name in cars.  Tesla is the "it" brand.  They don't even advertise and yet everyone talks about them.  That's what I am comparing, no brand name carries the impact of the Tesla brand name.  

9 hours ago, ccap41 said:

There is nothing stopping them from adding a sedan or larger SUV. I know they're not in the sedan/car market anymore but if the market shifts again, these EV skateboard platforms can just change the body to a car. 

We don't even know what a "real" Cybertruck will look like because everybody with a brain knows what they showed off will need drastic changes to even be street legal. 

Right, Ford could do lots of things, they will need an EV cheaper than the Mach-E that can start under $30k at some point.  And they can do mid-size and larger SUVs that aren't performance oriented.  I get that most of the market is not about performance cars, that is why the Rav4/Camry are top sellers in the 2 biggest segments.  So Ford can look at more practical EV's that aren't just about performance.  But when you use the Mustang name, you position the Mach-E as your top performance EV, now maybe they have a faster version coming, like a Mustang Mach-E Cobra R or Shelby GT, only time will tell.   But Tesla has a 1,100 hp car going on sale this year, so we are entering a world where the Hellcat V8 is weak and obsolete as far as performance goes.  Companies are going to have to hop on board the EV train for performance cars in a hurry.

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is probably the coolest, most desired, or hottest brand name in cars.  Tesla is the "it" brand.  They don't even advertise and yet everyone talks about them.  That's what I am comparing, no brand name carries the impact of the Tesla brand name.  

Need to add this to the Delusional posts column ??

Well they do have the Shopping Mall sales model so there's that exposure to the masses...that other mainstream car makers don't use because they don't have to.

What about your vaunted Mercedes Benz brand love affair? Y'all split up? ?

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

The Camaro V8 couldn't pass Euro emissions, I think the Corvette was reworked to pass it, but yes, it will only get tougher or ICE powertrains could just be banned in 2035.  It is nice to let the V8 run out it's life cycle, but that isn't the future, so it isn't where companies will put their engineering dollars. 

But I think they can make an electric Corvette that is faster than the V8 Corvette, so I don't see losing the V8 as anything that hurts.  It is just evolution, most family sedans had a 3-3.8 liter V6 15 years ago, now most have a 2 liter 4-cylinder and are faster.  It's just progress.

Ive read somewhere that emission regs will be so tight that NO internal combustion engine will be able to pass it.  No need to ban ICE when they wont be able to pass the regs.  

But this way though, an ICEV could  be driven to race tracks and the like. Its just that ICEVs wont be able to be driven in the urban environment.  Big cities all over the world are seeing that to happen.  

An EV Corvette WILL be faster than a regular V8 Vette.  Corvette engineers will see it through. 

The top of the line Zora is said to be a very powerful hybrid Vette. 1000 horsepower.  800 some odd V8 horsies and 200 some odd EV horsies powering the front wheels making the Vette  AWD.   Scheduled for 2025-2026.   But...THAT could all change.  The Grand Sport was supposed to be coming. The LT2 V8 with wide and aero of the Z06.  Instead...Chevy will do the E-Ray.   A hybrid  with the same amount of the projected Grand Sport horsepower and torque...  So...nothing says to me that in 2025 or 2026 maybe Chevy makes an all electric Zora with 1000 HP and AWD and just ditch the V8 all together...  Or they keep the Zora as a hybrid and Chevy does an all EV Vette supplanting the Zora.  Or...an all EV Vette becomes the C9.  Which I ALSO read somewhere. 

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 But when you use the Mustang name, you position the Mach-E as your top performance EV, now maybe they have a faster version coming, like a Mustang Mach-E Cobra R or Shelby GT, only time will tell.

Well...there IS a faster version coming as the Mustang Mach E GTis due in the coming weeks...if not out already. No tests have been done yet on either a long rang Mach E or the GT. 

But yeah...Cobra, Shelby and Super Snake versions are probably  in the works right about NOW making even FASTER Mach Es... 

Dont forget that a long range Mach E is out due soon in the next couple of weeks....

The Savage Geese video featured the mid level Mach E.  The Model Y was a higher level Model Y.  The Mustang Mach E that  was in the Savage Geese video was pretty spot on where a Model Y was.  Take the lower ranged Model Y and the mid-level Mach E has a longer range.  The long range Mach E might be able to equate the range of the Model Y...tests need to be done...and the GT might be as fast as the top Model Y.  

Any way you slice it...the Mach E EQUALS the Model Y.

The only thing that lets the Mach E down is the charging system...but THAT is more on the push/pull politics of the USofA regarding EVs rather than the Mach E being an inferior product to the Tesla.  And regarding EV charging infrastructure...depending on what reality you choose to believe, that infamous push/pull Im talking about is what is letting EVs down in the US.  Anywhere else in the world, options seem to be the only obstacle. But as options are opening up, EV sales are going up. 

In Europe, ICEV sales were down last year. But BEVs were way way up. Despite a pandemic. And coincidentally, many European manufactures also offered many alternatives to Tesla this past year.  

On 1/16/2021 at 12:03 AM, oldshurst442 said:

Mention Corvette and everybody goes bat shyte crazy.   And you guessed it...BECAUSE ITS A CHEVY...  Proof?  YOU just did exactly that...

Hey @smk4565

Remember when I answered you with this?

Well...it goes both ways, buddy!

Mention Tesla...and some go bat shyte crazy! 

Gives TDS a new meaning, doesnt it?

Tesla Derangement Syndrome

Kinda ironic too if you think about it... 

52 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is probably the coolest, most desired, or hottest brand name in cars.  Tesla is the "it" brand.  They don't even advertise and yet everyone talks about them.  That's what I am comparing, no brand name carries the impact of the Tesla brand name.  

If this was true, Tesla would be selling more EVs in Europe than VW, but then that is not happening yet.

On 1/24/2021 at 11:04 AM, oldshurst442 said:

Emissions standards all over the world after 2030 or 2035 say otherwise for ANY internal combustion  engine. 

Im all for the Corvette to retain its V8 engine as long as its possible. Until its V8 cant pass emissions any longer. If by any chance, ICE engineers can somehow engineer a V8 (not JUST any ICE like a 4 banger, but a V8... Corvette, right?)  to pass the inevitable highly impossible emissions, then Ill be ecstatic about a V8 Corvette in a EV world. But lets not kid ourselves here....  Pie in the sky scenarios aside, I hope we all understand that the world no longer wants the ICE.  I hope we could understand that BEVs are what is next in our future for our personal transportational needs.  Be it in 2035 or 2055....its coming...

Especially when GM has said to have stopped working on new generation internal combustion engines.  

Oh...they will updated this new LT2 in the coming decade, but as is, this engine will never pass the impossibly high emissions to come in 2030 or 2035. And seeing that development money is zero for a next gen Chevy small block, this would be the last gen V8 GM will produce. 

 

CAFE - Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards means that GM can still build V8's that many of their customers still want and buy. It's why they are building BEV's on the GM BEV3 skateboard architecture so they can lower the corporate average within GM. It's why they produce(d) the compliance Volt and current Bolt EV's so we can have sweet Corvette's, Camaro's and Silverado's with a V8.

Cadillac is the only GM brand that has committed to exclusively building BEV's by 2030, and that's a stretch, I think they will find that they will still have to offer ICE models well past that year. The V8 is here (with GM at least) for the next 20 or 25 years because they sell hundreds of thousands every year and that's what the bean counters and stock holders want..new units down the road. They will always build what sells well and many buyers aren't ready to make the move to EV's now, if ever.

I would and have had both an ICE and an EV vehicle at the same time so I'm opened minded, but I also see what the automotive market moves.

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

The top of the line Zora is said to be a very powerful hybrid Vette. 1000 horsepower.  

 

 

Tesla is going to have 1,100+ horsepower this year.   Don't have to wait until 2025-2026.  

What they could do with the C8 s try to cut weight, it would drive up cost, but they could make higher ends more track focused and push the handling and braking capabilities rather than straight line speed.  

1 hour ago, USA-1 said:

 

Need to add this to the Delusional posts column ??

 

Well they do have the Shopping Mall sales model so there's that exposure to the masses...that other mainstream car makers don't use because they don't have to.

What about your vaunted Mercedes Benz brand love affair? Y'all split up? ?

Mercedes is my favorite brand, 7 consecutive Formula 1 championships too.  But Tesla is the brand everyone is chasing.  

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is going to have 1,100+ horsepower this year.   Don't have to wait until 2025-2026.  

What they could do with the C8 s try to cut weight, it would drive up cost, but they could make higher ends more track focused and push the handling and braking capabilities rather than straight line speed.  

I give a less than 25% chance of Tesla Delivering. Their semi and Truck plus the new Plaid power train upgrade to the S and X models will come before a limited production Roadster happens.

Issues with Tesla 3 also are going to hit hard if they do not update to incorporate the Model Y improvements into the 3.

Tesla is as usual years behind delivering Roadster 2.0.

With Rivian, Ford and GM coming on strong, I expect Tesla to take a major hit. Many reviews by Tesla owners who are getting their Mach-E and talking about how much better it is than Tesla. 

Tesla is gonna have major headaches later this year if they do not get their butt in gear to update and have a better quality built auto.

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is going to have 1,100+ horsepower this year.   Don't have to wait until 2025-2026.  

What they could do with the C8 s try to cut weight, it would drive up cost, but they could make higher ends more track focused and push the handling and braking capabilities rather than straight line speed.  

The thing is though, if we wanna praise horsepower...Bugatti has had 1000 horsepower for over a decade.  Bugatti right now has 1500 HP.  On good 'ole ICE. 

On good 'ole ICE, WW2 airplanes have had 1500-2000 HP. 

 But we are on the same page here.  I loved what you said about Tesla's performance numbers are on heavy, family hauling sedans and not super touchy, super expensive, space deficient exotic cars.  THAT is incredible.  And what Tesla could do with their motors, batteries, softwares and everything else Tesla is known for... 

@balthazar once said that, and I really believe in what he said, is that the next big frontier in the EV world WILL be weight. The next EV maker that could get weight down with batteries and the like, WILL win the next EV battle and thus win market share. 

42 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

CAFE - Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards means that GM can still build V8's that many of their customers still want and buy. It's why they are building BEV's on the GM BEV3 skateboard architecture so they can lower the corporate average within GM. It's why they produce(d) the compliance Volt and current Bolt EV's so we can have sweet Corvette's, Camaro's and Silverado's with a V8.

Cadillac is the only GM brand that has committed to exclusively building BEV's by 2030, and that's a stretch, I think they will find that they will still have to offer ICE models well past that year. The V8 is here (with GM at least) for the next 20 or 25 years because they sell hundreds of thousands every year and that's what the bean counters and stock holders want..new units down the road. They will always build what sells well and many buyers aren't ready to make the move to EV's now, if ever.

I would and have had both an ICE and an EV vehicle at the same time so I'm opened minded, but I also see what the automotive market moves.

I think gas engines will be around 15 years at least.  But Europe has stricter emissions standards than the USA, and a lot of countries may also ban sale of ICE cars as early as 2030.  So it is only a matter of time, whether it be 2030 or 2040, electric will eventually take over.  

I also think electric will take over from top down, because the performance of electric will be so much more than gasoline.  The only reason to buy ICE will become cost, on stuff like an Elantra or Corolla, where you can get the car cheap.

1 hour ago, USA-1 said:

CAFE - Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards means that GM can still build V8's that many of their customers still want and buy. It's why they are building BEV's on the GM BEV3 skateboard architecture so they can lower the corporate average within GM. It's why they produce(d) the compliance Volt and current Bolt EV's so we can have sweet Corvette's, Camaro's and Silverado's with a V8.

Cadillac is the only GM brand that has committed to exclusively building BEV's by 2030, and that's a stretch, I think they will find that they will still have to offer ICE models well past that year. The V8 is here (with GM at least) for the next 20 or 25 years because they sell hundreds of thousands every year and that's what the bean counters and stock holders want..new units down the road. They will always build what sells well and many buyers aren't ready to make the move to EV's now, if ever.

I would and have had both an ICE and an EV vehicle at the same time so I'm opened minded, but I also see what the automotive market moves.

Valid points, but I do think as people see more EV options, drive them and depending on where you live, I see the V8 being enthusiast more than anything in about 15 years.

42 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think gas engines will be around 15 years at least.  But Europe has stricter emissions standards than the USA, and a lot of countries may also ban sale of ICE cars as early as 2030.  So it is only a matter of time, whether it be 2030 or 2040, electric will eventually take over.  

I also think electric will take over from top down, because the performance of electric will be so much more than gasoline.  The only reason to buy ICE will become cost, on stuff like an Elantra or Corolla, where you can get the car cheap.

I am speaking on the U.S.A. where live with cheap gasoline (at least until the current Admins. dire energy regulations jack prices up again). Europe has their own problems like $5/gal. fuel, that's the main reason their EV sales are through the roof there.

EV's do have the low end torque and get off the line quickly, but ICE cars the Chevrolet Corvette C8 500 hp 6.2L V8 is also very quick at 2.95 sec. 0-60 mph and still gets 27 mpg hwy.

EV's main downfalls are up front cost and excess weight from the battery packs, Tesla's with 300+ mi. range are hogs at 5k to 6k lb. curb weight for most of their models.

29 minutes ago, David said:

Valid points, but I do think as people see more EV options, drive them and depending on where you live, I see the V8 being enthusiast more than anything in about 15 years.

EV's are a hoot to drive, in fact mine used to still make me smile every time I mashed the pedal with that sudden rush of torque and the G forces that push you back in the seat that really made it feel like a roller coaster ride even after having it for 3 years, but it's just such a quiet really strange sensation not hearing a thundering LS V8 under the hood with that much pull off the line.  Nothing can replace that awesome burbling idle or near redline sound of the SBC V8 or a Ferrari V12, not even a digital engine sound fed inside through the speakers can emulate it. 

42 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

I am speaking on the U.S.A. where live with cheap gasoline (at least until the current Admins. dire energy regulations jack prices up again). Europe has their own problems like $5/gal. fuel, that's the main reason their EV sales are through the roof there.

EV's do have the low end torque and get off the line quickly, but ICE cars the Chevrolet Corvette C8 500 hp 6.2L V8 is also very quick at 2.95 sec. 0-60 mph and still gets 27 mpg hwy.

EV's main downfalls are up front cost and excess weight from the battery packs, Tesla's with 300+ mi. range are hogs at 5k to 6k lb. curb weight for most of their models.

Car companies design cars (and powertrains) for world use though, some of these car companies are operating in over 100 countries, so they have to take into account a global view.  Granted, they might be able to sell a V8 model of something in the USA where gas is cheap, and the same car with a turbo 4 in China where these is displacement tax.  

The Corvette is fast, but a Model S Performance can do 0-60 in 2.4 seconds and get 104 mpg-equivalent.  And it is a full size sedan, and there is a higher performance model coming later this year.  The V8 or even V12 can't win a performance argument anymore.  You can argue V8's are relatively cheap, and have a good performance per dollar attribute, that is the biggest thing V8's have going for them while EV's are still expensive.

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Car companies design cars (and powertrains) for world use though, some of these car companies are operating in over 100 countries, so they have to take into account a global view.  Granted, they might be able to sell a V8 model of something in the USA where gas is cheap, and the same car with a turbo 4 in China where these is displacement tax.  

The Corvette is fast, but a Model S Performance can do 0-60 in 2.4 seconds and get 104 mpg-equivalent.  And it is a full size sedan, and there is a higher performance model coming later this year.  The V8 or even V12 can't win a performance argument anymore.  You can argue V8's are relatively cheap, and have a good performance per dollar attribute, that is the biggest thing V8's have going for them while EV's are still expensive.

The C8 Corvette will have limited availability outside of the U.S., I believe AUS with a right hand drive model coming and parts of EMEIA because it's so sought after. It will definitely have different powertrain layouts overseas as it will here as well with the Z06 possibly having a Hybrid drivetrain option and Zora being a 1,000 hp Hybrid-Hypercar. What I'm saying is GM understands that one reason people buy a Corvette is for the sound of the engine and exhaust, just like your AMG models.  

It's never going to take away from the fact that the Model S is more of a hog at 5,000 lbs. than even the porky Dodge Challenger Hellcat at 4,300 lbs. You talk about the Model S Performance version, but everybody knows it's not a track car in any way and it will never corner like the 3,400 lb. C8 Corvette. Performance version for Tesla just means more weight with dual and now triple motors and more battery packs to keep a palatable range with the extra motors.

 I've sat in the Model S and Model 3 and I'm just not impressed, materials are cheap and the fit and finish are horrid for $60-$140k cars. Their QC suffers in order to get units out the door. They are constantly behind and I believe still lose money on every car, which sucks. We need them to be a competitive U.S. company and stick around as competition is a good thing. I really think Cadillac BEV's are going to show Tesla a thing or two about fit and finish in the next few years as they roll out.

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

I'm hearing the same thing, that they're still backlogged with 2020 base C8 orders. 18 mo. wait if you ordered one today. Thanks Ronavirus you b@stard...

9 hours ago, USA-1 said:

 

I'm hearing the same thing, that they're still backlogged with 2020 base C8 orders. 18 mo. wait if you ordered one today. Thanks Ronavirus you b@stard...

 

That tidbit of news is bitter sweet.  Backlogged with regular Stingray orders just shows how popular the C8 is and will continue to be.  

But...the Z06 halo car is eagerly awaited by most enthusiasts (even enthusiasts that are not Corvette people) JUST to see what the car can do.  

What is mental with the C8 is that with ONLY (less than) 500 horsepower, the performance times are those of vehicles that have 50-60-70% MORE power. Electric or gasoline...

The track performances of the regular Z51 Stingray is so close to sports cars that are dedicated track cars.  

Patience is a virtue as they say. 

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Right, Ford could do lots of things, they will need an EV cheaper than the Mach-E that can start under $30k at some point.  And they can do mid-size and larger SUVs that aren't performance oriented.

Literally EVERYBODY needs one of these. 

13 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The only thing that lets the Mach E down is the charging system...but THAT is more on the push/pull politics of the USofA regarding EVs rather than the Mach E being an inferior product to the Tesla. 

I assume you're talking infrastructure here because they both can charge at a rate of 150kw.

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

 

I assume you're talking infrastructure here because they both can charge at a rate of 150kw.

yes

What fault is it of the engineering of FoMoCo and its Mach E if the infrastructure is not well kept?

It becomes a PROBLEM for EVs if the infrastructure sucks, but its NOT an inherent  EV problem.  

I found out though, that EV haterz will use ANYTHING to detract the use of EVs ANY which way they can to SLUR EVs...  

PS: Tesla was smart to build its OWN infrastructure though as to NOT have ANY 3rd party phoque ups wrecking the image of EVs... such as this...

20 hours ago, USA-1 said:

The C8 Corvette will have limited availability outside of the U.S., I believe AUS with a right hand drive model coming and parts of EMEIA because it's so sought after. It will definitely have different powertrain layouts overseas as it will here as well with the Z06 possibly having a Hybrid drivetrain option and Zora being a 1,000 hp Hybrid-Hypercar. What I'm saying is GM understands that one reason people buy a Corvette is for the sound of the engine and exhaust, just like your AMG models.  

It's never going to take away from the fact that the Model S is more of a hog at 5,000 lbs. than even the porky Dodge Challenger Hellcat at 4,300 lbs. You talk about the Model S Performance version, but everybody knows it's not a track car in any way and it will never corner like the 3,400 lb. C8 Corvette. Performance version for Tesla just means more weight with dual and now triple motors and more battery packs to keep a palatable range with the extra motors.

 I've sat in the Model S and Model 3 and I'm just not impressed, materials are cheap and the fit and finish are horrid for $60-$140k cars. Their QC suffers in order to get units out the door. They are constantly behind and I believe still lose money on every car, which sucks. We need them to be a competitive U.S. company and stick around as competition is a good thing. I really think Cadillac BEV's are going to show Tesla a thing or two about fit and finish in the next few years as they roll out.

I'm hearing the same thing, that they're still backlogged with 2020 base C8 orders. 18 mo. wait if you ordered one today. Thanks Ronavirus you b@stard...

 

Exhaust note is part of the appeal, but even AMG knows their longer term future is electric and their short term future is hybrids.  

I expect the Model S Plaid will be faster around the Nurburgring than the C8, the Panamera and AMG GT already are faster than the C8, and the Model S Plaid should be faster than a Panamera.  Now the Z06 may beat if, it they get enough grip, power and aero working the right way and that would be a more fair comparison as far as price goes.

Agreed that Tesla has quality issues, but they keep selling.  And I expect Tesla quality will improve over time, just as their capacity improves over time.  Someone may teach Tesla about quality, but I don't know if Cadillac is going to be that brand.  I suspect Cadillac trying to take on Tesla will be more of a struggle than when Cadillac tried to take on the Germans the past 15 years and that basically went no where.  

11 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

That tidbit of news is bitter sweet.  Backlogged with regular Stingray orders just shows how popular the C8 is and will continue to be.  

But...the Z06 halo car is eagerly awaited by most enthusiasts (even enthusiasts that are not Corvette people) JUST to see what the car can do.  

What is mental with the C8 is that with ONLY (less than) 500 horsepower, the performance times are those of vehicles that have 50-60-70% MORE power. Electric or gasoline...

The track performances of the regular Z51 Stingray is so close to sports cars that are dedicated track cars.  

Patience is a virtue as they say. 

There are tons of sports cars, super cars, hyper cars, track cars, etc on sale now with loads of capability.  This is a narrow niche of buyers, yet there are probably dozens of options.  I feel like there is more choice than there is buyer pool, as 2 door cars are like 1% of sales.  

Also the Z51 Stingray has a 7:30 Nurburgring time, there are several cars running in the 6:40's, so the higher power Vettes have a lot of ground to make up.  Enthusiasts have plenty to pick from, they don't have to wait for a Z06 or Zora, there is fast stuff for sale right now.

How many hyper car owners take their car to a actual road course?
Probably less that 1/10th of 1%. They spend their lives snoozing in garages.

2019 Tesla Model X P100D Ludicrious Mode : 1/4 mile in 11.3 secs, plus 1 hour to fully charge & warm batteries. Total 1/4-mile time : 216,011.3 seconds.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Exhaust note is part of the appeal, but even AMG knows their longer term future is electric and their short term future is hybrids.  

 

I expect the Model S Plaid will be faster around the Nurburgring than the C8, the Panamera and AMG GT already are faster than the C8, and the Model S Plaid should be faster than a Panamera.  Now the Z06 may beat if, it they get enough grip, power and aero working the right way and that would be a more fair comparison as far as price goes.

 

Agreed that Tesla has quality issues, but they keep selling.  And I expect Tesla quality will improve over time, just as their capacity improves over time.  Someone may teach Tesla about quality, but I don't know if Cadillac is going to be that brand.  I suspect Cadillac trying to take on Tesla will be more of a struggle than when Cadillac tried to take on the Germans the past 15 years and that basically went no where.  

I highly doubt that the HEAVY Model S Plaid will be faster than the C8 Chevy Corvette around "The Ring" and it definitely won't be faster than the upcoming C8 Z06.

Cadillac's have far better fit and finish than Tesla, I've owned two Cadillac's and was looking at the Model S in 2014 at the same time, no comparison inside or out. 

Cadillac has always taken on the German's and have bettered them in many ways. If you have not driven a Cadillac sedan in the last 13 years, and I suspect that you haven't, then your point is irrelevant.

16 minutes ago, balthazar said:

2019 Tesla Model X P100D Ludicrious Mode : 1/4 mile in 11.3 secs, plus 1 hour to fully charge & warm batteries. Total 1/4-mile time : 216,011.3 seconds.

 

'Merica!! ?????????

6 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

I highly doubt that the HEAVY Model S Plaid will be faster than the C8 Chevy Corvette around "The Ring" and it definitely won't be faster than the upcoming C8 Z06.

 

Cadillac's have far better fit and finish than Tesla, I've owned two Cadillac's and was looking at the Model S in 2014 at the same time, no comparison inside or out. 

Cadillac has always taken on the German's and have bettered them in many ways. If you have not driven a Cadillac sedan in the last 13 years, and I suspect that you haven't, then your point is irrelevant.

Unofficial times of times of the Model S Plaid at 7:13, so if that holds it will be faster than the C8 Z51 by a lot, and on par with the C7 Z06.  I'd imagine a C8 Z06 with enough track focused upgrades will beat 7:13.  But is Cadillac going to make a sedan that can do a track times of a C8 Z06 to top where Tesla is at?   Tesla is throwing down some pretty big performance numbers, and that is with sedans and SUVs what other car company is going to make SUVs (the most popular body style) that has performance of top level sports cars.  Really only AMG is making an consistent attempt across the line,  VW group with the Urus and RS Q8 and BMW has X3 and X5 M's but no X7 M.

Cadillac I think is selling less cars now than they were in 2005, so that attempt to take on the Germans was a bust.  I have driven the first 2 generation CTS's and the final generation STS but I haven't driven a Cadillac is about 8 years since I bought my car.  I've sat in them at auto shows, the interiors are sub par and Cadillac gives me no reason to even waste time test driving one. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

But is Cadillac going to make a sedan that can do a track times of a C8 Z06 to top where Tesla is at?

1/1000th of 1%.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Unofficial times of times of the Model S Plaid at 7:13, so if that holds it will be faster than the C8 Z51 by a lot, and on par with the C7 Z06.  I'd imagine a C8 Z06 with enough track focused upgrades will beat 7:13.  But is Cadillac going to make a sedan that can do a track times of a C8 Z06 to top where Tesla is at?   Tesla is throwing down some pretty big performance numbers, and that is with sedans and SUVs what other car company is going to make SUVs (the most popular body style) that has performance of top level sports cars.  Really only AMG is making an consistent attempt across the line,  VW group with the Urus and RS Q8 and BMW has X3 and X5 M's but no X7 M.

Cadillac I think is selling less cars now than they were in 2005, so that attempt to take on the Germans was a bust.  I have driven the first 2 generation CTS's and the final generation STS but I haven't driven a Cadillac is about 8 years since I bought my car.  I've sat in them at auto shows, the interiors are sub par and Cadillac gives me no reason to even waste time test driving one. 

So if you're talking top performance model of Model S with Plaid lets talk about the top C7 with the ZR1 with a Ring time of 7:04 so the C8 Z06 will meet or beat that and Zora will crush that time being a 1,000 hp AWD Hybrid Hyper-car. And yes there is word of a Cadillac Halo car that could be based on the C8 or the BEV skateboard architecture. Tesla does have pretty good performance numbers and I'm not taking that away from them like your close minded comments toward GM, like usual. Cadillac Lyriq BEV SUV is coming and it will have a performance version as well.

Fewer vehicles sold does not mean less quality or less competitive vehicles, it's usually marketing issues, which Cadillac is known for and it's not a bust because they're still here and very comparable and competitive to the German and Japanese rivals in many ways. 2005 was before the new gen cars, 2008 was the first year of the gen. 2 CTS which was the start of the increase in quality and fit and finish and GM also started offering the high performance V Series that were now actually competitive. It was an increase in quality and fit and finish from the Gen 2 to Gen 3 CTS and it's even better with the CT4 and CT5. The interiors are not sub par in the Gen. 3 CTS or the new CT4 and CT5's. CT5-V Blackwing is going to be on a whole nother level of performance on the track and on the road. 

16 hours ago, USA-1 said:

So if you're talking top performance model of Model S with Plaid lets talk about the top C7 with the ZR1 with a Ring time of 7:04 so the C8 Z06 will meet or beat that and Zora will crush that time being a 1,000 hp AWD Hybrid Hyper-car. And yes there is word of a Cadillac Halo car that could be based on the C8 or the BEV skateboard architecture. Tesla does have pretty good performance numbers and I'm not taking that away from them like your close minded comments toward GM, like usual. Cadillac Lyriq BEV SUV is coming and it will have a performance version as well.

Fewer vehicles sold does not mean less quality or less competitive vehicles, it's usually marketing issues, which Cadillac is known for and it's not a bust because they're still here and very comparable and competitive to the German and Japanese rivals in many ways. 2005 was before the new gen cars, 2008 was the first year of the gen. 2 CTS which was the start of the increase in quality and fit and finish and GM also started offering the high performance V Series that were now actually competitive. It was an increase in quality and fit and finish from the Gen 2 to Gen 3 CTS and it's even better with the CT4 and CT5. The interiors are not sub par in the Gen. 3 CTS or the new CT4 and CT5's. CT5-V Blackwing is going to be on a whole nother level of performance on the track and on the road. 

But the Model S is a sedan, my point is Tesla's CT5 sized sedan can put up performance times like a Corvette on a track, any sedan running sub 7:30 on the Nurburgring is insane because the Tesla, Panamera and AMG GT 4-door are the only 3 that can do it.  And Tesla has a sports car coming but we can't compare it and C8 Zora because we don't know what they'll actually be.

The Corvette (C8 and C7 Z06, ZR1) Nurburgring times are just in a sea of other super cars, as I said there are several in the 6:40's on sale now and dozens in the low 7's with the Corvette.  There might be 25 coupes running sub 7:30 Nurburgring, but 2-door cars are 1% of global volume.  

SUV is where the volume is, the people that can make performance SUVs and performance sedan to some degree are going to get the sales because that is where the bulk of the market is.  As far as performance minded products go, whoever is first to make a crossover with RAV4 size, performance, quality and price that is electric will sell them like hot cakes.

Cadillac competing with Germans is a false myth, all those V-series cars were often slower than the German counterpart, and Cadillac had 2-3 V-series cars at a time at most, where were the V-series SUVs?  Where was the V12 sedan to compete with the 760Li and S65?   And that turned out to be a bad direction for Cadillac  as a brand to go anyway, because Cadillac buyers want something like the Escalade, a big, comfy seat, comfy ride vehicle for cruising down highways, not a small interior corner carver like a 3-series.  So Cadillac lost customers because they built a German knock off instead of building a better version of "American luxury."  I actually think Cadillac is beyond saving, baring a massive amount of investment (say $100 billion of over 10 years)  and GM won't invest that much in them.

• The V-Series was a fantastic move for Cadillac- it cemented the brand in with the M and AMG cars, for as long as they're all produced. V-Series earned tremendous respect from people who never, ever looked at Cadillac before.
• A V-Series is as much of a "german knock-off" as a 7-series or s-class (or any of their respective SUVs) is an 'American knock-off'.
• Nurburgring track times are irrelevant other than 3 handfuls of enthusiast arguing on the internet. Track times don't sell a single vehicle that wouldn't be bought otherwise.

• Just to clarify, my comment was regarding worrying about a road course lap time, not that Cadillac wouldn't do it.

21 hours ago, balthazar said:

How many hyper car owners take their car to a actual road course?
Probably less that 1/10th of 1%.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette (C8 and C7 Z06, ZR1) Nurburgring times are just in a sea of other super cars, as I said there are several in the 6:40's on sale now and dozens in the low 7's with the Corvette.  There might be 25 coupes running sub 7:30 Nurburgring, but 2-door cars are 1% of global volume. 

Cadillac competing with Germans is a false myth, all those V-series cars were often slower than the German counterpart, and Cadillac had 2-3 V-series cars at a time at most, where were the V-series SUVs? 

I actually think Cadillac is beyond saving, baring a massive amount of investment (say $100 billion of over 10 years)  and GM won't invest that much in them.

Just wait for the C8 Z06 and Zora then get back to us on Nurburgring times. Like balthy stated above the Nurburgring is all about bragging rights and that's about it.

So you're admitting that Cadillac's are true competitors to the Germans? Got it. V-Series are legitimately very good cars in chassis and performance metrics and there will be an Escalade V model coming with the new 2021 SUV and the Lyriq BEV CUV is said to have a V Series model once they launch as well.  

Cadillac is not beyond saving and they aren't bleeding nearly as bad as MB is right now. MB has dumped model after model because they finally figured out they had far too many in the lineup and quality was taking a back seat to mass manufacturing. MB quality has suffered quite a bit in the last 10 years, I know this because family friends have 2 of them a 2012 and 2016 and it's been pretty bad, in the shop a lot for electrical gremlins and check engine lights. Only MB car that hasn't suffered as much in the quality dept. is the S Class, but the price is also over $200k for a loaded model now.  

19 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Just wait for the C8 Z06 and Zora then get back to us on Nurburgring times. Like balthy stated above the Nurburgring is all about bragging rights and that's about it.

 

So you're admitting that Cadillac's are true competitors to the Germans? Got it. V-Series are legitimately very good cars in chassis and performance metrics and there will be an Escalade V model coming with the new 2021 SUV and the Lyriq BEV CUV is said to have a V Series model once they launch as well.  

 

Cadillac is not beyond saving and they aren't bleeding nearly as bad as MB is right now. MB has dumped model after model because they finally figured out they had far too many in the lineup and quality was taking a back seat to mass manufacturing. MB quality has suffered quite a bit in the last 10 years, I know this because family friends have 2 of them a 2012 and 2016 and it's been pretty bad, in the shop a lot for electrical gremlins and check engine lights. Only MB car that hasn't suffered as much in the quality dept. is the S Class, but the price is also over $200k for a loaded model now.  

The Z06 will probably run like 7:04 (assuming 10 seconds better than the C7) and we'll see what the Zora does.  Mercedes holds the Nurburgring record right now, they'll hold it for sure once the AMG One set a lap time this year.  The Corvette is going to beat them, and I know Cadillac will never build a car faster than a Corvette.

Cadillac has 2 V-series cars, which right now are both under 400 hp, and the "Blackwings" are limited to like 250 each of the CT4 and CT5 or something, so they must not expect much demand.  CTS-V was a fast car, but the M5 and E63 were faster, and Mercedes has cars faster than the E63.  Mercedes has over 15 cars with 500 hp.  Cadillac isn't committed to performance because only 2 of their 6 models have performance variants and they are the 2 slowest sellers they have.  Why doesn't Cadillac make a coupe, a convertible, a performance SUV?  They don't even have a full line of cars, yet alone a full line of performance cars.

There should have been an Escalade-V 10 years ago, and they should make a V-series of every electric car they sell.  Also Cadillac interiors need to get better, they dropped the price by about $10k going from CTS to CT5, that helps align the interior with the price you pay.  But Cadillac has often fell on their face with interiors on the more expensive cars, even going back the the XLR.

Because Cadillac is not carrying an entire corporation on it's back, like the hatchback ~ cargo van brand mercedes. They don't WANT or NEED an "entire" line of 84 models.

Cadillac now has the best chassis dynamics, suspensions & steering. Things no one EVER thought possible 20 years ago; the corner stone on what BMW built everything one at one time. That's amazing progress by a brand you erroneously keep thinking is 'failing' all the time.

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Z06 will probably run like 7:04 (assuming 10 seconds better than the C7) and we'll see what the Zora does.  Mercedes holds the Nurburgring record right now, they'll hold it for sure once the AMG One set a lap time this year.  The Corvette is going to beat them, and I know Cadillac will never build a car faster than a Corvette.

Cadillac has 2 V-series cars, which right now are both under 400 hp, and the "Blackwings" are limited to like 250 each of the CT4 and CT5 or something, so they must not expect much demand.  CTS-V was a fast car, but the M5 and E63 were faster, and Mercedes has cars faster than the E63.  Mercedes has over 15 cars with 500 hp.  Cadillac isn't committed to performance because only 2 of their 6 models have performance variants and they are the 2 slowest sellers they have.  Why doesn't Cadillac make a coupe, a convertible, a performance SUV?  They don't even have a full line of cars, yet alone a full line of performance cars.

There should have been an Escalade-V 10 years ago, and they should make a V-series of every electric car they sell.  Also Cadillac interiors need to get better, they dropped the price by about $10k going from CTS to CT5, that helps align the interior with the price you pay.  But Cadillac has often fell on their face with interiors on the more expensive cars, even going back the the XLR.

You sat in an entirely different car at the auto show than the Cadillac's I have driven. The outstanding interior in the CT6 Premium Luxury, Platinum, and Blackwing display what Cadillac can do and still does with the new Escalade, XT4 - XT6, CT4 and CT5 interiors. Go sit in and maybe even drive a new 2021 Escalade, your head will explode from the amazement.

GM has a full line of cars, trucks and SUV's with premium high-end models. Cadillac doesn't need to or want to have a full line. GM has Cadillac positioned to be a premium boutique style division like they've been in the past.

16 hours ago, balthazar said:

Because Cadillac is not carrying an entire corporation on it's back, like the hatchback ~ cargo van brand mercedes. They don't WANT or NEED an "entire" line of 84 models.

Cadillac now has the best chassis dynamics, suspensions & steering. Things no one EVER thought possible 20 years ago; the corner stone on what BMW built everything one at one time. That's amazing progress by a brand you erroneously keep thinking is 'failing' all the time.

They don’t need to carry the corporation but a luxury brand with no coupe, no convertible?  They have 4 SUVs that could be enough but BMW has 7 with an 8th on the way.  And where is the performance SUV?  The top powertrain in an XT4 is 235 hp, you can get more than that in a Ford Escape.  
 

I am not saying Cadillac needs 15 models but how about 7-8?  How about V-series on everything or a “Brougham” trim for a higher trim interior like how GMC has Denali and Buick has Avenir.  And if Cadillac is only going to do 6 models they should be outstanding, 4 of the 6 are basically re-imagined Chevy SUVs with Chevrolet powertrains.

15 hours ago, USA-1 said:

You sat in an entirely different car at the auto show than the Cadillac's I have driven. The outstanding interior in the CT6 Premium Luxury, Platinum, and Blackwing display what Cadillac can do and still does with the new Escalade, XT4 - XT6, CT4 and CT5 interiors. Go sit in and maybe even drive a new 2021 Escalade, your head will explode from the amazement.

GM has a full line of cars, trucks and SUV's with premium high-end models. Cadillac doesn't need to or want to have a full line. GM has Cadillac positioned to be a premium boutique style division like they've been in the past.

CT5 interior is fine for a $36k start price, no complaints there, CTS interior wasn’t up to par for a $46k start price.  The XT6 interior is about the same as a Kia Telluride, the XT6 is overpriced for what it is.  
 

Problem is Cadillac isn’t a premium boutique brand, they are the American Acura.  They aren’t the American Bentley as they should aim to be.

• Coupes are dead, followed closely by convertibles. I’d like to see both, but you’d just complain they were ‘slow-selling’.
• You want “7-8” models and Cadillac has 6, plus you’ve likely read on the upcoming ones (we don’t know if they are additions or replacements). For an exclusive low-volume brand, they’re right where you want them to be.
• Cadillac had multiple trims levels for every model. Research.
• For the umpteenth time, GM engines are produced by GM Powertrain, not the Divisions. Since 1982 or so.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

• Coupes are dead, followed closely by convertibles. I’d like to see both, but you’d just complain they were ‘slow-selling’.
• You want “7-8” models and Cadillac has 6, plus you’ve likely read on the upcoming ones (we don’t know if they are additions or replacements). For an exclusive low-volume brand, they’re right where you want them to be.
• Cadillac had multiple trims levels for every model. Research.
• For the umpteenth time, GM engines are produced by GM Powertrain, not the Divisions. Since 1982 or so.

Bentley is exclusive, Cadillac isn’t.  Coupes are slow sellers, I can understand not making one although if there were to be a halo sports car I think it would help the cause. 
 

Yes produced by GM powertrain just like they have global platforms as all car companies do, but their isn’t enough space between Chevy, Buick, GMC and Cadillac.  Too much price overlap too much powertrain and equipment overlap, etc.
 

The fact that GM would consider calling a Tesla fighter SUV a Corvette tells me what their confidence in the Cadilllac brand name is.