Rumorpile: Chevrolet Ponders An Expansion of the Corvette

• Bentley is niche, Cadillac is exclusive.
• Cadillac halo sports car is in development as we type.
• Cadillac “Tesla fighters” are coming, as you are aware (Lyriq & Celestiq), as are MB’s ‘Tesla fighters’. Gm is not considering a Corvette-oriented SUV- that’s rumor mill fodder.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

CT5 interior is fine for a $36k start price, no complaints there, CTS interior wasn’t up to par for a $46k start price.  The XT6 interior is about the same as a Kia Telluride, the XT6 is overpriced for what it is.  
 

Problem is Cadillac isn’t a premium boutique brand, they are the American Acura.  They aren’t the American Bentley as they should aim to be.

KIA? That's F'n laughable. Not even close to the XT6 in quality and fit and finish. Can you get real wood and real carbon fiber or real aluminum interior trim in the Kia? No, not even a sq. cm of it. Even the Cadillac leather is several notches above anything Kia has on the road, I believe it's called Pleather in the Kia.

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges.

I stated GM has Cadillac "positioned to be" a premium boutique luxury division, not that it currently is today, but they're on the right path.

Acura? Seriously? Also laughable. Acura doesn't have RWD and RWD based AWD sedans like Cadillac does, all Acura's are FWD and FWD based AWD cars. No comparison to Cadillac CT4 and CT5 handling and performance, just add V Series and it's game over for Acura, with no V8 even available in their lineup. 

And why would GM want Cadillac to be a massively over priced British car with horrible reliability ratings that's owned by a huge German car company also with reliability issues?!

I noticed you had no reply to my comment about the new 2021 Escalade...MB wishes they had a real Escalade BOF competitor.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

• Bentley is niche, Cadillac is exclusive.
• Cadillac halo sports car is in development as we type.
• Cadillac “Tesla fighters” are coming, as you are aware (Lyriq & Celestiq), as are MB’s ‘Tesla fighters’. Gm is not considering a Corvette-oriented SUV- that’s rumor mill fodder.

Alfa Romeo is really exclusive, exclusive isn't a good thing necessarily.  

I am curious what Cadillac, Mercedes and others come up with as Tesla fighters.  But traditional auto makers tend to want to make EV's look futuristic and funky, and then they don't sell because they don't look like a regular car (Nissan Leaf for example).  And I think they'll be behind on power and range, as we have seen with the Taycan and even the EQS the rumor is 460 hp in the base model, but a base model Tesla Model S has 670 hp.  

1 hour ago, USA-1 said:

KIA? That's F'n laughable. Not even close to the XT6 in quality and fit and finish. Can you get real wood and real carbon fiber or real aluminum interior trim in the Kia? No, not even a sq. cm of it. Even the Cadillac leather is several notches above anything Kia has on the road, I believe it's called Pleather in the Kia.

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges.

I stated GM has Cadillac "positioned to be" a premium boutique luxury division, not that it currently is today, but they're on the right path.

Acura? Seriously? Also laughable. Acura doesn't have RWD and RWD based AWD sedans like Cadillac does, all Acura's are FWD and FWD based AWD cars. No comparison to Cadillac CT4 and CT5 handling and performance, just add V Series and it's game over for Acura, with no V8 even available in their lineup. 

And why would GM want Cadillac to be a massively over priced British car with horrible reliability ratings that's owned by a huge German car company also with reliability issues?!

I noticed you had no reply to my comment about the new 2021 Escalade...MB wishes they had a real Escalade BOF competitor.

 

"Positioned to be". ?  The Cadillac brand is 110 years old, they aren't positioned yet?

What are XT4, XT5, XT6?  Front drive turbo 4 or V6 crossovers, same as Acura RDX, Lexus RX350 and Acura MDX.  Those are the top 3 selling Cadillacs too.  Why aren't those SUVs rear drive with handling and V8s or hybrid turbo V6?

Also the CT5 is Cadillac's top sedan and it starts at $36k, that is Acura TLX pricing for a midsize sedan, I suppose you could compare it to an Infiniti Q60 also for the same drive wheels to be more accurate.   But Cadillac doesn't have any high end sedans/coupes/convertibles like all the other big luxury makers do, nothing in the $100k+ range like Tesla, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, etc.

Mercedes makes 2 SUVs that are better than the 2021 Escalade, the G-wagon is more luxurious and far superior off road, and the GLS is faster, higher performance in GLS580 or AMG trims and way more luxurious in Maybach trim.   The 2021 Escalade starts at $76,195 and the Maybach GLS600 starts at $160,500.  Where is the $160,000 Cadillac?  

• Alfa is also a niche brand. XT4 outsold the entire brand. Also; it's a 'regular look' car and still no one wants one.

• Model S sales peaked in 2018. The 2nd 'refresh' just announced is so mild no one will know anything was done to it other than 2 new wheels. But being 'in the thick' of BE performance/range is what you need to be competitive; if you have to be #1 on the spec sheet, mercedes will NEVER 'compete' with Tesla.

A given vehicle isn't a sales leader because of how far it goes or how fast it goes 0-60. It's the aggregate of the entire vehicle; you always try to boil it down to 1 factor.

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

The Cadillac brand is 110 years old, they aren't positioned yet?

 

Benz still building the patentwagon in 2021?

Markets, approaches, stradegies and products change to meet the same shifting factors in consumers. Look at mercedes' roots, horribly spartan, underpowered, archaic sedans... why did they reinvent themselves as a 'German Cadillac' the way they did?

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

"Positioned to be". ?  The Cadillac brand is 110 years old, they aren't positioned yet?

What are XT4, XT5, XT6?  Front drive turbo 4 or V6 crossovers, same as Acura RDX, Lexus RX350 and Acura MDX.  Those are the top 3 selling Cadillacs too.  Why aren't those SUVs rear drive with handling and V8s or hybrid turbo V6?

Also the CT5 is Cadillac's top sedan and it starts at $36k, that is Acura TLX pricing for a midsize sedan, I suppose you could compare it to an Infiniti Q60 also for the same drive wheels to be more accurate.   But Cadillac doesn't have any high end sedans/coupes/convertibles like all the other big luxury makers do, nothing in the $100k+ range like Tesla, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, etc.

Mercedes makes 2 SUVs that are better than the 2021 Escalade, the G-wagon is more luxurious and far superior off road, and the GLS is faster, higher performance in GLS580 or AMG trims and way more luxurious in Maybach trim.   The 2021 Escalade starts at $76,195 and the Maybach GLS600 starts at $160,500.  Where is the $160,000 Cadillac?  

You know what I meant by "positioned to be". Changes are constantly made in the automotive world. Look at MB for example, up and down the gauntlet with changes.

Good luck with that massively overpriced box on wheels G wagon that handles horribly on and off road. 

It's not that they can't make a $100k+ vehicle CT6 was just that with the Platinum and Blackwing and now the new Escalade Platinum. It's GM top brass cutting good cars that were selling and you know it.

"Mercedes makes 2 SUV's better than the 2021 Escalade" but the Escalade just launched so you have no data to support that statement just your biased MB viewpoint.

Wow now you're going to try to compare a $110k fully loaded fullsize BOF 2021 Escalade Platinum to a sub-framed massively overpriced $160k Maybach GLS600 that happens to be the ugliest SUV on sale right now with a smorgasbord waterfall grille and tacky mesh inlays below? Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

News Flash: new $100k+ Cadillac Flagship vehicle is on the way.

49 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Good luck with that massively overpriced box on wheels G wagon that handles horribly on and off road. 

It's not that they can't make a $100k+ vehicle CT6 was just that with the Platinum and Blackwing and now the new Escalade Platinum. It's GM top brass cutting good cars that were selling and you know it.

"Mercedes makes 2 SUV's better than the 2021 Escalade" but the Escalade just launched so you have no data to support that statement just your biased MB viewpoint.

Wow now you're going to try to compare a $110k fully loaded fullsize BOF 2021 Escalade Platinum to a sub-framed massively overpriced $160k Maybach GLS600 that happens to be the ugliest SUV on sale right now with a smorgasbord waterfall grille and tacky mesh inlays below? Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

News Flash: new $100k+ Cadillac Flagship vehicle is on the way.

 

 

The G-wagen sells well, probably the #1 selling vehicle in the world with a starting price over $125k. 

The CT6-V was the same price as a base V6 S-class and they killed it off because Cadillac was still not competitive in the segment.  Just like the XLR, STS-V, ELR bombed.  If any of these top end Cadillacs (outside of Escalade) had any success they'd still be here, GM top brass isn't going to just cut profitable, well selling products.  We'll see what $100k Cadillac comes next, but they haven't had a good track record.

And sure I will compare a Maybach GLS (which goes up to $190k) to an Escalade, because you said Mercedes wishes they had an Escalade competitor, when in reality they have an SUV that costs up to double the price of an Escalade, and sells better globally than the Escalade.  

All these SUVs cost more than an Escalade:

Mercedes GLS, Mercedes G-class, BMW X7 (BMW X8 coming soon), Audi SQ8/RS Q8, Lamborghini Urus, Porsche Cayenne, Bentley Bentayga, Rolls-Royce Cullinan, Aston Martin DBX, Maserati Levante, Tesla Model X, Range Rover.  

That's over a dozen SUVs on market that are positioned above the Escalade and Bentley is working on another, Ferrari working on one as well.  Cadillac's problem is they see the Escalade as the top, when it should be more the mid point and clearly they can go above it, because the market is flooded with SUVs costing 2-3 times more than the Escalade.

• '21 Escalade can hit $125K via the current build & price. I've done it. $190K is not "double" $125K.
• Mercedes doesn't even build the g-wagoneer; it's farmed out. Their flagship vehicle and someone else builds it.
• Escalade-V, CT4 and CT5 Blackwing (Feb 1), CT8 / Celestiq, all in the pipeline.

41 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The G-wagen sells well, probably the #1 selling vehicle in the world with a starting price over $125k. 

The CT6-V was the same price as a base V6 S-class and they killed it off because Cadillac was still not competitive in the segment.  Just like the XLR, STS-V, ELR bombed.  If any of these top end Cadillacs (outside of Escalade) had any success they'd still be here, GM top brass isn't going to just cut profitable, well selling products.  We'll see what $100k Cadillac comes next, but they haven't had a good track record.

And sure I will compare a Maybach GLS (which goes up to $190k) to an Escalade, because you said Mercedes wishes they had an Escalade competitor, when in reality they have an SUV that costs up to double the price of an Escalade, and sells better globally than the Escalade.  

All these SUVs cost more than an Escalade:

Mercedes GLS, Mercedes G-class, BMW X7 (BMW X8 coming soon), Audi SQ8/RS Q8, Lamborghini Urus, Porsche Cayenne, Bentley Bentayga, Rolls-Royce Cullinan, Aston Martin DBX, Maserati Levante, Tesla Model X, Range Rover.  

That's over a dozen SUVs on market that are positioned above the Escalade and Bentley is working on another, Ferrari working on one as well.  Cadillac's problem is they see the Escalade as the top, when it should be more the mid point and clearly they can go above it, because the market is flooded with SUVs costing 2-3 times more than the Escalade.

They never even gave CT6 a chance! So yes, they do cut very well built cars that aren't part of the company's future plans and they were selling very well and very competitive, so do your research.

Cadillac dealer buddy of mine said CT6-V Blackwings and most CT6's were selling before they even hit the ground at the dealerships!

Price isn't a comparable metric anyway. With what you get from the Escalade it should cost $150k, but GM chooses to go after a larger crowd and they build and sell probably as many Escalade's as all the exotic SUV's you mentioned combined. 

That Maybach GLS is not a direct competitor to Escalade nice try. How much can it tow? How many can it comfortably seat? Guarantee the Escalade can tow more and it fits more people much more comfortably as well, so you get much more than you pay for. Escalade has an 8,100 lb. tow capacity and 1,640 payload cap.  Oh right Mercedes doesn't recommend towing with GLS600 and probably doesn't even have an available hitch. 

Escalade not the top Cadillac the FLAGSHIP Celestiq is on the way...

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

• Model S sales peaked in 2018. The 2nd 'refresh' just announced is so mild no one will know anything was done to it other than 2 new wheels. But being 'in the thick' of BE performance/range is what you need to be competitive; if you have to be #1 on the spec sheet, mercedes will NEVER 'compete' with Tesla.

A given vehicle isn't a sales leader because of how far it goes or how fast it goes 0-60. It's the aggregate of the entire vehicle; you always try to boil it down to 1 factor.

Benz still building the patentwagon in 2021?

Markets, approaches, stradegies and products change to meet the same shifting factors in consumers. Look at mercedes' roots, horribly spartan, underpowered, archaic sedans... why did they reinvent themselves as a 'German Cadillac' the way they did?

Mercedes built the fastest car in the world for the 1900-1909 decade, they had the ultra lux 540k roadster driven by royalty in the 30's, the 770k limos used by the Nazis, the 1954 300SL, the 600 Grosser which cost double a Rolls-Royce in 1963, the 450SEL 6.9 in the 1970s (the most powerful, fastest sedan at the time) the V12 W140 in the 90s, the 604 hp S65 in the early 2000s when a Corvette ZO6 had 405 hp.  Mercedes has long had performance cars, they took place in the first automobile race in 1894, they set the land speed record in 1904 at 97 mph and again in 1911 at 141 mph.  They have 125 years of racing history, no brand can say that.

As far as competing with Tesla, I think Mercedes will have a hard time.  I think Mercedes can outdo Tesla on interiors and build quality all day long, but will be tough to beat Tesla on range and performance and possibly technology and self driving.  Mercedes has some advantages like manufacturing capacity, but they are starting from well behind as far as EV's go.  

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

a luxury brand with no coupe, no convertible?

Daimler is killing the s-class coupe & convertible, the e-class coupe & convertible, the C-class coupe & convertible, the CLS coupe, one of the GT models, and rumors have floated there will be more. [~ MB dealer webinar via Business Insider, July 2020]
 

Huh.

8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

• '21 Escalade can hit $125K via the current build & price. I've done it. $190K is not "double" $125K.
• Mercedes doesn't even build the g-wagoneer; it's farmed out. Their flagship vehicle and someone else builds it.
• Escalade-V, CT4 and CT5 Blackwing (Feb 1), CT8 / Celestiq, all in the pipeline.

G-wagon is hand built, that is they they farm it out.  They can't run it down their line in Stuttgart.  And the S-class is really their flagship car, it has all their best tech and they just built the most advanced car factory in the world to build it.  And the S-class goes to the highest price aside from the Black Series cars or AMG One that are specialty projects.  

Escalade-V, CT4, CT5 Blackwing is all good, but I think they can do more.  The CT5 Blackwing will have 650 hp, but it will still have an interior out of a $40k car.  And the other problem I think the CT5 Blackwing will run into is it will probably be $80-90k, a base Tesla Model S has 670 hp and will be faster without even going to the Plaid. 

They need a more luxurious sedan than the CT5.   Maybe they will hit a home run with Celestiq and solve that problem, too early to tell on that.  

And where are XT4, XT5, XT6 V-series?  Unless they are just putting all R&D into a future line of electric SUVs and plan to kill those 3 off by 2025 and don't want to waste money on them, in which case I'd agree with their strategy.  

22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes built...

But those were 'some of the slowest selling models'.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Daimler is killing the s-class coupe & convertible, the e-class coupe & convertible, the C-class coupe & convertible, the CLS coupe, one of the GT models, and rumors have floated there will be more. [~ MB dealer webinar via Business Insider, July 2020]
 

Huh.

S-class coupe/convertible going away because they have a new AMG designed SL taking over that whole upper end segment.   The GT coupe/convertible are staying for the next generation.  And the market for $150k convertibles is small.

CLS is going to die and maybe AMG GT 4-door because they have the EQE and EQS, so 2 sedans die, 2 new sedans take their place.  

Nothing confirmed on the C and E coupe/convertible.  I suspect they keep one or the other, they won't kill both.  There was also rumor of merging them into a CLK type car that would be a coupe/convertible in that middle range which would make sense, because they have to have a 2-door option that isn't a $100k car like the SL.

8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

But those were 'some of the slowest selling models'.

But they built them.  They have always had high performance cars going back to 1902.  That is why Mercedes is the best luxury brand, they have a reasonably priced A220 or GLB250 and they have $225k S-classes and $300k AMG sports cars and they have every body style, sedan, coupe convertible, wagon, hatchback, crossover coupe, SUV, 4-door coupe, etc.  

mercedes also produced thousands of sub-100-hp sedans with no power amenities, didn't get around to A/C until circa 1969, offered decades of s-class cars 15 years behind the industry leading edge, killed off their most iconic FI car after only 3 years to build a 4-banger slushbox, floated on the profits of tons of trucks and vans, built a number of failed cheap cars that tried to coast in on the badge, built a flop of a minvan, canceled what would have been a flop of a small pickup they developed with outside engineering help, built a flop of a maybach (Daimler lost 300K euros on everyone built, but kept building them for 10 years),  teased dozens & dozens of designs they never produced, cut their gullwing revival off at the knees, copied Cadillac mercilessly while trying to cultivate a true luxury sedan (they just did it again with their mega glass screen (which actually is just a pane over 3 different screens), got caught doing emissions cheating and fined $2.2 billion, adopted/promoted the false narrative that Benz "invented" the automobile, nursing tons of vehicle problems, failures to report recalls, is hopelessly behind on the BE front......

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The G-wagen sells well, probably the #1 selling vehicle in the world with a starting price over $125k. 

The CT6-V was the same price as a base V6 S-class and they killed it off because Cadillac was still not competitive in the segment.  Just like the XLR, STS-V, ELR bombed.  If any of these top end Cadillacs (outside of Escalade) had any success they'd still be here, GM top brass isn't going to just cut profitable, well selling products.  We'll see what $100k Cadillac comes next, but they haven't had a good track record.

And sure I will compare a Maybach GLS (which goes up to $190k) to an Escalade, because you said Mercedes wishes they had an Escalade competitor, when in reality they have an SUV that costs up to double the price of an Escalade, and sells better globally than the Escalade.  

All these SUVs cost more than an Escalade:

Mercedes GLS, Mercedes G-class, BMW X7 (BMW X8 coming soon), Audi SQ8/RS Q8, Lamborghini Urus, Porsche Cayenne, Bentley Bentayga, Rolls-Royce Cullinan, Aston Martin DBX, Maserati Levante, Tesla Model X, Range Rover.  

That's over a dozen SUVs on market that are positioned above the Escalade and Bentley is working on another, Ferrari working on one as well.  Cadillac's problem is they see the Escalade as the top, when it should be more the mid point and clearly they can go above it, because the market is flooded with SUVs costing 2-3 times more than the Escalade.

Yeah, its a good thing Benz never has to cancel cars buy the dozens. Oh wait. They’re doing that now. See Balths above response about all the cancelled Benz models.

19 hours ago, USA-1 said:

 

That Maybach GLS is not a direct competitor to Escalade nice try. How much can it tow? How many can it comfortably seat? Guarantee the Escalade can tow more and it fits more people much more comfortably as well, so you get much more than you pay for. Escalade has an 8,100 lb. tow capacity and 1,640 payload cap.  Oh right Mercedes doesn't recommend towing with GLS600 and probably doesn't even have an available hitch. 

 

Escalade not the top Cadillac the FLAGSHIP Celestiq is on the way...

 

 

All GLS's can tow 7,700 lbs (if you get the optional class IV hitch which is like $500 or something).  And the Maybach GLS seats 4. And you are right, it isn't comparable to an Escalade.  Escalade buyers have to drive themselves, Maybach owners pay someone to drive for them.  

We'll see what the final Celestiq is in final version and what they price it at.  The Mercedes EQS has a larger screen than the Celestiq has, but I think these huge screens are gimmicks, and screens are basically cheap.  They could put a 36 inch touch screen in a Kia Forte and probably only raise the cost of the car by $500.  So everyone will have screens, what isn't cheap is actual leather, wood, metal, suspension systems, powertrains, etc.  

On 1/25/2021 at 11:12 PM, USA-1 said:

 

I'm hearing the same thing, that they're still backlogged with 2020 base C8 orders. 18 mo. wait if you ordered one today. Thanks Ronavirus you b@stard...

 

The Horsepower Obsessed video I posted got blocked on the site I think?

Anyway...Ill be posting his latest one. Hopefully this video wont get blocked.  He has heard rumours that the Z06 will be POBISSIBLY REVEALED in July. THAT doesnt mean the Z06 will be available for sale. THAT rumour could very well be true that the Z06 will be availbale for sale in 2023. But its POSSIBLE that Chevy will REVEAL the Z06 in July! 

Its not much...but its something!   

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

All GLS's can tow 7,700 lbs (if you get the optional class IV hitch which is like $500 or something).  And the Maybach GLS seats 4. And you are right, it isn't comparable to an Escalade.  Escalade buyers have to drive themselves, Maybach owners pay someone to drive for them.  

They could put a 36 inch touch screen in a Kia Forte and probably only raise the cost of the car by $500.  So everyone will have screens, what isn't cheap is actual leather, wood, metal, suspension systems, powertrains, etc.  

So NOW you agree that Maybach GLS doesn't compare to the Escalade when you brought it into the post earlier?!?? Or did you just want to sound like a typical conceited Mercedes owner? Will you ever make up your mind? ?

10000/1 in sales Cadillac Escalade to Mayback GLS for a reason and it's not just the cost difference, it's practical usable space and more for your money, something that most reasonable people can agree on.

smk4565

And NOW you also agree with what I stated earlier when you quite comically compared a Kia to a Cadillac and I brought up the high grade leather, real wood, real carbon fiber and real aluminum trim pieces that a Cadillac has that the Kia doesn't.?? Not to mention one is a Luxury make and the other is an Econobox.

I think you've once again dug that hole deep enough...

USA-1